Episode 11 - Anne Hamilton Byrne and The Family Cult

0:16 Welcome back to Crime Besties. We're here for episode 11 today.

0:21 Hi, Emma. Hi Meg.

0:22 I am so excited to be back and we've got a bit of a special,

0:27 bit of a special thing going on today because we've got

0:29 ourselves some new equipment we have.

0:32 Real podcasters now with our boom.

0:35 And everything and we've got some special mics.

0:37 We know our sound quality hasn't been great leading up to this.

0:40 So we decided to make a bit of an investment and, and really,

0:45 you know, go all in and here we are.

0:47 So we really hope that you can notice the difference in all of

0:51 this. And I guess this kind of leads

0:53 me saying a very, very big thank you to my husband Peter for

0:56 helping us sort. Yeah, our now official producer,

1:00 Peter. Thank you very much, Peter.

1:02 We really appreciate all the work that he has put in that we

1:05 do finding the equipment and rectifying all the, the sound

1:11 issues that we've been having. And it's been, oh, I mean it's

1:14 been a task and 1/2. It has been, but I think we've

1:17 got it sorted now, finally so. Thank goodness he's so beefy.

1:20 Yeah, Yep. Just ask him.

1:22 Anyway, thank you very much, Peter.

1:24 We really, really appreciate it. Does that count that he's now

1:27 appeared on the podcast. Yeah, you know what?

1:31 Let's call it, Yeah. I mean, he's desperate to be on.

1:34 I thought our kids had desperations to be in our

1:35 podcast. Well, here we go.

1:37 Yeah, Peter. Yeah.

1:38 Well, truly. Well, welcome Peter officially

1:41 to the TCB family. He loves it, he does.

1:45 He does anything. We're not getting a pain.

1:48 Yeah. Anything where he can look at

1:50 tech and buy things he's more than happy to jump on boards.

1:53 Yep. Yeah, we're just helping him

1:54 out, Really. Yeah.

1:55 Totally, totally thanks to. US.

1:58 Yeah, you're welcome, Peter. You're welcome.

2:01 What have you been up to this week?

2:03 Yeah, not much, just, well, it's been busy, busy, busy.

2:07 Yes and yeah. I it's, I can't even think what

2:11 I've been doing this week. I'm not being that busy.

2:12 I think my brain has fallen out to be.

2:13 Really honest, I've been like super duper getting into

2:18 America's Sweethearts, the documentary on Netflix about the

2:21 Dallas Cowboys. Cheerleaders binge that bad over

2:24 like the school holidays when Yeah, yeah, it's it's an easy

2:27 watch. Like it's very easy watch, but

2:29 not in some ways too. It's pretty.

2:32 It's intense, it's intense. I just tried to do a high kick

2:35 before before we started recording.

2:36 I couldn't get it about halfway. Pull a muscle on all three.

2:40 Exactly. I'm like, oh God, I'm not going

2:41 to be able to walk for a week. But we were talking about how

2:44 they do these like jump splits and they all like they fuck up

2:48 their hips and they can't. Like it's not a you're not.

2:51 There's no longevity in being a cheerleader at that level is.

2:54 There cannot be. I mean, who?

2:57 I know it's, they've been doing that for a long time.

2:59 Yeah. Who was the crazy ass bitch who

3:02 decided? To do back in the 70s or

3:04 something insane, absolutely insane.

3:07 They're incredible athletes. So they're so fit.

3:10 And some of the wording around the way they talk about it

3:12 though on the documentary, it's, I mean, there's, it's really

3:16 kind of problematic. They talk about the girls who

3:18 are like too skinny. They say, oh, they're not

3:21 fuelling their bodies well enough.

3:24 Or if they're like, you know, maybe slightly, slightly, you

3:27 know, they might have put on some weight or.

3:29 Something slightly slightly. Yeah, but even then, I mean, you

3:32 know, lovely. Yeah.

3:33 They they talk about them over fueling themselves.

3:36 I'm like, Oh my God. So it is.

3:38 It's pretty toxic. Watch it if you're if you're

3:40 filling up for a light watch that you don't want to then

3:43 delve too much deeper into. Yeah, yeah, but you did, didn't

3:46 you? I just couldn't help myself.

3:48 And then I listen. There's actually a podcast about

3:50 them as well. Seriously, I didn't know that.

3:52 And I think the podcast is actually also called America's

3:55 Sweethearts. And the journalist who who

3:58 created the podcast did it during COVID.

4:01 And so she was interviewing, I mean, I guess the cheerleaders

4:04 all had heaps of time. Yeah.

4:06 And she was interviewing them for the podcast and.

4:09 Oh yeah, it's, yeah, there's some problematic, there's some

4:11 deep seated issues within that organization, but.

4:14 Those, all those have been exploited.

4:16 Totally. They get, they get paid like

4:17 $15,000 a season or something it seems.

4:20 Actually now I think it's like 40,000.

4:22 But even still, yeah, the amount of work they put into it there,

4:25 it means that hourly rate isn't even minimum wage.

4:28 Well, I mean a lot of them will work at work like full time jobs

4:31 and then go there in the evening to train, working themselves to

4:34 the bone and then fit the physical like what it takes out

4:36 of your body. Yeah, I mean, let's be really

4:38 honest, they are putting their body is through equal amounts of

4:41 what the players of the game of what is it?

4:44 What's it called gridiron in America?

4:46 Is that right? Sorry, not American.

4:48 Football, American football, those play, they're putting

4:50 their bodies through the same amount as the males in this

4:53 scenario. And those the males are being

4:54 paid are hell of a lot more than 40 grand a year.

4:57 Yeah, and even the mascot gets paid 60 grand A.

5:00 Year Are you serious? I'm.

5:01 Serious. Oh, look, we could talk about

5:03 this for hours, but yeah, OK, another episode.

5:06 Yeah, maybe another episode, but anyway, what are we talking

5:09 about today? That's criminal.

5:11 I know I can't get over that 60 grand a year and they're getting

5:16 paid 40. Yeah, sorry.

5:17 I'm. Yeah, I'm, I dare say it's a

5:19 it's a man and that. Is a man.

5:20 Yep. Sorry, I can't get past Meg.

5:25 Meg. He's not gonna be able to record

5:26 the rest of the episode. I'm gonna help with that

5:28 revelation. Yeah.

5:32 Yeah. Don't get into it anymore then

5:33 if that's angered you, there's way more so.

5:37 Right. OK.

5:38 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's move on.

5:40 Yeah, moving on to today's actual crime or recognized

5:44 crime, we are talking today about the family, which is a

5:47 cult that was created by Anne Hamilton Byrne.

5:51 I think let's just put a little disclaimer in here as well that

5:54 we will be discussing child abuse today.

5:57 So if that's too heavy for you, too much for you probably, you

6:00 know, skip this one and and go to another episode.

6:04 So Anne Hamilton Byrne, what an interesting character.

6:08 Oh yeah. What an interesting woman.

6:10 Yeah, she believed she was the reincarnation of Christ in

6:15 female form. She was actually born Evelyn

6:19 Grace Victoria Edwards on the 30th of December in 1921.

6:24 Thinking about that era, I mean 1921, that was a very, very,

6:28 very, very, very long time ago in terms of her life experience

6:33 and what has happened and changed over her life.

6:35 There's, you know, there's a giant, giant breadth and scope

6:39 there. Yeah.

6:40 But in all, in amongst all of that change and all of that

6:43 innovation and everything that was going on, she decided to

6:46 create the family. It was also known as the Great

6:50 White Brotherhood of Initiates and Masters.

6:53 That's an interesting one. Oh yeah.

6:56 And it all happened in, in and around Victoria, Australia.

7:01 Very close to us. Well, one of the compounds was

7:04 in Alinda in Victoria, which is in the Dandenong Ranges, and

7:11 that's only like what, 10, not even 10 or 15 KS up the road

7:14 from us. Yeah, yeah, very close.

7:16 Yeah. We go up there quite regularly

7:18 to be honest. Yeah.

7:20 Great. Oh, God, What am I trying to

7:21 say? What do they call that?

7:23 Scones and tea. Like when you go for.

7:25 What's that called? Like Devonshire.

7:27 Devonshire tea. That's what I was trying to say.

7:29 Miss Marples. Miss Marples?

7:30 Yeah. That way, yeah.

7:32 Yeah, that's what. Sassafras, Fenny Creek, Linda,

7:34 all that area and which is, yeah, where they basically

7:36 operated out. It was their HQ.

7:38 Yep, Yep. And then from there, there was

7:40 another compound out at Eilden, which again, is only like an

7:44 hour's drive from here and a place where many families that,

7:48 I mean, we, I've certainly been there many times, but many

7:50 families go out there and from this area go boating and out in

7:53 the lake at Lake Eilden. But there was, and they had a

7:56 compound out there where they ran a major part of their cult.

8:01 Yeah, they called it a cult, but it is.

8:03 It was a cult. Totally a cult.

8:04 Yeah. Yeah.

8:05 I don't think that's in dispute, is it?

8:07 I know they didn't call it a cult, but what?

8:09 No, it is. It's a cold.

8:11 Yeah, yeah, for sure. Those people in the cult might

8:15 not call it a cult. Everyone outside of the cult.

8:17 Called cult. Cult.

8:18 I think that's pretty standard of cult.

8:19 So Anne was born in Sale. She was the eldest of seven

8:23 children and her father's name was Ralph Edwards.

8:26 He was born in Melbourne and he met Anne's mother.

8:30 Anne's mother was born in London and came over.

8:32 I think she was a young teenager When she arrived in Australia.

8:37 Her name was Florence Hoyle. It turned out Florence was a

8:42 paranoid schizophrenic. She suffered from

8:45 hallucinations, delusions, and she heard voices.

8:49 She. Believed she was clairvoyant.

8:50 She did, yeah. She after an incident where she

8:53 set fire to her own hair in the street, she was committed to a

8:59 mental hospital for the final 27 years of her life.

9:03 Yeah, this happened. So she was committed in 1941.

9:07 She died committed, and there's not, I guess not much more known

9:13 about her aside from the fact that she was institutionalized

9:17 and there was not really any hope of her being able to

9:21 assimilate back into. Especially back in those days, I

9:24 mean there was no treatment or sort of they, they were just

9:26 crazy and put in asylums and. Put in a mental hospital and

9:29 yeah, they were called back then and she went to several, like

9:33 she was moved around the state. So in terms of Anne around that

9:37 time, I think Anne was, was she 18 when that happened?

9:40 I think, yeah, roughly about that age, 'cause I know she,

9:42 yeah, yeah. So she was, yeah, an adult, I

9:45 guess, when she, when she was finally diagnosed as

9:48 schizophrenia and put into the young mental institution.

9:51 Yeah. But she'd, she'd actually spent

9:53 some time in an orphanage as well in during her upbringing

9:58 because her father, so Anne being the oldest of these seven

10:02 children, her father would actually take these periods of

10:06 absence and go off and do God only knows what I mean.

10:10 I think he was in the army, wasn't he?

10:13 Oh, I don't know about him. Not sure.

10:15 I just know that he would. Yeah.

10:16 Disappear. Yeah, he'd he'd be sort of in

10:19 and out of the family's life. He or Anne described him as a

10:23 spiritualist, which I don't really know what the definition

10:27 of a spiritualist is aside from like that.

10:29 Is that just a spiritual person or is that a profession?

10:34 Yeah, I'm not sure. Yeah.

10:36 What particular spirit? Yeah, I don't.

10:39 Know anyway, so he he was not all that present.

10:44 I think if you think about the time frame, maybe that makes a

10:47 little bit of sense in that back then men weren't really the ones

10:50 to bring up families. It sounds horrible when you

10:54 think about it in the 2024 context, but I think the

10:56 expectations of men were far different to what we now expect

11:01 of dads and men in society. Totally, Yeah.

11:06 Evelyn, a lot of her time growing up in orphanages, she

11:11 attended Sunshine Primary School.

11:14 So that's again, it's just over the other side of the city.

11:17 So it's not that far away really and sort of moved into our neck

11:22 of the woods, you know, later on in her life.

11:25 There's not a lot known about her childhood really, aside from

11:29 the fact that her dad was in and out of her life.

11:31 Her mum was not necessarily capable of looking after the

11:34 children, hence the the stints they were spent in an orphanage.

11:39 There's not a huge amount of information really about her

11:44 upbringing. We can infer that being that

11:47 she, the being that she was in the situation that she was, that

11:51 things were, you know, not great for her.

11:53 There was certainly no stability there for her.

11:55 It must have been an awful way to be brought up.

11:58 Yeah, oh, there's definitely, it's got to have had impact on

12:01 her. But unfortunately, I guess

12:03 that's where my empathy for her well.

12:07 There comes a time where you're an adult and you can make

12:10 decisions, right? There are plenty of people

12:12 who've been in orphanages who haven't, you know, perpetrated

12:15 the things she has. Yeah.

12:17 Crime. Yeah, sure.

12:18 Yeah, definitely. Now she's she's, yeah, her, her.

12:22 It's kind of impacted her into her adulthood as the person that

12:25 she was going to become. But there's next level and she's

12:30 got to. Yeah, there's got to be a level

12:31 of responsibility for that. You've got to know this was not

12:34 OK. That's it.

12:35 So Anne married her first husband named Lionel Harris in

12:39 1941. I've actually just made note

12:42 that she was aged 20 then, so that was the same year that her

12:46 mum was first committed. They met working on a fruit farm

12:50 in Sydney. He was in the army at the time.

12:54 Was he when they met or? Yeah, he was.

12:56 He was in the army and then it was a very he was he the one

13:00 that disappeared when he was, yes, yeah.

13:03 So he was in the Army and I think, 'cause we've been around

13:05 about obviously 1940s, it would have been during the War world.

13:08 War 2. Pretty sure he served in the in

13:10 the war. He did, but then he went AWOL

13:12 from there and came like, and came home to Anne.

13:15 Yeah. And so he wasn't, he did end up

13:18 going back into the armed forces, but then he was

13:23 discharged honourably. But he did do some odd stuff and

13:27 leave to come back to Anna. I really I read all that and

13:29 listened to stuff about that and the is this the start of her

13:32 manipulation over someone? That is exactly what I thought

13:35 as well, because so for somebody, I mean, I guess during

13:38 a World War, there was obviously conscription.

13:40 So whether he wanted to be in the army or not, I don't know.

13:44 I haven't looked into whether or not.

13:45 There was a choice. Yeah, that's it.

13:48 But it was eight months that he went AWOL for.

13:53 Yeah. To live with Anne and to spend

13:56 this time with her, I don't know.

13:59 It's just a really curious thing to me.

14:00 Yeah. And I wondered like, because

14:01 abandonment would be an issue for her, I guess in terms of

14:04 like her father abandoned the abandoned them.

14:06 Her mother was really not available to her.

14:08 Yeah, moving from foster home, foster home, that sort of thing

14:11 over or orphanages. I guess it would have been an

14:14 issue for her having people abandoned her and him going off

14:16 to war. Could have been.

14:18 Tired of her. And.

14:19 Yeah, well, they they went on to have a daughter.

14:22 Yeah, one biological daughter. Her name was Judith.

14:26 She then changed her name later on in life to Natasha.

14:31 There is not a lot of information about her, and quite

14:34 rightly so. Like she's an, you know, a much

14:37 much. Oh.

14:37 Yeah, I don't know how much she partaked in the.

14:40 She lived in the compound. She did, eventually.

14:44 Yeah, and she also, I mean, as Anne changed her name later in

14:48 life, her surnames not just through marriage, but by choice,

14:52 and her daughter did the same. So she was known eventually as

14:55 Natasha Hamilton Byrne. Mm Hmm.

14:57 Which I, I find that very interesting.

14:58 Why she would lose her father's surname when you know she her

15:02 father passed away? There was nothing ill toward of

15:05 her father. Why would you then not want his

15:07 surname I? Don't know.

15:08 That's interesting. Further manipulation or I guess

15:11 if you've grown up with a mother like Anne.

15:13 And we'll get to why why we think this way really soon.

15:16 But if you've grown up with a mother like that, you probably

15:19 almost would take the path of least resistance and be like,

15:22 yeah, you know what? I'll take your surname if that's

15:25 going to make life easier for me.

15:27 But. From what I can find out, she

15:29 ended up moving over to the UK and has resided there since.

15:32 So she's been very removed from Australia and the cult in that

15:36 sense physically being here at all.

15:38 So yeah, interesting. I mean, she was well and truly

15:41 and a young adult even once the when the cult formed.

15:45 So this was much later in her life.

15:46 She wasn't a young child being manipulated into a cold, no, an

15:49 elder enough to make her own decisions.

15:51 That's right. And I think fairly soon after

15:53 everything sort of started really getting quite into it,

15:56 she did leave the country. So yeah.

15:58 Yeah, look, if she's still alive today, and I don't know whether

16:01 she is or not, she'd be in her probably early 80s.

16:05 Whoa, that blows my mind. It does because I mean, I was

16:08 just looking at because we and only died fairly recently.

16:12 Yeah, in 19/20/19. Sorry, she was aged 97 when she

16:16 passed. She was 97.

16:17 Yeah. God, some people live a long

16:19 time, don't they? And.

16:20 And it's always deserved to. Yeah, that's it.

16:23 Anyway, I guess Anne and Lionel wanted to expand their family

16:28 and in the very early 1950s they were in the process of of

16:33 adopting a baby boy from Barnardo's.

16:38 They were on. Well, I think Lionel was

16:40 actually on his way to sign adoption papers when he was

16:43 involved in a fatal car accident, so obviously it killed

16:48 him. This was in Bathurst on the 8th

16:51 of January in 1955 S Given Lionel had died and was no

16:59 longer eligible to adopt adopt the baby.

17:04 Yeah. So she was being like what 35

17:07 ish at this at that stage. So I guess in though that day

17:11 and age that wasn't would have been older for her to have

17:13 carried a baby herself. But I don't think there was

17:15 anything actually stopping her biologically to have any more

17:17 children at that point or prior. Like she obviously carried 1.

17:21 Yeah, not that I've read. I know she was incredibly vain

17:25 and appearance meant a lot to her.

17:28 I don't know whether that had any impact on whether or not she

17:30 wanted to carry more children, I'm not sure.

17:32 Interestingly, like, yeah, OK. But yeah, I mean, and I wonder

17:36 whether her need to adopt wanting to thinking to adopt

17:39 fairly altruistic reasoning and that, you know, because she had

17:42 spent time in orphanages and wanted to give other children

17:44 opportunities to have loving homes.

17:47 I mean, I hope that would be of motivation to do that.

17:51 But then when we look at what happened later on, yeah.

17:54 I just got a question like, do you think the death of Lionel is

17:57 when she sort of turned to religion a little bit?

18:01 Well, she turned to yoga I think first, OK, which I know I

18:04 definitely at his death she was it was like given some advice to

18:07 her by someone was saying, hey, there's this new age thing to

18:10 have a go out here in Australia because very new here of yoga.

18:14 And so she went and started doing yoga, and there's

18:17 obviously a very spiritual aspect to yoga, and that really

18:21 connected with her in some way. Yeah, I've, I've actually got

18:25 written in my notes that in an interview she stated that the

18:29 yoga brought her community spirituality and a physical

18:34 peace, whatever that means. In 1960, she trained as a

18:38 tantric yoga instructor and women started to really look up

18:42 to her like a guru. She sort of started giving

18:45 relationship advice and these women really sort of followed

18:49 whatever she said, like to the to the NTH degree.

18:53 There were women leaving their husbands on her advice and.

18:57 I think any yoga instructor is supposed to give relationship

18:59 advice. Well, also like, mind your own

19:02 business and jeez, man. On that similar topic though,

19:07 have you ever seen that? There's a documentary on it as

19:09 well of the the guy who brought out like, hot yoga.

19:11 Like what's that called? The the, the Really.

19:13 Yeah. Have you been done that?

19:15 Yeah. Bikram, Bikram.

19:16 Bikram, Yeah. Bikram.

19:17 That's right. It's his name.

19:18 He was problematic. Holy crap.

19:20 Yeah, I have watched a documentary about him.

19:22 I just. Yeah.

19:23 Any of those like super, you know?

19:26 Have you done Bikram Yoga? I have actually.

19:28 Actually really enjoy. It.

19:29 See, I couldn't do it because I've got his heart condition and

19:31 I was in there going, why am I thinking I'm going to die?

19:34 Oh yeah, I'm not supposed to do this stuff because I've got a

19:36 heart condition. My God, Seriously.

19:39 Yeah, I did. I mean, I did it did the whole

19:41 class didn't. I did like it.

19:43 But yeah, my heart was like at about 200 beats per minute.

19:46 And I'm like, I'm a feeling like this.

19:47 What's going on? Yeah, I did it before I had

19:49 kids. I've never done it again since,

19:51 but I loved it when I used to do it.

19:53 Yeah. Yeah, it feels good.

19:54 Yeah. I never, though, was manipulated

19:57 into anything further than attending a Bikram yoga class.

20:00 That was a hard no. It would be up for it it.

20:02 Was bad and oh God Can you imagine?

20:04 It was bad enough. Like the the blokes in those

20:07 Bikram yoga sessions sometimes would be like sweat puffs.

20:10 My mum will kill me. Go a few yoga sessions, you

20:14 know, over the years and like my mum, someone sometimes just come

20:17 with me in that and see someone fucked.

20:19 Always, always. Sure it wasn't you, Mom?

20:22 Yeah, Sorry, Patty. Hey, she's made it onto the

20:27 podcast now, so welcome, Pat. So yeah, she's, she's sort of

20:30 starting already at this point. And.

20:32 And not Pat. Yeah, it's starting to really

20:35 draw people into her, like into her inner sentiment into a

20:39 circle and really starting to manipulate people into really

20:42 believing he was this guru, this somebody to look up too.

20:47 Yeah. The other thing is, at around

20:50 this time she was telling people that she was a physiotherapist

20:53 and a nurse. I didn't know that.

20:55 Yeah, and none of that was true, but she was telling them so that

20:59 she could give them medical advice and advice on injuries

21:02 and, you know, she'd help them. I'm putting air quotes here but

21:06 she would help them cure their injuries.

21:08 Yeah, because that's something she, what she eventually started

21:11 doing too, was like using people who were doctors and nurses who

21:15 would, like, inject people with certain things or find certain,

21:18 like almost convince people of injuries that they had or, or

21:21 illnesses that they had in certain ways.

21:23 And then she'd like, get them to stop doing whatever it was it

21:26 was giving that illness or injury and then tell them that

21:29 she had cure as a miracle worker.

21:31 Yeah. And obviously that's what she

21:34 was, obviously Jesus. Yeah.

21:36 And I guess because of all of these things, her status like

21:39 within these circles was increasing.

21:42 So people were like, Oh my God, she's a miracle worker.

21:44 She she would admire this. She helped me with this.

21:47 And she was really starting to brainwash her, her followers.

21:51 And I guess at this point in time, it was small, small fries.

21:55 But then she met a man by the name of Doctor Rayner Johnson.

22:00 Well, how she met him is so interesting.

22:02 Go get him to that. Yeah, well, so she, I don't know

22:06 what came first in terms of did she spot Rayner first and go I

22:10 need to know him, which I strongly feel it was that way.

22:14 Or did she meet a particular man who opened her eyes up to there

22:18 was this person named Rayner, but basically she wanted to know

22:22 Rayna Johnson. Yeah.

22:23 And who he was. A physicist, yes, who had only

22:27 just arrived in Australia from the UK and been employed at the

22:32 University of Melbourne. Yeah, he was the employed as the

22:34 Master of Queen's College, which was quite a prestigious title

22:38 and an honour. Yep.

22:40 He was a theoretical theoretical physicist, as you said, and he

22:43 was an academic author. He was and he was, well, I mean,

22:46 he was a theoretical physicist and was very heavily into that,

22:50 but he was starting to shift into a different realm really of

22:53 physicists as a physicist, more spiritual, I guess.

22:59 And I would love to know how she, I mean, this day and age,

23:01 like, you know, you can jump on someone's website and find out

23:03 about them. I mean, back in that day and

23:04 age, when, how did she find out about this?

23:07 And. I think she found out about him

23:10 or the way it came about is because I think she actually

23:12 knew people who worked at Melbourne University.

23:15 Already had connections, yes. I think she already had

23:17 connections through people. I mean, by this stage she'd sort

23:20 of started recruiting people from like the judicial, legal,

23:23 medical, educational sectors. Yeah, and kind of tentacles out

23:28 everywhere, wasn't she? She.

23:29 Really. Was she?

23:31 Yeah. Rayna, With Rayna, the way she

23:34 went about it was she actually started sleeping with his

23:36 gardener. Yeah.

23:37 And and was getting the gardener to feed her information.

23:42 She actually used that information to really hook

23:45 Rainer in. She said she knocked on his door

23:49 one night and basically declared herself to him as clairvoyant.

23:54 She said. I know you're going overseas to

23:56 India soon and your wife is going to get very, very sick

24:00 while you're over there. Shock horror.

24:02 Who the fuck? Doesn't get sick when they go to

24:04 a third world country I. Mean what?

24:06 You're gonna get dysentery. What?

24:07 Who? Was Wow.

24:09 Apparently Rayner's wife actually got a really bad case.

24:12 It's just. Really.

24:12 Be So it's in Rayner's eyes. He's like this woman.

24:15 Like she predicted. She knew that I was going

24:17 overseas. How would she have known that?

24:18 I don't know. The garden might have told her.

24:19 And that her, his his wife's gonna get sick in a country that

24:22 what, everyone gets sick. And if they go there when they

24:24 can't live somewhere else. Shouldn't predict shit.

24:27 No, but he was very, very sucked in.

24:30 Very much so. They say that people who become

24:34 a part of a cult are often really intelligent people.

24:39 I. Find that and shocking.

24:40 Well, they, the psychology around it is that being so

24:44 intelligent, they think there's no way that they would fall for

24:47 being in a cult. So they're a lot more easily

24:49 manipulated. It make, I know it's kind of a

24:52 little bit counterintuitive, yeah, isn't it?

24:54 But like the other thing is, do these people not have friends?

24:58 Like if you came to me and went spiritual healer.

25:01 I just imagined me doing. Yeah, yeah, totally.

25:03 I'd like Meg slap some sense into you, please.

25:06 Come on. Did she?

25:07 Do these people have no one around them to go reality?

25:11 Check. Yeah.

25:11 Everyone knew you were going to India.

25:13 Someone would have told her or you know, and everyone gets sick

25:16 when they go there, surely. Let's have a look at this a

25:19 little bit critically. Yeah.

25:21 And as a scientist, that's the way he should have been looking

25:23 at things. You would think so, but he was

25:26 obviously open to this. And, I mean, what does he get

25:31 from it? Like, he's obviously getting

25:32 something from it as well. Well, yeah.

25:35 Was there a sexual element to their relationship?

25:38 Well apparently he was happily married, but I you get the sense

25:42 that there was potentially more to and and her and his

25:45 relationship. Fully get that sense, I reckon.

25:49 I mean, I've got no proof of this, but I I just, I feel like

25:53 there was a lot more because he was.

25:55 So. Into her.

25:56 Yeah, yeah, he was. I mean, he and did end up

25:59 marrying the gardener. Yeah.

26:01 They were only married for a year.

26:02 It was clearly a marriage of convenience in terms of the the

26:05 information she was getting and everything.

26:06 Yes, yeah, it. Didn't, it didn't last, But,

26:09 yeah. But Raynaud certainly stuck

26:10 around for many, many years. Yeah, there was, yeah.

26:12 As we say, there was no official evidence of them having a

26:16 relationship, but. And definitely was able to

26:19 manipulate him and had a lot of power over him.

26:21 Yeah, yeah. Interesting.

26:24 Maybe she had like a magical vagina and he just, like, you

26:28 know, couldn't help it. The cult went on for 60 years.

26:34 If you're still running today, well.

26:35 Really it is. I'm sort of closing it off at

26:39 1993 when, you know, it sort of and to.

26:44 It wasn't even the end, but as you say, it's still going on to

26:47 this day. But realistically, with Anne at

26:49 the helm, yeah. It went on for 60 years.

26:51 Yeah. It's essentially unchecked.

26:53 Like it's a long, long time. Yeah.

26:55 That's 1963 to 1993. They were.

26:59 So they'd recruited all of these nurses, these doctors.

27:03 Politicians. Politicians, they had nurse

27:05 people from like Anset, like the owners of Anset Airlines in

27:08 Australia. They had some really influential

27:10 people. But we is that, you know, they

27:13 have access to things. You had to do what they did like

27:17 and managed to. Yeah.

27:18 Falsify documents. Yeah.

27:20 But then these people were all wealthy, which meant that when

27:25 Anne, being the leader of the cult, took portions of their

27:28 wages, it was a fair bit of money.

27:31 And so she ended up accruing about a wealth of about $50

27:34 million. In the end, she had.

27:36 Properties all over the world. Crazy.

27:39 Yeah, when she was. Cold.

27:41 I'm like, it sounds like good money.

27:42 Actually, maybe we should. Maybe that's not the worst idea

27:44 ever. She was arrested at a property

27:48 in like, upstate New York, which they aren't.

27:50 Which? A large property.

27:52 Massive and all beautiful properties like the property at

27:55 Lake Eldon if you if you do a bit of a Google.

27:59 The five acres, Yeah. And it's.

28:01 Absolutely stunning. Like the property is absolutely

28:05 stunning. Well.

28:06 The children certainly weren't living in.

28:08 Luxury, though, no, they were not.

28:10 They absolutely were not. So the property up in Ilden was

28:13 called Up Top or Kai Lama. If you wanna have a look at it,

28:16 have a look into it and look at photos.

28:18 Yeah. Beautiful parts of the world

28:20 that they owned homes in. Yeah.

28:21 I mean, Ferny Creek, Linda, they're all very beautiful

28:24 spots. Very.

28:25 Yeah, but also secluded in some ways.

28:28 Like they're not the easiest places to get to.

28:29 They're dirt roads. They're very, very forest.

28:33 Forest. Yeah.

28:34 Is she? Yeah, yeah.

28:37 Beautiful places, but hard to get to in lots of ways.

28:39 So because she had access to doctors and whatever she would

28:43 get them to prescribe or not even legally, but obtain LSD and

28:48 they would use the LSD to really on board people and really get

28:54 them to, you know, drink the kool-aid essentially and and

28:57 think that and was Jesus re Incarnate?

29:02 Yeah, they, what they would do is they would give, they would

29:05 inject people with LSD, which has more of an effect on the

29:08 body. When they were coming towards

29:11 the end of their trip, Anne would appear in a white cloak

29:15 with a light behind her and they'd get a bucket of dry ice

29:19 so that they'd be like a bit of smoke coming up.

29:22 And she would come, they would keep them in a dark room while

29:25 they were going through these LSD trips.

29:28 She would come into the room and people, yeah, float and people

29:33 would literally think they were seeing Jesus Christ.

29:36 Yep. Embodied in an Hamilton birth.

29:39 Thing where I get a little bit like that that's not one person

29:42 being able to like you don't it's not one person operating

29:45 all of that like to have the who's going out and buying the

29:47 dry ice who's who's getting that the blowout the smoke blows blow

29:50 the smoke out who's operating all of the machinery right in

29:53 the background yeah there's more than one person on board here

29:56 for this to be a setup that's. And why are they not?

30:00 Why are they not recognizing that and going, oh, this is a

30:03 bit fucked up? Like, if you could actually do

30:05 this for real, why aren't you doing it for real?

30:07 Yeah. Why are we having to drug

30:08 people? But there's no, again, it's

30:11 going back to that critical thinking.

30:12 They're just going along with whatever she says.

30:14 Yeah, doing whatever she says. Things start to turn really

30:18 problematic at this point because they start to acquire.

30:21 I'm going to say acquire, kidnap, whatever, steal, steal

30:25 children. And the way they go about doing

30:27 this, the first child they stole was from a, a woman, a girl

30:33 actually, she was 16 years old at the time named Sarah Moore.

30:37 Her first child, first pregnancy, she was.

30:40 And the girl was Sarah. Yeah, sorry.

30:42 This girl was Sarah. Sorry.

30:43 The baby was Sarah. Sorry.

30:44 You're absolutely right. Yeah.

30:46 The mother was 16. Yes.

30:47 Yeah, she was an unwed mum. She'd been disowned by her

30:52 family. So she was because she was

30:53 pregnant and unwed, the father had fucked off the father of the

30:59 baby and so she's on her own giving birth.

31:03 She's incredibly vulnerable and had recruited doctors and nurses

31:08 at this particular hospital and once she delivered her baby girl

31:14 named Sarah, they tranquilized her or sedated her and stole her

31:22 baby put. A pillow over her head?

31:24 Yep, and it was awful. They literally stole that baby

31:27 off her. And the mum felt like she had no

31:30 recourse. She had nobody to go to.

31:32 She was 16 years old. She's just given birth.

31:35 The nurses and doctors have told her that they've taken the baby

31:38 to a better place and. This would be the right thing

31:41 for you. Yeah.

31:42 And what? Oh my God, I can't even imagine

31:45 how traumatic that would be for that poor young girl.

31:47 No. Awful.

31:49 So Sarah is, I guess, the first stolen child to join into the

31:54 cult. Yeah.

31:55 And all of her. So she's got all of her doctors

31:57 and nurses in the hospital doing that part of it and taking the

31:59 baby physically. And then she's got under her,

32:02 she's got lawyers, etcetera to then do the documentation to go

32:05 with it. Yeah.

32:06 And make sure that then it's all looking like it's legal.

32:10 Yeah, none of it was actually legal, obviously.

32:12 No, but they, she had documentation, falsified

32:15 documentation for them. So Sarah didn't actually know

32:20 that Anne wasn't her biological mum until she was a teenager.

32:24 Can you imagine finding out that information as a teen, like when

32:27 you're already undergoing an identity crisis and, you know,

32:30 wanting to figure out who you are and how you fit into the

32:33 world? Yeah.

32:33 And she's now, you know, having to also come to terms with the

32:39 fact that the person she thought was her biological mum is not.

32:43 In some ways, I'd be, like, stoked, though, to find out that

32:46 that then the and the perpetrator of much abuse wasn't

32:49 my mother. Yeah.

32:50 But at the same time, well, who the hell is?

32:52 And what the hell happened to her?

32:53 And how why did she let me go? Why?

32:55 You know, the questions in your brain would just be rolling

32:58 around. Absolutely.

32:59 But she, I mean, Anne was so convincing.

33:01 We're not convincing really of this, but she when a new baby

33:05 would be, you know, coming, she would dress and fake her

33:08 pregnancy basically and wear a fake belly so that the the

33:13 children, all, you know, very young and impressionable, would

33:16 see Anne with her belly and everything and believe that

33:19 there was a baby coming another and she was having and another

33:22 sibling was on the way. And the next thing a baby would

33:24 appear, you know, so she's had a baby.

33:26 And in actual fact, they'd just stolen another one.

33:30 So yeah, there was two ways of them gaining their children.

33:33 Obviously there was her stealing them from the hospitals from

33:35 young unwed mothers very illegally and have falsifying

33:39 documents. But there was also people within

33:42 the cult that she would convince to hand their children over to

33:46 her. And then these they were all

33:47 raised as if they were and children and that she had

33:51 birthed them. She would she in one

33:53 documentary, I think it was a non documentary.

33:55 I mean, just in 60 minutes interview where she said that

33:58 she had birthed eight or nine children, I'd lost count or

34:01 something. I think she almost said like

34:03 eight or nine, which is completely false.

34:04 She had one biological child and that and she was not one of

34:07 these ones that was at up top. Yeah.

34:11 That, that blows my mind. Oh yeah, I've just sort of lost

34:14 count of how many biological children I've had because I

34:16 stole so many as well. So but she so she ended up with

34:19 there was 14 children who were stolen and she gave them all the

34:24 same surname of Hamilton Byrne. Yep.

34:27 Another fourteen of the children were given the surname Foster,

34:32 and they were all children who had been given to her by cult

34:36 members. So that meant that there were

34:38 children that were running around in this up top and and

34:41 round in and Linda, whose parents would genuine biological

34:46 parents were coming in and out of the of of the place, you

34:50 know, being involved in the this cult.

34:52 But we're not recognizing that child as their child, because

34:56 that child was now Anne's child. Blows my mind I.

35:00 Don't even imagine. Can't but OK to give your child

35:03 up for adoption is one thing OK, for whatever reason that may be,

35:07 Yep. But to then actually be present

35:10 in that child. And these are not formal

35:12 adoptions by any means, were they?

35:14 So to then be present in that child's life day-to-day, because

35:19 a lot of these mums were actually what what the cult

35:23 would call aunties and they would work in shifts around the

35:27 clock to look after these children like the however many

35:30 of them there were in the end of 28.

35:33 And so the children thought that these women were their aunties

35:38 and some of them it was actually their biological mum.

35:43 And the the aunties would actually perpetrate the violence

35:48 on the children as directed by Anne, and they would perpetrate

35:52 that on their own children. Yeah, so and so into that

35:56 leading into that of like the the abuse on the children.

35:58 Yeah. The reason for the abuse of

36:00 things was that they needed to keep these children secluded,

36:04 that they they were special because under Anne's belief of

36:08 what was going to happen was that the world was going to end

36:11 and these children were going to be who were going to repopulate

36:14 the Earth. So the idea was that there was

36:16 going to be some sort of natural disaster, World War three,

36:18 Armageddon. Yeah, Armageddon was going to

36:19 come wipe out the entire planet of human life other than these

36:25 28 children who were then to repopulate the Earth.

36:28 So she educated these children, highly educated them.

36:33 They were all very intelligent. However they were narrowly

36:39 taught in terms of what the world was.

36:41 They were informed that police and other people outside of

36:45 their compound were evil and that they were basically these

36:49 special human beings who needed to be protected from the outside

36:52 world. But they were also then really

36:57 kept in line of like and they had to behave a certain way.

37:00 And so obviously for them to not, they didn't want them

37:02 looking outside of the cult. So they would punish them at any

37:06 sign of them stepping out of line.

37:09 But that boundary that would be set in terms of what was

37:11 stepping out of line would be moved all the time.

37:13 So these kids would be forever trying to keep themselves from

37:17 getting punished because the punishment was horrific.

37:21 But it was always changing. So like I remember there was a

37:24 story where the, a teacher had come in to run school for the

37:27 day, leaving the, the, the building had got to his car and

37:31 realized, oh, where have my paintbrushes gone?

37:33 I can't find them. So the aunties have bailed all

37:36 the kids up to say, right, where are the where are the

37:39 paintbrushes? Where are the paintbrushes?

37:41 They didn't know where they were.

37:42 So they started getting out buckets of water.

37:45 And this was not the only occasion this happened on.

37:47 This was a regular form of torch that they used, bucket of water

37:52 and they would dunk the kids head in the bucket for 1520

37:56 seconds. Pull the kids head out.

37:58 Where are the paint brushes? I don't know.

38:00 I don't know. I didn't, I haven't touched

38:01 them. Head back in the bucket, 20 more

38:03 seconds, you know, pull his head, pull their head out, say

38:05 and again, again. And this went on for hours.

38:09 It turned out the teacher had dropped the paint brushes on the

38:12 way to his car, so these kids legitimately didn't do anything.

38:16 No kids should be put through that torture regardless of that,

38:18 but they they would just be relentlessly tortured in these

38:21 moments like this. It was just horrific.

38:23 It was, they were. The children were like being

38:27 bred or whatever to be a white master race to save the world.

38:33 Mm, hmm. She dyed the hair blonde.

38:35 A lot of them, so that they'd look the same.

38:38 They were modelled on the Von Trapp family.

38:40 They wanted them to be perfect in perfect matching clothes.

38:43 They weren't allowed to, you know, take a step out of line,

38:46 as you said, otherwise they would be really severely

38:50 punished. They would even record, Sorry,

38:53 put my time I can propaganda videos.

38:58 And so like, basically from the outside world, people would see

39:01 these videos and think that, you know, oh, it's so fabulous.

39:03 That's what these children are just lovely and they're so

39:05 smart. And she would literally have

39:07 them marching around and parading as if they were.

39:10 Yeah, the von Trapps. It was quite, quite revolting

39:14 because the cult did grow to a number of 500 members in 1978.

39:19 And it's always my mind. That's incredible.

39:21 And they did spread across the world a little bit too.

39:23 There were a few dotted around outside of Australia that were

39:26 also members, so I mean 500 members sending in their money

39:30 and. Yeah, I mean, that's how she

39:32 masked a $50 million fortune over the 60 years, I guess.

39:35 Crazy, crazy. Anne's third husband was.

39:40 He actually had a family and a wife when he met Anne.

39:42 She convinced him to leave her. Yep.

39:44 Yep, and then he became an equal abuser in the whole situation.

39:49 I wonder what his temperament and personality was like before

39:52 meeting her. Yeah, got to wonder.

39:53 I mean, because she had convinced a lot of these men in

39:56 her in the cult that they were reincarnations of the apostles.

40:01 So, you know, like that Rayner was John the Baptist.

40:05 Yeah. So I can't remember if Bill had

40:07 been named an apostle. Or I'm not sure actually.

40:11 But yeah, there was. She certainly had her her core

40:15 men in the group. And this is the thing, she had a

40:17 lot of manipulation. Manipulation over men.

40:19 Yeah. I mean, she was, I guess, by all

40:22 standards, very beautiful. I think I mentioned before that

40:25 she was very vain and she certainly had lots and lots and

40:28 lots and lots and lots of cosmetic surgeries and

40:31 procedures to maintain that perceived beauty.

40:35 It it didn't last long. No, because when she was older,

40:38 there's an interview that Karl Stefanovic does with her.

40:40 I think that was the 60 Minutes interview, was it?

40:42 Yeah, Yeah. And she looks shocking.

40:45 There's nothing about her in that video that you look at and

40:48 go, oh, she's very beautiful. No, she's plastic.

40:51 Earlier in her in days where there's photos of her, you kinda

40:53 go. Yeah, she was beautiful.

40:54 She was beautiful. I think she ruined herself with

40:56 all these plastic. So she probably had she'd let

40:58 herself age gracefully. She probably could have been

41:01 quite beautiful well into her her lady years.

41:03 But yeah, that that video, she looks full creep.

41:05 She does look like a full creeper.

41:07 Yeah, I mean she is. The voice and everything is.

41:09 Yeah. And I hate the way in that, in

41:11 that interview that she never answers a question.

41:14 So Carl will ask her a direct question and she skirts her.

41:17 She never answers. I could.

41:19 I actually got so frustrated with it I couldn't end up

41:21 watching the end of it. Is it Bill in the background?

41:23 He jumps in every now and then. Yeah, he's like, but this

41:25 happened but Oh no, don't forget and don't ask this and you

41:27 can't. Oh, he's yeah.

41:29 I mean he's again in it's her magical vagina again.

41:33 She so the cult members were all vegetarians.

41:37 She also prided herself on making sure that the children

41:41 were very well nourished in that they weren't allowed to eat

41:45 anything that may potentially tarnish their perfect little

41:49 body. But.

41:49 There's another reason for that, too.

41:51 Yeah. I mean, lack of protein impacts

41:53 the brain and therefore your ability to make decisions and,

41:56 you know, really understand what's being done and sit around

41:59 you. That with a lack of

42:01 carbohydrates as well. They, they didn't have much, you

42:04 know, they had didn't have much sustenance.

42:06 She justified it by saying, oh, they live such a healthy life.

42:09 But literally all they were living off was vegetables, fruit

42:12 and a few leg and even that few little legumes.

42:14 And it was rationed absolutely that the kids were starving.

42:17 Yeah. There was a story of one of the

42:19 children who was, she was sort of a little bit of a rebel in

42:22 the group, but she would leave and go to other houses around

42:27 the compound. So was Sarah the oldest one?

42:29 That was, Sarah was. It yeah, I mean, 'cause you

42:31 gotta, I mean, I, I from a baby taking a baby, you can mould and

42:35 manipulate a baby. They do grow up and they do grow

42:38 their own brains and as much as like she can control them as

42:40 much as possible when they're younger.

42:42 I think Sarah got to sort of that age of 1516 and was like,

42:47 this is not right. Like, you know, and she did

42:50 venture off and, yeah, she was stealing from the neighbours to

42:52 get food. And yeah, yeah.

42:55 So she was the one who eventually she befriended some

42:58 girls in the local area with when she was venturing out and

43:02 obviously there was a lot of talk in amongst the locals.

43:04 Oh, they'd have to have known something.

43:06 They were always going on there on.

43:07 Earth is this place. And what's going on?

43:09 Yeah, they all realised that there was children there.

43:11 And I mean, and all that something, I mean, they'll put

43:13 in these propaganda. Oh my God, I can't say that

43:15 word. Propaganda.

43:16 Propaganda, new video is out. So it wasn't, they weren't like

43:19 they were hidden in that sense. They were.

43:20 We are here. But, you know, for valid

43:22 reasons. There's what they sort of put

43:23 out there. Yeah.

43:24 But the locals were all talk of, you know, this is a bit weird

43:26 and what's going on out here. And the cops would go out there

43:28 and check things and that on the other occasion, yeah.

43:30 The other thing that I find interesting, and I'm hoping you

43:33 can speak a little bit more to this as well-being that you're a

43:35 teacher, but Kyle Lama in 1984, so up top was registered as a

43:42 school. They would be subject to

43:44 inspections and accreditation, surely, I mean, as as part of

43:47 that process. Yeah.

43:49 Nothing was picked up like nothing was looked like why?

43:53 How? Yeah, so the guy is the guy that

43:56 went out from the education department and checked on the

43:58 school to see how it was all operating to make sure it was

44:01 ticking all the boxes, what they require.

44:03 Yep. He thought the place was

44:04 fantastic. He gave it all the red, all the

44:07 ticks, actually went back to the education department I believe

44:09 and went we should be modelling more schools on this.

44:11 It's. Amazing the cult.

44:13 Possibly, possibly was because they did, you know, have

44:16 tentacles out into the education department.

44:18 There were certainly teachers that were cult members and

44:22 obviously came out to the to the the compound there and and

44:25 taught the children. Yep, there was many teachers

44:27 involved, but I wouldn't. Yeah, I don't know whether this

44:31 specific person was part of the cult, but he went out there and

44:34 saw very well behaved children, which they all love.

44:36 We all got to fit into a. Box that's I was going to say

44:38 that's got to have red razor red flag all.

44:41 These days, yeah, maybe not back then, fair call.

44:44 I mean, the kids were incredibly intelligent.

44:46 So I guess in terms of the education that was happening

44:48 there, if you looked at it in terms of meeting the curriculum,

44:51 they were. They're probably exceeding.

44:54 What? They're well exceeding what that

44:55 was expecting. So in those in that aspect, I

44:57 think he was like, yeah, this is great.

44:59 The fact that they all had dyed blonde hair, they were all in

45:03 the same clothing and all had the same surname didn't set off

45:07 any alarm bells. That's what I find bizarre.

45:09 But no, didn't. So they, they got the tick of

45:12 approval from the Education Department for that.

45:14 Yeah, there's a few other issues in terms of the Education

45:16 department as well of how things got involved there, because

45:19 there is, it was also the issue where one particular school in

45:22 Melbourne that needed some work done and they contracted, they

45:28 put the tender out and particular cult members got the

45:32 one, the tender. And there was A and if he was

45:35 looked into very deeply in terms of whether there was some

45:41 conflict of interest in terms of how they got the tender and did

45:45 the works. So there's and it was, it was

45:47 like a $2,000,000, two million dollar job.

45:50 I mean, back in the day, in this year, in this time, Oh wow, it

45:53 was a big job. So there was a lot of money then

45:55 they were making out of it and it was cult members that were

45:58 all handing jobs off to each other.

46:00 So, right. OK.

46:01 Yeah. So it's a lot, a lot goes a lot

46:03 deeper. Yeah, yeah.

46:05 Potentially, I just find that really interesting that like,

46:08 you know, you think and like a government organization like the

46:12 Department of Education, they'd have a bit of an I'd like they'd

46:16 walk into that and go something just seems a bit awry here.

46:20 But no, anyway, that's it is what it is.

46:22 Nothing got picked up at the time and they were allowed to

46:25 continue operating as a as a OH. As a high quality school, yeah,

46:29 yeah. Question marks I would have

46:32 thought, but any? Question marks now, I guess we

46:38 can kind of come now to when the like when the cult, well, when

46:45 Anne kind of got discovered so or and things kind of started

46:49 coming to an end. So I guess that began with

46:51 Sarah. Yeah.

46:53 And her venturing out and yeah, as we said, stealing from local

46:57 homes. I guess that sort of alerted the

46:59 locals. But she ended up, because of her

47:02 stealing, Anne ended up banishing her from the cult.

47:05 So she was left with nowhere to go.

47:07 So she went to these locals that she knew and they took her in.

47:11 And then one of another little girl, Leanne from the group also

47:16 went looking for Sarah then because she was like, well, hang

47:18 on a second, If she can get out, maybe I can get out.

47:20 And she went hunting for for Sarah.

47:23 She found her. They so these two girls were

47:25 ended up at this person's house in the local area telling the

47:29 parents of these friends that they had met what went on in the

47:33 in the cult Who and thankfully the parents went.

47:36 Well, I'm going to go to the police.

47:37 Yeah. So they went off to the police

47:41 and and the police investigated it and they did get the kids

47:44 out. So in 1987, they did a massive

47:47 raid. 1997, Was it 90? No 87?

47:51 Yeah. No, it was Friday the 14th of

47:53 August in 1990. Seven, 1987.

47:55 Was that odd? Definitely 87.

47:57 OK, 87. Yep.

47:58 Because I remember, because I'm old and I remember it.

48:03 Yeah, 1987. So yeah, 1987 they raided the

48:07 Kailama and yeah, got these children out who then all were

48:12 all at this time explained to them that Anne isn't your

48:15 mother. And some of them then had to

48:17 find who their parents were. And some of them found that,

48:19 yeah, they were cult member, cult members were their parents.

48:23 And yet when they were not told, and they say they could actually

48:25 they knew then who their parent was.

48:27 Other children though, had to then go for hunting to try and

48:29 find who their parent could be. And finding the records, not

48:33 being being there, that could really help them out to find who

48:37 their parents were. Called finding that the records

48:40 that they could find were actually falsified and they

48:42 didn't have real information on them.

48:45 So Lexter Mann was the Victorian police detective who sort of

48:49 ended up being the the lead investigator on on this case.

48:54 He calls Anne the most evil person I've ever come across.

48:59 They and it obviously caught wind that things were starting

49:03 to happen and she'd actually fled overseas to England 1st and

49:08 then made her way across the across to the USI find her.

49:12 Escape. Interesting in that sense.

49:14 She went overseas like that. Basically any cult leader, like

49:17 the, you know, she's predicting something that's going to occur

49:19 in the future and when the future comes and it doesn't

49:23 happen. So she predicted that roughly

49:25 mid 80s, yeah, the world was going to end.

49:28 So. And when the mid 80s came and

49:30 went and there was no end of the world, she was I guess in a

49:33 position of, well, how else do I keep this going and how do I

49:37 continue this false information? Yeah, that she's gone, I'm out

49:40 kind of thing, which she she ran the cult still from overseas,

49:44 but very much more less impactful, I guess on the

49:48 day-to-day so that it wasn't questioned.

49:50 She couldn't be questioned by them being well hang on a

49:52 second, like hold on about this time again coming.

49:55 Sorry, what day and time did you say?

49:57 Yeah, they but they did just still continue following her

50:00 orders from overseas while she. Was giving her their money and.

50:03 Yep, Yeah. It's.

50:04 It's absolutely bizarre. Yeah.

50:07 So in 1993, she was arrested when she was in the US She was

50:11 there with Bill in UPS in one of their properties, as we were

50:14 saying before, in upstate New York.

50:16 The property is stunning. Like, absolutely gorgeous.

50:19 Yeah, I love the way that she was caught though, or the way

50:23 that they arrested her. The FBI agent, I can't remember

50:25 the name of the agent, but she's, she's a kick ass woman.

50:28 He went into the back of a mail delivery truck and was like a

50:35 bit Incognito. So she wasn't in any FBI get up.

50:37 She was just in her civvies and she delivered the mail to Anne's

50:43 letterbox and she basically just waited for Anne to come out to

50:46 collect the mail and arrested her right there.

50:49 So she had, Anne had absolutely no idea what was coming.

50:53 She had no makeup on. She was not.

50:54 I think she was even in her pajamas when she was arrested.

50:57 Love that because again, being someone so vain, I'm sure she

51:01 wouldn't have liked to have been seen without her makeup.

51:03 Bill was also arrested at the same time and they were popped

51:07 into, popped into jail. And in the jail cell next to

51:12 Bill, somebody got really brutally beaten up by the cops.

51:16 So. By the OH by the I.

51:17 Believe, I believe it was by the police officers like so you

51:21 know, it was pretty, you know, dicey.

51:24 And so Bill basically said to Ann, oh, we've got to take this

51:28 plea deal that the Aussies are offering us to be extradited

51:31 back to Australia to face basically faced the crimes that

51:35 they'd perpetrated. Yeah.

51:36 And so, yeah, they're like, shit, I'm out of here.

51:38 So they jump on a on a plane back to Melbourne.

51:42 Yeah. But unfortunately, the worst

51:45 that came of it for them was a $5000 fine for forging

51:49 documentation. They were never and still to

51:53 this day have never been tried or convicted of any of the

51:58 stealing or kidnapping of the children of the cult, any acts

52:02 of violence or any illegal activities that the cult

52:05 participated in. Nobody has been held accountable

52:09 for that. And part of that was due to the

52:10 fact they didn't want to put the children through the trauma of

52:14 sitting through trial and giving evidence.

52:17 But surely that means there's got to be a way in which we can

52:20 run our court systems that allows victims to not be very

52:24 traumatized, but at the same time give evidence.

52:27 Yeah. I mean, I think that's a big,

52:29 big discussion that would need to happen because you're

52:32 absolutely right. In these circumstances, why is

52:35 it that the victims have to, you know, as you say, re traumatize

52:39 themselves in order to be able to get the justice that they

52:42 absolutely deserve? I don't know.

52:44 Yeah. But there's got to be a better

52:46 way of doing it. But at the minute, our system is

52:49 imperfect. Yeah, it's the best that we've

52:52 got at the minute. And yeah, just sort of the way

52:54 it the way it ended up. So the eldest, Sarah, this is

52:58 sort of now a little bit more about, you know, the kids and

53:02 where they are now. Yeah.

53:04 Sarah Moore, who was formerly Sarah Hamilton Byrne, she went

53:11 to medical school and became a doctor.

53:13 And then I think that just shows just how incredibly intelligent

53:15 she was and the drive that she would have to have to put

53:19 herself through medical school and, and really, you know,

53:22 that's what an amazing achievement for her.

53:25 But she was a very tortured young girl, young woman.

53:30 She was self prescribing fentanyl and she made several

53:35 attempts on her life in her sort of in her 20s.

53:39 I'm not sure if we mentioned it but the use of the LSD wasn't

53:42 just limited to adults in the cult.

53:44 We should say it was used on the children too, which I can't even

53:47 imagine then the impact of that. Yeah, and the prolonged use over

53:50 time, like in growing bodies, who knows?

53:53 Sarah actually died in her early 40s of heart issues related to

53:59 her drug past. Yeah, and as you said, the LSD

54:02 absolutely would have played into that and as well as the

54:05 abuse. She lost a limb too.

54:06 Didn't. She Yeah, that was that was as a

54:08 result of one of the attempts on her life.

54:10 That's right. Yeah, the other person in this

54:15 case, who I just have a really soft spot for, there's a lot

54:18 he's done a lot of media. There's a lot of radio

54:21 interviews with him. He has his own website called

54:23 Rescue the Family and you can see a lot of his media

54:27 appearances on there and you can watch them, listen to them on

54:30 there. I actually came across him in an

54:32 in, in an episode of Insight on SBS in Australia.

54:37 And it's an interview sort of style where they have a

54:41 different case each week. And he was on it talking about

54:44 the fact that he'd been involved in a cult.

54:46 And I just I, he is such a gentle and lovely man.

54:51 He's got a family of his own now and he's he's just an incredible

54:56 person. And he found out that one of the

54:58 aunties was his mum. In the process of of sort of

55:03 everything sort of unraveling, he had a really difficult time

55:06 coming to terms with all of this.

55:08 And he speaks very, very openly about that.

55:10 And he also talks about how the effect physically on children

55:16 who've been involved in these traumatic situations, like he

55:19 was saying a depletion in growth hormone over his life.

55:23 He was always very little. And then once he was, you know,

55:27 put into a foster family where he was nourished and he was able

55:32 to experience life and everything that had to offer, He

55:36 actually had this like really big growth spurt and he really

55:38 flourished. And he really has made an A

55:41 wonderful life for himself. He just can't imagine what what

55:45 all of these children went through.

55:47 That's it. I mean, there unfortunately,

55:48 there's some really sad stories these around number of the

55:50 children that, you know, that grew up and from the impact of

55:53 what happened there and others have made, you know, great lives

55:56 for themselves. Like not not as many, not as

55:58 many as you'd like to. I think unfortunately, it's

56:01 quite sad because there's also their role and effect of those

56:03 kids who, I mean, there was the 28 core children that were at

56:06 the cult, but also that were either stolen or you know,

56:10 handed over to them. But there's also the outliers of

56:12 just members of the cult. There's families that were

56:14 members of the cult and these and that who had children who

56:16 were raised in particular ways with a very weird belief growing

56:20 up too. So there was many young people

56:23 impacted who didn't have a choice about being involved in

56:26 all of this. And as we said, the cult is

56:28 still running today. I believe that the average age

56:31 of the member of the cult is quite you know, it's over. 80, I

56:34 think like that, literally the average age.

56:36 So that means they've had no new recruits in forever, which is?

56:39 Great news 'cause it will die out eventually, I assume then

56:42 yeah. But I mean, they're still active

56:44 and up until 20/19 with Anne living, she was living in a an

56:47 aged home care, aged care facility not far from us at all,

56:52 all very much around the corner. Yeah.

56:54 And cult members would come and do her hair and they would take

56:57 her laundry and go and wash it and bring it back.

56:59 So they're very much still bowing down to her as if she's

57:02 Jesus Christ, which, come on people, Armageddon.

57:06 It never happens. If you've been indoctrinated

57:08 into this and you're you've just lived your entire life like that

57:12 and you're that old, you'd probably just be like, yeah,

57:14 I'll just keep going. Keep this pretense up.

57:17 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know.

57:19 Yeah. So it's an interesting one.

57:21 But yeah, Anne died aged 97. Yeah.

57:24 Yeah, well, goodbye. Bye.

57:27 Bye. Yeah.

57:29 So a brutal and bizarre cult. It was.

57:32 Absolutely is was. Yeah, Yeah.

57:35 I got looking into this though, in terms of the cult, and I sort

57:37 of went down a bit of a rabbit hole because I am, I'm intrigued

57:41 by cults, always have been. I just find it fascinating, as

57:43 we were saying earlier, about why people join these cults and

57:46 what is so attractive to it, Why?

57:48 What manipulates them? How do they so easily become

57:51 manipulated to these things. I ended up finding some stuff

57:55 out about there was a theory. There is a theory out there that

57:58 this could have been an offshoot of something that was created in

58:03 America with the CIA. Go on.

58:07 Yeah, Sorry, I don't know if you've ever heard of MK Ultra.

58:10 Yes. Yeah.

58:11 So MK Ultra was, it was a program developed by the CIA

58:16 about looking into mind control and it was developed in a

58:20 roundabout 1953, which is roughly when, yeah, this all

58:24 started with N And so it was illegal human experiments to

58:29 identify drugs that could be used to used during

58:32 interrogations to weaken individuals for force and forced

58:38 them to confess basically. So they were doing all these

58:42 really illegal studies on people and finding ways what they would

58:45 do would be they would be under the guise of like research.

58:48 They would infiltrate organizations such as

58:52 universities, hospitals. So it kind of connects up with

58:56 like maybe someone like Rina. Were they using LSD?

58:59 They were using LSD. That was their key drug that

59:02 they were using in the program. So they use lots of different

59:05 variations on brainwashing and psychological torture.

59:08 OK, but it all involved using LSD.

59:12 Wow. So when you look at it from the

59:14 perspective maybe like the CIA wanting to infiltrate various

59:18 places to test out their theory, it's possible that they were

59:21 getting people on board, like a Rayner to kind of go, well, how

59:24 can we get more clients? How can we, you know, access

59:27 more people? And it was completely illegal

59:30 and unethical. That could explain or give some

59:33 more weight behind why Rayner fell for things fell for an hook

59:37 clients. Maybe he was researching.

59:39 Yeah, like maybe and feeding research back to the CIA around.

59:47 Yeah, it when I was reading more and more about it, I was like,

59:50 well, maybe there's something to this.

59:52 Maybe. I guess we'll never know though,

59:54 will we? No, absolutely not.

59:56 But also a little, another little connection there to that

59:59 and to another case that we will most definitely look at down the

1:00:02 track. It has been suggested and well,

1:00:06 not even just suggested, but there are definite, there's

1:00:09 definite evidence of a particular Charles Manson being

1:00:13 involved in CIA research. Yes.

1:00:17 He's actually linked to four different research projects with

1:00:20 the CIA rumoured to be with four.

1:00:22 Two have been proven. There are documents linking him

1:00:26 to CIA research and Wheatley enough.

1:00:30 His cult was called The Family. Family.

1:00:33 So there's possibility that he was also doing similar sorts of

1:00:38 things within his cult, using drugs to to affect people in

1:00:43 different ways. So is it?

1:00:45 Is this actually the branch off of the CI AM K Ultra project?

1:00:51 That is so interesting. Oh, I love a good conspiracy

1:00:55 theory. I mean, I depending on the

1:00:57 conspiracy totally. I mean with you, but.

1:00:59 There's lots of documentation of this MK Ultra.

1:01:02 Yeah, in action. It's not they.

1:01:03 Well, it was shut down in like 19.

1:01:07 I wanna say 1973 ish. OK, yeah, 1973 it was shut down.

1:01:11 However, there were offshoots from that.

1:01:14 So it kept running under different names completely

1:01:17 illegally. What they were doing.

1:01:18 It was so unethical and that so when they when they did shut it

1:01:21 down in 1973, the head of the CIA actually said burn

1:01:25 everything. And so they got rid of a lot of

1:01:28 the documentation. But there are documents that

1:01:30 have been found that track this MK Ultra.

1:01:34 And I have got some screenshots of some documents that are fully

1:01:38 mind blowing of like the unethical nature of this

1:01:40 project. They knew what they were doing

1:01:41 was completely illegal and unethical.

1:01:43 Yeah. So maybe when we do our Charles

1:01:46 Manson case, we can get into that even even more so.

1:01:49 Totally if there's proven links. There.

1:01:51 Yeah. Stay tuned for that.

1:01:53 Yeah, bring it on. Yeah, Very interesting.

1:01:56 Yeah. Yeah, well, I guess that brings

1:01:58 us to the end of the Anne Hamilton Byrne saga.

1:02:02 My God, it's a it's a crazy one, but thank you to everybody who's

1:02:06 joined us all the way through to the end.

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1:02:46 So next week we are going to be looking at the Golden State

1:02:51 Killer. Go out there guys, have a look

1:02:54 around even if you just have a bit of a listen to some of the

1:02:57 creepy phone calls he makes in anticipation of next week.

1:03:00 But we have got a lot to cover there.

1:03:02 So yeah, let's get our detective hats on and get going on that

1:03:07 one looking. Forward to it.

1:03:08 Yeah, that deep dive, that one. Oh my God, there's so much

1:03:10 there. So much.

1:03:11 Anyway, we look forward to everyone joining us next week

1:03:14 and thank you for joining this week.

1:03:15 Thanks everyone, see you later. See you next week.

1:03:18 Stay curious. Crime besties.

1:03:36 I'll just put a pin a mark in now.

1:03:38 Yeah. Should we clap?

1:03:40 Yeah, just for you, Peter.