Episode 10 - Phillip Island

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties here for another episode and

0:19 welcome Emma. Thank you, Meg.

0:21 It I'm a bit excited to do today's episode because we're

0:25 doing a case that I have been intrigued by for a very, very,

0:29 very long time. So I'm really looking forward to

0:32 this one. Yeah, I feel like this one's

0:34 really your jam. I I am very intrigued by this,

0:37 this one. As I said to you before, though,

0:38 I get frustrated with this case, but I know you're really on top

0:41 of this one. So I'm I'm, I'm waiting for.

0:43 I wanna hear what your perspective on this is and see

0:45 where it's taken You for sure. All right.

0:48 You right. OK, before we get into the case,

0:51 let's have a chat about, I don't know, what have you been up to

0:53 this week? I mean, we are recording a

0:55 little bit ahead of ahead of when the episodes are released.

0:58 So we're actually on school holidays at the minute and being

1:02 that you're a teacher, you're on holiday two.

1:04 I'm. I'm not.

1:08 No, I have to say I, I'm, I'm really happy with my life

1:13 choices in in. This is about the only time I'm

1:15 happy with my life choices in terms of my career.

1:19 And it's one of the reasons why I don't move from what I'm doing

1:22 currently because I'm not in the classroom or anything, but I

1:24 still get school holidays. But I'm like, I'm not going any

1:26 further in my career because I don't want to anywhere else.

1:28 I go lose school holidays and while my kids are the age they

1:31 are, it, it makes a whole lot easier being at home.

1:35 I mean, I, I have the opposite guilt trip.

1:36 I often feel like, Oh, my kids are missing out and doing, you

1:39 know, holiday care programs or something, you know, there's

1:43 deprived children. But they, they firmly bring me

1:45 back into line, though, if I ever do book them into something

1:47 'cause they let me know they don't like doing them.

1:49 Yeah, no, that's I do enjoy my school holidays, but I am

1:52 really, really conscious of all my most of my friends who are

1:55 not teachers or work in the industry where they get school

1:58 holidays and you have to still manage work and kids at home.

2:02 I bet it is an entire nightmare. And I do feel for you,

2:05 absolutely. We're we're really lucky we get

2:08 some family help on on certain days over the school holidays.

2:11 And Peter, my husband, took a couple of days off off this time

2:15 to take the kids to do something fun on the days that I was

2:18 working. But today he just had one of

2:20 those situations where Peter had to go into the office.

2:24 Is the office to get drunk? Do you before you're at the

2:25 farmers market? He literally just walked in.

2:28 We're recording this at night on a Thursday night and he just

2:31 walked in from work. It's 8, 44 PM and and he walked

2:37 in these tipsy ass. So I don't know, you know, had

2:41 to go into the office. I'll have to interrogate him

2:43 further on that later. I reckon he knew about that

2:45 farmers market in the foyer well before today.

2:48 Something tells me he might be. Right.

2:50 He might have been the one that pulled the fire alarm that

2:52 pulled him down to the foyer to find out that it was there.

2:54 Probably. Probably no, but then what it

2:58 meant was because we had no other, there were no other

3:01 options really. I ended up at home with the two

3:04 kids today and they were actually really, really good.

3:08 But Oh my God, it was retriggering.

3:10 It was like Covad 2 point or whatever.

3:13 We're up to now when we're in Victoria, something like that.

3:16 Yeah. And I'm like, oh God, it, I

3:19 think, I think I was already heightened or it's retriggering

3:22 or something. So I was already feeling pretty

3:24 like about it. I don't like working from home

3:26 generally. I much prefer going into the

3:29 office. But yeah, it was just one of

3:31 those days. It was a long day and as I said,

3:34 the kids did well, but by the end of the day I was like.

3:36 I'm. Online, I need, you know, I need

3:40 some time out, something like that.

3:42 That's all right. They you know, it is tomorrow is

3:45 the last day of the school holidays and I don't work

3:47 Fridays, so we'll do something. Fine.

3:50 I think we're just going to go and see a movie because I think

3:52 the weather's meant to be pretty ordinary.

3:55 Yeah. So we're just going to go and

3:56 see a movie. It'll be good.

3:57 What are you going to see? We're going to see if.

4:00 I want to see that. Maybe I'll tag along.

4:02 You are more than welcome to because I'm actually taking two

4:05 extra kids too. Oh, maybe.

4:07 I don't want to Michael are keen on saying if like they.

4:10 I think actually Mason might get upset if I go without him, but

4:12 he definitely would not be upset if I went without him.

4:15 Yeah, I better wait. I'm just, I'm just going for

4:18 Ryan Reynolds. Let's be.

4:19 Let's be honest, I. Don't really care about.

4:22 Waiting to go. The only reason I know anything

4:24 about a Pokémon movie. Yeah.

4:26 Totally, totally fair. Yeah, all.

4:29 Right, Should we get into today's The Place, do you

4:30 reckon? I think we might.

4:32 Might. We should.

4:33 We should, yeah. So today we are talking about

4:36 the Phillip Island murder and I guess surrounding mystery

4:40 because there is a party involved in this and we don't

4:44 actually know what what ended up happening to her.

4:46 And it still hasn't been part of the part of the crime and part

4:49 of the mystery still hasn't been solved.

4:51 And that's the bit that I find incredibly intriguing.

4:54 And that's why I really, really wanted to do this case.

4:56 So Phillip Island a an island that is about it's about 140 KS

5:04 from Melbourne CBD in Victoria, Australia.

5:09 It is accessed by 1 bridge onto an island and I think it or back

5:15 certainly back when this crime happened, which was in 1986,

5:20 there were about 4000 permanent residents on the island.

5:23 But during summer time it can explode and you know, I think

5:29 quadrupled the population during that time.

5:32 It's a really beautiful place to go.

5:35 It's famous for. I mean, it's got beautiful

5:37 beaches and especially it's got some surf beaches.

5:40 Good surf, beaches, Yeah. Yeah, and it has the world's

5:44 largest population of fairy Penguins that come.

5:47 Up No, no, little Penguins, little Penguins, little

5:49 Penguins, correct. Sorry, sorry.

5:53 I've. Actually written little Penguins

5:54 in my notes and I, you know, can't take the girl out of 1985

6:00 S the little Penguins. But yeah, it's the largest

6:04 colony in the world. Live on Phillip Island and come

6:08 up onto the beach every day and we live really close.

6:11 Well, you know, 100 odd KS away. And I don't know about you Meg,

6:15 but when we were kids we'd go down to Phillip Island for

6:17 family holidays and go to the Penguin parade and watch them

6:21 waddle up to the beach. I've been recently with my kids

6:24 and my God it's had a glow up. Big time.

6:28 I mean, I really, I've done it twice because yeah, Philippine

6:30 wasn't somewhere we went as kids often.

6:32 It was somewhere I went for surfing a bit later in my

6:34 teenage years, but not so much as a family.

6:36 And probably I went must mean about, I'm gonna say like early

6:40 2000s, I went and did the Penguin parade.

6:42 And then again, I've just gone in the last couple of years and

6:46 yeah, a bit different. There's definitely a lot more to

6:48 it. And gosh, the facilities are

6:50 insane when you walk in there now.

6:53 But but oh God, it's the most freaking cutest thing you've

6:56 ever seen. Then come out the beach and

6:58 going to their Burrows and their little babies and yeah.

7:02 That's so cute. I highly recommend who hasn't

7:05 been to do it, you know, go and do it.

7:06 Or if you, you know, if you're coming into Melbourne, I would

7:09 put it on the the bucket list for sure.

7:12 Yeah, it's really, really good fun.

7:13 Although if you're going to do it in winter, take every thermal

7:17 and warm warm clothing item you can get your hands on because

7:20 in. November last and oh, my God,

7:22 I've never been that cold. I've been in the snow, like, and

7:25 this was colder than that, sitting on the beach waiting for

7:26 them to come up the beach because it can take a long time

7:28 come up. Sometimes they come up earlier.

7:30 There's no like, you know, they don't have a clock.

7:32 So you can be there sitting there for a while waiting for

7:33 them to come at the beach. And God, it gets cold.

7:35 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

7:37 Pro Tip Island is known for is it's race track.

7:41 So it's got a giant race track and there's a Moto GP that's

7:44 held there every year and I think they do some super car

7:47 racing or something else as well.

7:49 Those different events attract, you know, even more tourists to

7:53 the area. But the beaches there are just

7:56 lovely to swim in and in the summertime, if you go down to

7:59 the to cows and have a swim along the foreshore there, it's,

8:03 it's a really nice spot. So that's where the scene, I

8:08 guess of today's murder and and other crimes takes place.

8:13 It sort of sets the scene a little bit.

8:15 It's quite an isolated area in that there is one bridge from

8:20 the mainland over to Phillip Island, one way in and one way

8:23 out. And I think they've only just

8:25 recently in the last few years expanded the bridge to be 3

8:28 lanes, but it used to be one lane in, one lane out.

8:31 So that kind of gives a little bit of context as to, you know,

8:35 how, how the whole island is set up.

8:37 Yeah, yeah. So the case.

8:40 So I guess we should mention this is the Phillip Island where

8:43 the famous Hemsworth brothers are from too.

8:46 Oh. Good point it.

8:48 Has to be set up. Yeah, I mean, Oh my God.

8:52 Ryan Reynolds, the Hemsworth brothers.

8:55 We were coming home after his gin tastings.

8:59 Maybe we'll get that. Romance he's been looking for

9:01 when he came home. It's all on par, right?

9:10 So the look, the case that that transpired in 1986, it was late

9:15 September. And the deceased, I suppose the

9:18 person who was murdered, her name is Beth Barnard.

9:21 Now going back a little bit, the the other family involved are

9:26 the Cameron family and specifically Fergus and Vivian

9:32 Cameron. So Fergus is part of, I guess,

9:37 Phillip Island royalty, you'd almost call them.

9:39 They were a really prominent family down there, the Cameron

9:42 family, they owned a lot of land.

9:44 They were farmers. They actually owned the land or

9:47 up until 2004, they owned the land of the Grand Prix circuit

9:53 that the Grand Prix circuit was on and other farming land around

9:56 the island. So they actually owned a quite a

9:59 large proportion of the island. They were an incredibly wealthy

10:04 and prominent family. They had ties to all aspects of

10:08 the community and I think they were very well respected and

10:13 well regarded. I, I've seen interviews done

10:17 with residents of Phillip Island who knew the Cameron family and

10:21 various members of the Cameron family.

10:23 And by all accounts they were, you know, nice people who were

10:29 sort of community minded, involved in, in lots of aspects

10:33 of, you know, the schooling council.

10:36 And huge in terms of tourism on Phillip Island and improving

10:40 that over the years, particularly around the Grand

10:42 Prix track and making sure that, yeah, all the locals made money

10:45 out of that, making sure that and everyone else on the island

10:48 was getting rid of a piece of the pie, I guess, in in whatever

10:50 way they could. So, yeah, I think well respected

10:52 in that way. Around the island they went

10:54 just, you know, scooping it all up for themselves.

10:55 And that's. Yeah.

10:56 That's it. And I guess, yes, Fergus Cameron

11:03 met or he. Yeah, I'm getting a little bit

11:06 ahead of myself actually. So let me backtrack a little

11:08 bit. Fergus met his wife, Vivian.

11:13 Her maiden name was Candy. They married, I think it was in

11:17 1976. Is that right?

11:20 Meg, have you got that? I think that sounds.

11:21 Right, I was trying to check my notes.

11:22 I haven't actually written it down, but it sounds right.

11:25 I'm pretty sure it was 1976. Yeah.

11:28 And they went on to have two boys, Dougald and Hugh, and they

11:36 lived on the one of the Cameron farms and I believe like all of

11:40 the family. So Fergus was one of three kids.

11:43 He's got a brother and a sister. And I believe they all lived

11:47 very close to one another on like adjoining farms.

11:51 Is that the way you understand it to be that?

11:53 Was my understanding of about 10 hectares or something that sort

11:55 of split in the beach got you know, prop like a house and A

11:58 and property on that one, a huge block.

12:01 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's that's sort of the way I

12:03 sort thought about it too. So, yeah, yeah.

12:08 And Fergus had several jobs. I guess the biggest part of his

12:14 his role was being a farmer, but he also actually worked at the

12:19 Penguin Parade as a sort of a part time job.

12:23 And while he was there, he met a 23 year old.

12:26 So he at this stage, he was, I think he was 36 mm hmm.

12:30 And he met 23 year old Beth Barnard at the Penguin Parade

12:36 and commenced a relationship with her.

12:39 I think that was in 1984. Mm hmm.

12:43 And so they were having, well, well, he was having an

12:46 extramarital affair with young Beth while he was still married

12:51 to his wife, Vivian. From what I can gather, Vivian

12:55 at the start didn't know about the affair.

12:58 And, you know, their lives were just carrying on as normal.

13:04 And as time went on, I believe she sort of got wind that there

13:08 was something possibly going on. Fergus actually employed Beth to

13:13 work at the farm at one point. And so Beth, they were seeing

13:17 each other every day between the Penguin parade and and Beth

13:20 being a farmhand, from what I can gather, Beth was a very

13:26 outdoorsy type of person. She loved horses, she loved the

13:30 outdoors, She loved animals. She'd.

13:32 Studied up agriculture hadn't she at university?

13:34 She'd just finished her degree when she'd moved down to the

13:37 island. I I believe she was living in

13:38 like the family holiday house down at Phillip Island at the

13:41 time with her degree. Sort of wanting to move down

13:43 that way and getting in on the farmyard, be as a farmhand I

13:46 guess was nicely linked to what she had been studying and as

13:49 well, working with animals down at the Penguin parade was her

13:52 passion. And it sounds.

13:53 Like she was really good at it. She had at the Penguin parade,

13:56 she had very much a customer facing role.

13:59 So she would talk to the patrons about the Penguins and teach

14:03 them and show them how they they're fed.

14:05 I heard a story about there was a time there was something going

14:08 on and the Penguins, there was something the mother Penguins

14:12 for some reason weren't feeding the babies.

14:15 There was whether there was a, an issue with a supply of fish

14:18 or something like that. And she used to stay back every

14:21 night for this period of time and hand feed all of the little

14:23 babies. So she you can tell she really,

14:26 really cared about about the Penguins and about animals.

14:30 So, yeah, you know, how can you be?

14:32 You can't be a bad person. And and.

14:35 Love animals. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

14:38 At some point, Vivian's gotten wind of the fact that Beth and

14:43 Fergus are in a relationship of sorts.

14:48 And several accounts from different residents on Phillip

14:51 Island, Vivian's started to change her appearance.

14:55 She lost a lot of weight and she started dressing a little bit

14:58 differently. And I believe she made a comment

15:01 to a friend in passing that she was doing that to try and save

15:05 her marriage, which I just think is, you know, like she must have

15:09 been feeling so desperate to feel that, you know, physically

15:13 changing herself was going to, I don't know, change the outcome

15:16 of her marriage. I mean, if she knew that Beth,

15:20 that Fergus was having a relationship with Beth, who was

15:26 23 years old, so 13 odd years her junior, maybe she felt like

15:32 she had to compete. I don't know.

15:34 I mean, I dare say, I mean, it would be.

15:35 It'd be awful. I can't even imagine.

15:38 Like, you know, feeling like you.

15:40 She's in love with Fergus still, you know, she wants her family

15:44 to stay together with, you know, her young kids because the, the

15:47 island was not her, you know, original home.

15:49 She'd come to the island to be with Fergus and raise her family

15:53 there. So I mean, in the relationship

15:55 and in the marriage, it would mean quite a separation of some

15:58 sort with her most likely in wanting more to move back the

16:01 mainland, as they call it, the to Melbourne where her family

16:04 were. It would been a lot of pressure

16:06 on her, I feel like, to win him back, you know, and try and fix

16:10 that to make sure the family stays together more than

16:13 anything else and repair the relationship, which I mean,

16:16 gosh, you know, you just I feel for that situation of like

16:20 you've got this young girl winning your husband's affection

16:23 and how do you like, I don't know, it's just.

16:27 Like, yeah, you can't compete, I guess.

16:28 She must have felt like this was a completely.

16:30 Different, you know, stages of your life, isn't it?

16:33 I mean, she's not a 23 year old anymore.

16:35 She's a, you know, 30 plus year old woman who's got children and

16:38 has different, you know, life needs and next stage of life.

16:43 Yeah. Comparing yourself to this

16:45 vibrant. Ha ha, sorry.

16:47 My friend calls me vibrant even though I'm over my over 40.

16:49 I don't know. Hey, I'm calling me vibrant too.

16:53 Well, maybe I'm more vibrant. Yeah, comparing yourself to this

16:56 vibrant 23 year old who's out on the farm and got all the time in

17:00 the world to give to him, you know, and that's with no, you

17:03 know, real ties to anything. Yeah, that's very different.

17:07 It's I mean, you're not the same person as that to be Adam.

17:10 It's it's comparing apples and oranges, I guess what I'm trying

17:12 to say. Yeah.

17:13 Yeah, I think, I think you're right.

17:15 I know Vivian actually also came from a broken home and I mean

17:20 back in, which would have been, I mean in the seven or even

17:23 earlier, probably the late 60s or early 70s, her father left

17:28 and. She they also had affairs and

17:30 things, yeah. Yeah.

17:31 And so she grew up with the stigma of coming from a broken

17:35 home, which I believe in that time was, you know, people did

17:38 look down upon families who who were in that situation.

17:43 And she didn't want that for her kids.

17:44 She wanted her kids to have both parents and come from a loving

17:50 home. I think it's probably worth

17:54 saying here as well that she absolutely loved being a mother.

17:58 Every single person who's been interviewed about her, there is

18:03 not one account where they haven't mentioned how much she

18:06 loved her children. Yeah, that she just.

18:10 They were her world. They were her.

18:12 World. She adored them everything she

18:14 did, she did for them Yeah. Trying to save her marriage with

18:20 her husband who is having it off with a 23 year old.

18:24 Yeah. Yeah.

18:26 Yeah, of course. Yeah.

18:29 Really gross. So on the night in question, so

18:34 Monday the 22nd of September in 1986, the timeline is not exact.

18:41 And I did hear the detective say in an interview that people

18:46 don't go around looking at their clocks even if they know there

18:49 is an incident unfolding. You don't walk around and be

18:51 like, oh, look at that, it's 9:02 PM and I'm sitting here.

18:56 Everything's always approximate. So there are some.

18:59 And there's not even like mobile phone data, like as in you can't

19:03 even say that phone call came through, you know, at 9902

19:06 because it's, you know, on your phone.

19:08 And yeah, because these were all landline phones that would have

19:11 been used in the day and. Apparently, I didn't know this

19:14 until I was looking into it, but apparently landlines, they

19:17 didn't record each call it you just get a note to say like say

19:22 you've made, I don't know, 25 local calls in the month and the

19:26 only itemized calls were STD calls.

19:30 Yeah, they get so. At the beginning or whatever the

19:33 other phone call, do you remember that?

19:34 Am I too old? No, no, no, I do remember that.

19:37 So, yes. So there was no way of verifying

19:40 times based on anything electronic really these days, I

19:44 think I think it would be so much harder to get away with

19:47 something because our digital footprint is everywhere.

19:51 There was none of that. No, no, no, no CCTV, no camera,

19:56 no phones, no nothing to track anything.

19:58 So the investigation relied very heavily on people's accounts of

20:02 what happened and there were a lot of discrepancies.

20:05 But I think we can probably get into the statements a little bit

20:08 later and that's definitely more in your wheelhouse.

20:10 So I'll get you to run through those in a minute.

20:13 Pressure 9. I'm just warning you now, at

20:18 9:00 PM on Monday the 22nd of September in 1986, Fergus

20:25 arrived back to the farm. So he'd been at a shift at the

20:29 Penguin Parade and on the way home, I believe he finished work

20:33 there at about 8:00 PM. And on his way home, he decided

20:37 to drop in on Beth because she'd had a bit of a cold and he was a

20:41 bit worried about her and he wanted to check on her to.

20:44 Make sure my mistress is OK. Yeah, and shagging her.

20:48 Yeah, well, no, they didn't shag.

20:50 They didn't shag that night. Well, again, there's

20:53 discrepancies there. Well.

20:54 There is, there are discrepancies.

20:56 I'm I'm, it's pretty solid in my mind that they didn't that

20:59 night, they did the night before on the Sunday night.

21:02 And I think that's pretty well verified.

21:04 But he reckons he just gave her a bit of a kiss and a cuddle and

21:08 and then went on his merry way. Better go back to the wife and

21:11 kids. He real comes back home and gets

21:18 home and Vivian's there and she's not happy.

21:22 Marnie's with her too. His sister is that.

21:25 Yes, that's right. Sorry, I forgot she was there.

21:27 Yeah, she was wanting to have a chat with Fergus about

21:30 something. I can't remember what it was

21:31 though that was. Do you think it's weird that his

21:34 sister was there at 9:00 at night?

21:35 Uh huh. Yeah, I just yeah, I don't I'd

21:37 actually yeah, we like say it. He heard statement doesn't match

21:42 any story. Like, I feel like she was, I

21:46 feel like she knew what was going on and she was sticky

21:48 nosing or whether it was sticky nosing or whether it was just, I

21:52 don't know, keeping Viv at Bay for him.

21:55 Oh, that's an interesting take on it.

21:58 Yeah. I, my theory is that she knew

22:01 something was happening, like things were escalating or

22:04 whatever, and she was, yes, sticky nosing.

22:06 That's the vibe I get. Her statement, her statement's

22:09 really interesting, I feel like, and you can read all of the

22:11 statements online, just Google them.

22:13 It's, it's, they're easy to find her statement, I think.

22:16 I reckon she, she knew what she wanted to say and she never

22:22 quite nailed any point properly. Yeah, it's it's a, it's a very

22:26 interesting read. And none of her timeline matches

22:29 up with anyone else's. There's, there's a lot, a lot

22:34 going on there. Anyway, we've Vivian and Fergus

22:38 have an argument. This is now a lot of what I'm

22:42 going to tell you in the next little bit.

22:45 A lot of it comes Fergus's account of what happened that

22:49 night. Yeah.

22:50 And we don't obviously have Vivian's account.

22:52 No, we don't have Vivian's account because she is still to

22:56 this day missing. We will get to that.

22:58 But at this point, Vivian and Fergus are at home and Marnie

23:04 was there when Fergus got home, but I think she left.

23:07 She was like, I'll leave because she the tension was real high.

23:10 So she let she was like, oh, I'm going to leave that alone.

23:13 And, and left them to it. Yeah.

23:14 Yeah, and Vivian, basically. Well, according to Fergus,

23:19 Vivian says no, you were with the little bitch.

23:21 And she escalates and becomes verbally even further verbally

23:27 abusive. And then she strikes him with

23:30 her wine glass. So she'd been drinking.

23:32 I don't know how heavily it's disputed how heavily she was

23:36 drinking. From all accounts, I think she

23:38 had about half a bottle of wine. Nothing crazy.

23:42 Nothing crazy. She strikes Fergus over the ear

23:46 and cuts him with the wine glass, and then she stabs him in

23:50 the back with the wine glass. So again, according to his

23:53 statement, yes. According to his statement, all

23:55 of this is According to his statement, apparently she then

23:59 gets really. So she's in this rage, breaks

24:04 the glass on his ear, breaks the shoves it into his back, the,

24:08 you know, the house's chaos. Then she all of a sudden decides

24:14 that she's really worried about him and worried about this cut

24:17 on his ear and worried about his back and decides to bundle him

24:21 into the car and take him to the local hospital.

24:24 So they hop in the car. When they get there, according

24:29 to Fergus, she makes another statement about going to get

24:33 again Fergus's statement. They then go into the hospital

24:36 and Fergus is treated by a nurse there, A couple of nurses

24:40 actually, both whom state that Vivian had no blood on her.

24:44 At this point, no. Injuries.

24:46 Nothing. No.

24:47 Injuries they They say that the relationship between Fergus and

24:52 Vivian seemed amicable and normal, like there was no

24:56 tension, there was nothing going on between them.

25:00 No, they actually stated like that.

25:02 They looked very much together like that they were she was

25:06 concerned for him and that so there wasn't there was certainly

25:08 trying to find out what happened because they needed to know what

25:11 happened so they could treat the injuries and work out where he

25:14 was hurt properly. And but they were not going to

25:17 spill the beans on how it all occurred.

25:20 Eventually. They said that Fergus had walked

25:23 through a glass panel like in the like a door or something and

25:27 got the cuts from that. But yeah, they said.

25:29 But they they said that the two of them were very like, you

25:32 know, touchy feely and very together.

25:35 She was there being the supportive wife of poor him.

25:38 He's injured himself. So they nothing, nothing rang

25:40 alarm bells of. Yeah.

25:43 Another account by one of the other nurses, though, is that he

25:46 said he'd had a fight with one of his brothers.

25:49 Oh, I didn't read that. Where'd?

25:51 You. Yeah, I'd have to go back and

25:53 have a look in, in my other note.

25:55 Yeah. So I think there were several

25:57 stories about what had happened and no one has.

25:59 Different nurses they he told a different story to.

26:02 Yeah, yeah. Interesting.

26:04 Yeah. But that nurse also stated that

26:08 she said they, they seemed close.

26:11 That was her, they were her words, so she they seemed close.

26:14 So after they've patched him up at the hospital, they head back

26:17 home and according to Fergus's statement, they have a

26:20 conversation about splitting up. And Vivian states that she's

26:25 happy to go back to Melbourne and leave the boys with Fergus

26:29 and she'd do that the following morning.

26:31 And Fergus decided that he it would be best if he went and

26:34 stayed with Manny the night. Yeah, because, well, he's a far

26:37 better father than she is. A mother?

26:39 What the? Yeah, yeah, for a second that

26:42 she said that, No. Way.

26:44 No way. Yeah, yeah, sure.

26:45 I'll leave my kids with you and I'll just leave and move

26:49 hundreds of kilometers away. I I I don't see it either.

26:52 But anyway, Fergus decides to go and stay at Mani and her husband

26:56 Ian's place that night. And I believe that he that's at

27:02 about 12:00 AM that that happens.

27:05 So he goes over to Mani's Vivian's left at home.

27:08 The two boys are still there sleeping, their two sons.

27:11 And then actually, I think Mani came over to their house to look

27:14 after the boys when they went to the.

27:16 Hospital she went so when she they went to the hospital, they

27:19 left the kids by on their own like which just boys behind, but

27:22 you know, at the 80s yeah. So they left for the hospital,

27:25 but then they called from the hospital, I think it was to Mani

27:27 and said can you go around to the house and sit with the boys

27:31 while we're at the hospital? So obviously if there's been the

27:34 domestic that they they sort of that what Fergus is saying in

27:38 money's statement. She says that she a glass broken

27:42 that they cleaned that glass up and they and that but there was

27:46 blood on certain things, but they left that alone and didn't

27:49 touch any of the blood or didn't clean up any of that.

27:51 So I find that very interesting because in all of the forensic

27:56 notes from the police, when they came to the house after the

28:00 fact, no glass was ever found in the bin anywhere in the house.

28:06 Yeah. Where this glass that Mani

28:11 picked up and found, No one else has ever found that.

28:15 And that she doesn't even stain us say in her statement what had

28:18 happened. She just said she cleaned it up.

28:20 Well, clean. What does that mean?

28:21 Where did you put it? It wasn't in the rubbish bin.

28:23 It wasn't in. It wasn't anywhere to be found

28:26 to be stay. It hasn't been located.

28:28 Located And the other thing is if you look at the crime scene

28:30 photos next to the on the sink, there's actually a pewter wine

28:35 glass, not a glass glass, a pewter glass, which you know, if

28:39 that's the glass that's being used to pour the wine and have

28:41 the the glasses that she's drunk that afternoon, that ain't going

28:45 to smash and cut his ear and his back either.

28:47 So no evidence of this glass. No, no, no.

28:52 And I think it's really strange. So Marnie's gone there after

28:55 this altercation to look after her nephews.

28:58 Wouldn't you want to clean up the blood?

29:00 No. Like I think that they would

29:02 wake up. If you again, Google the crime

29:04 scene photos, there's a fair whack of blood there.

29:07 I. Honestly would not leave that

29:08 around for kids to I mean, personally if you know, if

29:11 that's the story you're being told, you know, yeah, we had a

29:12 bit of a domestic and there's been some blood and you know,

29:14 like you just go around there and you clean up as they're like

29:16 at the hospital. I just would, even not knowing,

29:18 thinking about a crime scene at that point, I would have just

29:21 cleaned up and cleaned up the blood and things like that and

29:23 got rid of things and put things in the washing basket and

29:25 whatever, put a load on on, if it was, you know, that was much

29:27 blood, whatever, get rid of it all.

29:29 Like not out of like trying to hide anything, just out of being

29:32 helpful in a situation. I found that really interesting

29:34 that yeah, she's cleaned up the glass, but not the blood, I

29:37 think. So then was the blood even

29:38 there? Did she ever see it?

29:40 Was that there at that point in time?

29:42 She claims it was and Fergus claims it was.

29:46 Yeah, and the because again, the timeline of like when this

29:49 happened is a bit sketchy too. How much time has passed between

29:53 money leaving, money returning after the domestic?

29:58 It's a bit. Yeah, yeah.

30:00 And again, I mean, the hospital records had the right timing of

30:03 them arriving. I don't know that it had a time

30:07 of departure. I actually didn't read that in

30:09 any of the. Nights again that was pretty

30:10 sketchy too because 33 AM comes up a lot but I believe this

30:15 between like midnight and 3:00 AM all that timeline's all over

30:19 the place too. It is so different statements

30:22 say different things in terms of where and where, when people

30:26 called people and where people were.

30:29 Yeah. Yeah, it's very hard to pinpoint

30:32 any of it. And so I think that leaves a

30:34 whole lot of questions over how much time people had do certain

30:38 things. That's it.

30:40 That's it. Yeah.

30:41 So I guess Vivian and Fergus have had this conversation.

30:45 Money's gone home. They've had this conversation

30:47 about Vivian leaving, that they're separating immediately.

30:50 She's moving to Melbourne. Fergus can have custody of the

30:53 children and apparently Vivian, according to Fergus, said he was

30:59 a very good father and she wasn't a great mother, so.

31:04 Don't buy it. Nope.

31:06 How's it again when a hero comes along?

31:10 Well. Someone has to be in this

31:11 situation, don't they? Now again, sketchy timeline, but

31:15 at around 10:00 AM is when Fergus says drove to Mani's

31:20 house to stay with her. So Mani's gone home at around

31:24 midnight, Fergus has then Fergus and Vivian have had their

31:28 conversation and Fergus and apparently Vivian packs Ferguson

31:31 overnight bag because you know, heaven forbid he should have to

31:34 take care of that for himself and drives to Mani's house to

31:40 stay with him. According to Mani, she sees

31:46 Vivian in the driveway, so they must be able to like see each

31:50 other's. I dare say if it's what I'm

31:53 pitching of sort of farms, you'd be able to see headlights from a

31:56 fair distance, like even. Though how would she see?

31:58 She said in in Mani's statement. She says sorry, no, you're

32:03 right. She says she sees Vivian driving

32:05 away. Yeah.

32:06 Did Vivian drop Fergus at the house?

32:10 Maybe that's what happened. Yes.

32:11 Yes, sorry, that's my bad. And then yes, in Mani's

32:16 statement, she says she can see Vivian driving away.

32:18 You're right, that would be in the headlight situation.

32:20 And which? Car.

32:21 Can you remember which car it was?

32:23 They said that they were driving to do that.

32:24 I think she took her car. Not the sedan.

32:27 The sedan, not the not the Land Rover.

32:31 Yeah, Land Cruiser. Yeah, whatever.

32:34 I know that. I know they're different,

32:36 important. There's people who'll be yelling

32:40 at you right now. I know, I know, I know, I know.

32:44 Look, it's written down in my notes, so I'll have a look at it

32:46 in a minute. Which one?

32:46 It actually works, I don't know. It was an old like Army looking

32:49 thing. Anyway.

32:51 OK, thank you. With a flatbed on the back.

32:54 Anyway, at 3:00 AM, Vivian calls a friend of hers named Robin

33:01 Dixon. Robin's husband answers the

33:04 phone and Vivian apparently says to him, I need you to go to the

33:10 house and pick up the boys. There's something has happened

33:14 and we're at the hospital. This is 3:00 AM.

33:16 OK with that, Robin and her husband, who?

33:21 And I can't remember the name of the husband, sorry, but they

33:24 jump in. They get hop in their car.

33:26 They go to Fergus and Vivian's house and they pick up the boys

33:31 and take them back to their place.

33:33 I believe they have kids roughly the same age as.

33:36 Yeah, and, and she was a she's a teacher too.

33:39 Yeah, at the school they all go. To right.

33:40 Yeah, OK. So I think Hugh, the youngest,

33:43 wasn't yet at school. I think he was only 5.

33:46 But Dougald was at school. He was the older of the two.

33:50 So they go. And I mean, to me that even

33:52 seems weird. How could you not ask any more

33:55 questions and well. The only reason there I go.

33:57 OK, I take, I get it. And I'll, I'll, I'll accept that

34:00 there was no questions asked was because the husband answered the

34:03 phone. If if Robin had actually

34:05 answered that phone, there would have been a million questions.

34:07 Are you OK? What's going on?

34:08 What do I need to do to help? Like there would have been

34:11 questions and answers at the hospital.

34:13 But how did Robin not then, I guess?

34:15 I mean, this is before mobile friends.

34:16 It's not like she could call. No, she didn't know where Vivian

34:18 was, really. No, she was having an argument

34:21 with her car, with her husband on the car on the way over to

34:24 the house. But why?

34:24 Don't you ask questions. Totally.

34:26 Why are we doing this? I would absolutely kill Peter.

34:29 I mean, they're, they're so used to something.

34:32 But to boot, I mean, this is where another question mark sort

34:35 of is put over that of like the husband answering the phone,

34:37 which I mean, whoever was on the other end of the line didn't

34:39 know if it was going to be Robin or the husband answering.

34:43 But would the husband recognize whether or not that was

34:46 definitely Vivian's voice? And would he just take it on on

34:49 face value that the person said, it's Viv, can you come and get

34:52 my kids or yeah. Would Robin have then realized,

34:54 would she have known for sure just by the voice that it was

34:58 definitely Vivian or was it someone else?

35:00 That's it. So I emailed her.

35:02 Just throwing it out there. Well, according to Mani's

35:07 statement, she was asleep at this time.

35:09 So. Sorry.

35:13 So they go back. They take the kids back to their

35:16 place. Yeah, those poor kids.

35:18 God, what a night. What?

35:21 AI mean I'm just hoping they slept through most of it and had

35:24 absolutely no idea what was going on.

35:26 Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

35:27 I mean, and they've got a whole lot more ahead of them after

35:29 that night to think to like, yeah, yeah.

35:32 I mean, the kids, my heart goes out to them.

35:35 Me too. Yeah.

35:37 What a life they they'd lead beyond this.

35:40 Yeah. So we're now obviously in the

35:43 very early hours of the 23rd of September and somewhere around

35:52 three this sort of 3:00 AM mark again, somebody has gone over to

36:01 Beth's house. Now, she lived in Rhyl, which is

36:04 another suburb of Phillip Island.

36:08 I believe it was about a 10 minute drive from the Cameron

36:11 farm. Yeah.

36:13 Is that about right? Yeah, Yeah.

36:15 Sort of pretty much puts you in a bit of a Tron semi triangle

36:17 ish of kind of like where the bridge is from San for San Remo.

36:20 There was best place pretty much in the middle between them

36:24 between there and then where the Cameron's place was.

36:26 So you've kind of got that triangle between the two,

36:29 between the three spot. Yeah.

36:31 OK, Yep. So at some point, somebody has

36:35 gone to Beth's house and perpetrated what the homicide

36:41 detective has called the most horrific murder scene he has

36:46 ever seen. Beth was stabbed.

36:50 She was stabbed so severely in her face that it knocked a tooth

36:54 out, root and all. She was absolutely just, Oh my

36:59 God, mutilated. And then post mortem, A was

37:05 carved into her stomach and chest.

37:07 And it like area was I think it took something like 19 marks to

37:13 make this a. Like it was 10 marks, it was

37:17 10/5 up one side. Yeah, four up one side and then

37:20 one across. Right, yeah.

37:22 And it was a lot. I was like, I couldn't remember.

37:24 I wrote it down 10. Yeah, it horrific like and I

37:30 think this is where the point in this case where this ridiculous

37:35 situation becomes a whole nother level fucked up.

37:39 I mean absolutely. So the letter A people

37:42 immediately have jumped to the conclusion that that means

37:46 adulterer and it's in reference to the scallop letter.

37:51 Did you have to read that? It's.

37:52 No, Meg, I'm a lot. Yeah, a lot.

37:54 I didn't know. I didn't have to read it.

37:56 I thought you were about to say no, but I believe it was on the

38:00 curriculum, on the Victorian curriculum around that time or

38:04 around the time actually. That definitely was then.

38:06 I'm fairly sure if he did like lit or something in our day.

38:11 I did and we didn't do. The stuff OK, well, no,

38:14 basically the story is that this woman was in I didn't read it by

38:18 the way, because I don't read books that she was had been in a

38:21 relationship and fallen pregnant had a baby out of wedlock.

38:25 And so as sort of punishment for that in the in this 1850, I

38:29 think it was set, she had to like skip stitch a letter A into

38:33 all of her clothing and wear it on out in public all the time.

38:36 And but the man in this situation had no repercussions

38:39 of that. And the man actually was the

38:42 local priest. So yeah, in the context, yeah.

38:47 So that's where the A sort of comes into it of like what the

38:51 reference maybe is. But we're only assuming, like, I

38:54 mean, unless you spoke to the person who did it, we assume

38:57 that's what was meant by it. I think that's I think that's a

39:01 pretty fair and reasonable assumption.

39:04 A fair assumption because it is. I mean, it's the most bizarre

39:06 thing, like, to do. Is there anyone else, any other

39:09 crimes that you can think of where they've done similar

39:11 things? I mean, I know it's not uncommon

39:13 for, like, serial killers. Nothing to do.

39:18 Yeah, but but to mark an eye into someone's body like that

39:22 was, it's just, I mean, that takes a whole nother level of

39:25 insanity. Yeah, yeah, I haven't actually.

39:30 I don't know of any other cases where like a message like that

39:35 has been carved into a body post mortem.

39:38 It's, it's horrific. But having said all that, when

39:41 you look at the scene, there's the crime scene photos, there's

39:44 not that much blood like I mean, I would expected.

39:47 I mean, we talked about in the staircase, for example.

39:50 I mean, I know that was a head injury and there was so much

39:53 blood in that crime scene. This did it, Just there wasn't

39:57 as much blood. Did you feel so?

39:59 I think, yeah, I, I thought the exact same thing.

40:02 But I believe when I looked into that, the reasoning behind that,

40:06 it was because one of the first stab wounds that was made

40:11 actually dropped her blood pressure so low when the

40:15 subsequent stabbings. Were inflicted there wasn't any

40:20 blood pressure there to like push the blood out of her body

40:23 so they actually either the first or second stab wound is

40:27 what actually. Killed her.

40:29 Yeah, yeah, yeah. There wasn't a lot of blood.

40:34 She, Beth was in bed at the time at her house.

40:36 And as you said, it was, I think it was her parents sort of

40:39 holiday home. They weren't living there at the

40:42 time. They weren't there.

40:43 She was in that house on her own.

40:46 She was. It was, if you have a look at

40:48 the crime scene photos, there were two single beds in this

40:51 bedroom. It looked like any other sort of

40:54 suburban. It had lots of, you know, bits

40:57 and pieces of hers, you know, around the around the bed.

41:00 The thing that really struck me from the crime scene photos was

41:03 there's a hat like a sun hat. The beds had like 4 short posts

41:09 on them and the hat was at the sort of the bed on one of the.

41:14 Posts not one that she wasn't sleeping in.

41:15 Yeah, was on the end of that bed, but not moved like it.

41:19 Was not moved. And it just blows my mind that

41:22 in this like from what has been described as a frenzied attack,

41:27 that not more of that scene was disturbed, like not more of the

41:30 surroundings were disturbed. But then I guess if she was

41:34 asleep and the perpetrator has struck her and that initial

41:39 stabbing is what killed her, maybe there wouldn't have been

41:42 much of much kerfuffle. It just sort of, yeah, it was

41:47 fairly calm from there. She ended up on the floor,

41:49 though, and died on the floor. And the perpetrator of the crime

41:54 has actually covered her up in a doona and covered her so.

41:57 Far, yeah. Right up to her, I think.

42:00 Like above her mouth. Yeah.

42:02 Couldn't actually see the stab wound to her mouth and the truth

42:07 having been knocked out that wasn't visible immediately when

42:12 her body was found. So although this was a frenzied

42:15 attack and obviously motivated by, I mean, to perform that

42:20 carving post mortem, the perpetrator then obviously felt

42:25 some kind of remorse because they've covered up the body and

42:29 there's a lot of psychology behind DID.

42:31 They even like pull the the bedding over as well from where

42:35 the blood was on the bed where like it seems to have, she seems

42:38 to have been stabbed from in the bed.

42:40 And then so there's a fair bit of blood on the sheets in the

42:42 bed and that was even pulled up as well to cover that.

42:45 So yeah, to me that shows remorse from of sorts of the the

42:50 killer, yeah. I think so.

42:52 I think so. According to some

42:55 criminologists, it may also suggest that the crime was

42:59 perpetrated by a woman. I was.

43:01 Just about to say man's not pulling the sheets back up and

43:04 making them. On a good day, there were some

43:07 really interesting things found at the crime scene went there.

43:11 Yeah. A lot of a lot of analysis had

43:14 been done. Yeah, I guess we'll let's get

43:17 into how her body was found and then we can talk about what was

43:19 found at the crime scene. Yeah, I think that's yeah, let's

43:22 do that. We'll keep going with the

43:24 timeline. That's so fucked up.

43:26 It really is. So at this stage it is sometime

43:28 in the early ish morning of the oh God I've just lost the date,

43:33 the 23rd of September and now this is the bit that I can't get

43:37 my head around and this is the bit that makes me think Fergus

43:42 is involved. The following morning Fergus

43:46 like gets a vibe. Does he or?

43:47 Like, yeah, he's. Like.

43:50 Oh, because he's woken up at his house at my.

43:52 Yeah, and he's like, oh, I need to let her know, like what

43:55 happened last night between him and Vivian and Vivian supposedly

43:59 leaving, but he doesn't go around to tell Beth.

44:03 He sends Ian, who's Manny's husband, and his brother go over

44:08 to Beth's house and tell her or check on her.

44:13 But they also take with them, don't they?

44:16 The Hugh, the youngest child. Oh, what I.

44:20 Didn't know that. Oh, maybe I've got it wrong

44:22 because the thing what roused huge, sorry, get the names

44:26 right. Fergus woke up to a phone call

44:28 from Robin Dixon, right? Not the kids.

44:31 And he needs to leave for work. She's a teacher and needs to get

44:34 to school. And she rings him saying,

44:36 Fergus, I've still got the kids here.

44:38 You know what's going on? I can't contact Viv.

44:40 There's no one answering at your house.

44:42 So get what? She called Martin, didn't she?

44:44 Yeah. So she called Marnie and so she

44:47 said, oh, well, you know, yeah, of course Fergus is here.

44:49 So Robin Dixon is saying someone needs to come get the kids.

44:52 Like I can take the oldest one to school with me, That's not a

44:54 problem. But what do I do with the

44:55 younger one? I believe Fergus has then gone

44:58 to pick up the youngest one. Yeah, I know.

45:00 Maybe that's where I'm getting it fixed up.

45:01 So he's gone to pick up the youngest one.

45:03 And he said to the uncle, so Donald, his brother and Ian to

45:06 go check on Beth, which people like.

45:08 I think that's the question was why didn't he say to his

45:11 brother, go pick up my child, I'll go check on Beth.

45:15 Like why didn't you the other way around?

45:17 Make a lot more sense. Like can you go and check on the

45:19 woman I've been having an affair with?

45:20 Yeah, like. Weird, weird.

45:23 I mean, this is prior to thinking hang on a minute,

45:25 where's my wife? Why has she done children in

45:28 another woman's house? No, that didn't enter his.

45:31 Mind, he was not worried about where Viv was at all at that

45:35 point, no, so he didn't even more worried about the the

45:38 little mistress which. Yeah.

45:40 So, yeah, yeah, Ian and Donald head over there, the best house.

45:45 And apparently when they got there, the door was open.

45:48 It was about 6 to 8 inches open, sort of knocking.

45:52 They can't hit anything inside, so they sort of let themselves

45:56 in and they walked down to the back bedroom, which was bethe

46:00 bedroom and they, I think. It's not far in.

46:02 I think her bedroom was fairly fat.

46:04 It was only a few steps in I think.

46:05 Yeah. Ohk.

46:06 OK, I thought her bedroom was at the back of the house.

46:08 OK, my bad. And he and they obviously see

46:11 they could very well, according to their statements, they could

46:15 tell immediately that she was deceased.

46:17 They could tell me that she was deceased, but they didn't touch

46:19 anything. They did immediately leave.

46:21 And so at this stage, you know, the covers are up to her nose.

46:24 They haven't seen the eye. They haven't seen any of the.

46:27 They can see there's blood in the room, but they can't see

46:29 what has happened to her. Yeah.

46:31 And they go down to the police station, which is.

46:33 So this is one thing they do document time wise.

46:37 They will make it. They made that statement at 9:05

46:39 AM at the police station. So, but, well, takes them.

46:44 Takes them a fair bit to get that out of their mouths though.

46:47 They were baffling buffoons at the bloody police station.

46:51 Well, they, they took them like they couldn't.

46:53 Yeah. Oh, sorry.

46:54 Go. No, they couldn't they couldn't

46:55 get it out. What happened?

46:56 They went around on this whole like, you know, circle of, you

46:58 know, there's there's a fit an affair happening and rather than

47:01 leading with Beth's dead, we need to get over there.

47:04 But instead the the words they got out were there's there's

47:07 been a domestic and Beth's not well.

47:11 Could you be more of a country Australian man?

47:15 There's been a domestic been. A domestic and.

47:19 What do they know? What do they know?

47:22 That's I just find that really interesting, interesting

47:25 wording. And I mean, that's the wording

47:26 that the police officer noted down.

47:28 That's not you know, that's, that's what was said on the day.

47:32 I do find that an interesting way of them to describe the

47:36 scenario. No, the severity of what they've

47:40 they have discovered yet, but their connection is immediately

47:43 that there's been a domestic which to me would would say it's

47:46 between Fergus and hers. That's what I would have thought

47:51 I did. The thing that makes me, that I

47:53 think makes these guys credible in that I think, you know,

47:57 they've they've done their best in this circumstance is the fact

48:02 that they didn't call Fergus, They didn't call Mani.

48:07 They didn't call, I can't remember Donald's wife's name.

48:10 They Pat or something. They didn't call anyone.

48:12 They literally left Beth's house.

48:14 They walked out. Hats off to them for not

48:16 touching anything. Yeah, they walked out.

48:19 They went straight to Cows police station to report it.

48:21 Yeah, I think that gives them some credibility.

48:23 Yeah, totally. I think they've totally walked

48:25 in on something that had no idea what they're walking into.

48:28 Did Fergus know what they're going to be walking into?

48:30 Well. That's I highly suspect he did.

48:34 Yeah. So you know, cows police

48:39 station. I doubt they'd seen a murder.

48:41 Actually don't know. I didn't look at look up any

48:44 other. Maybe people dying on the

48:45 beaches in terms of surfers or whatever.

48:47 Like I wouldn't have thought murder.

48:48 No, I would have thought more. More like a sort of police

48:53 station, yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, there's only

48:54 like about four police officers on the island.

48:57 I mean, even to this day I don't think they've got a massive

48:59 police station down there. I dare say they would have had

49:01 to have called in. From what I can gather there

49:03 were a lot of cops basically at the scene throughout the day,

49:06 but they would have been all called in from Melbourne and

49:07 stuff. Well, they were called, I think

49:09 the first cop to arrive on scene was actually called from 1 Saggy

49:13 police station. So that is on the mainland, but

49:15 not far. And then obviously they had to

49:17 call in the homicide squad from From.

49:21 Melbourne, yeah, absolutely no one left at the police station

49:24 in in Cows because they were all out at this.

49:27 And so when people were trying to call the station to call in

49:30 things they knew about the the situation, they couldn't contact

49:33 anyone because they were all out.

49:34 So mobile phones were of no use, obviously back in these days.

49:38 Yeah, that's. It the lead homicide detective's

49:41 name was Rory O'Connor and there's a lot of interviews with

49:44 him. You can find them on YouTube and

49:47 you even just Googling. I mean, he's a seasoned homicide

49:51 detective and leading the investigation.

49:53 He said a couple of quotes are this is the most brutal attack

49:57 I've ever seen, actually said in one of the interviews that I

50:02 listened to. So this was very early on after

50:05 the crime had been committed. He said he couldn't believe a

50:10 lot of the evidence pointed. According to him, a lot of the

50:14 evidence pointed to the fact that Vivian had done this.

50:18 He couldn't believe that a woman could inflict such horror on

50:23 another woman. Yeah, yeah, the psychology

50:26 behind that sort of does indicate that a woman couldn't

50:30 do that. Not to say that it's not

50:31 possible. It's just far less likely that a

50:34 woman would commit a crime like this and have.

50:37 No, that's it. Female on female murders are

50:42 incredibly uncommon. Normally when a female is a

50:46 perpetrator of a murder, it's that of an intimate partner.

50:50 So she's generally killing a male partner.

50:53 I believe less than 10% of killers are female.

50:57 So yeah, that kind of gives you a little bit of a, an idea on

51:02 how, you know, rare this is. But as you said, it's rare, but

51:06 that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

51:09 So at this stage, we're sort of, what are we now, 10/9, 10:00 in

51:13 the morning? No one can find Vivian.

51:17 So Beth's dead. Beth's not doing very well.

51:21 No. What was the quote?

51:23 Beth, she's unwell. She's unwell, but no one can

51:27 find Vivian. She is nowhere to be found

51:31 unless you take a phone call that a friend claims happened at

51:37 10:00 AM that morning. Do you know about this?

51:40 Yeah, actually I was going to ask you about this because we

51:43 were actually together at a live crime.

51:48 Oh my God. Like one of those shows

51:51 Australian true crime. No, it wasn't.

51:52 No, it wasn't a stranger. It was case file.

51:54 It was case file because it was Vicki Petritis, who is the

51:57 author of the Philip Holland murder book.

51:59 She's also person who has done the case file podcast, which is

52:03 a long form podcast on this case, which is well worth a

52:07 listen. But so we were actually at a

52:09 live show of hers and we we thought we'd be walking into her

52:12 to discussing the Philippine case, but I'm she turned out it

52:15 turned out to be completely different.

52:16 It was a fabulous night, but it wasn't necessarily around the

52:19 Philippine case until the end when obviously the audience

52:22 members were asking some questions.

52:23 And I mean, she's a strong advocate for Vivian in this

52:26 scenario. There was a question put to her

52:28 around the phone call that was made at 10:00 AM to what was her

52:33 name, Linda Frost. Yeah, Yeah.

52:36 So, and please remind me if I'm totally off base here, but my

52:43 recollection of her answer to the question around that phone

52:45 call was that she now believes that phone call never occurred.

52:49 Yeah. Yeah.

52:50 So in her podcast and in her book, she really relies on that

52:55 phone call being a bit of a, an indicator that, yeah, Vivian was

52:58 alive at 10:00 AM there and didn't do that, had no idea what

53:02 was going on with everything and that she was making a phone call

53:06 as she ordinarily would in in the morning.

53:08 But I don't think this changes her.

53:10 I don't think it's changed her opinion on whether or not Vivian

53:12 was involved in the murder of Beth or not, but it certainly

53:16 has changed her thinking around this phone call.

53:19 There was. I can't if you, I don't know if

53:20 you can remember what she actually said about it, but I

53:23 just do remember her fairly clearly stating that she doesn't

53:26 think that phone call occurred and that maybe Glenda had the

53:29 wrong day. Yeah, I think she didn't give a

53:33 specific reason. I think she just said, like, you

53:37 know, more information has come to life.

53:38 Yeah, she was, and sketchy about it, wasn't she?

53:40 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she, as you said, she's like

53:44 an absolute expert on this case. And she is a staunch Vivian

53:48 Cameron supporter. Like she, she definitely does

53:53 not believe that Vivian perpetrated this.

53:57 The podcast that she did for Case file that Vicky Petratus

54:01 did for case file is called The Vanishing of Vivian Cameron.

54:04 And I find that really interesting because really, the

54:10 Beth murder, the Beth Barnard murder really takes a back seat

54:15 in Vicki's telling Vivian's story.

54:18 And I get, I see her like I understand why she's done that

54:21 from her perspective is that she wants to give Vivian a voice

54:24 because in all of this, she's just been the woman who

54:27 committed the crime and then she disappeared, whether that, you

54:31 know, suicide, whatever she did. And it's kind of like fobbed off

54:33 as like, you know, this woman's just she's a killer.

54:35 So I do get it from that perspective.

54:37 But at the same time, Beth was fairly innocent in all of this.

54:42 Yes, she was having an affair, but she was not the married

54:44 partner in that relationship. And that was for Fergus.

54:47 And they all as the older person in the in the relationship as

54:49 well as being the married one, should have been the responsible

54:51 partner of saying this is not OK, I'm ending this or I'm

54:55 ending my marriage to pursue this.

54:56 Like I do feel that more of that onus is on him than on her.

55:00 From all accounts, she was a lovely, vivacious person.

55:03 You know that she did not deserve to be murdered and just

55:07 certainly not the way she was murdered.

55:08 It was sounded pretty bloody horrific.

55:11 So I I think, yeah, they both women equally, I think need

55:16 respect in this. Yeah.

55:19 Yeah. But so I mean, that's the big

55:21 question of whether is is Vivian, is it that clear, clean

55:24 and simple that Vivian did this or is it not when you don't have

55:27 her story? Well, that's it.

55:29 And I don't think we'll we won't, we won't ever know.

55:32 So the the, I guess the the call that Glenda Frost claims claims

55:39 that Vivian phoned her at 10:00 AM to ask her about purchasing

55:44 some kind of like crocheted something or other for a gift

55:48 for somebody at the community centre that Vivian worked at.

55:52 At the time, Glenda was at home and her friend Pam Lovett was at

55:58 Glenda's house. And she her statement is that

56:01 she heard Glenda take the phone call and go, oh, hi, Viv, blah,

56:05 blah, blah, blah, blah, and continue the conversation.

56:08 Yeah, I think I think it's fair to say.

56:11 So. Not only did the homicide

56:13 detectives discount this call as in look, they they believe the

56:17 call probably happened. It just didn't happen on the day

56:20 that Glenda claims it happened. And I think they, they also in

56:25 one of the something I watched that one of the cops made a very

56:28 good statement in that saying not everyone gets their story

56:32 right. Like as in everyone remembers

56:33 things slightly differently. Not everything in a in a murder

56:36 case is going to neatly line up. And so therefore there are going

56:40 to be outliers within, you know, as long as the majority of your

56:44 stories that I align and that that's, you know, you can draw

56:47 that conclusion that this is the answer.

56:49 You know, there's always going to be something that doesn't

56:51 fit. Yeah, because people Diaries are

56:54 not as good as we would hope them to be.

56:57 You know, especially this day. We don't have all these

56:59 technologies to keep us in line of timelines and things like

57:01 that. But yeah, but.

57:03 Yeah, as adamant as Glenda was that this call happened on the

57:08 what was it the Tuesday? Yeah, yeah, on the Tuesday.

57:11 Tuesday morning at 10:00 AM, Even the coroner has discounted

57:16 this phone call as, Yeah, as you said, I think that the wording

57:21 that was used was that this was an outlier and it doesn't have

57:24 explanation. But there's also no, you know,

57:27 there's no, we can't confirm that this call ever happened or

57:31 didn't happen. So it's just one of those

57:34 things. Yeah.

57:35 So at this stage, let's, let's discount the call.

57:38 Let's just say the call never happened.

57:41 Vivian's been missing. So the last time she was seen

57:43 was at 1:00 AM driving away from Mani's house after having

57:47 dropped Fergus at her at Mani's house.

57:52 So what happened to her in that time?

57:54 Yeah. So the inference, Sorry, I guess

57:57 you know. No, that's all right.

57:57 The the homicide homicide squads case is that she has gone and

58:06 perpetrated this crime against Beth.

58:09 They then infer that she has driven her car to the San Remo

58:17 bridge, jumped off the bridge and I guess essentially

58:20 committed suicide. Yeah, there's so much wrong with

58:23 that though. There's so much wrong with that.

58:25 So a couple. OK, let's start with, well,

58:27 actually, let's go back to the crime scene.

58:30 What was found at the crime scene?

58:32 So they found the things that yeah, that we they found that

58:35 put put Vivian there. Yeah, they found a cigarette

58:39 butt with her now confirmed. So this, it took a while for DNA

58:44 evidence to be to become available.

58:47 This happened in 1986. I think the DNA was tested.

58:52 Was it 1993? Yeah, it was early 90s before

58:54 that, 1994. Prior to that they couldn't.

58:56 I mean, not with the cigarettes, they couldn't with the blood

58:58 stuff, they could only tell like blood groups.

59:00 But DNA came into it later in the 90s, yeah.

59:04 I think that. So this cigarette, there were

59:06 two different brands of cigarettes found.

59:09 And one of the brands that was found was the brand that Vivian

59:13 smoked. Yeah, that was kind of all they

59:15 had at the time. So the cigarette butt was

59:17 actually found next to the body. Yeah.

59:20 There were also cigarette butts found in the sink in next to the

59:24 sink in the bathroom. So like they they literally had

59:27 oh, this blows my mind too. They literally had an ashtray

59:30 next to the sink. The sink was found with blood in

59:35 it. So the perpetrator had washed

59:36 their hands in the sink, or at least attempted to wash their

59:40 hands, and they found the same brand of cigarette butt in that

59:45 in that ashtray. And that wasn't the cigarettes

59:49 that any, I think from what I could gather, they, that

59:52 particular brand of cigarette was the only one that Vivian

59:56 smoked. And apparently she was a very,

59:57 very heavy smoker. She wouldn't go anywhere without

59:59 her cigarettes. Anyway, we later find out, you

1:00:02 know, many, many years later, once DNA testing is carried out

1:00:05 on this cigarette butt, that it actually is Vivian's cigarette

1:00:08 butt. So she was there.

1:00:10 And that she was at the same brand and the same ones were

1:00:13 found also in the Land Cruiser at the San River Bridge.

1:00:16 Yeah, so she was at. So I'll be there was I think 2

1:00:23 drops of blood on the path on the way in or out of of Beth's

1:00:28 house, which could be linked to Vivian and a drop of blood on a

1:00:32 hand towel in the bathroom. So not a lot.

1:00:35 There was certainly no DNA of Vivian's found on the body

1:00:40 anywhere. I know you know, like not like

1:00:42 it was under fingernails or any of those sorts of things.

1:00:44 You know, nothing like that was found in Vivian's within scene

1:00:48 in any other way. So these are all things that

1:00:51 could have been planted there, but that would take a lot of

1:00:54 forethought, I think, for someone to.

1:00:57 And as the homicide detective said, like who's doing that?

1:00:59 This is. It I don't think that anyone's

1:01:01 really thinking that much about planning and plotting a scene.

1:01:05 I really don't that really that throws up for me.

1:01:07 It puts it puts it puts Vivian there.

1:01:11 Whether she murdered her or not is another thing, I think, but

1:01:14 it puts her in the house that's we can pretty much draw that

1:01:19 conclusion that she's been in that house.

1:01:21 So the only other evidence is been back at the Cameron's house

1:01:24 where we find again, there's more blood.

1:01:28 And so there's obviously according to Fergus and Vivian,

1:01:34 we there was the altercation with wine glass.

1:01:37 So you would expect that it be Fergus's blood there for that,

1:01:40 but there was also Vivian's blood.

1:01:43 So, and the only bit of Beth's blood that is found in the

1:01:47 Cameron house is a small smudge of Beth's blood on a piece of

1:01:52 paper in a back bedroom where Fergus and Vivian had their

1:01:57 argument. So that's weird.

1:02:00 How did that get? I mean, and obviously Beth had

1:02:03 been in and out of their house being, you know, she worked for

1:02:05 them and and that sort of thing. So it's not like there wouldn't

1:02:08 be evidence of Beth potentially in the house.

1:02:11 But this one smudge of blood is the weirdest thing.

1:02:15 Well, I heard it explained away. I can't remember if it was

1:02:19 within the coroner's findings or not, but that it could have

1:02:22 happened on another day. Because she worked on the farm,

1:02:25 there's a possibility that she might have cut herself or, you

1:02:28 know, in the midst of her work and was tended to inside the

1:02:32 house. Yes, that's one way her blood

1:02:34 could have gotten there. And.

1:02:35 The piece of paper itself, one lot of stuff I found they

1:02:38 wouldn't release what that piece of paper was that the blood was

1:02:42 found on, whereas I did eventually find it and it was a

1:02:46 herbicide information sheet, which I mean that links to, you

1:02:51 know, something Beth would have be handling at the farm with,

1:02:54 you know, her background in horticulture, etcetera.

1:02:55 She would have an understanding of those sorts of things and

1:02:58 need that information without she was doing in her job.

1:03:01 So, I mean, I mean, God, you're going to cut your hand on

1:03:04 various things on a farm. That's for damn sure.

1:03:06 So is it just coincidence that she just happened to injure

1:03:09 herself, you know, days prior and that on that piece of paper

1:03:12 that got brought back to the house, you know, is a smudge of

1:03:15 her blood? I don't know.

1:03:16 That's my, I think. I don't think that that's, you

1:03:18 know, there. I think what I find more

1:03:20 interesting than what was found is what wasn't found.

1:03:25 There's zero blood in the Land Cruiser.

1:03:28 So if Vivian has gone to Beth's house and perpetrated this

1:03:32 murder and got back in the Land Cruiser and then driven to San

1:03:35 Remo, to the bridge, even if she has washed her hands up in the

1:03:40 bathroom, there's got to have been some transfer or something.

1:03:44 But there was. This is the other thing, right?

1:03:47 So talking about transfer of evidence, there's a lot to state

1:03:52 that Vivian maybe wasn't even, I don't even know how this came

1:03:58 about, but so on the back of the Land Cruiser, it was a flatbed,

1:04:03 right? And on it was were bales and

1:04:05 bales of hay. There was so much hay that it

1:04:07 was actually hanging over the side of the.

1:04:09 Truck, you can see it in the photos, in the crime scene

1:04:11 photos. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:04:13 But there was no hay found in Beth's house, in her yard, or in

1:04:18 the driveway or. And anyone who has been on a

1:04:21 farm and around hay, it gets on everything.

1:04:23 It's as bad as bloody glitter like that.

1:04:27 She is everywhere. And yeah, I've had, if she's

1:04:31 pulled up in that driveway and pulled out again, And I would

1:04:33 say, you know, fairly haphazardly, that car's going

1:04:36 to, I mean, I'll definitely land Chris.

1:04:37 It's going to bounce around a fair bit and hay is going to

1:04:39 come off. And you know, there's going to

1:04:40 be a trail of it, but there's nothing.

1:04:43 Nothing. Again, it's that it's.

1:04:45 What's not there is actually more interesting than what was.

1:04:48 Yeah, and then like the fact Vivian's handbag was found in

1:04:54 the Land Cruiser at the bridge, right.

1:04:58 But when was it Robin Dixon went the?

1:05:04 Boys up the. Boys up, which was at like 3:00

1:05:07 in the morning. She claims that she saw Vivian's

1:05:12 handbag at the house and I believe that.

1:05:16 Yeah, I don't think you. I mean, I think it's the sort of

1:05:18 thing you'd be like, oh God, she'd need that at the hospital,

1:05:20 wouldn't she? You know what I mean?

1:05:21 And that's it would register in your brain if you saw it there.

1:05:24 So I do. I do.

1:05:25 I put weight in that. So the thought process is that

1:05:29 she's Vivian. Vivian's gone to Beth, murdered

1:05:32 her, driven home, got the bag for whatever reason because I

1:05:35 don't know why you need that, but and put that in the Land

1:05:37 Cruiser and then driven back past Beth's house where she's

1:05:40 come from to get to the bridge to park her car there with a

1:05:44 handbag. Sorry, love, but you don't need

1:05:46 that in the in the afterlife. So I don't know what you're

1:05:49 thinking of needing that, because if she's mostly going to

1:05:52 kill herself, you need your handbag for.

1:05:55 Hear me out here, Maybe someone wanted to know, wanted everyone

1:06:00 to know. Vivian had driven herself there.

1:06:02 Yeah, so because the out there was somebody did see someone on

1:06:07 a motorbike. Now that particular Land Cruiser

1:06:10 has been it was known to on occasion have a motorbike on the

1:06:14 back of it actually most often, which is not uncommon on a farm.

1:06:17 So it's quite possible that that Land Cruiser was driven to the

1:06:22 San Remo bridge with a the motorbike on the back.

1:06:26 The driver has then got out of the car and got on the motorbike

1:06:29 and ridden the motorbike back to the farm.

1:06:33 So that would be a possibility of being able to dump the car

1:06:36 there in a way. Now who would ride that

1:06:39 motorbike? According to most people, not

1:06:42 Vivian. More likely a male.

1:06:44 I don't think Vivian rode my bikes.

1:06:46 That's what I read. Whereas I would be like Beth, I

1:06:50 would say would ride a motorbike.

1:06:51 I'm not saying women don't ride motorbikes, but from all

1:06:53 accounts, that was not Vivian's thing.

1:06:54 So I don't see her doing that and dump dumping the Land Rover

1:06:58 there, the Land Cruiser there, but maybe Fergus.

1:07:01 That's interesting because the other thing is about that San

1:07:04 Remo bridge as a kid, well, you know, teenage years, we would go

1:07:09 down to Phillip Island for surfing.

1:07:11 And there was actually, I'm actually fairly somewhat certain

1:07:14 that I have even done it. But definitely I've watched

1:07:17 other people do it is jump off that bridge for fun.

1:07:21 People don't jump off that bridge to commit suicide.

1:07:23 There's photos of it. You can see it's not that high

1:07:25 of a bridge. Like it's it's high, but it's

1:07:28 not stupid high. You're not going to kill

1:07:30 yourself jumping off it. No one has.

1:07:32 Ever. Done it before at high tide

1:07:34 there's the water is quite deep there too.

1:07:36 It's not like it's a shallow, you know, a shallow bit of

1:07:39 water. The other thing is that the salt

1:07:42 crust on the railing was undisturbed along the entire

1:07:46 length on both sides of the bridge, so it doesn't look like

1:07:50 anybody has actually climbed up and disturbed it at all.

1:07:54 The. Police divers.

1:07:56 Four days. The police divers searched for

1:07:58 four days. They didn't give up sort of

1:08:00 thing. They would because I'm fairly

1:08:01 convinced that's what she would have done and they've searched

1:08:04 there for four days and not being able to retrieve a body.

1:08:08 So I or anything. No, nothing.

1:08:09 No, even a clothing, Not a. Shoe, not an item of clothing,

1:08:13 not anything. And they scoured every square

1:08:17 inch of that seabed. Apparently it was quite murky.

1:08:21 Yeah. But I mean, police dive as a

1:08:23 train to to dive in those situations.

1:08:26 And they, they do like a grid grid sort of searching pattern.

1:08:30 And they did that multiple times over and over.

1:08:32 They searched around the pylons where they expected they would

1:08:35 potentially find something because it would have gotten

1:08:37 caught. And they, they literally found

1:08:40 nothing. They searched by air as well to

1:08:42 see if they could see anything. They, they have to this day, not

1:08:46 a trace has been found. Vivian.

1:08:52 Of her body, her possessions, Nothing.

1:08:54 No. So the other one, there was a

1:08:56 bus stop right there. Yep.

1:08:58 So I mean, I guess that's sort of the possibility that she's

1:09:01 killed Beth, got on the bus and disappeared.

1:09:06 Actually, I was going to ask you so if that if that's the

1:09:08 scenario, if she did actually kill Vivian and get on a bus and

1:09:12 disappear, let's say tomorrow she appears.

1:09:15 Hi, I'm back here. I am.

1:09:16 I've been living a life and I well and and says, but I didn't

1:09:20 kill Beth, right. Do you reckon they could take

1:09:22 her to trial and pin this on her?

1:09:23 Beyond reasonable? Doubt.

1:09:25 No, I don't. I don't think so.

1:09:30 She No, there is a warrant out for her arrest.

1:09:34 Yeah. So that if, if that ever did

1:09:36 happen, she would be arrested. Yeah, whether she they could

1:09:39 charge her or not. I reckon they would 100% from

1:09:42 the interviews I've seen of the lead detectives etcetera, yeah

1:09:46 they are convinced that that's the only scenario that occurred

1:09:48 here. So I do feel that they would

1:09:50 push forward and charge her. I believe that any half decent

1:09:53 prosecutor, oh sorry 1/2 decent defender and defence lawyer

1:09:56 could easily put doubt in this and get her off look.

1:10:00 I agree. I think on the balance of

1:10:02 probability she had something to do with this.

1:10:06 Yeah. But I don't think that she they

1:10:09 can pin this on her with without the fact that there's there's

1:10:13 just too much reasonable doubt around it.

1:10:16 Yeah, I think it's probably worth noting as well.

1:10:19 In the months leading up to this murder and Vivian's subsequent

1:10:26 disappearance, she'd found Lifeline several times and had

1:10:31 had conversations with friends about.

1:10:36 I mean, I think she was very private.

1:10:37 So she never fully disclosed to anybody what was happening

1:10:41 between Ferguson, Beth, but certainly acquaintances and

1:10:45 friends of hers, They knew something was going on with her.

1:10:48 I think the detectives, the homicide detectives have taken

1:10:52 that as being a little bit of a state of mind and and that that

1:10:58 you know, that this was this rage or whatever was building in

1:11:02 her for for a long time about the situation that Fergus had

1:11:06 put them in and. Again, Fergus in his statement,

1:11:09 I mean, and again, it's only his statement can go by, did say

1:11:12 that she can be very aggressive in her fighting style.

1:11:16 And look, we don't know what goes beyond behind closed doors.

1:11:18 And I know all of her friends all said that she was the most

1:11:20 Placid, you know, person and that I can't see her doing any

1:11:24 of this. But in the state of mind that

1:11:26 she was in, think that there's you've got a kind of error on

1:11:29 the side of there's a possibility here that she could

1:11:31 have snapped and actually gone that.

1:11:33 What involvement do you reckon Fergus had in this?

1:11:35 I know. So I think again, let's put it

1:11:38 all out there. It was never charged.

1:11:40 There is. No, there is no inference from

1:11:45 law enforcement at all that he had anything to do with

1:11:48 anything. He lives as a free man.

1:11:51 And has moved on well and truly he's remarried etcetera yeah

1:11:56 yeah OK. I feel there's a scenario here

1:12:00 where he. I feel like that there's more

1:12:03 behind him potentially being the perpetrator than Vivian.

1:12:07 I'm not ruling out either of them and and I I think to factor

1:12:11 in all the pieces of puzzle this is how I sort of see it and I

1:12:14 have a couple of couple of. Because the timelines are so

1:12:18 dodgy from all of the accounts, it's so hard to piece all of it

1:12:22 together that there's brackets of time that you do kind of go,

1:12:26 well, what happened between then and there?

1:12:28 Was it how they've said it or was is there a completely

1:12:30 different scenario that's possible here?

1:12:32 And I wonder whether the blood on his shirt and the cut of his

1:12:37 ear and all those sorts of things were not made by a wine

1:12:39 glass by Vivian, but we're actually from him.

1:12:43 Beth, he's come home after doing it.

1:12:46 Because from all accounts, actually, Beth was wanting to

1:12:49 separate from Fergus and she was planning on leaving entirely.

1:12:52 She actually quit her job at the Penguin Parade and with Fergus

1:12:55 at the as the farmhand. She actually had the, Fergus had

1:12:58 convinced her to stay and she'd got her job back at the, at the

1:13:02 Penguin parade, etcetera. But she was telling her friends

1:13:05 that she wanted, she felt that she needed to get out of that

1:13:07 situation and it wasn't healthy. So I believe Beth was actually

1:13:12 having a sexual relationship with another young man at the

1:13:19 Times. Yeah.

1:13:20 I mean, it sounds to me like she'd recognise that this wasn't

1:13:24 something that was going anywhere or going the way she

1:13:27 wanted it to go necessarily, and she needed to get out of the

1:13:31 situation. Yeah, so I, I do wonder whether

1:13:35 because Fergus was pretty damn set on her staying, you know,

1:13:39 and convinced her to stay and everything, but so I wonder

1:13:41 whether he did he snap, you know, when she said no, I want

1:13:44 out of this. I've I've met someone else, you

1:13:46 know, maybe he has. He's done though.

1:13:48 He's the one who's cracked it and fit of rage murdered her.

1:13:52 And then he's gone back to Vivian at home and maybe

1:13:56 confessed to her. Fuck, I've done this.

1:13:58 I've, I've murdered her and this is horrific.

1:14:00 What am I going to do? And maybe that's where she's

1:14:02 gone back to the scene with him and things have been found of

1:14:05 hers to see what what happened. That's where and that's where

1:14:08 the you know, the dune has been lifted up over and then, you

1:14:11 know, those sorts of things. Maybe she's the one who's gone

1:14:13 and done that. Maybe she was the one who carved

1:14:16 the A in to make it, although maybe not, I don't know, like.

1:14:20 I really don't know it's. That throws me that whole thing,

1:14:23 yeah, but yeah. I mean, that situation kind of

1:14:26 makes a bit more sense that she'd kind of have the time to

1:14:30 have a cigarette there. Yeah.

1:14:32 Because you think if you've just done this like frenzied stabbing

1:14:35 and you're in the heat of the moment.

1:14:37 Yeah, you're not gonna sit and have a cigarette.

1:14:38 It doesn't get the hell out of there.

1:14:40 Yeah, that to me always seemed implausible.

1:14:43 Yeah, like, whereas to me, if they've both gone back again

1:14:45 after the fact and, you know, to check the scene or whatever, and

1:14:49 then and then they've left and then Fergus has gone.

1:14:51 Fuck, she's and maybe she's then gone.

1:14:52 Hey, well, this is not OK what you've just done to her.

1:14:55 That's horrific. I can't stand like, you know,

1:14:57 and that's when he's killed her too.

1:14:59 I mean, that's that's the only scenario I can put this all

1:15:02 together. But then I know that he, you

1:15:05 know, he's supposedly at Marni's house, but is she just saying

1:15:09 something to his timeline and that because her timeline

1:15:12 doesn't match either? I don't know.

1:15:15 That's where it all gets so messy.

1:15:17 I think you can't. Put it together.

1:15:19 Yeah, look, I think we're never going unless, you know, Vivian

1:15:23 miraculously shows up one day and confesses everything.

1:15:25 I really don't think we're ever going to know.

1:15:28 No. I think the other thing that

1:15:32 sort of fits with that last theory that you were saying

1:15:34 actually that I've just made a note of is when at the murder

1:15:38 scene, the knife was actually left next to Beth's body.

1:15:43 Yes, when the DNA testing was carried out, it was like a 99

1:15:48 point something percent chance that the DNA on that knife

1:15:52 belonged to Vivian Cameron. But that was not the knife used

1:15:56 to make those wounds on Beth. Exactly.

1:15:59 So that knife had been planted. Yeah, but or had it had because

1:16:04 they actually don't know whether that knife was used in the

1:16:07 stabbing. They know it wasn't used to make

1:16:10 the A in her chest or in her in her stomach, but they don't know

1:16:14 what I I don't think that's ever been concluded, whether that was

1:16:17 the knife that actually was used for the murder.

1:16:19 Though they basically said this is definitely it's definitely

1:16:22 not the only knife. Like if it was sort of those

1:16:24 potential there's marks that potentially that knife made, but

1:16:28 it could have been entirely this other.

1:16:29 There's definitely a different blade that was used in the

1:16:32 stabbing to that blade and that blade could have made all of

1:16:36 them. The other one could have made

1:16:38 some of them. So it could be both knives or it

1:16:41 could be only the other one that's not being found.

1:16:44 Yes, so. And again, that's never been

1:16:46 found. No.

1:16:48 So that block the the back at the Cameron's house is a crime

1:16:54 scene photo of a sponge in the sink and a knife which matches

1:16:59 the one that was found. Like it's in the same set or

1:17:01 whatever, same set as the one found at Beth's.

1:17:04 And there's blood on the sponge that clearly she has cut herself

1:17:07 at home, like, I mean, as all of us have in the kitchen doing

1:17:10 things that she's cut herself in there.

1:17:11 So that would suggest that maybe that blood was from then, you

1:17:16 know, that's where that Dnas come from.

1:17:18 And I don't know. Yeah.

1:17:20 There's so many question marks over this case and so few people

1:17:24 who can make statements that marry up to each other and to

1:17:28 actually get true answers that I don't know that we'll wait.

1:17:31 Yeah, we'll ever find. That's why I sit at the top of

1:17:33 this, you know, that I find this case to be ridiculously

1:17:36 frustrating. Yeah.

1:17:38 Yeah, I agree. One day, you know, you would

1:17:41 think as time goes on we may find out more information.

1:17:45 I mean I, I think. I think it would require time

1:17:48 travel to be possible to go back to the moment in time when it

1:17:51 occurred. Or maybe some more information

1:17:53 from Fergus or Mani, I I don't know.

1:17:56 I don't think we're gonna get that, no.

1:17:58 I mean, he's still a very respectable man in what he does

1:18:02 these days. I believe he is like the

1:18:04 managing director of the Philip Island Grand Prix track, you

1:18:06 know, And he's. Yeah.

1:18:08 So he's living a life and doing all those things.

1:18:11 He's, you know, and if he's an, he's an innocent man.

1:18:14 Good on him. That's great.

1:18:15 I hope he is an innocent man. Yeah.

1:18:18 And we could be predicting something, you know, putting

1:18:20 something out there that's not, not true at all.

1:18:22 But I don't know, Vivian being the murderer also doesn't

1:18:27 actually make all that much sense for me.

1:18:29 Same. Not on her own.

1:18:32 No, no. I guess we should probably leave

1:18:35 it there. It's there's, you know, I'd

1:18:37 really be interested to know what other people think.

1:18:39 So please leave comments for us and let us know.

1:18:43 We'd love to love to hear what everyone else thinks and whether

1:18:46 anyone else has any other theories.

1:18:47 Yeah, poster theories for us Tagus.

1:18:50 Love to know what anyone else thinks.

1:18:51 Yeah, for sure. So thanks everybody for joining

1:18:53 us for another episode of Two Crime Besties.

1:18:56 I can't believe we're up to episode 10 already.

1:18:59 That's crazy. It's cool.

1:19:03 According to one of the bit of research I was doing about, you

1:19:06 know, how successful podcasts become successful, you need a

1:19:10 Bank of around 100 episodes before you really start to gain

1:19:14 any traction. So, you know, Oh, we'll.

1:19:19 Keep slugging away, I'm enjoying this.

1:19:21 We'll get you 100 before we know it.

1:19:24 Yeah. Do you have any shout outs

1:19:26 today? I don't, but you do.

1:19:29 There was one you sent me during the week.

1:19:31 Actually, there's a couple you sent me during the week.

1:19:33 I don't know what I sent. You.

1:19:34 Well, one of them was your brother.

1:19:36 I'm not gonna shout out my brother.

1:19:40 Joe, I want Joe No. Joe Mercury.

1:19:43 Yeah, one of my really good workmates.

1:19:45 I think we actually mentioned her in the last episode as her

1:19:48 as her handle, which is Moon Dogs.

1:19:50 I was a good person. That's her.

1:19:52 Yeah. Yay, he has been so lovely to

1:19:57 us. She's shared lots of our posts

1:20:00 and received some really lovely feedback from her.

1:20:02 So thank you so much Joe. We really appreciate your

1:20:05 support and we appreciate everyone's support.

1:20:07 We I thought we've had some really good feedback.

1:20:10 A lot of you know, constructive stuff coming our way as well.

1:20:13 I'm throwing up your. Polls on like TikTok lately and

1:20:16 stuff. We've had a lot of interaction

1:20:17 with that. So that's been really great.

1:20:18 So keep that up too, because we want to hear what your thoughts

1:20:21 are. Yeah, you join in with the

1:20:23 conversation. Right.

1:20:24 And if you want us to cover a particular case, get in touch,

1:20:27 let us know. Get in touch with DMS.

1:20:29 Is that what the kids say these days?

1:20:32 Slide into our DMS, is that right?

1:20:35 Not in a creepy way, OK? No.

1:20:37 No Dick pics. No.

1:20:40 We had to go there. God.

1:20:41 All right, Have a great night everyone, and we look forward to

1:20:46 joining us on the next episode of Two Crime.

1:20:49 Besties see you next week. Stay curious.

1:20:52 Crime besties.