Episode 9 - The Menendez Brothers

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties. Welcome back.

0:19 I'm Meg. And I'm Emma and it is lovely to

0:23 have everybody back for another week.

0:25 We're very excited to bring today's case to you it.

0:28 Is and it's another weird one with it being a Saturday night

0:31 like last time when I recorded on Monday night in our crazy

0:34 busy lives. So just to make it extra.

0:37 Strange tonight. That's it, that's it.

0:39 But we have had a a very nice weekend, haven't we?

0:43 Yeah, and I sound like this, like in like, I sound nasally

0:46 and you know, I'm over, but I'm not hungover.

0:49 OK, I've got a call. I promise it's not leftover from

0:54 the weekend. We did have a very nice mums

0:58 night out with a few friends from our kids school.

1:01 So that was that was really nice.

1:04 It was. So good to get out like that and

1:05 just have a great night. It was really fun.

1:07 It was. It was.

1:09 Sales are flowing. That's it.

1:11 And you, you actually had two nights out in a row this

1:14 weekend, May. I didn't, yeah.

1:17 Trying to do the right thing by work colleagues and then, you

1:19 know, friend stuff to do back it up.

1:22 No, I did think I did well. I think I did well to back it

1:24 up, but not that. I mean, if we couldn't pro out

1:27 that we used to. So it makes it much easier to,

1:31 you know, to pull pull two in a row.

1:34 Yeah, that's it. It was a, it was a topic of

1:37 conversation on Saturday night with everyone about, you know,

1:40 the glory days and how it used to be.

1:42 And there is absolutely no way we could get back there now.

1:45 Like to go out two nights in a row and have like a couple of

1:48 really big nights, get up and go to uni the next day or go to

1:52 work. I was thinking about that the

1:54 other night when we're talking about it and I was, I was crazy.

1:56 I don't know how I did that because I was like going out

1:58 like five nights a week, a good five nights a week.

2:02 If not for, you know, and yeah, going uni, which certainly

2:06 wasn't the hardest thing in the world.

2:07 I mean, most of that time was probably spent at the pub as

2:09 well, let's be really honest. And yeah, then.

2:11 But going to work, I mean, my Sunday mornings at work, I don't

2:15 know how anyone could have let me in that place.

2:20 Those were the days, Yes, I. Can't imagine kids today during

2:24 what we used to do. I mean, they didn't seem to.

2:26 I don't think they could afford to do what we used to do, sorry.

2:28 True. We were talking about that like

2:30 2 on yeah, Saturday night. That kind of cocktail these days

2:34 we'll say like standard, like drink like a vodka Raspberry

2:36 that you'd get out on a night out was like $5.50.

2:38 I mean, God, what's that now? They'd be going to be over $10

2:41 I'm guessing. For sure.

2:42 Like I had a couple of cocktails on Saturday night that were over

2:45 20 bucks, I think so, yeah. You can't, yeah.

2:50 Yeah, it's not. I'm sure.

2:54 No, I mean even a glass of wine these days out is not not cheap.

2:58 No, but anyway, at least good times were had and you know,

3:03 it's nice to have those, those nights out when the kids aren't

3:06 around. It is, it is.

3:08 I mean we managed to get home safely.

3:10 Those bloody Uber drivers sometimes would be quite dodgy

3:14 but not too bad. A night without Uber driver on

3:15 Sunday night, he seemed pretty good.

3:18 Didn't say a word, of course, but you know, it drove fun.

3:20 But my Friday night Uber, God, it's in the cab with a

3:24 girlfriend driving and coming home and like, we're both like

3:27 hanging on for dear life in the backseat.

3:29 Been flying around everywhere. And like he kept like putting

3:33 his foot on the brake. We'd be like full flying forward

3:35 and then full flying back in our seats.

3:36 And you can't say anything. We were both sort of eyeballing

3:40 each other going what's it on? In here we do yeah yeah, like my

3:45 mate can you maybe not fling us around the.

3:48 Oh God, you play. You should go out of the cab out

3:51 of out of the Uber and her place and I that you got like a little

3:54 5 minutes down the road sort of thing and she just says me just

3:57 let me know if you get home safe.

3:58 Please let me. Know if you get?

4:00 Yeah, yeah, we've all had those Uber drivers.

4:10 Really nice. But nice people.

4:12 But why become an Uber driver if driving isn't your thing?

4:15 Yeah. Yeah, I don't know what that

4:17 what the go is with that, you know, you know, they they just

4:20 seem to be generally not good drivers.

4:22 Like, yeah, it's just that they're doing it so a lot, so

4:25 much that they get you like, I don't know, like overconfident

4:28 or I know. Or yeah, I just don't care

4:32 anymore. I don't know.

4:33 I think it was the dude on the Friday night too.

4:35 He was on the phone the whole time, which he turned to us and

4:36 said to us, do you mind if I'm on the phone?

4:38 Like I'm like, I don't know, like you do your thing, we'll

4:40 chat, you know, and he had his little earbud thing in and

4:44 chatting away the whole time just fine, but I don't know that

4:47 he was concentrating that much. What to?

4:48 Say, there you go. He was more interested in what

4:50 he was, who he was talking to than actually driving properly.

4:54 Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

4:56 Fun times. Fun times, yes?

4:59 Should we get into today's case? Yes, this one is green.

5:03 Yeah, yeah. What are we talking about today?

5:05 Well, today we are going to be chatting about the Menendez

5:08 brothers, which is a fascinating case.

5:12 It was back in the late 80s that this took took place in 1989,

5:16 but then obviously bled well into the 90s with in terms of

5:20 the trial and everything that went on after afterwards.

5:23 And it was it was one of those cases became quite infamous in

5:25 terms of like a bit like the OJ case.

5:28 It was very similar time to the OJ case, highly televised in the

5:31 trial, that sort of thing. Yeah, so.

5:33 Just for the day. Oh.

5:34 Sorry, sorry, just to interject quickly there.

5:37 This was actually the first trial that was televised from

5:41 start to end on USTV. So yeah, this kind of set the

5:44 precedent for then that, you know, and, and it was very well

5:49 watched by a lot of people. Yeah.

5:51 And it really set the scene for OJ's trial, which came not that

5:56 long after, not that long after the Menendez brothers trial.

6:00 Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, we were talking the

6:03 other day about how like, because it was so highly

6:05 televised, like everyone knew about this case.

6:07 It was like parodied in so many different ways and many movies

6:10 that we then saw, like, you know, the cable guy, you know,

6:12 Ben Stiller in in the background quite often on ATV, it would be

6:16 Ben Stiller, say, like both the brothers.

6:18 I think he played both characters.

6:19 He did hilarious. Yeah.

6:21 And they were the 30 Rock. Did you ever watch 30 Rock?

6:25 I loved 30 Rock. One of my favourite.

6:28 Yeah, Tracy Morgan in that in one of the episodes he was

6:32 convinced that his children are going to kill him for his for

6:35 their inheritance. And so you got coined the term

6:38 that you know there was going to be menandized.

6:42 I love it, it's so good. Thinking of favorite TV shows.

6:47 I actually have a bit of a link to this case with a favorite TV

6:50 show of mine too. Oh yeah, the bow.

6:52 The bow is long. This because this story was so

6:57 well, you know, known and liked and was so popularized in the

7:03 media or an order actually made a mini series about the show and

7:08 I'm sure you've watched it in, you know, to prepare for today

7:11 or, you know, even in the past just for pure and utter

7:14 entertainment. Loved it.

7:17 Edie Falco playing is the lawyer, so the Menendez brothers

7:21 lawyer in this Law and Order miniseries about the case.

7:26 Yes. And she plays Carmella in one

7:29 of, or in fact in my favorite TV show of all time, which is The

7:32 Sopranos. So yeah, there you go.

7:35 It was awesome in that. Series.

7:37 So I think you're nominated for like an Emmy or something for

7:40 it, I believe, yeah. I can't remember if it was

7:41 Golden Glover, an Emmy, whatever, but.

7:43 I think it was an Emmy. Yeah, yeah, she's such a good

7:46 job. They look so much alike.

7:47 The real deal and her looks so much.

7:49 I know, I know, she and even her manner reasons, she's just,

7:53 she's awesome. I love her.

7:54 Yeah, no, she's. Pretty.

7:56 I love her attitude, I love her accent, I love the way she

7:58 talks. So yeah, shout out to to that

8:03 miniseries. And if anyone wants to sort of

8:05 see a dramatization of of events and it's actually pretty, pretty

8:10 factual. I mean, there's obviously a bit

8:12 of creative license in there, but actually as far as these

8:15 recreations of real life events go, it's actually pretty

8:19 accurate. Yeah, yeah.

8:21 For sure. Cool.

8:23 Yes. I mean, having said all that,

8:26 you know that having laughs and what have you, this case was

8:29 pretty horrific. I mean, who?

8:32 It's not too many cases, I don't think, where children have

8:35 murdered their own parents and and not only just murdered a

8:38 parent, but murdered both parents.

8:40 I reckon they'd be fair. I've only a fair few of those

8:44 across the world. I would, I would suspect.

8:47 Sorry. Yeah.

8:48 Let's get into it. Yeah, I mean, there's there is a

8:50 term for it and it's called patricide.

8:53 So that's yeah, a term for killing your parents.

8:56 So that's obviously you know, enough that that it does have

8:59 its own our name. But yeah, these two brothers, as

9:05 we've alluded to, killed both of their parents.

9:08 So let's have a a chat about the main players in the game.

9:12 Let's. Do that they are.

9:14 They are an interesting family in that Jose.

9:18 So the parents are named Jose Menendez and Mary Louise

9:23 Menendez. Mary Louise goes by the name of

9:27 Kitty and her maiden name was Anderson.

9:29 They were married in 1963 and in 1968 they had their eldest son,

9:36 Joseph Lyle Menendez, who goes by the name of Lyle.

9:40 So we'll be referring to him for the rest of this is as Lyle and

9:44 then they had Eric Galen Menendez in 1970.

9:48 So the the brothers are only a couple of years apart in age and

9:52 by all accounts, they were incredibly close.

9:54 The two brothers, they had a more than just a, a typical

9:59 brotherly bond. I think they were, they were

10:01 very, very close to one another. And, and as the case, as we sort

10:05 of talk more and more about the case, I think that becomes

10:08 pretty evident as to why, why that's the case.

10:13 So Jose and Kitty, as I said, were married in 1963.

10:18 They actually met at at university at Southern Illinois

10:22 College where they were both attending at the time.

10:28 Jose was a very talented athlete and scholar and academic.

10:33 He emigrated from Cuba in 1944 to the United States with his

10:40 family. I believe his family were quite

10:43 wealthy and they were an incredibly academic family in

10:48 and of themselves. Very sporty.

10:50 It sounds like they just had, you know, the whole package.

10:53 Really. Yeah, very high expectations, I

10:55 think in general in the family, which then I think led to

10:59 Jose's, you know, demeanour and and how he wanted to raise his

11:02 own voice for sure. Yeah, that the Menendez brothers

11:06 definitely, definitely had high expectations set on them from a

11:11 very young age to sort of achieve what?

11:14 What I guess achieve highly in every in every?

11:19 Endeavor. Yeah.

11:20 Academic and athletic and socially and you know, all of

11:25 all of everything that goes with it.

11:27 I guess, yeah, Jose was a little bit, well, he was I guess in, in

11:31 certain ways he had the privilege of coming from a

11:34 family with some money, but he then created and forged his own

11:38 path and became quite, you know, his, his career.

11:44 He forged an amazing career for himself and ended up, you know,

11:47 in these multi $1,000,000 jobs. And I guess at the time of his

11:52 death, he was the CEO of Live Entertainment.

11:57 Previous to that, he'd been an accountant for several like

12:02 large organizations. He'd worked for Hertz as his

12:06 chief financial officer. And actually, this is a little

12:09 tidbit of information that I came across when I was doing my

12:11 research. So where they lived in Beverly

12:14 Hills, the Menendez family, they were, they actually lived really

12:18 close to OJ Simpson. So this is one of those full

12:21 circle moments. Go back and have a listen to our

12:23 OJ Two Parts 2 parter if you haven't already, because it was

12:27 great if we don't say so ourselves.

12:30 And that's a really fascinating story, too.

12:33 Yeah. But so Jose, as the CFO of Hertz

12:42 was, he was the one who employed OJ to do the TV commercial that

12:47 we talked about. Yeah, there was.

12:49 A real groundbreaker in that because previous to that,

12:52 celebrities weren't used for endorsements like that.

12:55 That was his idea. Like to not only like to.

12:58 Yeah, He was his idea to go, let's go out and get a celebrity

13:02 to do this. Yeah.

13:04 Yeah, it's funny because, yeah, first time for that.

13:08 And then, you know, as we were saying, the Menendez brothers

13:11 ended up in a cell next door to OJ many moons later.

13:17 And they're like, hey, I remember you.

13:19 You used to come around to our house with barbecues and

13:21 whatnot. That's.

13:23 Someone, someone. It's crazy.

13:33 I guess these people are the one percenters, as in, in so many,

13:37 in so many ways. One, you know, they've killed

13:39 people. They're murderers.

13:41 And amongst the. Wealthiest people, you know, in

13:45 in the country anyway, Kitty was homemaker by and large.

13:53 I think when Kitty married Jose, there was a little bit of an

13:57 expectation on his part that Kitty would play that role.

14:00 And I think, you know, from all accounts, she was, she was happy

14:03 to do that in that she never really had a career or certainly

14:09 not in the in the field that she studied at university.

14:12 I think she did a communications degree.

14:15 People who knew her described her as a highly strung, really

14:20 stressed person. She was on prescription

14:25 antibiotics at the time of her death and I believe had been for

14:29 a very long time. Is it?

14:31 Antibiotics or antidepressants? Oh, did I say antibiotics?

14:35 You. Said antibiotics, but you mean

14:36 I? Yeah.

14:37 I 100% mean antidepressants. Antibiotics are on my mind

14:41 because literally everyone in this house.

14:44 Yeah. Been sick Yeah sorry about that

14:47 guys, you know just. Want to clarify.

14:51 Antibiotics fine. I mean as as are

14:53 antidepressants, but I meant antidepressants.

14:57 Unfortunately, the murder happened in 1989, in August of

15:01 1989, and in 1987. So a couple of years prior he

15:06 actually attempted suicide by overdosing on pills.

15:12 Jose, it was not what I would call the most attentive or

15:18 perfect husband. He was basically cheating on her

15:23 from the moment they got together, certainly throughout

15:26 their entire, the entirety of their marriage.

15:29 And she just kind of, I mean, she knew about it, didn't really

15:33 do much about it. Jose used his wealth and power

15:40 to dictate the lives of certainly of Kitty and the

15:45 brothers and his sons, but also of members of his extended

15:50 family. For sure, yeah.

15:52 I mean he helped out family members financially though in

15:56 that. So I think that, you know, he

15:57 held it in that over them. And if like, well, if you want,

16:01 if you want me to help you, you don't mention things that go on

16:05 within my household, which I think he was.

16:07 You know, it was like this unspoken thing of like, well, I

16:09 can't speak up because the guy's helping me out financially.

16:11 How am I supposed to say, hey, don't treat your wife like that,

16:15 but can I take that hand out? Yeah.

16:17 Well, I think it was. It was pretty well known that it

16:20 was just, we knew they all, everyone knew what was going on.

16:22 But you just don't talk about it.

16:24 Yeah. So I think it's probably worth

16:28 popping a bit of a disclaimer in here too, that things that we're

16:31 about to talk about are quite explicit in nature.

16:35 It's talking about crimes against children and abuse

16:41 against children and against, like, older, older adults or

16:46 young adults, I suppose. Yeah.

16:48 So, you know, if this makes you feel uncomfortable, we

16:51 completely understand. And it might not be the episode

16:54 for you, but I guess from a very young age, Jose was actually

17:02 perpetrating sexual crimes against Jose against sorry, Lyle

17:08 and Eric. And they neither of them knew

17:15 about the other for a very, very, very long time it.

17:20 Was fairly well known amongst family members and friends.

17:23 It was obvious in that there was physical abuse and most

17:27 definitely emotional abuse going on within the family.

17:29 And again, one of those things that just everyone didn't talk

17:33 about, but it was certainly well known.

17:36 But then what was also then going on behind closed doors,

17:39 what the boys claimed then in the trial, etcetera, is that

17:43 there was sexual abuse occurring.

17:45 Yeah, there was. There was it stopped for him at

17:49 the age of eight and it so as, as you said, the boys didn't

17:52 know. They were very much groomed and

17:54 told by their father not to tell anyone about what was going on.

17:58 And so the boys didn't talk about what was happening to each

18:01 of them. And so though I guess a Lyle

18:04 hadn't was under the impression and it stopped for him at 8 and

18:07 what what didn't happen to Eric. But that is basically the

18:10 catalyst then of what was to come with this case that five

18:15 days prior to murdering their parents, Eric had confessed to

18:19 Lyle that his dad had that Jose had been sexually abusing him

18:25 and still was up and like right up until then had been sexually

18:29 abusing him. So Lyle being the older brother

18:32 and incredibly protective, which you don't, I don't can't blame

18:36 him for that, decided that he would, you know, he would

18:40 approach his father to get this to stop, which didn't go down

18:44 well, as you can imagine. I mean, there's so from what,

18:48 from his account of this, his dad basically said, you know,

18:51 you if you breathe a word of this to anyone, he'll be cut off

18:55 from me financially and then also stem two threats of, of his

19:00 life being taken as well and Eric's.

19:02 So for both of them. So apparently over the course of

19:05 those five days prior to the murder, there was numerous

19:08 occasions where things blew up in the household verbally around

19:13 the disclosure of this information between Eric and

19:16 Lyle. So his dad was very much on high

19:19 alert that this information was being potentially going to be

19:24 put out publicly. And that was a big deal for

19:26 Jose. He appearances were everything.

19:30 Yeah. They they orchestrated.

19:33 It's sort of like, you know, that Instagram worthy life that

19:35 we see now so often where, you know, you look at somebody's

19:39 life on Instagram and it looks perfect and idyllic and amazing.

19:42 And the photos are posed and everyone looks lovely and the

19:45 children are nicely dressed, but you don't know what's going on

19:48 behind that picture. And it was a very similar facade

19:51 that the Menendez family were putting out into society.

19:54 They, the boys, appeared to be these amazing, upstanding young

20:03 men who were wonderful at sport and academically gifted.

20:10 We now know, though, that. Their parents were actually

20:14 doing their homework for them because they couldn't do it

20:16 themselves. They, I mean, they weren't, I

20:18 don't think they were necessarily, you know, complete

20:22 and uttered dead shits or anything, but they.

20:25 Eric was a more intelligent academically, Lyle wasn't.

20:29 That I don't think he was a worried Stella, no.

20:31 And that what no means no, but like, I mean, because Lyle was

20:36 but he he got kicked out of the universe.

20:38 Not kicked out, but his grades weren't up to standard for

20:40 Princeton. That was Lyle.

20:42 Yeah, yeah, that was Lyle. Yeah.

20:44 So, you know, Daddy had to fork out a bit of money to make sure

20:48 he stayed on the books at the. He actually plagiarized.

20:54 So in the first six months of his of him attending Princeton,

20:57 well, first of all, it took him a long time to get accepted into

21:01 Princeton. God only knows how that even

21:04 happened. Like did daddy pay some money?

21:08 And like, you know that page entry scandal in the.

21:13 University. So that he got in, yeah.

21:16 Well, he did. That's known, is it?

21:17 Yeah. Yeah, right.

21:19 And then so within his first six months, though, of attending

21:22 Princeton, Lyle was caught plagiarizing a, you know, an

21:27 assignment or something. And to get him out of that, or

21:30 so that that would stay quiet, Jose paid the University

21:34 $50,000. Oh.

21:36 Then maybe, maybe he got in legit but then couldn't, didn't

21:38 stay there legit. I don't.

21:39 Know getting legit. I couldn't find anything to say

21:42 otherwise but my. Tennis scholarship to get in, I

21:45 don't know if he got in on academics, but he had to

21:48 maintain academics to keep the spot and that was where that was

21:52 dropped off. And so therefore it was yeah,

21:54 that Jose stepped in and, and and gave the university a bit of

21:57 money. But I don't know.

21:59 I don't know, 50 grand in the back in that day was maybe a lot

22:02 of money to one of those. Universities, yeah.

22:03 So I think, I think 50 grand, I did look this up.

22:06 I think $50,000 back at that time would be roughly like

22:10 between 200 and $250,000 in today's money.

22:14 Yeah. So it's still a decent chunk of

22:16 money. Yeah.

22:17 I mean, we know Jose was worth somewhere around like the 14 to

22:22 $16,000,000 mark back in the day.

22:25 So that would have been, you know, 2 1/2 times that roughly

22:29 what you get for today's money. So he was incredibly wealthy.

22:33 It's probably worth noting at this point where we're talking

22:36 about money that when the time came to distribute his estate

22:40 after his death, he didn't have a lot of liquid assets.

22:45 So there wasn't a lot of cash in the bank.

22:47 I mean, there was, when I say not a lot, I think it it, it's

22:50 sort of all amounted to the tune of about $2,000,000, right?

22:54 They actually do not know to this day where the rest of his

22:58 money is. So it's suspected that it's in

23:01 offshore accounts here, there and everywhere.

23:03 Nobody knows how to access it where it is.

23:06 It's just sitting somewhere. It's.

23:07 Very well hidden and that's just gotten, you know, well, I well,

23:13 if they are, if they know, they're not saying and they're

23:15 calling. I wouldn't either flawed at

23:17 that. Like you know what, you've got

23:19 to have some sort of exit plan on that sort of money, surely

23:22 like how do you get that money out then if you off the top, you

23:25 know, like he didn't know his kids were going to murder him.

23:27 What if he just had a car accident the next day?

23:29 He. Probably didn't care.

23:32 He probably didn't care. Yeah, true.

23:34 Well, there's a lot of money just to sit somewhere though,

23:36 isn't it? Like not have anything.

23:38 OK, I'm on this. I need to find out how I can get

23:40 this money. OK.

23:42 Then we can retire and just podcast full time.

23:45 Oh, I'm here for it. I'm entirely hyper.

23:47 Fixate that and find out what we're doing.

23:50 Totally. And then we wouldn't have to

23:51 record on a Monday night after work and after doing things all

23:55 day. Back to the case.

23:59 We can dream, we can dream. So the boys exhibited behaviors,

24:03 you know, throughout their life that I guess we now know in

24:06 hindsight, which is a wonderful thing, you know, that it really

24:10 did reflect what they'd been through and the experiences that

24:15 they'd had. I'm mostly referring to Lyle

24:18 exhibiting these symptoms, but Eric certainly had his own set

24:21 of challenges as a 14 year old boy, Lyle was still playing with

24:26 stuffed animals. He was still wetting the bed,

24:31 which it's one of the factors of the McDonald triad.

24:37 I think we've discussed the McDonald triad before, or you

24:39 and I certainly have privately if we haven't discussed it on

24:41 the podcast yet, and it will come up.

24:43 Time and time again, you and me. So yeah, let's discuss that.

24:47 Yeah, Yeah. I guess the McDonald triad,

24:50 which is also known as the sociopathy triad, counts for

24:55 three factors that are linked to homicidal or sexually predator

25:02 predatory behaviour. And they're generally

25:05 demonstrated prior, generally when the person is a child into

25:12 young adulthood, I suppose. And the three factors are

25:18 cruelty to animals, session with fire setting, and persistent

25:24 wedding of the bed after the age of five.

25:27 Yeah. So I'm not saying that we we'd

25:31 have no evidence of the other two factors for Lyle aside from

25:35 the bed wetting and whether there was more going on than

25:38 this. We do know that he'd been

25:42 assaulted by his father throughout his very, very young

25:48 years. It's like the behaviors there

25:52 are probably more indicative of the sexual abuse, which can then

25:56 also lead to other violent behaviours that in that, you

26:01 know, persistent wetting the bed, regression in play, those

26:05 kind of things indicators that there is sexual assault.

26:09 Because the other one that is there is evidence of his that he

26:12 was sexually appropriately sexual with people in that he

26:18 there was like his cousin came from saying that at quite a

26:21 young age. I think I'm similar around about

26:23 1314 sort of age group that he actually put moves sort of on

26:27 her, which was very uncomfortable for her.

26:30 So that sort of indicates as well that there's that sexual

26:33 nature of the things. Yeah.

26:35 The regression in his play and the the bed when he would

26:37 indicate sexual abuse. Yeah.

26:39 Yeah, the incident with his female cousin was interesting

26:43 because he actually sort of made two moves.

26:46 They were wrestling, and he tried to take off her clothes,

26:50 and she sort of screamed and he stopped.

26:53 And then he tried to, like, kiss her, and she said no.

27:01 And then, yeah, it just kind of never went from there.

27:06 So it's like he tried it, she pulled back or she, you know,

27:10 expressed the fact that she didn't want to do it and just

27:13 like. Abnormal sort of play, like in

27:15 the, I guess that rough and tumble play, what, what that was

27:19 treated like by his father in that moment with, you know, what

27:22 normal kids play like was then in his mind, it was natural for

27:27 the next step to be clothed being removed.

27:30 So that's it's that real head fuck that his dad's done to him

27:34 in that unfortunately that's coming through that's.

27:38 Sad. It's.

27:39 So, so sad. The boys really wanted to live

27:42 up to Jose's expectations, and one of the things that he

27:45 insisted on was that they were good at sport.

27:48 And they both chose to pursue tennis as their sport of choice.

27:54 And they'd practice all the time.

27:56 Of course, they lived in, in an absolutely beautiful $4 million

28:00 home in, in Beverly Hills, which had a tennis court that had

28:05 private coaching. And by all accounts, they were

28:08 quite good tennis players. I I don't know that they were

28:12 ever necessarily ranked or anything, but I know they

28:15 definitely played internationally at least.

28:18 It must have been on some kind of amateur circuit.

28:20 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I believe too, like once I'm set

28:24 one stage, I think Lyle started losing his hair and his dad was

28:29 really, really annoyed about this.

28:31 And it was clearly obviously a bit of that the outsider, you

28:35 know, what their perception of what his his son was.

28:38 I don't know if that's like indicated some sort of weakness,

28:41 you know, because he was losing his hair or he didn't fit the

28:44 standard of like a like a what a young man should look like and

28:49 all those sorts of things that he actually made sure that Laura

28:52 toupee to cover up the fact that he was starting to lose his hair

28:57 and. Despite how close Eric and Lyle

28:59 were, Eric didn't actually know that Lyle were toupee until

29:03 after they'd murdered their parents.

29:05 Wow, Yeah. I mean, that shows that shame,

29:07 doesn't it? Ever those sort of things how

29:09 their father obviously put that into their their brains.

29:13 Oh. Yeah, horrible.

29:15 Those poor kids. Those poor kids.

29:17 I mean, there was still a fair, fair whack and nepotism in the

29:21 family. So when Lyle was sort of

29:26 suspended from Princeton for 12 months after his plagiarism

29:30 blip, so dad paid the fine, but he also got a 12 month

29:34 suspension. During that time, Jose by this

29:37 stage was already working at live entertainment and Lyle got

29:43 to work there. I mean, you know, step into a

29:46 role that, you know, your dad's sort of created for you,

29:49 companies created. Or anything.

29:51 Was he like he? Well, he wasn't really like

29:53 working at the bottom, I don't think.

29:55 No, I certainly don't think he started at the bottom, but he

29:58 didn't really make a good name for himself.

30:00 Yeah, he would just not show up for work sometimes or he'd get

30:05 in late. His work ethic was terrible.

30:08 And I guess the boys had really had the men.

30:11 The boys had had most of their most, most things handed to them

30:16 on a civil platter. So there was this real dichotomy

30:19 in in their life. They had a father who was

30:22 abusing them sexually, emotionally, and then yet they

30:28 also lived this incredibly privileged life financially,

30:33 never wanted for anything. The day before the murders took

30:36 place, they'd actually gone out on a boat on a family like

30:41 shark. I think they were looking for

30:43 sharks like a shark watching. Yeah.

30:47 Interestingly, the captain of that boat said that none of them

30:51 spoke to one another. They all kind of sat in

30:53 different popular. The boys, I think, stayed

30:55 together. But Kitty was at one, you know,

30:58 one end of the boat on her own, and Jose was at another.

31:01 And there was a lot of tension there.

31:03 So why they wanted to do things as a family if that was the

31:05 state of affairs, I don't know. I mean, I guess keeping in mind

31:09 that they just had four days before that had a conversation

31:12 with the boys about the abuse or the boys had confronted Jose

31:17 about the abuse, maybe there was still some residual, there would

31:19 have been residual tension from that conversation there.

31:24 I know one of the things that I was really curious about

31:27 actually was whether Kitty knew and what what she, what she knew

31:32 what and what she did about the abuse.

31:36 By all accounts, she knew. Yeah, and.

31:39 As a mother, I just. Can't.

31:42 How you couldn't know that and not do anything about it?

31:48 I think it was the Barbara Walters interview with with the

31:51 brothers which was after they'd been convicted they.

31:55 Were in prison when they when she did that interview, weren't

31:57 they? Yeah, it was actually filmed in

31:58 prison and it was really interesting to see Eric actually

32:03 speak about that fact that it was in those five days that it

32:05 dawned on him that his mom knew and didn't step in.

32:10 Obviously he'd gone for like, I mean, Lyle had put up with it

32:13 until he was eight. I'll hit Eric putting up to with

32:16 it until he was 18. To think that his mother for

32:19 those 18 years had never once stepped in and stopped this from

32:22 happening and knew what was happening.

32:24 And for that to register with him to go.

32:26 She's known this whole time. He apparently then at that point

32:30 went couldn't see the difference between his dad and his mother.

32:34 They became one was the one in his mind that they were both

32:37 equally the same perpetrator. Yeah, I can fully understand

32:42 that psychologically that you know Oh well and good that this

32:45 that dad's the perpetrator of the physical sexual abuse.

32:50 To have the person you're like who is supposed to be your most

32:54 strongest protect, protector, not step up for you in that

32:57 moment and stop it and know all about it.

33:01 That's got really hit home that you're like and yeah, I don't

33:05 know in a way what you're worth is to that person.

33:10 Your family. Yeah, from what I heard, I think

33:12 Eric was really, really close to his mom.

33:16 So yeah, that's that is just, I mean, it's a betrayal on so many

33:21 levels. So the same cousin who Lyle sort

33:27 of had made those inappropriate moves on, I guess she, Lyle

33:34 actually disclosed to her his abuse a little bit later on.

33:39 And at the time she went and went and found her Auntie Kitty

33:47 and told her what Lyle had disclosed to her.

33:52 And Kitty just brushed her off. And, and the cousin says now

33:57 that she just assumed that because she'd told Kitty and

34:00 then she'd heard nothing else about it, she'd never heard from

34:03 the boys again from either of them about the abuse, that Kitty

34:07 had done something about it. And it was all over and done

34:10 with, girls finished. And we just don't talk about it

34:12 anymore. Yeah.

34:13 Yeah. And then to find out as an

34:15 adult, like she was a few years, I think older than the boys, to

34:20 find out after they'd perpetrated these crimes.

34:22 And then, you know, subsequently at the trial that the abuse

34:28 persisted beyond her disclosure to Kitty.

34:32 I mean, and that the guilt, it's hard.

34:37 Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, should we get into the

34:44 actual dying on the advent of the of the murders pretty full

34:48 on. So as we said, like this five

34:50 day build up really to this is what the what brothers have put

34:53 forward of these knowledge within the family.

34:57 And so the boys were basically, I keep saying the boys I

34:59 shouldn't because I heard that 18 and 21 at the time.

35:02 So they weren't always, they were adults at this point, but

35:05 still living in their parents home and obviously felt very

35:11 controlled by their by their father, particularly in terms of

35:15 I think because of the physical and emotional abuse and the

35:17 sexual abuse. But also financially, if you

35:19 know, they were very much feeling that they had no way

35:22 out. There was no way out of this.

35:24 And so they had conspired that they would kill their dad and

35:29 they felt that they had no other options.

35:31 They were going to get killed if they didn't kill.

35:33 So they went to buy guns. And which just blows my mind.

35:38 America, please, with the guns, they went to go and buy them in

35:42 the state they were in in Los Angeles.

35:45 And it turned out that they had to wait to be able to get them

35:47 there. So they went to the next state

35:49 over, I believe, and were able to buy these massive shotguns

35:55 like, yeah, what they called. Did you have it there?

35:57 What they? I wrote, I wrote it down.

35:59 Look, I'm not a gun person so I had to actually Google what this

36:02 gun looked like and what I mean what a shotgun actually looks

36:07 like. Yeah, but they purchased 2

36:10 Mossberg 12 gauge shotguns. Yeah, they're massive.

36:14 You have to like you like do a full, you know, pump thing to

36:18 like, you know, and get the next one going.

36:20 Yeah, pellet thing. The bullets were, you know, a

36:22 couple inches long. They're just some serious damage

36:26 to you. But when they first bought them,

36:28 they came with like these pallet things, but I guess that'd be

36:32 like not not or some sort of blank like they they were called

36:34 bird bird I think. They're like a rubber kind of

36:37 pallet or something. Yeah, and like which wouldn't

36:39 injure someone that much. So they had to then go and get

36:42 different ammo that can get full blown kill your ammo stuff like

36:46 I'm not a bit not a not a gun person.

36:48 I've got no idea of the but I know like a.

36:51 Live round or something? I don't know what that sounds.

36:54 Sounds right. Yeah.

36:55 Something that for work. Yes.

36:57 These giant shotguns, they went and purchased one each of those.

37:01 So I mean, this all goes to premeditation for this murder.

37:04 You know, it was a couple of days prior to them doing this.

37:08 When it got to the day of, they had planned to go out for the

37:12 evening to go and watch a movie and go to dinner.

37:15 And I think there was a bit of a, a row between them and, and

37:19 their parents. And so at about, I think it was

37:22 about 10:00 in the evening, Kitty and Jose had gone down to

37:27 the den to watch TV and have some ice cream and blueberries.

37:31 So they were just fairly regular evening.

37:35 But Lyle and Eric decided this was the moment that they needed

37:38 to get rid of them. And so they went and filled

37:42 their shotguns with the ammunition.

37:45 And the words of Black Eric in like and Lyle at the Barbara

37:49 Walters interview was that they just walked in and started

37:52 shooting. Because if they pause at any

37:55 moment, they would have not gone through with it, which I find

37:59 really interesting. Me too.

38:00 It's like they felt like they had no other choice, that they

38:03 had to do this because they could not continue on otherwise.

38:08 Yeah, so they began shooting straight away.

38:11 They hit Jose 1st and he ended with a his life.

38:16 I think they hit, they shot him five times with the the worst

38:21 shot was at the back of the head, which left a gaping hole

38:26 in the back of his his head that was large enough for a a man's

38:29 hand to fit her fist to fit inside.

38:32 Yeah. So it was close range shot to

38:35 the back of the head. That was what killed him.

38:37 Yeah, apparently Kitty was absolutely beside herself and

38:41 trying to was screaming, trying to get out of the way.

38:44 The boys shot her, I believe, to begin with, it might have been

38:47 six to eight shots. They got into her before they

38:51 realized they ran out of ammunition.

38:54 And she wasn't dead yet. So she.

38:56 Crawled along the floor. They went out to their car

39:00 again, refilled the shotguns with more ammunition and went

39:06 back in and continued to shoot at Kitty.

39:09 One of the actually. Yeah, the right.

39:12 Shot right to her cheek. To her cheek.

39:15 They held the gun to her cheek and shot her to the point where

39:19 she was unrecognizable from the the gunshots, and I think they

39:24 ended up shooting her ten times in total.

39:28 Yes. There was 10.

39:29 Absolutely horrific. So the boys at this point

39:35 sitting there with their dead parents in this horrific scene,

39:41 their assumption was that the cops would somebody in the

39:44 neighbourhood would hear this. I mean, the gunshots would have

39:47 been very loud. They assumed that someone in the

39:50 neighbourhood would hear that and the cops would arrive

39:52 immediately. You know, they'd be hearing

39:54 sirens within minutes and that'd be that.

39:57 And they'd be, I guess their expectation was that they would

40:00 then be able to have the cops come in and then go.

40:02 We had no other option. This is what happened.

40:05 We shot our parents. You know, they weren't going to

40:07 like fly at that point or just going to fess up to the fact

40:11 that they had no other choice but to.

40:13 It was a defense defensive thing.

40:15 They killed their parents, but no cops arrived, so they didn't

40:19 know what to do. And so they jumped in the

40:22 shower, washed off. They ended up.

40:25 Getting in the car and driving, they dumped the shells from the

40:29 ammunition over a Canyon. They dumped a bag of the clothes

40:34 that they'd been wearing. They dumped the shotguns, I

40:37 believe, as well. Yeah, got rid of those.

40:40 And then wearing it, went out and bought ticket stubs to the

40:43 movie that they were planning to go see.

40:45 I believe they went to dinner and then close to midnight, they

40:49 came home again. And at this point was when they

40:53 rang the police, Yeah. And so you can go online and you

40:57 can check out their 911 call to the police.

41:00 And it was made at about 11:50, I think it was.

41:03 And look, we 100% know that they, you know, that they did

41:08 this. They are not hiding that fact at

41:10 this day. So we can feel free to judge

41:13 this nine on one call, unlike usually where we say, oh, you

41:15 can't judge people on a nine on one call, we'll judge.

41:17 Yeah, because you never know how you're going to react if you're

41:20 in the same situation. Well, yeah, we weren't.

41:22 We know the outcome of this one. So Lyle makes the phone call and

41:26 he is incoherent. He's beside himself.

41:31 Or seemingly. I mean, he would.

41:32 You would be beside yourself, though, wouldn't you?

41:34 Even if. I guess if I mean it's.

41:36 Murdered your parents? You know, monster versus

41:39 defensive, you know, like as in if you're the monster, it's it's

41:44 fake. If you're not the monster and

41:47 you genuinely felt like this was your only option in life, then

41:51 yeah I guess it is real but and you would be the fudge self.

41:55 Yeah, Eric, Eric sort of over acted.

42:00 Well, he'd have the acting classes.

42:02 I mean he should be able to do this far better.

42:04 Yeah, that's it. And he but he like he was

42:06 banging his head against the pavement on the front, out the

42:09 front and making a real scene. Just two things of note here

42:14 that I just thought we should have a quick chat about before

42:16 we move beyond it. For sure there were there were

42:19 two things that the boys did that also speak to

42:22 premeditation, or at least them thinking about how they were

42:26 going to get themselves out of this.

42:27 The first one was that they decided when they sort of

42:32 realized, I think that, oh, my God, the police aren't coming.

42:34 We're going to have to come up with a different story and

42:36 figure out what we're going to do.

42:38 They actually ended up shooting both of their parents in the

42:40 left kneecap because the story, yeah, the story that they

42:44 decided they they'd come up with is that it was a mob hit.

42:48 Given Jose's, I guess, ties to the entertainment industry and

42:55 the people that he surrounded himself with, it was.

42:58 Certainly not unreasonable. It wasn't.

43:01 It wasn't unreasonable, and the cops believed it.

43:04 Yeah, the cop, when they interviewed Lyle and Eric not

43:08 long after, well, very soon after the murders, they said,

43:12 who do you think might have done this to your parents?

43:15 And they both were like, maybe you should check out the mob.

43:17 And the cops were like, oh, yeah, fair call.

43:18 Like yeah, their left kneecaps were shocked.

43:21 Yeah, totally. There was one story even where

43:24 Lyle said, you know, I'll look. I've spoken to my uncle who's

43:26 dealt, who's spoken to the person, and we're not in any

43:29 danger. So it's OK.

43:30 You don't have to like, protect us.

43:32 The, you know, the children, the mob have said that we're safe,

43:35 like, and they bought that. They totally bought that

43:37 information. Seriously.

43:41 Seriously. The other thing worth noting

43:43 though, as well, and this sort of goes back a little bit of

43:46 time as well, is that Eric and a friend of his actually wrote a

43:51 screenplay in which the main, the main characters, who were

43:57 two brothers, murdered their parents.

43:59 And Lyle read the screenplay, and that was sort of what

44:03 informed what they ended up doing.

44:06 Lyle's like, yeah, let's just let's do that.

44:09 Yeah, well, he's in. His screenplay that he wrote was

44:11 even based on a movie that had come out not long before that

44:14 called The Billionaire Boys. Yeah, he's seen it.

44:18 I haven't seen it. I really need to need to give it

44:21 a watch. Yeah, it's a full, you know, the

44:23 Rat Pack kind of group of, you know, they're all in at the

44:26 usual suspects of the late 80s. And it's it's not, it's not bad

44:30 a movie, but I didn't realize that that was even based on a

44:32 true story itself. So, yeah, it's interesting.

44:36 Yeah. I mean, if he's he's kind of

44:38 fantasized about what this was, but of doing this for.

44:42 Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

44:44 And Eric even confessed to this friend at one point that they'd

44:49 done the murder not long after the murders.

44:52 And then the police tried to get that friend to wear a wire and

44:55 have Eric confess again, and it didn't quite pan out the way

44:58 they wanted it to. Yeah, it wouldn't be a second

45:00 time. The police were jaded right from

45:03 the get go with this, so I think.

45:04 The biggest issue was that when the police that did arrive on

45:08 the scene were the Beverly Hills Police Department.

45:11 Apparently in Beverly Hills Police Department only have a

45:15 maximum of about two murders a year that they deal with.

45:19 In comparison, the LAPD if they had arrived, they deal with was

45:25 it 3000? No, it's it's.

45:28 About 30 a week. 30 a week, right?

45:31 Yeah, a lot more than the Beverly Hills Police Department.

45:35 So the Beverly Hills Police Department were a bit more

45:39 relaxed about the situation in terms of not coming.

45:42 By they were. So when they arrived, they

45:45 legitimately just were like these poor boys, like you know,

45:48 who walked in and found and their parents killed.

45:51 They just took the scene for what it was.

45:53 And they like obviously they they do the right things in

45:56 terms of the scene and protecting that.

46:00 But with the two boys, they literally they didn't separate

46:04 them. They kept them together.

46:06 They did take them back to the police station to get

46:08 statements, but they didn't check them for and get them

46:10 checked for gunshot residue. So they just were considered

46:16 innocent from the get go, the booth of them sorry.

46:19 And that really I think put the investigation on the back foot

46:23 in for the rest of the time. They did not protect the boys

46:27 for quite some time. And then a few meetings really

46:31 started falling into place, didn't they?

46:33 So they were following this mob route really from the from the

46:36 very beginning, not thinking about the boys whatsoever being

46:39 relate in relation to this, not until they decided to the boys

46:43 really started living it up really.

46:45 And that sort of red flags for the place that hang on a second.

46:48 That's not typical behaviour of people who've just lost their

46:52 parents in such. Yeah.

46:57 Yeah. So within the first, I think it

47:00 was within the first four months, they'd spent about

47:02 $700,000. They bought Gold Roll a Gold

47:07 Roll XH up to the tune of $15,000 apiece.

47:11 I'll bought a new Porsche Carrera, I think.

47:14 Yeah, and and Eric bought a Jeep Wrangler.

47:19 Yep, Yep. They bought Armani suits.

47:23 They bought. I got an Untold.

47:26 Amount of each. I was going to say they bought a

47:28 condo each. Yeah, the.

47:30 Next day each other they moved into, so they didn't move back

47:32 into that house. You know, after that they're

47:35 cool. Fair enough.

47:36 Yeah. Bought 2 condominiums next door

47:37 to each other to move into. Yeah, yeah.

47:41 Yep, they bought businesses and just ran them into the ground or

47:45 didn't even. Didn't know what to do.

47:46 They didn't have a town yet. Yeah, exactly.

47:49 Yeah, they have. They certainly hadn't inherited

47:51 any of their father's business acumen.

47:54 Yeah, yeah. And that's where that

47:56 contradiction like though comes out in that how they were

47:59 raised. It was such a strict, horrific

48:02 household in terms of consequences of, you know, the

48:05 physical nature of consequences and emotional outside of outside

48:09 world beyond what happened in that household.

48:11 It was 0 consequences for these boys in reality.

48:15 So therefore be able to be able to function without these

48:18 parents, you know, picking up the pieces for them sometimes

48:21 whatever they weren't able to survive in that scenario.

48:25 No, they weren't. Within the first six months of

48:28 the deaths, they'd spent nearly $1,000,000.

48:31 Oh. God.

48:32 And that's $1,000,000 in 1989. Nineteen. 90 like two and a half

48:37 million now roughly roughly. I mean I could, don't get me

48:41 wrong. You just need to go to the

48:43 supermarket and buy a loaf of bread and a bottle of milk these

48:48 days to spend that. But yeah, they, they certainly

48:52 bought whatever they wanted. And that definitely raised

48:53 suspicions for the police. They rocked up to their parents

48:57 memorials, you know, with these new gold Rolexes, these, you

49:01 know, incredible suits. The police were still processing

49:04 the crime scene. They turned up to the house and

49:06 demanded to get their tennis gear because they had a tennis

49:09 lesson they had to attend. And that was within a, you know,

49:11 a day of their parents, you know, dying at their hand.

49:16 But they kind of just went back to BAU and, and kept going with

49:21 them. So I.

49:21 Mean fascination in my mind in terms of it's a clear indicator

49:25 of the kind of abuse that they had that they hadn't they hadn't

49:29 thought their brains hadn't fully developed to me like to

49:32 register grief or all these sorts of things of how you,

49:36 like, they didn't even know how they were supposed to act.

49:39 You know what I mean? Like a fully functioning brain

49:42 would go, OK, I did this, but I wanted to know and so I know

49:45 that I've got to act a certain way.

49:47 They didn't go to lay low. To do that they they had not

49:50 their their brains are to me were not fully developed of an

49:53 1821 year old like to think of you know chemical.

49:59 Prior, prior to the murders as well, the boys had had broken

50:04 into like their parents friends homes and they, they stole

50:10 something like $100,000 worth of goods just for the sake of it.

50:14 Yeah, like they and, and Jose bailed them out of that as well.

50:19 So in order for them not to go to prison, so at the time that

50:24 they, they perpetrated these, you know, break and enters and

50:28 they, they were so brazen about it.

50:30 He'd back a truck up to people's houses and literally just take

50:35 out whatever they could get. Oh my God, the truck and move

50:38 on. Like TV's.

50:39 I mean, I guess back in the day you didn't have flat screen

50:41 TV's. It would have been these giant

50:43 CI didn't want to do it. I.

50:44 Think that's it. I'm lucky to get a remote.

50:48 It would have been attached to it, I guess by a, you know, a

50:50 spiral. Hold on, in the 80.

50:52 Oh yeah, actually, no. That maybe it would have been

50:54 had the cord attached. Still these days would have no

50:59 idea, no. No, no, no.

51:02 We used to have a rank arena that you had to get up and like

51:04 change the channel on that didn't have a.

51:06 Remaining Oh don't worry my parents.

51:08 The pet TV we had is our family TV.

51:10 One day we walked through a museum and that TV was in it.

51:15 We let our parents come up. They still have it to this day.

51:18 No no no no. Can't get the good HD on on the

51:21 old rank arena. Fast forward and replay his

51:25 news. Bless.

51:32 Anyway, so the boys have perpetrated these crimes and to

51:37 basically make good on everything.

51:40 At the time that they perpetrated them, I think Lyle

51:43 was 19 and Eric was about 17. So Eric wasn't yet of adult age.

51:50 So Jose decided that Lyle would claim innocence.

51:55 They'd pin it all on Eric. And because Eric wouldn't go to

52:00 prison because he was underage and he was a juvenile and first

52:03 offense and bloody blah blah, Jose then paid back all of their

52:08 friends who they'd stolen from, all of them.

52:10 They just gave them cash to replace everything, just paid

52:13 them off. And Eric was caught like court

52:19 ordered to participate in. He had got some community

52:23 service hours, but he was called, ordered to participate,

52:27 to receive psychological therapy.

52:29 Yes. And the psychologist who they

52:33 were introduced to at that time was none other than Doctor

52:38 Jerome Ozil. So he becomes really important

52:41 in this case because Jerome saw Eric for for during all this

52:47 time. So from the time when he was

52:48 about 17 all the way through the murders and Eric, I guess they

52:54 as you would seeing a psychologist for such an amount

52:58 of time, they developed a relationship where Eric really,

53:01 I guess trusted him and disclosed a lot of information

53:03 to him. Not about the sexual assaults,

53:06 which is interesting, but other aspects of the abuse were

53:10 certainly discussed in those sessions.

53:12 And one day after the murders, Eric a carnival got too much for

53:19 him and he ended up confessing to Doctor.

53:23 Unbeknownst to Eric, Doctor Azil recorded their sessions and

53:29 kept. I think he did it for everyone.

53:31 It wasn't just for Eric Menendez.

53:33 It was just part of, I guess the way he practised.

53:36 He's not. Yeah.

53:38 Yeah, yeah. So Eric's confessed to him.

53:43 Doctor Azil then basically says that Lyle needs to come down and

53:47 and have a chat as well. Lyle comes down and he is

53:51 absolutely furious with Eric, furious at the whole situation

53:57 that Eric's disclosed what they've done.

53:59 Lyle threatens Dr. Ozil and basically says to him, if you

54:04 tell anybody that we've done this, you'll end up in the same

54:06 way. Well.

54:07 I think he, like, he actually said the words, Eric, we're now

54:09 going to have to kill him and his family because, you know, so

54:12 he'll have to keep him quiet. Like, so it was threatening not

54:16 only him, but his or his extended family, too, his wife

54:18 and children. So that was, yeah.

54:21 His wife and children. And unbeknownst to everyone in

54:24 the situation, Doctor Ozil had a little peace on the side by the

54:29 name of Judalon Smith. She was his mistress and also a

54:32 patient of his. So I think that speaks to the,

54:35 you know, the ethical prowess of this man.

54:39 Yeah. Or lack thereof, like.

54:41 And he decided that he needed a witness.

54:44 So if anything did happen to him or to his family that he wanted

54:51 the mistress to sit in the waiting room, he'd get Lyle and

54:55 Eric back and get them to confess again.

54:58 And, you know, have her, you know, listening through the wall

55:01 or through the door so that he had a first hand witness of of

55:05 what had happened. Judalon agrees to this at the

55:08 time because she is absolutely infatuated by Doctor Ozil.

55:14 Excuse me. And what happens next, Meg?

55:19 Yeah, so, yeah, so Judalong listens in Jerome Ozil.

55:23 Dr. Jerome has also told his wife at this point though as

55:26 well that that Eric has confessed.

55:30 So he has broken client patient privilege already by telling

55:37 other people about this. However, according to Eric, he's

55:41 only aware that he's told he's he's psychologist.

55:44 So therefore he's under the impression that that is

55:47 privileged information. However, the moment Lyle

55:51 threatened the psychologist, that goes out although so

55:57 sitting in the waiting room is Judalon listening in now.

56:00 Not long after this, the doctor Jerome actually breaks up with

56:06 Judalon and she is furious. She was not happy about that so.

56:13 We told her that he was going to leave his family in stock for

56:15 her as they as they do. He'd been leading her on and

56:19 yeah, she fully drank the kool-aid and thought that he

56:23 would. So she was absolutely a woman

56:25 scorned by the time. Totally, Yeah.

56:29 So he, she then sorry, goes, she decides to take this information

56:33 to the police, which I mean, good morning, really, to be

56:37 honest. Yeah.

56:38 Yeah. Because he had broken the

56:40 privilege already by telling her.

56:41 And So what? She's not under any any

56:44 obligation to keep this information, nor would it have

56:46 his his wife. So, yeah, so she went to the

56:49 police and told them about these.

56:51 And so they, that gave them enough to arrest the boy, to

56:55 arrest the two brothers. That was in October, I believe,

57:00 90, No 90. Yeah, they arrested.

57:04 First of all, they arrested Lyle because at the time Eric was

57:08 actually in Israel in a tennis tournament, so they had to wait

57:12 for him to come back from there, and then they arrested him at

57:15 the airport. Yes.

57:16 So I think Eric voluntarily came back into the country and sort

57:21 of surrendered, you know, to the police and to the yeah, to the

57:28 warrant that was out, out for his arrest.

57:31 Yes. So from there basically though,

57:34 because the the main evidence they had was the fact that there

57:39 was a confession. It was then it went through the

57:42 Supreme Court for like 2 years with the an appeal on whether or

57:45 not this information could be used at Trump.

57:48 So from basically once they got through all that and the

57:50 decision was that those tapes could be used and that Jerome

57:55 Azil would be to painted as well as his notes, all those sorts of

57:58 things, he would have to testify and not pager himself and

58:02 obviously be honest around what had happened.

58:04 He then was given a a date for trial.

58:08 So I think it was three years past the actual by the time they

58:11 actually had a date for trial. So basically they started out

58:15 the boys going into court wearing these Armani suits,

58:19 probably the ones that they bought with the money after the

58:23 parents death and looking quite sharp and a little bit arrogant

58:28 reading, having a laugh or whatever here or there.

58:30 And then they managed to get hold of a lawyer by the name of

58:35 Leslie Abramson, who as we were talking earlier, was depicted by

58:39 80 Fal Falcon in the that series, the Lauren Order series

58:44 in the Yeah, yeah. So and she was incredible, a

58:48 great lawyer. She did her very absolute

58:51 amazing job in this. And what she did was when they

58:55 came, then when it came to trial, she had changed their

58:59 appearance entirely in that they were wearing pastels and like

59:04 and little. Shirt.

59:05 Shirt, shirt collars coming out and she would purposely touch

59:09 them all the time, you know, make them appear very human.

59:14 And and childlike. Very, Yeah.

59:17 Childlike. Yeah.

59:18 So was very purposeful what she had done there to portray these

59:22 boys. They don't.

59:23 They were. She was portraying them as boys

59:25 and not as monsters. You know, to really, I guess,

59:29 sway A. Jewelry.

59:30 She even kept referring to them as the boys, the boys, the boys.

59:34 Yeah, which way they were going, men by this point, both of.

59:36 Them. They were men.

59:37 They were in their well in their 20s at this point.

59:39 I know at one stage, Eric, there was a quote out of the the the

59:43 Robert Walter's interview where he said I'm just a normal kid

59:47 and he was 25 when he said that. I found that a bit unnerving to

59:51 be honest. I just sort of thought no.

59:53 The man, but their emotional growth, I guess, and is stunted.

59:59 Yeah. I mean, through the trauma of

1:00:02 what they'd experienced throughout their life, it

1:00:04 doesn't surprise me that they still see themselves as

1:00:06 children. I sometimes can't believe that

1:00:10 I'm an adult. What should I?

1:00:13 Do I don't wait? I've got responsibilities like.

1:00:15 What I know, yeah. Yeah, it's that that didn't

1:00:20 surprise me. I think Leslie had a really

1:00:23 lovely relationship with the men, with Menendez brothers,

1:00:28 with the brothers. He fought for them like they

1:00:31 were her own children, I think. And and she really believed that

1:00:36 had they not been abused, this would never have happened.

1:00:39 And socially argued, you know, with everything she had to

1:00:43 really make the jury see, you know, see the situation for what

1:00:50 it was. And interestingly, the boys,

1:00:53 actually, they actually had their own jury in this first

1:00:56 trial. So there were two separate

1:00:57 queries, A jury for Lyle, a jury for Eric.

1:01:00 And if there was testimony to be heard that only pertained to

1:01:03 Lyle, Eric's jurors had to file out of the court.

1:01:06 You know, it would have been such a disruptive way.

1:01:08 I don't know why they. Did that.

1:01:10 I don't know why. Such a disruptive way of running

1:01:12 the trial. Absolutely.

1:01:13 As it turned out, both juries came back deadlocked.

1:01:18 I can't believe that that happened.

1:01:19 Like, I mean, it must have been to me, it has to be something to

1:01:22 do with how it functioned for them to come back with that.

1:01:26 I really, I don't understand. I mean, they were basically the

1:01:29 fact of the matter is they they were saying they were guilty.

1:01:32 They were saying they were innocent.

1:01:34 They were basically just trying to argue the fact that they

1:01:37 were. It was a defensive act and

1:01:39 therefore manslaughter and not first degree murder, although at

1:01:43 this first trial there's no clear indication of that from

1:01:47 the judge. In terms of what?

1:01:49 I don't think he made it clear enough what they could come

1:01:53 back. Everything was all on the table,

1:01:55 wasn't it? Yeah, I think for the first

1:01:57 trial everything was on the table, so it really gave the

1:02:00 jury open slather. But they couldn't that.

1:02:03 Doesn't really surprise me that they couldn't then all come to

1:02:06 an agreement. Because the prosecution was

1:02:09 disgusting. It was awful.

1:02:12 Yeah. And look, it was the time.

1:02:14 I get that to a degree that the quote was men can't be raped

1:02:21 because they don't have the equipment to be raped.

1:02:25 What though she honestly a lot of allusions to Eric being gay

1:02:31 and that he wanted to be sodomized because he was gay.

1:02:35 And she yeah, very much betrayed the fact of like that these that

1:02:39 he had to be gay because he was. He obviously enjoyed it because

1:02:42 otherwise he would have told his dad to stop home and make sure

1:02:45 it didn't happen because he was because how I got his age word

1:02:48 and stuff, which just. I mean the.

1:02:50 Boys, in their testimony spoke about how they would bleed when

1:02:53 it happened. He he not only sodomised them,

1:02:57 he also forced them to perform oral sex on him.

1:03:01 The the acts were actually, yeah, horrific.

1:03:05 Mm hmm. And I mean none of that makes

1:03:07 you gay. Who cares if you gay it like has

1:03:09 no it. Has no bearing on.

1:03:12 It in that conversation whatsoever but like to make

1:03:15 statements men can't be racist. It's incest regardless of the

1:03:20 gender of the child and the perpetrator.

1:03:23 I mean, I know that Lyle has said, you know, I wonder if he

1:03:26 would have been been seen differently and if he would have

1:03:29 been seen differently if he was protecting a sister.

1:03:32 And I have to agree with him on a level that I think society

1:03:35 would have seen this a lot more differently if he was protecting

1:03:38 a girl over his younger brother, which is just, that's not OK in

1:03:44 my mind. I I hope we've come beyond that

1:03:48 now in this day and age. Yeah, I think some of.

1:03:51 Us stop letting the victims yeah, stop it.

1:03:53 That's that's we don't do that, no.

1:03:56 I think I know there's enough evidence of like this being

1:04:00 known to have been happening. As in no, of course no one

1:04:04 witnessed it. Owen Kitty, who is also dead.

1:04:08 But there's enough evidence of the behaviour of the boys.

1:04:12 You know, that psycho. If we had psychologists up on

1:04:14 the stand, I'm sure they would talk to the fact of like, OK,

1:04:16 they hadn't treated the boys, but that there are certainly

1:04:19 behaviours that indicate potentially abuse.

1:04:22 Yeah. But also the the first hand

1:04:24 evidence from cousins and who are your first friends in life?

1:04:27 They they had information. There was one of the, I was the

1:04:30 one of the boys cousins who said that there was just a known rule

1:04:35 that if Jose was up in the bedroom with one of the boys,

1:04:37 you didn't walk down the hallway.

1:04:42 So there was something going on that shouldn't have been, you

1:04:44 know, there was enough. There's enough there to know

1:04:48 that these boys were not making this up.

1:04:51 And I think again, it was in the Barbara Walters interview where

1:04:54 she made it, asked a question which look, I didn't like her.

1:04:57 She was quite aggressive with them and clearly.

1:04:59 Thought I did not like that interview at all.

1:05:02 But yeah, she asked a question that I, I wanted to ask, but she

1:05:05 just did it in a way I just like.

1:05:07 But she asked Eric you that she obviously felt you felt

1:05:11 comfortable enough to tell, to confess to your therapist about

1:05:14 murdering your parents, but you never felt comfortable enough

1:05:16 with him to confess about the sexual abuse.

1:05:20 And his response to that was shame.

1:05:25 It's like, wow, you felt less shame around killing your

1:05:28 parents than the sexual abuse, which says so much to me.

1:05:34 That speaks volumes that you know, that's that whole, you

1:05:36 know, women wanting to be in the woods with a bear rather than a

1:05:39 man that you know, they the on on effect of abuse is worse than

1:05:45 being killed. You know, my God, that is that's

1:05:49 heavy, isn't it? Is that's really, really heavy.

1:05:53 Yeah. I think it's poor boys.

1:05:55 I mean, I guess following the the deadlock of the deadlock

1:06:00 jury that, you know, both trials were ended in a mistrial and so

1:06:05 they had to go to trial against the mistrial occurred in January

1:06:10 1994 and they weren't retried until the end of 1995 and it

1:06:15 didn't conclude until 1996. So this is what, seven years

1:06:18 after the? It's crazy, isn't?

1:06:21 It it's a long time. Yeah.

1:06:23 This time the judge, they had the same judge presiding.

1:06:27 There was only one jury for both of them, and the judge decided

1:06:33 that the sexual abuse testimony was inadmissible.

1:06:37 Which I'm shocked. And why that couldn't be.

1:06:41 Yeah, I'm in two minds about it. I think it should have been

1:06:45 allowed. Yeah, that's.

1:06:48 What? I'm in two minds because the

1:06:50 judge decided that there was only two outcomes being

1:06:52 possible, one being manslaughter and the other being 1st to go

1:06:56 murder. Yeah.

1:06:58 Which ultimately the jury came back.

1:07:01 It was conclusive that unanimous, unanimous sorry that

1:07:05 it was first degree murder and therefore both the boys received

1:07:08 two life sentences. Yeah, without the possibility of

1:07:12 parole, Without parole. Whereas if they had gotten

1:07:15 manslaughter, there would have been at least a parole point put

1:07:18 in there. I think the maximum sentence for

1:07:21 manslaughter at the time was 30 years, right?

1:07:23 Because they could have caught two lots of that, but still with

1:07:26 a parole period, I'm guessing. Yeah, which means that there was

1:07:29 a chance they could have got out at some point in their

1:07:30 lifetimes, whereas now they won't.

1:07:33 And also the death sentence was also as opposed a possibility

1:07:36 that had to be decided upon after the fact.

1:07:38 Yeah. So that with the first degree

1:07:40 man, first degree murder being the conviction, I.

1:07:46 What do you reckon on manslaughter con versus?

1:07:50 Well, it's, it's really interesting because in my mind,

1:07:53 manslaughter to me is where there's no premeditation, no

1:07:58 planning. You've just killed somebody in

1:08:01 the heat of the moment or reacting to something or

1:08:03 defending yourself in a, in a, you know, whatever.

1:08:06 But, and so from just thinking about it purely from that

1:08:10 perspective, the boys 100%, the men 100% premeditated this.

1:08:16 They purchased guns. They then after the fact,

1:08:19 they've gone, they've disposed of the weapons, they've had a

1:08:23 shower, they've disposed of their clothes, they've come up

1:08:25 with a story. They've LED the police on this

1:08:28 wild goose chase to find these mobsters who didn't.

1:08:31 Well, I'm sure they exist, but yeah, but who had no involvement

1:08:35 in the crime. So at that level, I see it.

1:08:39 I see the fact that yes, absolutely the jury had to

1:08:42 convict them of first degree murder, but and and also taking

1:08:46 into account that this particular jury weren't allowed

1:08:50 to take into account any of the abuse allegations.

1:08:53 But knowing what we know, given the abuse, I just don't I I

1:09:00 don't think they should have been convicted of life in

1:09:04 prison. So I think.

1:09:07 But then also. But then also the other thing is

1:09:11 at no point is it OK to kill another human being.

1:09:15 You know, they've, they had, they might have had to have

1:09:19 started with nothing, with no money and started from the

1:09:22 bottom up and, and really forged a life for themselves.

1:09:27 But they could get away. They were adults, but then they

1:09:31 were also groomed from the time that they were children.

1:09:33 And they probably didn't have the capability, you know,

1:09:38 emotionally to be able to or even like mentally to be able to

1:09:46 plan that and get and forge that path for themselves.

1:09:51 So I really don't. Know I think that's I'm the same

1:09:54 in some sense. I I do feel like they got what

1:09:56 they deserved with a with a first degree noted conviction.

1:10:01 I I have all empathy for the abuse that they they had, but

1:10:06 ultimately there are other options.

1:10:09 No, they're not easy routes to take, but I think that there

1:10:14 were options prior to before killing their parents.

1:10:16 I really do think that they weren't complete and utter

1:10:19 idiots. They did have access to family

1:10:24 who clearly knew what was going on.

1:10:27 They still, their families still stand by them to this day.

1:10:30 So yeah, their aunties and uncles, like the brothers and

1:10:33 sisters of Jose and Kitty, stand by them to this day.

1:10:36 Yeah, I think that they would have if they had just stepped

1:10:39 away from like 5 minutes and thought to themselves, hey, if

1:10:44 Dad does go ape, we'll be at, you know, Auntie so and So's

1:10:49 house or, you know, Uncle so and So's house to protect us.

1:10:52 We'll contact the police. You know, we'll add this to the

1:10:55 world and that'll be done, you know, kind of.

1:10:57 Thing that would never have happened though.

1:11:00 You don't reckon? No.

1:11:02 What if I don't happened? Well, I just don't think, I

1:11:06 think they were. They were groomed to the point

1:11:08 where they they just knew they couldn't put that out there.

1:11:13 Yeah, but I mean, they could've just walked around for you

1:11:15 though, as in like instead taking money that's.

1:11:19 That's absolutely what they should have done.

1:11:21 Yeah, they didn't. They didn't.

1:11:24 Yeah. And so I, I, I agree that they

1:11:26 ended up where they needed to be.

1:11:28 And they, they even say that in that interview with Barbara

1:11:30 Walters, they, they fully accept that what they did was the wrong

1:11:33 thing. Yeah, they wish they hadn't done

1:11:36 it. And they understand why they are

1:11:38 where they are. Yeah, I mean the other, I know

1:11:40 the other outcome of this, and Eric has certainly admitted to

1:11:43 this, that if he didn't kill the kill his parents, he would have

1:11:46 killed himself, which is just horrendous to think.

1:11:50 I think he'd even said in that interview that he wishes he had.

1:11:53 He wanted to trade, wishes he'd trade places with them.

1:11:57 And I get that that's not an outcome.

1:11:59 That's not the right outcome either.

1:12:01 No one wants anyone dead out of this.

1:12:03 But I don't know how you then say that that's OK to

1:12:08 premeditate and murder them, murder your parents for what

1:12:11 they did, and then say that that's only manslaughter like

1:12:15 that. To me, it breaks the rule of

1:12:17 what manslaughter and what the difference between and 1st

1:12:20 degree murder are. Yeah.

1:12:21 Because I know there's a big wave at the moment.

1:12:23 It's just dog generation wanting to try and get the matter of

1:12:26 jail based on some new evidence that's come forward.

1:12:30 But I just don't know if there's enough in it that would change.

1:12:34 Yeah. So the outcome the.

1:12:36 Evidence. The evidence that's come to

1:12:38 light is that back when Jose was a record executive with RCA

1:12:46 Records, they had a band on their books called Menudo.

1:12:51 They were a Were they a Puerto Rican band?

1:12:53 Yeah. I don't remember.

1:12:54 You left. One of the band members, Roy

1:12:57 Rosello, has come out to say that during their time there

1:13:04 that Jose raped him. Yeah, he also claims so.

1:13:08 Roy also claims that there was, I think it was their band

1:13:12 manager was also like raping him consistently throughout that

1:13:16 period as well. Yeah, he's only like 14 I think.

1:13:19 He was 14. He was 14.

1:13:22 And so look, we know there's a lot of research that's been done

1:13:26 about disclosure of sexual abuse, especially in men.

1:13:30 And I think I've read somewhere that the average reporting time

1:13:34 is something like 30 years. So the fact that this is coming

1:13:38 out now doesn't surprise me, you know, And the fact that it

1:13:40 didn't come Outback then doesn't surprise me.

1:13:43 And we talked about that. It was the shame of it that Eric

1:13:46 didn't even confess to, you know, his therapist who he'd

1:13:52 compete confessed murder to. He hadn't confessed his sexual

1:13:55 abuse. You know, there's, there's a lot

1:13:58 of evidence to support why this Roy hasn't come forward, you

1:14:02 know, before now. I get that.

1:14:04 That would then pretend. Well, see, I don't know whether

1:14:07 that's enough to then have a retrial to say the sexual abuse

1:14:11 needs to come into it. Have a have a retrial.

1:14:14 Unfortunately, Roy's Roy's probably never going to get the

1:14:16 justice he deserves because, you know, he's already dead.

1:14:20 Which, yeah, that shit. But I think that unfortunately

1:14:23 this one, the ship has sailed on that.

1:14:26 Unfortunately, I don't think that's enough.

1:14:29 To I think the hope is yeah, I look, I think the.

1:14:32 What they're hoping is that that would potentially render the

1:14:39 sexual abuse of Lyle and Eric admissible if this Roy was happy

1:14:45 to testify, you know, on their behalf.

1:14:48 It look from everything I've been reading about it, it

1:14:51 doesn't look likely they're going to get a retrial anytime

1:14:53 that's. Cool.

1:14:54 He already heard all the evidence of it in the first

1:14:57 trial. He made a decision for whatever

1:15:00 reason he didn't want that in the second trial.

1:15:03 Yeah, I mean, I do agree or disagree with that decision now

1:15:07 or back then is the same. It's the same to be it.

1:15:11 Yeah. I don't see him going all of a

1:15:13 sudden, you know, a judge chewed around and saying, you know,

1:15:17 there'll be there'll be lengthy notes as to why that judge made

1:15:20 that decision. And so I can't see another judge

1:15:23 stepping in now and saying, you know, this random other person

1:15:28 who was abused by which again, you'd have to prove it, which I

1:15:31 mean, I hate that fact of like, I believe the victim, but there

1:15:34 will need to be evidence of that occurring for it to then be

1:15:38 valid to come into the trial. And not only that, there's got

1:15:43 to be a link there of a bit more I think of.

1:15:46 Well, there is there is one other piece of evidence that's

1:15:49 come to light that may may speak to that, and that is a letter

1:15:54 that Lyle wrote to his cousin back when he was like eight or

1:16:00 nine years of age, I think. And in that letter he discloses

1:16:04 the abuse. I.

1:16:06 Think so. More water in it.

1:16:08 Yeah, unfortunately, like it's got an only attachment to this

1:16:11 story. Yeah, and only recently has the

1:16:14 cousin found this letter, which is why it's sort of going

1:16:17 around. And and that's sort of that

1:16:20 combined with this, you know, this confession by or this

1:16:23 revelation by Roy Rosello. Yeah, those two things together,

1:16:29 you know, the family, I find this really interesting, that

1:16:31 the family. So Kitty's sister, who's a

1:16:35 sister and brother, I believe, all think the boys have done

1:16:39 enough. The boys, they're men.

1:16:40 The men, the Menendez brothers have done enough time.

1:16:44 Yeah, and they should be let out.

1:16:46 Well, I mean, they're now 56 and 53.

1:16:49 Look, I mean, are they going to offend again?

1:16:52 I don't think so. You know, I don't, I think they,

1:16:55 they certainly only they killed the people that they felt

1:16:59 threatened by. I don't feel they're a threat to

1:17:02 general society at the same time you're playing with fire and our

1:17:06 justice order, our justice system.

1:17:07 But it's American justice, justice system by changing

1:17:10 backflipping on these rulings without, Yeah, solid razor.

1:17:16 Yeah, look, I think you're right.

1:17:18 Although look, the the the brothers have made something of

1:17:23 the set themselves a little bit in prison too.

1:17:26 They've both got degrees, they've both got marrying you at

1:17:30 that point. But I just find, I know, I just

1:17:33 find it so friggin bizarre. Who would be like, Oh yeah, I'll

1:17:35 marry an inmate. There's no physical intimacy in

1:17:39 those relationships. But you and I are like, we're

1:17:42 two current addicts, right? But there is no way.

1:17:46 And there is nothing in me that makes me go.

1:17:48 I might write a letter to an inmate, you know, and then fall

1:17:51 in tracks. No, I can't come at that.

1:17:55 I don't know that that is there's a real phenomenon behind

1:17:58 all of that. I just don't get it because I

1:18:02 ended up marrying Anna Erickson. I think it was her name.

1:18:06 Yeah. Not long after them being

1:18:11 convicted and then that. But that ended pretty soon.

1:18:14 And then we ended up marrying another woman by the name of

1:18:17 Tammy. Well, she's Tammy Menendez in

1:18:20 1999. They're still married.

1:18:24 That's Eric, Eric, Eric, Tammy, Eric, and then Lyle's the one

1:18:28 who's had two marriages. Lyle married Anna Ericsson.

1:18:31 Eric married. I've got the wrong way around.

1:18:33 And then Lyle married Rebecca Sneed in 2003 and Rebecca's

1:18:38 actually got a daughter and she takes her daughter to visit him

1:18:40 in prison every week. But it's obviously not Lyle's.

1:18:45 No, it's not. They haven't been able to like,

1:18:47 you know, so she would feel revealed if he had.

1:18:50 My drift. OK.

1:18:51 Yeah, she had a child previously to, I mean this relationship.

1:18:55 She's going to be like, well in F what, 20?

1:18:57 Well into her 20s or her 30s now.

1:18:59 Hey, crazy because they married her, right?

1:19:03 1003? Her and Lyle, 2003.

1:19:05 Yeah, yeah. I just don't get that.

1:19:08 But anyway, each their own. A few just last little things to

1:19:12 sort of tidy, tidy it up a bit. Yeah.

1:19:17 The house that they lived in in Beverly Hills, where the parents

1:19:23 were murdered, was previously owned by Elton John Prince and

1:19:29 Michael Jackson. Yes, yeah.

1:19:32 Like what? So that gives you an idea of the

1:19:33 caliber of this actually. Their house, I believe they were

1:19:38 potentially renting that place because they were renovating

1:19:41 their place in Calabasas I. Thought they sold the place in

1:19:44 Calabasas because that's where the boys perpetrated that crime

1:19:47 against all their friends. No.

1:19:48 And they're like, oh, we've got to get the shit out of here

1:19:50 because nobody would want us in Calabasas.

1:19:53 Any Yeah, no, they were having like full renters done of their

1:19:55 like because that's the the place in Beverly Hills were

1:19:57 actually quite small. That's where they like were shot

1:20:00 in that den. It was quite a small little

1:20:02 room. Whereas in their Calabasas home

1:20:04 it was huge, grand. Yeah, yeah.

1:20:08 Oh, no, yeah. Interesting.

1:20:11 And in terms of the rest of the money of the of the family, like

1:20:14 we spoke about the fact that they couldn't find a lot of it

1:20:18 or a lot of what was suspected to have been there.

1:20:20 But the rest of the money that was leftover just went to the

1:20:24 lawyers like there's, there's actually nothing left now.

1:20:26 No, maybe. Well, there isn't.

1:20:29 Leave it with me. We've got any tips on which

1:20:33 country it might be in First, I can't start with you.

1:20:36 Not not that I've been able to find, but having said that, I

1:20:38 haven't gone deep, deep into it because, you know, time and kids

1:20:42 and you know, life, but and get into that for us and we'll put

1:20:47 back yes, but I have a little tidbit for you before we go too.

1:20:50 Oh yes, so. In their, in their spending

1:20:53 spree between having just murdered their parents and

1:20:57 before they were, they were arrested, the boys were living

1:21:00 it up and they went to quite a few basketball games.

1:21:04 And in particular one basketball game they were at was with the

1:21:08 New York Knicks and they got courtside tickets to this game

1:21:13 and they have been immortalised on a game player's trading card.

1:21:18 So in the background of a Mark Jackson trading card for

1:21:21 basketball for the New York Knicks, you will see Sydney

1:21:24 courtside Lyle and Eric Menendez.

1:21:27 That is gold. We will put a picture of it.

1:21:30 On our socials for you everyone, it's it is.

1:21:32 Absolutely amazing. But The thing is, eBay have got

1:21:36 so annoyed with this 'cause this card goes for a Pretty Little

1:21:38 penny these days, but eBay don't like this card and they to post

1:21:43 it on eBay for it to get sold without eBay taking it down, you

1:21:46 have to post it with like remove, they remove the image of

1:21:50 Eric and and Lyle and they don't mention them at all within the

1:21:54 post. But so you've got to just know

1:21:55 what card of is you're after gotta get it.

1:21:58 But I think it's it goes for about $1500.

1:22:00 This card, it's amazing. You're on mute.

1:22:03 Sorry. I had to cough.

1:22:05 I'm really sorry. Did.

1:22:06 They have to sell it because it's like a proceeds.

1:22:09 Sorry, did does eBay not let them sell it because it's like a

1:22:11 proceeds of crime thing? Why?

1:22:13 The reasoning behind that is that eBay apparently in 20. 18

1:22:18 just started going now you're not selling that on here and

1:22:21 started removing it. Interesting.

1:22:23 Well, we'll definitely pop a photo of that up on us.

1:22:26 Our socials because that is awesome.

1:22:27 I mean, Can you imagine being the person not looking at this

1:22:29 trading kind of going, wait a. Minute.

1:22:31 I know those two phases because they were everywhere, weren't

1:22:34 they? Like they were on TV?

1:22:35 That the. Whole trial, the whole first

1:22:37 trial, the second trial wasn't broadcast at all, but the whole

1:22:39 first trial was, yeah. All these, I mean, they're faces

1:22:41 that, you know, these faces, yeah.

1:22:44 I mean, they look quite, you know, and you look at photos of

1:22:47 them now and you're like, hold on, wait.

1:22:49 Which one's which a little bit. You actually see the similarity

1:22:51 now between them I think even. Now, like because Lyle's bald,

1:22:55 but even then I'm like, hence this spitting image like the two

1:22:58 of them, they're such brothers. They really do look very

1:23:00 similar. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:23:04 But people were like women in. Particular they were.

1:23:06 Outside the courtroom and stuff, they were like swooning after

1:23:09 these two. Yeah, I don't really.

1:23:11 I don't get it. I don't get it either.

1:23:14 I'm sure they were both guys far more healthy.

1:23:16 OK. The fact that you bring up your

1:23:19 crush on Daryl Braithwaite all the time.

1:23:21 Is probably less than healthy. I won't.

1:23:24 I won't get into who I had a crush on in 1989.

1:23:28 Probably hold. On 1989.

1:23:29 So I would have been four. It's probably John from play

1:23:32 School. Oh, that's creepy, actually.

1:23:34 Oh. He was lovely, yeah.

1:23:38 Figure I'm not at. Well, so strong.

1:23:39 Braithwaite. Hello General Braithwaite, mate.

1:23:42 Oh my God. I mean, songs, come on.

1:23:45 What's that? Yeah, true.

1:23:47 John. There's bear in there.

1:23:52 It's a little bit different. Well, I think that's probably a

1:23:55 good place for us to work. And leave off because crazies

1:23:59 are sitting in it's. Like, but thank you everybody

1:24:03 for joining us. If you could please, you know,

1:24:06 subscribe to our podcast on whatever app you're listening to

1:24:10 this on. It really, really helps us get

1:24:14 more listeners and the more listeners we get, the more

1:24:18 episodes we can bring you. And we've got a few things, a

1:24:20 few really exciting things in the works.

1:24:22 So stay tuned for, you know, updates as we go along.

1:24:27 We will be back next week with a new episode.

1:24:31 So thank you everybody. Do you still have a real quick

1:24:33 shout out? Oh yes, I.

1:24:36 Forgot the shout out, sorry everybody.

1:24:39 No, we had, we've had some really great comments on.

1:24:42 Posts recently, particularly around our second episode Jean

1:24:46 Benet mad on YouTube and also Spotify.

1:24:50 I think this comment particularly came from that we

1:24:52 just had some really, you know, people really responding to us,

1:24:55 which is so amazing. And it's not even my mum.

1:24:58 It's like someone we don't know my mum well.

1:25:02 I firstly. I don't think Pat had actually

1:25:04 know how to respond on Spotify. Love you, Pat, love you.

1:25:08 But you know, especially when she was like, I just see your

1:25:11 fences. I don't get to hear.

1:25:12 It mum, that's 'cause your volume's not up and she's

1:25:16 gorgeous. So yeah, no, this one's not

1:25:18 from. Patty, it's actually from Moon.

1:25:19 Dogs a AU so thank you very much Moon Dogs and the comment is

1:25:25 another great episode. I was listening in bed and went

1:25:27 to reply out loud as I felt like I could just join in.

1:25:30 Can't wait for the next for next week's episode, ladies.

1:25:33 So thank you, Moo Dogs. That is brilliant.

1:25:35 Please just chime in. Please do add your comments.

1:25:37 We want the conversation continuing after episodes.

1:25:40 So we really appreciate it. Absolutely.

1:25:42 Yeah, we love it. And thank you everybody for

1:25:44 listening and. We'll see you next week for the

1:25:46 next one. See you everyone.

1:25:48 Bye. Stay curious, Crime.

1:25:50 Besties.