Episode 11 - Anne Hamilton Byrne and The Family Cult

0:16 Welcome back to Crime Besties. We're here for episode 11 today. Hi, Emma. Hi Meg. I am so excited to be back and we've got a bit of a special, bit of a special thing going on today because we've got ourselves some new equipment we have. Real podcasters now with our boom. And everything and we've got some special mics. We know our sound quality hasn't been great leading up to this. So we decided to make a bit of an investment and, and really, you know, go all in and here we are. So we really hope that you can notice the difference in all of this.

0:51 And I guess this kind of leads me saying a very, very big thank you to my husband Peter for helping us sort. Yeah, our now official producer, Peter. Thank you very much, Peter. We really appreciate all the work that he has put in that we do finding the equipment and rectifying all the, the sound issues that we've been having. And it's been, oh, I mean it's been a task and 1/2. It has been, but I think we've got it sorted now, finally so. Thank goodness he's so beefy. Yeah, Yep. Just ask him. Anyway, thank you very much, Peter.

1:24 We really, really appreciate it. Does that count that he's now appeared on the podcast. Yeah, you know what? Let's call it, Yeah. I mean, he's desperate to be on. I thought our kids had desperations to be in our podcast. Well, here we go. Yeah, Peter. Yeah. Well, truly. Well, welcome Peter officially to the TCB family. He loves it, he does. He does anything. We're not getting a pain. Yeah. Anything where he can look at tech and buy things he's more than happy to jump on boards. Yep. Yeah, we're just helping him out, Really.

1:55 Yeah. Totally, totally thanks to. US. Yeah, you're welcome, Peter. You're welcome. What have you been up to this week? Yeah, not much, just, well, it's been busy, busy, busy. Yes and yeah. I it's, I can't even think what I've been doing this week. I'm not being that busy. I think my brain has fallen out to be. Really honest, I've been like super duper getting into America's Sweethearts, the documentary on Netflix about the Dallas Cowboys. Cheerleaders binge that bad over like the school holidays when Yeah, yeah, it's it's an easy watch.

2:27 Like it's very easy watch, but not in some ways too. It's pretty. It's intense, it's intense. I just tried to do a high kick before before we started recording. I couldn't get it about halfway. Pull a muscle on all three. Exactly. I'm like, oh God, I'm not going to be able to walk for a week. But we were talking about how they do these like jump splits and they all like they fuck up their hips and they can't. Like it's not a you're not. There's no longevity in being a cheerleader at that level is.

2:54 There cannot be. I mean, who? I know it's, they've been doing that for a long time. Yeah. Who was the crazy ass bitch who decided? To do back in the 70s or something insane, absolutely insane. They're incredible athletes. So they're so fit. And some of the wording around the way they talk about it though on the documentary, it's, I mean, there's, it's really kind of problematic. They talk about the girls who are like too skinny. They say, oh, they're not fuelling their bodies well enough. Or if they're like, you know, maybe slightly, slightly, you know, they might have put on some weight or.

3:29 Something slightly slightly. Yeah, but even then, I mean, you know, lovely. Yeah. They they talk about them over fueling themselves. I'm like, Oh my God. So it is. It's pretty toxic. Watch it if you're if you're filling up for a light watch that you don't want to then delve too much deeper into. Yeah, yeah, but you did, didn't you? I just couldn't help myself. And then I listen. There's actually a podcast about them as well. Seriously, I didn't know that. And I think the podcast is actually also called America's Sweethearts.

3:56 And the journalist who who created the podcast did it during COVID. And so she was interviewing, I mean, I guess the cheerleaders all had heaps of time. Yeah. And she was interviewing them for the podcast and. Oh yeah, it's, yeah, there's some problematic, there's some deep seated issues within that organization, but. Those, all those have been exploited. Totally. They get, they get paid like $15,000 a season or something it seems. Actually now I think it's like 40,000. But even still, yeah, the amount of work they put into it there, it means that hourly rate isn't even minimum wage.

4:28 Well, I mean a lot of them will work at work like full time jobs and then go there in the evening to train, working themselves to the bone and then fit the physical like what it takes out of your body. Yeah, I mean, let's be really honest, they are putting their body is through equal amounts of what the players of the game of what is it? What's it called gridiron in America? Is that right? Sorry, not American. Football, American football, those play, they're putting their bodies through the same amount as the males in this scenario.

4:53 And those the males are being paid are hell of a lot more than 40 grand a year. Yeah, and even the mascot gets paid 60 grand A. Year Are you serious? I'm. Serious. Oh, look, we could talk about this for hours, but yeah, OK, another episode. Yeah, maybe another episode, but anyway, what are we talking about today? That's criminal. I know I can't get over that 60 grand a year and they're getting paid 40. Yeah, sorry. I'm. Yeah, I'm, I dare say it's a it's a man and that. Is a man. Yep. Sorry, I can't get past Meg.

5:25 Meg. He's not gonna be able to record the rest of the episode. I'm gonna help with that revelation. Yeah. Yeah. Don't get into it anymore then if that's angered you, there's way more so. Right. OK. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's move on. Yeah, moving on to today's actual crime or recognized crime, we are talking today about the family, which is a cult that was created by Anne Hamilton Byrne. I think let's just put a little disclaimer in here as well that we will be discussing child abuse today. So if that's too heavy for you, too much for you probably, you know, skip this one and and go to another episode.

6:04 So Anne Hamilton Byrne, what an interesting character. Oh yeah. What an interesting woman. Yeah, she believed she was the reincarnation of Christ in female form. She was actually born Evelyn Grace Victoria Edwards on the 30th of December in 1921. Thinking about that era, I mean 1921, that was a very, very, very, very, very long time ago in terms of her life experience and what has happened and changed over her life. There's, you know, there's a giant, giant breadth and scope there. Yeah. But in all, in amongst all of that change and all of that innovation and everything that was going on, she decided to create the family.

6:48 It was also known as the Great White Brotherhood of Initiates and Masters. That's an interesting one. Oh yeah. And it all happened in, in and around Victoria, Australia. Very close to us. Well, one of the compounds was in Alinda in Victoria, which is in the Dandenong Ranges, and that's only like what, 10, not even 10 or 15 KS up the road from us. Yeah, yeah, very close. Yeah. We go up there quite regularly to be honest. Yeah. Great. Oh, God, What am I trying to say? What do they call that? Scones and tea.

7:24 Like when you go for. What's that called? Like Devonshire. Devonshire tea. That's what I was trying to say. Miss Marples. Miss Marples? Yeah. That way, yeah. Yeah, that's what. Sassafras, Fenny Creek, Linda, all that area and which is, yeah, where they basically operated out. It was their HQ. Yep, Yep. And then from there, there was another compound out at Eilden, which again, is only like an hour's drive from here and a place where many families that, I mean, we, I've certainly been there many times, but many families go out there and from this area go boating and out in the lake at Lake Eilden.

7:54 But there was, and they had a compound out there where they ran a major part of their cult. Yeah, they called it a cult, but it is. It was a cult. Totally a cult. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think that's in dispute, is it? I know they didn't call it a cult, but what? No, it is. It's a cold. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Those people in the cult might not call it a cult. Everyone outside of the cult. Called cult. Cult. I think that's pretty standard of cult. So Anne was born in Sale. She was the eldest of seven children and her father's name was Ralph Edwards.

8:26 He was born in Melbourne and he met Anne's mother. Anne's mother was born in London and came over. I think she was a young teenager When she arrived in Australia. Her name was Florence Hoyle. It turned out Florence was a paranoid schizophrenic. She suffered from hallucinations, delusions, and she heard voices. She. Believed she was clairvoyant. She did, yeah. She after an incident where she set fire to her own hair in the street, she was committed to a mental hospital for the final 27 years of her life.

9:03 Yeah, this happened. So she was committed in 1941. She died committed, and there's not, I guess not much more known about her aside from the fact that she was institutionalized and there was not really any hope of her being able to assimilate back into. Especially back in those days, I mean there was no treatment or sort of they, they were just crazy and put in asylums and. Put in a mental hospital and yeah, they were called back then and she went to several, like she was moved around the state.

9:35 So in terms of Anne around that time, I think Anne was, was she 18 when that happened? I think, yeah, roughly about that age, 'cause I know she, yeah, yeah. So she was, yeah, an adult, I guess, when she, when she was finally diagnosed as schizophrenia and put into the young mental institution. Yeah. But she'd, she'd actually spent some time in an orphanage as well in during her upbringing because her father, so Anne being the oldest of these seven children, her father would actually take these periods of absence and go off and do God only knows what I mean.

10:10 I think he was in the army, wasn't he? Oh, I don't know about him. Not sure. I just know that he would. Yeah. Disappear. Yeah, he'd he'd be sort of in and out of the family's life. He or Anne described him as a spiritualist, which I don't really know what the definition of a spiritualist is aside from like that. Is that just a spiritual person or is that a profession? Yeah, I'm not sure. Yeah. What particular spirit? Yeah, I don't. Know anyway, so he he was not all that present. I think if you think about the time frame, maybe that makes a little bit of sense in that back then men weren't really the ones to bring up families.

10:52 It sounds horrible when you think about it in the 2024 context, but I think the expectations of men were far different to what we now expect of dads and men in society. Totally, Yeah. Evelyn, a lot of her time growing up in orphanages, she attended Sunshine Primary School. So that's again, it's just over the other side of the city. So it's not that far away really and sort of moved into our neck of the woods, you know, later on in her life. There's not a lot known about her childhood really, aside from the fact that her dad was in and out of her life.

11:31 Her mum was not necessarily capable of looking after the children, hence the the stints they were spent in an orphanage. There's not a huge amount of information really about her upbringing. We can infer that being that she, the being that she was in the situation that she was, that things were, you know, not great for her. There was certainly no stability there for her. It must have been an awful way to be brought up. Yeah, oh, there's definitely, it's got to have had impact on her. But unfortunately, I guess that's where my empathy for her well.

12:07 There comes a time where you're an adult and you can make decisions, right? There are plenty of people who've been in orphanages who haven't, you know, perpetrated the things she has. Yeah. Crime. Yeah, sure. Yeah, definitely. Now she's she's, yeah, her, her. It's kind of impacted her into her adulthood as the person that she was going to become. But there's next level and she's got to. Yeah, there's got to be a level of responsibility for that. You've got to know this was not OK. That's it. So Anne married her first husband named Lionel Harris in 1941.

12:40 I've actually just made note that she was aged 20 then, so that was the same year that her mum was first committed. They met working on a fruit farm in Sydney. He was in the army at the time. Was he when they met or? Yeah, he was. He was in the army and then it was a very he was he the one that disappeared when he was, yes, yeah. So he was in the Army and I think, 'cause we've been around about obviously 1940s, it would have been during the War world. War 2. Pretty sure he served in the in the war.

13:10 He did, but then he went AWOL from there and came like, and came home to Anne. Yeah. And so he wasn't, he did end up going back into the armed forces, but then he was discharged honourably. But he did do some odd stuff and leave to come back to Anna. I really I read all that and listened to stuff about that and the is this the start of her manipulation over someone? That is exactly what I thought as well, because so for somebody, I mean, I guess during a World War, there was obviously conscription.

13:40 So whether he wanted to be in the army or not, I don't know. I haven't looked into whether or not. There was a choice. Yeah, that's it. But it was eight months that he went AWOL for. Yeah. To live with Anne and to spend this time with her, I don't know. It's just a really curious thing to me. Yeah. And I wondered like, because abandonment would be an issue for her, I guess in terms of like her father abandoned the abandoned them. Her mother was really not available to her. Yeah, moving from foster home, foster home, that sort of thing over or orphanages.

14:12 I guess it would have been an issue for her having people abandoned her and him going off to war. Could have been. Tired of her. And. Yeah, well, they they went on to have a daughter. Yeah, one biological daughter. Her name was Judith. She then changed her name later on in life to Natasha. There is not a lot of information about her, and quite rightly so. Like she's an, you know, a much much. Oh. Yeah, I don't know how much she partaked in the. She lived in the compound. She did, eventually. Yeah, and she also, I mean, as Anne changed her name later in life, her surnames not just through marriage, but by choice, and her daughter did the same.

14:53 So she was known eventually as Natasha Hamilton Byrne. Mm Hmm. Which I, I find that very interesting. Why she would lose her father's surname when you know she her father passed away? There was nothing ill toward of her father. Why would you then not want his surname I? Don't know. That's interesting. Further manipulation or I guess if you've grown up with a mother like Anne. And we'll get to why why we think this way really soon. But if you've grown up with a mother like that, you probably almost would take the path of least resistance and be like, yeah, you know what?

15:23 I'll take your surname if that's going to make life easier for me. But. From what I can find out, she ended up moving over to the UK and has resided there since. So she's been very removed from Australia and the cult in that sense physically being here at all. So yeah, interesting. I mean, she was well and truly and a young adult even once the when the cult formed. So this was much later in her life. She wasn't a young child being manipulated into a cold, no, an elder enough to make her own decisions.

15:51 That's right. And I think fairly soon after everything sort of started really getting quite into it, she did leave the country. So yeah. Yeah, look, if she's still alive today, and I don't know whether she is or not, she'd be in her probably early 80s. Whoa, that blows my mind. It does because I mean, I was just looking at because we and only died fairly recently. Yeah, in 19/20/19. Sorry, she was aged 97 when she passed. She was 97. Yeah. God, some people live a long time, don't they? And. And it's always deserved to.

16:21 Yeah, that's it. Anyway, I guess Anne and Lionel wanted to expand their family and in the very early 1950s they were in the process of of adopting a baby boy from Barnardo's. They were on. Well, I think Lionel was actually on his way to sign adoption papers when he was involved in a fatal car accident, so obviously it killed him. This was in Bathurst on the 8th of January in 1955 S Given Lionel had died and was no longer eligible to adopt adopt the baby. Yeah. So she was being like what 35 ish at this at that stage.

17:09 So I guess in though that day and age that wasn't would have been older for her to have carried a baby herself. But I don't think there was anything actually stopping her biologically to have any more children at that point or prior. Like she obviously carried 1. Yeah, not that I've read. I know she was incredibly vain and appearance meant a lot to her. I don't know whether that had any impact on whether or not she wanted to carry more children, I'm not sure. Interestingly, like, yeah, OK. But yeah, I mean, and I wonder whether her need to adopt wanting to thinking to adopt fairly altruistic reasoning and that, you know, because she had spent time in orphanages and wanted to give other children opportunities to have loving homes.

17:47 I mean, I hope that would be of motivation to do that. But then when we look at what happened later on, yeah. I just got a question like, do you think the death of Lionel is when she sort of turned to religion a little bit? Well, she turned to yoga I think first, OK, which I know I definitely at his death she was it was like given some advice to her by someone was saying, hey, there's this new age thing to have a go out here in Australia because very new here of yoga. And so she went and started doing yoga, and there's obviously a very spiritual aspect to yoga, and that really connected with her in some way.

18:23 Yeah, I've, I've actually got written in my notes that in an interview she stated that the yoga brought her community spirituality and a physical peace, whatever that means. In 1960, she trained as a tantric yoga instructor and women started to really look up to her like a guru. She sort of started giving relationship advice and these women really sort of followed whatever she said, like to the to the NTH degree. There were women leaving their husbands on her advice and. I think any yoga instructor is supposed to give relationship advice.

19:00 Well, also like, mind your own business and jeez, man. On that similar topic though, have you ever seen that? There's a documentary on it as well of the the guy who brought out like, hot yoga. Like what's that called? The the, the Really. Yeah. Have you been done that? Yeah. Bikram, Bikram. Bikram, Yeah. Bikram. That's right. It's his name. He was problematic. Holy crap. Yeah, I have watched a documentary about him. I just. Yeah. Any of those like super, you know? Have you done Bikram Yoga? I have actually.

19:28 Actually really enjoy. It. See, I couldn't do it because I've got his heart condition and I was in there going, why am I thinking I'm going to die? Oh yeah, I'm not supposed to do this stuff because I've got a heart condition. My God, Seriously. Yeah, I did. I mean, I did it did the whole class didn't. I did like it. But yeah, my heart was like at about 200 beats per minute. And I'm like, I'm a feeling like this. What's going on? Yeah, I did it before I had kids. I've never done it again since, but I loved it when I used to do it.

19:53 Yeah. Yeah, it feels good. Yeah. I never, though, was manipulated into anything further than attending a Bikram yoga class. That was a hard no. It would be up for it it. Was bad and oh God Can you imagine? It was bad enough. Like the the blokes in those Bikram yoga sessions sometimes would be like sweat puffs. My mum will kill me. Go a few yoga sessions, you know, over the years and like my mum, someone sometimes just come with me in that and see someone fucked. Always, always. Sure it wasn't you, Mom?

20:22 Yeah, Sorry, Patty. Hey, she's made it onto the podcast now, so welcome, Pat. So yeah, she's, she's sort of starting already at this point. And. And not Pat. Yeah, it's starting to really draw people into her, like into her inner sentiment into a circle and really starting to manipulate people into really believing he was this guru, this somebody to look up too. Yeah. The other thing is, at around this time she was telling people that she was a physiotherapist and a nurse. I didn't know that. Yeah, and none of that was true, but she was telling them so that she could give them medical advice and advice on injuries and, you know, she'd help them.

21:04 I'm putting air quotes here but she would help them cure their injuries. Yeah, because that's something she, what she eventually started doing too, was like using people who were doctors and nurses who would, like, inject people with certain things or find certain, like almost convince people of injuries that they had or, or illnesses that they had in certain ways. And then she'd like, get them to stop doing whatever it was it was giving that illness or injury and then tell them that she had cure as a miracle worker.

21:31 Yeah. And obviously that's what she was, obviously Jesus. Yeah. And I guess because of all of these things, her status like within these circles was increasing. So people were like, Oh my God, she's a miracle worker. She she would admire this. She helped me with this. And she was really starting to brainwash her, her followers. And I guess at this point in time, it was small, small fries. But then she met a man by the name of Doctor Rayner Johnson. Well, how she met him is so interesting. Go get him to that.

22:03 Yeah, well, so she, I don't know what came first in terms of did she spot Rayner first and go I need to know him, which I strongly feel it was that way. Or did she meet a particular man who opened her eyes up to there was this person named Rayner, but basically she wanted to know Rayna Johnson. Yeah. And who he was. A physicist, yes, who had only just arrived in Australia from the UK and been employed at the University of Melbourne. Yeah, he was the employed as the Master of Queen's College, which was quite a prestigious title and an honour.

22:39 Yep. He was a theoretical theoretical physicist, as you said, and he was an academic author. He was and he was, well, I mean, he was a theoretical physicist and was very heavily into that, but he was starting to shift into a different realm really of physicists as a physicist, more spiritual, I guess. And I would love to know how she, I mean, this day and age, like, you know, you can jump on someone's website and find out about them. I mean, back in that day and age, when, how did she find out about this?

23:07 And. I think she found out about him or the way it came about is because I think she actually knew people who worked at Melbourne University. Already had connections, yes. I think she already had connections through people. I mean, by this stage she'd sort of started recruiting people from like the judicial, legal, medical, educational sectors. Yeah, and kind of tentacles out everywhere, wasn't she? She. Really. Was she? Yeah. Rayna, With Rayna, the way she went about it was she actually started sleeping with his gardener.

23:37 Yeah. And and was getting the gardener to feed her information. She actually used that information to really hook Rainer in. She said she knocked on his door one night and basically declared herself to him as clairvoyant. She said. I know you're going overseas to India soon and your wife is going to get very, very sick while you're over there. Shock horror. Who the fuck? Doesn't get sick when they go to a third world country I. Mean what? You're gonna get dysentery. What? Who? Was Wow. Apparently Rayner's wife actually got a really bad case.

24:12 It's just. Really. Be So it's in Rayner's eyes. He's like this woman. Like she predicted. She knew that I was going overseas. How would she have known that? I don't know. The garden might have told her. And that her, his his wife's gonna get sick in a country that what, everyone gets sick. And if they go there when they can't live somewhere else. Shouldn't predict shit. No, but he was very, very sucked in. Very much so. They say that people who become a part of a cult are often really intelligent people.

24:39 I. Find that and shocking. Well, they, the psychology around it is that being so intelligent, they think there's no way that they would fall for being in a cult. So they're a lot more easily manipulated. It make, I know it's kind of a little bit counterintuitive, yeah, isn't it? But like the other thing is, do these people not have friends? Like if you came to me and went spiritual healer. I just imagined me doing. Yeah, yeah, totally. I'd like Meg slap some sense into you, please. Come on. Did she?

25:07 Do these people have no one around them to go reality? Check. Yeah. Everyone knew you were going to India. Someone would have told her or you know, and everyone gets sick when they go there, surely. Let's have a look at this a little bit critically. Yeah. And as a scientist, that's the way he should have been looking at things. You would think so, but he was obviously open to this. And, I mean, what does he get from it? Like, he's obviously getting something from it as well. Well, yeah. Was there a sexual element to their relationship?

25:38 Well apparently he was happily married, but I you get the sense that there was potentially more to and and her and his relationship. Fully get that sense, I reckon. I mean, I've got no proof of this, but I I just, I feel like there was a lot more because he was. So. Into her. Yeah, yeah, he was. I mean, he and did end up marrying the gardener. Yeah. They were only married for a year. It was clearly a marriage of convenience in terms of the the information she was getting and everything. Yes, yeah, it.

26:07 Didn't, it didn't last, But, yeah. But Raynaud certainly stuck around for many, many years. Yeah, there was, yeah. As we say, there was no official evidence of them having a relationship, but. And definitely was able to manipulate him and had a lot of power over him. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Maybe she had like a magical vagina and he just, like, you know, couldn't help it. The cult went on for 60 years. If you're still running today, well. Really it is. I'm sort of closing it off at 1993 when, you know, it sort of and to.

26:44 It wasn't even the end, but as you say, it's still going on to this day. But realistically, with Anne at the helm, yeah. It went on for 60 years. Yeah. It's essentially unchecked. Like it's a long, long time. Yeah. That's 1963 to 1993. They were. So they'd recruited all of these nurses, these doctors. Politicians. Politicians, they had nurse people from like Anset, like the owners of Anset Airlines in Australia. They had some really influential people. But we is that, you know, they have access to things.

27:15 You had to do what they did like and managed to. Yeah. Falsify documents. Yeah. But then these people were all wealthy, which meant that when Anne, being the leader of the cult, took portions of their wages, it was a fair bit of money. And so she ended up accruing about a wealth of about $50 million. In the end, she had. Properties all over the world. Crazy. Yeah, when she was. Cold. I'm like, it sounds like good money. Actually, maybe we should. Maybe that's not the worst idea ever. She was arrested at a property in like, upstate New York, which they aren't.

27:50 Which? A large property. Massive and all beautiful properties like the property at Lake Eldon if you if you do a bit of a Google. The five acres, Yeah. And it's. Absolutely stunning. Like the property is absolutely stunning. Well. The children certainly weren't living in. Luxury, though, no, they were not. They absolutely were not. So the property up in Ilden was called Up Top or Kai Lama. If you wanna have a look at it, have a look into it and look at photos. Yeah. Beautiful parts of the world that they owned homes in.

28:21 Yeah. I mean, Ferny Creek, Linda, they're all very beautiful spots. Very. Yeah, but also secluded in some ways. Like they're not the easiest places to get to. They're dirt roads. They're very, very forest. Forest. Yeah. Is she? Yeah, yeah. Beautiful places, but hard to get to in lots of ways. So because she had access to doctors and whatever she would get them to prescribe or not even legally, but obtain LSD and they would use the LSD to really on board people and really get them to, you know, drink the kool-aid essentially and and think that and was Jesus re Incarnate?

29:02 Yeah, they, what they would do is they would give, they would inject people with LSD, which has more of an effect on the body. When they were coming towards the end of their trip, Anne would appear in a white cloak with a light behind her and they'd get a bucket of dry ice so that they'd be like a bit of smoke coming up. And she would come, they would keep them in a dark room while they were going through these LSD trips. She would come into the room and people, yeah, float and people would literally think they were seeing Jesus Christ.

29:36 Yep. Embodied in an Hamilton birth. Thing where I get a little bit like that that's not one person being able to like you don't it's not one person operating all of that like to have the who's going out and buying the dry ice who's who's getting that the blowout the smoke blows blow the smoke out who's operating all of the machinery right in the background yeah there's more than one person on board here for this to be a setup that's. And why are they not? Why are they not recognizing that and going, oh, this is a bit fucked up?

30:04 Like, if you could actually do this for real, why aren't you doing it for real? Yeah. Why are we having to drug people? But there's no, again, it's going back to that critical thinking. They're just going along with whatever she says. Yeah, doing whatever she says. Things start to turn really problematic at this point because they start to acquire. I'm going to say acquire, kidnap, whatever, steal, steal children. And the way they go about doing this, the first child they stole was from a, a woman, a girl actually, she was 16 years old at the time named Sarah Moore.

30:37 Her first child, first pregnancy, she was. And the girl was Sarah. Yeah, sorry. This girl was Sarah. Sorry. The baby was Sarah. Sorry. You're absolutely right. Yeah. The mother was 16. Yes. Yeah, she was an unwed mum. She'd been disowned by her family. So she was because she was pregnant and unwed, the father had fucked off the father of the baby and so she's on her own giving birth. She's incredibly vulnerable and had recruited doctors and nurses at this particular hospital and once she delivered her baby girl named Sarah, they tranquilized her or sedated her and stole her baby put.

31:23 A pillow over her head? Yep, and it was awful. They literally stole that baby off her. And the mum felt like she had no recourse. She had nobody to go to. She was 16 years old. She's just given birth. The nurses and doctors have told her that they've taken the baby to a better place and. This would be the right thing for you. Yeah. And what? Oh my God, I can't even imagine how traumatic that would be for that poor young girl. No. Awful. So Sarah is, I guess, the first stolen child to join into the cult.

31:55 Yeah. And all of her. So she's got all of her doctors and nurses in the hospital doing that part of it and taking the baby physically. And then she's got under her, she's got lawyers, etcetera to then do the documentation to go with it. Yeah. And make sure that then it's all looking like it's legal. Yeah, none of it was actually legal, obviously. No, but they, she had documentation, falsified documentation for them. So Sarah didn't actually know that Anne wasn't her biological mum until she was a teenager.

32:24 Can you imagine finding out that information as a teen, like when you're already undergoing an identity crisis and, you know, wanting to figure out who you are and how you fit into the world? Yeah. And she's now, you know, having to also come to terms with the fact that the person she thought was her biological mum is not. In some ways, I'd be, like, stoked, though, to find out that that then the and the perpetrator of much abuse wasn't my mother. Yeah. But at the same time, well, who the hell is?

32:52 And what the hell happened to her? And how why did she let me go? Why? You know, the questions in your brain would just be rolling around. Absolutely. But she, I mean, Anne was so convincing. We're not convincing really of this, but she when a new baby would be, you know, coming, she would dress and fake her pregnancy basically and wear a fake belly so that the the children, all, you know, very young and impressionable, would see Anne with her belly and everything and believe that there was a baby coming another and she was having and another sibling was on the way.

33:23 And the next thing a baby would appear, you know, so she's had a baby. And in actual fact, they'd just stolen another one. So yeah, there was two ways of them gaining their children. Obviously there was her stealing them from the hospitals from young unwed mothers very illegally and have falsifying documents. But there was also people within the cult that she would convince to hand their children over to her. And then these they were all raised as if they were and children and that she had birthed them.

33:52 She would she in one documentary, I think it was a non documentary. I mean, just in 60 minutes interview where she said that she had birthed eight or nine children, I'd lost count or something. I think she almost said like eight or nine, which is completely false. She had one biological child and that and she was not one of these ones that was at up top. Yeah. That, that blows my mind. Oh yeah, I've just sort of lost count of how many biological children I've had because I stole so many as well.

34:17 So but she so she ended up with there was 14 children who were stolen and she gave them all the same surname of Hamilton Byrne. Yep. Another fourteen of the children were given the surname Foster, and they were all children who had been given to her by cult members. So that meant that there were children that were running around in this up top and and round in and Linda, whose parents would genuine biological parents were coming in and out of the of of the place, you know, being involved in the this cult.

34:52 But we're not recognizing that child as their child, because that child was now Anne's child. Blows my mind I. Don't even imagine. Can't but OK to give your child up for adoption is one thing OK, for whatever reason that may be, Yep. But to then actually be present in that child. And these are not formal adoptions by any means, were they? So to then be present in that child's life day-to-day, because a lot of these mums were actually what what the cult would call aunties and they would work in shifts around the clock to look after these children like the however many of them there were in the end of 28.

35:33 And so the children thought that these women were their aunties and some of them it was actually their biological mum. And the the aunties would actually perpetrate the violence on the children as directed by Anne, and they would perpetrate that on their own children. Yeah, so and so into that leading into that of like the the abuse on the children. Yeah. The reason for the abuse of things was that they needed to keep these children secluded, that they they were special because under Anne's belief of what was going to happen was that the world was going to end and these children were going to be who were going to repopulate the Earth.

36:14 So the idea was that there was going to be some sort of natural disaster, World War three, Armageddon. Yeah, Armageddon was going to come wipe out the entire planet of human life other than these 28 children who were then to repopulate the Earth. So she educated these children, highly educated them. They were all very intelligent. However they were narrowly taught in terms of what the world was. They were informed that police and other people outside of their compound were evil and that they were basically these special human beings who needed to be protected from the outside world.

36:53 But they were also then really kept in line of like and they had to behave a certain way. And so obviously for them to not, they didn't want them looking outside of the cult. So they would punish them at any sign of them stepping out of line. But that boundary that would be set in terms of what was stepping out of line would be moved all the time. So these kids would be forever trying to keep themselves from getting punished because the punishment was horrific. But it was always changing. So like I remember there was a story where the, a teacher had come in to run school for the day, leaving the, the, the building had got to his car and realized, oh, where have my paintbrushes gone?

37:33 I can't find them. So the aunties have bailed all the kids up to say, right, where are the where are the paintbrushes? Where are the paintbrushes? They didn't know where they were. So they started getting out buckets of water. And this was not the only occasion this happened on. This was a regular form of torch that they used, bucket of water and they would dunk the kids head in the bucket for 1520 seconds. Pull the kids head out. Where are the paint brushes? I don't know. I don't know. I didn't, I haven't touched them.

38:01 Head back in the bucket, 20 more seconds, you know, pull his head, pull their head out, say and again, again. And this went on for hours. It turned out the teacher had dropped the paint brushes on the way to his car, so these kids legitimately didn't do anything. No kids should be put through that torture regardless of that, but they they would just be relentlessly tortured in these moments like this. It was just horrific. It was, they were. The children were like being bred or whatever to be a white master race to save the world.

38:33 Mm, hmm. She dyed the hair blonde. A lot of them, so that they'd look the same. They were modelled on the Von Trapp family. They wanted them to be perfect in perfect matching clothes. They weren't allowed to, you know, take a step out of line, as you said, otherwise they would be really severely punished. They would even record, Sorry, put my time I can propaganda videos. And so like, basically from the outside world, people would see these videos and think that, you know, oh, it's so fabulous. That's what these children are just lovely and they're so smart.

39:05 And she would literally have them marching around and parading as if they were. Yeah, the von Trapps. It was quite, quite revolting because the cult did grow to a number of 500 members in 1978. And it's always my mind. That's incredible. And they did spread across the world a little bit too. There were a few dotted around outside of Australia that were also members, so I mean 500 members sending in their money and. Yeah, I mean, that's how she masked a $50 million fortune over the 60 years, I guess.

39:35 Crazy, crazy. Anne's third husband was. He actually had a family and a wife when he met Anne. She convinced him to leave her. Yep. Yep, and then he became an equal abuser in the whole situation. I wonder what his temperament and personality was like before meeting her. Yeah, got to wonder. I mean, because she had convinced a lot of these men in her in the cult that they were reincarnations of the apostles. So, you know, like that Rayner was John the Baptist. Yeah. So I can't remember if Bill had been named an apostle.

40:09 Or I'm not sure actually. But yeah, there was. She certainly had her her core men in the group. And this is the thing, she had a lot of manipulation. Manipulation over men. Yeah. I mean, she was, I guess, by all standards, very beautiful. I think I mentioned before that she was very vain and she certainly had lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of cosmetic surgeries and procedures to maintain that perceived beauty. It it didn't last long. No, because when she was older, there's an interview that Karl Stefanovic does with her.

40:40 I think that was the 60 Minutes interview, was it? Yeah, Yeah. And she looks shocking. There's nothing about her in that video that you look at and go, oh, she's very beautiful. No, she's plastic. Earlier in her in days where there's photos of her, you kinda go. Yeah, she was beautiful. She was beautiful. I think she ruined herself with all these plastic. So she probably had she'd let herself age gracefully. She probably could have been quite beautiful well into her her lady years. But yeah, that that video, she looks full creep.

41:05 She does look like a full creeper. Yeah, I mean she is. The voice and everything is. Yeah. And I hate the way in that, in that interview that she never answers a question. So Carl will ask her a direct question and she skirts her. She never answers. I could. I actually got so frustrated with it I couldn't end up watching the end of it. Is it Bill in the background? He jumps in every now and then. Yeah, he's like, but this happened but Oh no, don't forget and don't ask this and you can't. Oh, he's yeah.

41:29 I mean he's again in it's her magical vagina again. She so the cult members were all vegetarians. She also prided herself on making sure that the children were very well nourished in that they weren't allowed to eat anything that may potentially tarnish their perfect little body. But. There's another reason for that, too. Yeah. I mean, lack of protein impacts the brain and therefore your ability to make decisions and, you know, really understand what's being done and sit around you. That with a lack of carbohydrates as well.

42:02 They, they didn't have much, you know, they had didn't have much sustenance. She justified it by saying, oh, they live such a healthy life. But literally all they were living off was vegetables, fruit and a few leg and even that few little legumes. And it was rationed absolutely that the kids were starving. Yeah. There was a story of one of the children who was, she was sort of a little bit of a rebel in the group, but she would leave and go to other houses around the compound. So was Sarah the oldest one?

42:29 That was, Sarah was. It yeah, I mean, 'cause you gotta, I mean, I, I from a baby taking a baby, you can mould and manipulate a baby. They do grow up and they do grow their own brains and as much as like she can control them as much as possible when they're younger. I think Sarah got to sort of that age of 1516 and was like, this is not right. Like, you know, and she did venture off and, yeah, she was stealing from the neighbours to get food. And yeah, yeah. So she was the one who eventually she befriended some girls in the local area with when she was venturing out and obviously there was a lot of talk in amongst the locals.

43:04 Oh, they'd have to have known something. They were always going on there on. Earth is this place. And what's going on? Yeah, they all realised that there was children there. And I mean, and all that something, I mean, they'll put in these propaganda. Oh my God, I can't say that word. Propaganda. Propaganda, new video is out. So it wasn't, they weren't like they were hidden in that sense. They were. We are here. But, you know, for valid reasons. There's what they sort of put out there. Yeah. But the locals were all talk of, you know, this is a bit weird and what's going on out here.

43:27 And the cops would go out there and check things and that on the other occasion, yeah. The other thing that I find interesting, and I'm hoping you can speak a little bit more to this as well-being that you're a teacher, but Kyle Lama in 1984, so up top was registered as a school. They would be subject to inspections and accreditation, surely, I mean, as as part of that process. Yeah. Nothing was picked up like nothing was looked like why? How? Yeah, so the guy is the guy that went out from the education department and checked on the school to see how it was all operating to make sure it was ticking all the boxes, what they require.

44:03 Yep. He thought the place was fantastic. He gave it all the red, all the ticks, actually went back to the education department I believe and went we should be modelling more schools on this. It's. Amazing the cult. Possibly, possibly was because they did, you know, have tentacles out into the education department. There were certainly teachers that were cult members and obviously came out to the to the the compound there and and taught the children. Yep, there was many teachers involved, but I wouldn't.

44:29 Yeah, I don't know whether this specific person was part of the cult, but he went out there and saw very well behaved children, which they all love. We all got to fit into a. Box that's I was going to say that's got to have red razor red flag all. These days, yeah, maybe not back then, fair call. I mean, the kids were incredibly intelligent. So I guess in terms of the education that was happening there, if you looked at it in terms of meeting the curriculum, they were. They're probably exceeding.

44:54 What? They're well exceeding what that was expecting. So in those in that aspect, I think he was like, yeah, this is great. The fact that they all had dyed blonde hair, they were all in the same clothing and all had the same surname didn't set off any alarm bells. That's what I find bizarre. But no, didn't. So they, they got the tick of approval from the Education Department for that. Yeah, there's a few other issues in terms of the Education department as well of how things got involved there, because there is, it was also the issue where one particular school in Melbourne that needed some work done and they contracted, they put the tender out and particular cult members got the one, the tender.

45:33 And there was A and if he was looked into very deeply in terms of whether there was some

45:41 conflict of interest in terms of how they got the tender and did the works. So there's and it was, it was like a $2,000,000, two million dollar job. I mean, back in the day, in this year, in this time, Oh wow, it was a big job. So there was a lot of money then they were making out of it and it was cult members that were all handing jobs off to each other. So, right. OK. Yeah. So it's a lot, a lot goes a lot deeper. Yeah, yeah. Potentially, I just find that really interesting that like, you know, you think and like a government organization like the Department of Education, they'd have a bit of an I'd like they'd walk into that and go something just seems a bit awry here.

46:20 But no, anyway, that's it is what it is. Nothing got picked up at the time and they were allowed to continue operating as a as a OH. As a high quality school, yeah, yeah. Question marks I would have thought, but any? Question marks now, I guess we can kind of come now to when the like when the cult, well, when Anne kind of got discovered so or and things kind of started coming to an end. So I guess that began with Sarah. Yeah. And her venturing out and yeah, as we said, stealing from local homes.

46:57 I guess that sort of alerted the locals. But she ended up, because of her stealing, Anne ended up banishing her from the cult. So she was left with nowhere to go. So she went to these locals that she knew and they took her in. And then one of another little girl, Leanne from the group also went looking for Sarah then because she was like, well, hang on a second, If she can get out, maybe I can get out. And she went hunting for for Sarah. She found her. They so these two girls were ended up at this person's house in the local area telling the parents of these friends that they had met what went on in the in the cult Who and thankfully the parents went.

47:36 Well, I'm going to go to the police. Yeah. So they went off to the police and and the police investigated it and they did get the kids out. So in 1987, they did a massive raid. 1997, Was it 90? No 87? Yeah. No, it was Friday the 14th of August in 1990. Seven, 1987. Was that odd? Definitely 87. OK, 87. Yep. Because I remember, because I'm old and I remember it. Yeah, 1987. So yeah, 1987 they raided the Kailama and yeah, got these children out who then all were all at this time explained to them that Anne isn't your mother.

48:15 And some of them then had to find who their parents were. And some of them found that, yeah, they were cult member, cult members were their parents. And yet when they were not told, and they say they could actually they knew then who their parent was. Other children though, had to then go for hunting to try and find who their parent could be. And finding the records, not being being there, that could really help them out to find who their parents were. Called finding that the records that they could find were actually falsified and they didn't have real information on them.

48:45 So Lexter Mann was the Victorian police detective who sort of ended up being the the lead investigator on on this case. He calls Anne the most evil person I've ever come across. They and it obviously caught wind that things were starting to happen and she'd actually fled overseas to England 1st and then made her way across the across to the USI find her. Escape. Interesting in that sense. She went overseas like that. Basically any cult leader, like the, you know, she's predicting something that's going to occur in the future and when the future comes and it doesn't happen.

49:24 So she predicted that roughly mid 80s, yeah, the world was going to end. So. And when the mid 80s came and went and there was no end of the world, she was I guess in a position of, well, how else do I keep this going and how do I continue this false information? Yeah, that she's gone, I'm out kind of thing, which she she ran the cult still from overseas, but very much more less impactful, I guess on the day-to-day so that it wasn't questioned. She couldn't be questioned by them being well hang on a second, like hold on about this time again coming.

49:55 Sorry, what day and time did you say? Yeah, they but they did just still continue following her orders from overseas while she. Was giving her their money and. Yep, Yeah. It's. It's absolutely bizarre. Yeah. So in 1993, she was arrested when she was in the US She was there with Bill in UPS in one of their properties, as we were saying before, in upstate New York. The property is stunning. Like, absolutely gorgeous. Yeah, I love the way that she was caught though, or the way that they arrested her.

50:24 The FBI agent, I can't remember the name of the agent, but she's, she's a kick ass woman. He went into the back of a mail delivery truck and was like a bit Incognito. So she wasn't in any FBI get up. She was just in her civvies and she delivered the mail to Anne's letterbox and she basically just waited for Anne to come out to collect the mail and arrested her right there. So she had, Anne had absolutely no idea what was coming. She had no makeup on. She was not. I think she was even in her pajamas when she was arrested.

50:57 Love that because again, being someone so vain, I'm sure she wouldn't have liked to have been seen without her makeup. Bill was also arrested at the same time and they were popped into, popped into jail. And in the jail cell next to Bill, somebody got really brutally beaten up by the cops. So. By the OH by the I. Believe, I believe it was by the police officers like so you know, it was pretty, you know, dicey. And so Bill basically said to Ann, oh, we've got to take this plea deal that the Aussies are offering us to be extradited back to Australia to face basically faced the crimes that they'd perpetrated.

51:36 Yeah. And so, yeah, they're like, shit, I'm out of here. So they jump on a on a plane back to Melbourne. Yeah. But unfortunately, the worst that came of it for them was a $5000 fine for forging documentation. They were never and still to this day have never been tried or convicted of any of the stealing or kidnapping of the children of the cult, any acts of violence or any illegal activities that the cult participated in. Nobody has been held accountable for that. And part of that was due to the fact they didn't want to put the children through the trauma of sitting through trial and giving evidence.

52:17 But surely that means there's got to be a way in which we can run our court systems that allows victims to not be very traumatized, but at the same time give evidence. Yeah. I mean, I think that's a big, big discussion that would need to happen because you're absolutely right. In these circumstances, why is it that the victims have to, you know, as you say, re traumatize themselves in order to be able to get the justice that they absolutely deserve? I don't know. Yeah. But there's got to be a better way of doing it.

52:47 But at the minute, our system is imperfect. Yeah, it's the best that we've got at the minute. And yeah, just sort of the way it the way it ended up. So the eldest, Sarah, this is sort of now a little bit more about, you know, the kids and where they are now. Yeah. Sarah Moore, who was formerly Sarah Hamilton Byrne, she went to medical school and became a doctor. And then I think that just shows just how incredibly intelligent she was and the drive that she would have to have to put herself through medical school and, and really, you know, that's what an amazing achievement for her.

53:25 But she was a very tortured young girl, young woman. She was self prescribing fentanyl and she made several attempts on her life in her sort of in her 20s. I'm not sure if we mentioned it but the use of the LSD wasn't just limited to adults in the cult. We should say it was used on the children too, which I can't even imagine then the impact of that. Yeah, and the prolonged use over time, like in growing bodies, who knows? Sarah actually died in her early 40s of heart issues related to her drug past.

54:00 Yeah, and as you said, the LSD absolutely would have played into that and as well as the abuse. She lost a limb too. Didn't. She Yeah, that was that was as a result of one of the attempts on her life. That's right. Yeah, the other person in this case, who I just have a really soft spot for, there's a lot he's done a lot of media. There's a lot of radio interviews with him. He has his own website called Rescue the Family and you can see a lot of his media appearances on there and you can watch them, listen to them on there.

54:30 I actually came across him in an in, in an episode of Insight on SBS in Australia. And it's an interview sort of style where they have a different case each week. And he was on it talking about the fact that he'd been involved in a cult. And I just I, he is such a gentle and lovely man. He's got a family of his own now and he's he's just an incredible person. And he found out that one of the aunties was his mum. In the process of of sort of everything sort of unraveling, he had a really difficult time coming to terms with all of this.

55:08 And he speaks very, very openly about that. And he also talks about how the effect physically on children who've been involved in these traumatic situations, like he was saying a depletion in growth hormone over his life. He was always very little. And then once he was, you know, put into a foster family where he was nourished and he was able to experience life and everything that had to offer, He actually had this like really big growth spurt and he really flourished. And he really has made an A wonderful life for himself.

55:43 He just can't imagine what what all of these children went through. That's it. I mean, there unfortunately, there's some really sad stories these around number of the children that, you know, that grew up and from the impact of what happened there and others have made, you know, great lives for themselves. Like not not as many, not as many as you'd like to. I think unfortunately, it's quite sad because there's also their role and effect of those kids who, I mean, there was the 28 core children that were at the cult, but also that were either stolen or you know, handed over to them.

56:11 But there's also the outliers of just members of the cult. There's families that were members of the cult and these and that who had children who were raised in particular ways with a very weird belief growing up too. So there was many young people impacted who didn't have a choice about being involved in all of this. And as we said, the cult is still running today. I believe that the average age of the member of the cult is quite you know, it's over. 80, I think like that, literally the average age.

56:36 So that means they've had no new recruits in forever, which is? Great news 'cause it will die out eventually, I assume then yeah. But I mean, they're still active and up until 20/19 with Anne living, she was living in a an aged home care, aged care facility not far from us at all, all very much around the corner. Yeah. And cult members would come and do her hair and they would take her laundry and go and wash it and bring it back. So they're very much still bowing down to her as if she's Jesus Christ, which, come on people, Armageddon.

57:06 It never happens. If you've been indoctrinated into this and you're you've just lived your entire life like that and you're that old, you'd probably just be like, yeah, I'll just keep going. Keep this pretense up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. Yeah. So it's an interesting one. But yeah, Anne died aged 97. Yeah. Yeah, well, goodbye. Bye. Bye. Yeah. So a brutal and bizarre cult. It was. Absolutely is was. Yeah, Yeah. I got looking into this though, in terms of the cult, and I sort of went down a bit of a rabbit hole because I am, I'm intrigued by cults, always have been.

57:42 I just find it fascinating, as we were saying earlier, about why people join these cults and what is so attractive to it, Why? What manipulates them? How do they so easily become manipulated to these things. I ended up finding some stuff out about there was a theory. There is a theory out there that this could have been an offshoot of something that was created in America with the CIA. Go on. Yeah, Sorry, I don't know if you've ever heard of MK Ultra. Yes. Yeah. So MK Ultra was, it was a program developed by the CIA about looking into mind control and it was developed in a roundabout 1953, which is roughly when, yeah, this all started with N And so it was illegal human experiments to identify drugs that could be used to used during interrogations to weaken individuals for force and forced them to confess basically.

58:40 So they were doing all these really illegal studies on people and finding ways what they would do would be they would be under the guise of like research. They would infiltrate organizations such as universities, hospitals. So it kind of connects up with like maybe someone like Rina. Were they using LSD? They were using LSD. That was their key drug that they were using in the program. So they use lots of different variations on brainwashing and psychological torture. OK, but it all involved using LSD.

59:12 Wow. So when you look at it from the perspective maybe like the CIA wanting to infiltrate various places to test out their theory, it's possible that they were getting people on board, like a Rayner to kind of go, well, how can we get more clients? How can we, you know, access more people? And it was completely illegal and unethical. That could explain or give some more weight behind why Rayner fell for things fell for an hook clients. Maybe he was researching. Yeah, like maybe and feeding research back to the CIA around.

59:47 Yeah, it when I was reading more and more about it, I was like, well, maybe there's something to this. Maybe. I guess we'll never know though, will we? No, absolutely not. But also a little, another little connection there to that and to another case that we will most definitely look at down the track. It has been suggested and well, not even just suggested, but there are definite, there's definite evidence of a particular Charles Manson being involved in CIA research. Yes. He's actually linked to four different research projects with the CIA rumoured to be with four.

1:00:22 Two have been proven. There are documents linking him to CIA research and Wheatley enough. His cult was called The Family. Family. So there's possibility that he was also doing similar sorts of things within his cult, using drugs to to affect people in different ways. So is it? Is this actually the branch off of the CI AM K Ultra project? That is so interesting. Oh, I love a good conspiracy theory. I mean, I depending on the conspiracy totally. I mean with you, but. There's lots of documentation of this MK Ultra.

1:01:02 Yeah, in action. It's not they. Well, it was shut down in like 19. I wanna say 1973 ish. OK, yeah, 1973 it was shut down. However, there were offshoots from that. So it kept running under different names completely illegally. What they were doing. It was so unethical and that so when they when they did shut it down in 1973, the head of the CIA actually said burn everything. And so they got rid of a lot of the documentation. But there are documents that have been found that track this MK Ultra. And I have got some screenshots of some documents that are fully mind blowing of like the unethical nature of this project.

1:01:40 They knew what they were doing was completely illegal and unethical. Yeah. So maybe when we do our Charles Manson case, we can get into that even even more so. Totally if there's proven links. There. Yeah. Stay tuned for that. Yeah, bring it on. Yeah, Very interesting. Yeah. Yeah, well, I guess that brings us to the end of the Anne Hamilton Byrne saga. My God, it's a it's a crazy one, but thank you to everybody who's joined us all the way through to the end. Would really love it if everyone can give us a bit of a like and if you can subscribe to our channel in your podcasting app, it really goes a long way in helping us get a little bit more reach and, you know, being able to see, you know, have other people listen to us for sure.

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1:03:00 But we have got a lot to cover there. So yeah, let's get our detective hats on and get going on that one looking. Forward to it. Yeah, that deep dive, that one. Oh my God, there's so much there. So much. Anyway, we look forward to everyone joining us next week and thank you for joining this week. Thanks everyone, see you later. See you next week. Stay curious. Crime besties.

1:03:36 I'll just put a pin a mark in now. Yeah. Should we clap? Yeah, just for you, Peter.