Episode 9 - The Menendez Brothers

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties. Welcome back. I'm Meg. And I'm Emma and it is lovely to have everybody back for another week. We're very excited to bring today's case to you it. Is and it's another weird one with it being a Saturday night like last time when I recorded on Monday night in our crazy busy lives. So just to make it extra. Strange tonight. That's it, that's it. But we have had a a very nice weekend, haven't we? Yeah, and I sound like this, like in like, I sound nasally and you know, I'm over, but I'm not hungover.

0:49 OK, I've got a call. I promise it's not leftover from the weekend. We did have a very nice mums night out with a few friends from our kids school. So that was that was really nice. It was. So good to get out like that and just have a great night. It was really fun. It was. It was. Sales are flowing. That's it. And you, you actually had two nights out in a row this weekend, May. I didn't, yeah. Trying to do the right thing by work colleagues and then, you know, friend stuff to do back it up. No, I did think I did well.

1:23 I think I did well to back it up, but not that. I mean, if we couldn't pro out that we used to. So it makes it much easier to, you know, to pull pull two in a row. Yeah, that's it. It was a, it was a topic of conversation on Saturday night with everyone about, you know, the glory days and how it used to be. And there is absolutely no way we could get back there now. Like to go out two nights in a row and have like a couple of really big nights, get up and go to uni the next day or go to work. I was thinking about that the other night when we're talking about it and I was, I was crazy.

1:56 I don't know how I did that because I was like going out like five nights a week, a good five nights a week. If not for, you know, and yeah, going uni, which certainly wasn't the hardest thing in the world. I mean, most of that time was probably spent at the pub as well, let's be really honest. And yeah, then. But going to work, I mean, my Sunday mornings at work, I don't know how anyone could have let me in that place.

2:20 Those were the days, Yes, I. Can't imagine kids today during what we used to do. I mean, they didn't seem to. I don't think they could afford to do what we used to do, sorry. True. We were talking about that like 2 on yeah, Saturday night. That kind of cocktail these days we'll say like standard, like drink like a vodka Raspberry that you'd get out on a night out was like $5.50. I mean, God, what's that now? They'd be going to be over $10 I'm guessing. For sure. Like I had a couple of cocktails on Saturday night that were over 20 bucks, I think so, yeah.

2:48 You can't, yeah. Yeah, it's not. I'm sure. No, I mean even a glass of wine these days out is not not cheap. No, but anyway, at least good times were had and you know, it's nice to have those, those nights out when the kids aren't around. It is, it is. I mean we managed to get home safely. Those bloody Uber drivers sometimes would be quite dodgy but not too bad. A night without Uber driver on Sunday night, he seemed pretty good. Didn't say a word, of course, but you know, it drove fun. But my Friday night Uber, God, it's in the cab with a girlfriend driving and coming home and like, we're both like hanging on for dear life in the backseat.

3:29 Been flying around everywhere. And like he kept like putting his foot on the brake. We'd be like full flying forward and then full flying back in our seats. And you can't say anything. We were both sort of eyeballing each other going what's it on? In here we do yeah yeah, like my mate can you maybe not fling us around the. Oh God, you play. You should go out of the cab out of out of the Uber and her place and I that you got like a little 5 minutes down the road sort of thing and she just says me just let me know if you get home safe.

3:58 Please let me. Know if you get? Yeah, yeah, we've all had those Uber drivers.

4:10 Really nice. But nice people. But why become an Uber driver if driving isn't your thing? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know what that what the go is with that, you know, you know, they they just seem to be generally not good drivers. Like, yeah, it's just that they're doing it so a lot, so much that they get you like, I don't know, like overconfident or I know. Or yeah, I just don't care anymore. I don't know. I think it was the dude on the Friday night too. He was on the phone the whole time, which he turned to us and said to us, do you mind if I'm on the phone?

4:38 Like I'm like, I don't know, like you do your thing, we'll chat, you know, and he had his little earbud thing in and chatting away the whole time just fine, but I don't know that he was concentrating that much. What to? Say, there you go. He was more interested in what he was, who he was talking to than actually driving properly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Fun times. Fun times, yes? Should we get into today's case? Yes, this one is green. Yeah, yeah. What are we talking about today? Well, today we are going to be chatting about the Menendez brothers, which is a fascinating case.

5:12 It was back in the late 80s that this took took place in 1989, but then obviously bled well into the 90s with in terms of the trial and everything that went on after afterwards. And it was it was one of those cases became quite infamous in terms of like a bit like the OJ case. It was very similar time to the OJ case, highly televised in the trial, that sort of thing. Yeah, so. Just for the day. Oh. Sorry, sorry, just to interject quickly there. This was actually the first trial that was televised from start to end on USTV.

5:42 So yeah, this kind of set the precedent for then that, you know, and, and it was very well watched by a lot of people. Yeah. And it really set the scene for OJ's trial, which came not that long after, not that long after the Menendez brothers trial. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, we were talking the other day about how like, because it was so highly televised, like everyone knew about this case. It was like parodied in so many different ways and many movies that we then saw, like, you know, the cable guy, you know, Ben Stiller in in the background quite often on ATV, it would be Ben Stiller, say, like both the brothers.

6:18 I think he played both characters. He did hilarious. Yeah. And they were the 30 Rock. Did you ever watch 30 Rock? I loved 30 Rock. One of my favourite. Yeah, Tracy Morgan in that in one of the episodes he was convinced that his children are going to kill him for his for their inheritance. And so you got coined the term that you know there was going to be menandized.

6:42 I love it, it's so good. Thinking of favorite TV shows. I actually have a bit of a link to this case with a favorite TV show of mine too. Oh yeah, the bow. The bow is long. This because this story was so well, you know, known and liked and was so popularized in the media or an order actually made a mini series about the show and I'm sure you've watched it in, you know, to prepare for today or, you know, even in the past just for pure and utter entertainment. Loved it. Edie Falco playing is the lawyer, so the Menendez brothers lawyer in this Law and Order miniseries about the case.

7:26 Yes. And she plays Carmella in one of, or in fact in my favorite TV show of all time, which is The Sopranos. So yeah, there you go. It was awesome in that. Series. So I think you're nominated for like an Emmy or something for it, I believe, yeah. I can't remember if it was Golden Glover, an Emmy, whatever, but. I think it was an Emmy. Yeah, yeah, she's such a good job. They look so much alike. The real deal and her looks so much. I know, I know, she and even her manner reasons, she's just, she's awesome.

7:53 I love her. Yeah, no, she's. Pretty. I love her attitude, I love her accent, I love the way she talks. So yeah, shout out to to that miniseries. And if anyone wants to sort of see a dramatization of of events and it's actually pretty, pretty factual. I mean, there's obviously a bit of creative license in there, but actually as far as these recreations of real life events go, it's actually pretty accurate. Yeah, yeah. For sure. Cool. Yes. I mean, having said all that, you know that having laughs and what have you, this case was pretty horrific.

8:30 I mean, who? It's not too many cases, I don't think, where children have murdered their own parents and and not only just murdered a parent, but murdered both parents. I reckon they'd be fair. I've only a fair few of those across the world. I would, I would suspect. Sorry. Yeah. Let's get into it. Yeah, I mean, there's there is a term for it and it's called patricide. So that's yeah, a term for killing your parents. So that's obviously you know, enough that that it does have its own our name. But yeah, these two brothers, as we've alluded to, killed both of their parents.

9:08 So let's have a a chat about the main players in the game. Let's. Do that they are. They are an interesting family in that Jose. So the parents are named Jose Menendez and Mary Louise Menendez. Mary Louise goes by the name of Kitty and her maiden name was Anderson. They were married in 1963 and in 1968 they had their eldest son, Joseph Lyle Menendez, who goes by the name of Lyle. So we'll be referring to him for the rest of this is as Lyle and then they had Eric Galen Menendez in 1970. So the the brothers are only a couple of years apart in age and by all accounts, they were incredibly close.

9:54 The two brothers, they had a more than just a, a typical brotherly bond. I think they were, they were very, very close to one another. And, and as the case, as we sort of talk more and more about the case, I think that becomes pretty evident as to why, why that's the case. So Jose and Kitty, as I said, were married in 1963. They actually met at at university at Southern Illinois College where they were both attending at the time. Jose was a very talented athlete and scholar and academic. He emigrated from Cuba in 1944 to the United States with his family.

10:41 I believe his family were quite wealthy and they were an incredibly academic family in and of themselves. Very sporty. It sounds like they just had, you know, the whole package. Really. Yeah, very high expectations, I think in general in the family, which then I think led to Jose's, you know, demeanour and and how he wanted to raise his own voice for sure. Yeah, that the Menendez brothers definitely, definitely had high expectations set on them from a very young age to sort of achieve what? What I guess achieve highly in every in every?

11:19 Endeavor. Yeah. Academic and athletic and socially and you know, all of all of everything that goes with it. I guess, yeah, Jose was a little bit, well, he was I guess in, in certain ways he had the privilege of coming from a family with some money, but he then created and forged his own path and became quite, you know, his, his career. He forged an amazing career for himself and ended up, you know, in these multi $1,000,000 jobs. And I guess at the time of his death, he was the CEO of Live Entertainment.

11:57 Previous to that, he'd been an accountant for several like large organizations. He'd worked for Hertz as his chief financial officer. And actually, this is a little tidbit of information that I came across when I was doing my research. So where they lived in Beverly Hills, the Menendez family, they were, they actually lived really close to OJ Simpson. So this is one of those full circle moments. Go back and have a listen to our OJ Two Parts 2 parter if you haven't already, because it was great if we don't say so ourselves.

12:30 And that's a really fascinating story, too. Yeah. But so Jose, as the CFO of Hertz was, he was the one who employed OJ to do the TV commercial that we talked about. Yeah, there was. A real groundbreaker in that because previous to that, celebrities weren't used for endorsements like that. That was his idea. Like to not only like to. Yeah, He was his idea to go, let's go out and get a celebrity to do this. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny because, yeah, first time for that. And then, you know, as we were saying, the Menendez brothers ended up in a cell next door to OJ many moons later.

13:17 And they're like, hey, I remember you. You used to come around to our house with barbecues and whatnot. That's. Someone, someone. It's crazy.

13:33 I guess these people are the one percenters, as in, in so many, in so many ways. One, you know, they've killed people. They're murderers. And amongst the. Wealthiest people, you know, in in the country anyway, Kitty was homemaker by and large. I think when Kitty married Jose, there was a little bit of an expectation on his part that Kitty would play that role. And I think, you know, from all accounts, she was, she was happy to do that in that she never really had a career or certainly not in the in the field that she studied at university.

14:12 I think she did a communications degree. People who knew her described her as a highly strung, really stressed person. She was on prescription antibiotics at the time of her death and I believe had been for a very long time. Is it? Antibiotics or antidepressants? Oh, did I say antibiotics? You. Said antibiotics, but you mean I? Yeah. I 100% mean antidepressants. Antibiotics are on my mind because literally everyone in this house. Yeah. Been sick Yeah sorry about that guys, you know just. Want to clarify.

14:51 Antibiotics fine. I mean as as are antidepressants, but I meant antidepressants. Unfortunately, the murder happened in 1989, in August of 1989, and in 1987. So a couple of years prior he actually attempted suicide by overdosing on pills. Jose, it was not what I would call the most attentive or perfect husband. He was basically cheating on her from the moment they got together, certainly throughout their entire, the entirety of their marriage. And she just kind of, I mean, she knew about it, didn't really do much about it.

15:35 Jose used his wealth and power to dictate the lives of certainly of Kitty and the brothers and his sons, but also of members of his extended family. For sure, yeah. I mean he helped out family members financially though in that. So I think that, you know, he held it in that over them. And if like, well, if you want, if you want me to help you, you don't mention things that go on within my household, which I think he was. You know, it was like this unspoken thing of like, well, I can't speak up because the guy's helping me out financially.

16:11 How am I supposed to say, hey, don't treat your wife like that, but can I take that hand out? Yeah. Well, I think it was. It was pretty well known that it was just, we knew they all, everyone knew what was going on. But you just don't talk about it. Yeah. So I think it's probably worth popping a bit of a disclaimer in here too, that things that we're about to talk about are quite explicit in nature. It's talking about crimes against children and abuse against children and against, like, older, older adults or young adults, I suppose.

16:47 Yeah. So, you know, if this makes you feel uncomfortable, we completely understand. And it might not be the episode for you, but I guess from a very young age, Jose was actually perpetrating sexual crimes against Jose against sorry, Lyle and Eric. And they neither of them knew about the other for a very, very, very long time it. Was fairly well known amongst family members and friends. It was obvious in that there was physical abuse and most definitely emotional abuse going on within the family.

17:29 And again, one of those things that just everyone didn't talk about, but it was certainly well known. But then what was also then going on behind closed doors, what the boys claimed then in the trial, etcetera, is that there was sexual abuse occurring. Yeah, there was. There was it stopped for him at the age of eight and it so as, as you said, the boys didn't know. They were very much groomed and told by their father not to tell anyone about what was going on. And so the boys didn't talk about what was happening to each of them.

18:02 And so though I guess a Lyle hadn't was under the impression and it stopped for him at 8 and what what didn't happen to Eric. But that is basically the catalyst then of what was to come with this case that five days prior to murdering their parents, Eric had confessed to Lyle that his dad had that Jose had been sexually abusing him and still was up and like right up until then had been sexually abusing him. So Lyle being the older brother and incredibly protective, which you don't, I don't can't blame him for that, decided that he would, you know, he would approach his father to get this to stop, which didn't go down well, as you can imagine.

18:46 I mean, there's so from what, from his account of this, his dad basically said, you know, you if you breathe a word of this to anyone, he'll be cut off from me financially and then also stem two threats of, of his life being taken as well and Eric's. So for both of them. So apparently over the course of those five days prior to the murder, there was numerous occasions where things blew up in the household verbally around the disclosure of this information between Eric and Lyle. So his dad was very much on high alert that this information was being potentially going to be put out publicly.

19:25 And that was a big deal for Jose. He appearances were everything. Yeah. They they orchestrated. It's sort of like, you know, that Instagram worthy life that we see now so often where, you know, you look at somebody's life on Instagram and it looks perfect and idyllic and amazing. And the photos are posed and everyone looks lovely and the children are nicely dressed, but you don't know what's going on behind that picture. And it was a very similar facade that the Menendez family were putting out into society.

19:54 They, the boys, appeared to be these amazing, upstanding young men who were wonderful at sport and academically gifted. We now know, though, that. Their parents were actually doing their homework for them because they couldn't do it themselves. They, I mean, they weren't, I don't think they were necessarily, you know, complete and uttered dead shits or anything, but they. Eric was a more intelligent academically, Lyle wasn't. That I don't think he was a worried Stella, no. And that what no means no, but like, I mean, because Lyle was but he he got kicked out of the universe.

20:38 Not kicked out, but his grades weren't up to standard for Princeton. That was Lyle. Yeah, yeah, that was Lyle. Yeah. So, you know, Daddy had to fork out a bit of money to make sure he stayed on the books at the. He actually plagiarized. So in the first six months of his of him attending Princeton, well, first of all, it took him a long time to get accepted into Princeton. God only knows how that even happened. Like did daddy pay some money? And like, you know that page entry scandal in the. University.

21:13 So that he got in, yeah. Well, he did. That's known, is it? Yeah. Yeah, right. And then so within his first six months, though, of attending Princeton, Lyle was caught plagiarizing a, you know, an assignment or something. And to get him out of that, or so that that would stay quiet, Jose paid the University $50,000. Oh. Then maybe, maybe he got in legit but then couldn't, didn't stay there legit. I don't. Know getting legit. I couldn't find anything to say otherwise but my. Tennis scholarship to get in, I don't know if he got in on academics, but he had to maintain academics to keep the spot and that was where that was dropped off.

21:52 And so therefore it was yeah, that Jose stepped in and, and and gave the university a bit of money. But I don't know. I don't know, 50 grand in the back in that day was maybe a lot of money to one of those. Universities, yeah. So I think, I think 50 grand, I did look this up. I think $50,000 back at that time would be roughly like between 200 and $250,000 in today's money. Yeah. So it's still a decent chunk of money. Yeah. I mean, we know Jose was worth somewhere around like the 14 to $16,000,000 mark back in the day.

22:25 So that would have been, you know, 2 1/2 times that roughly what you get for today's money. So he was incredibly wealthy. It's probably worth noting at this point where we're talking about money that when the time came to distribute his estate after his death, he didn't have a lot of liquid assets. So there wasn't a lot of cash in the bank. I mean, there was, when I say not a lot, I think it it, it's sort of all amounted to the tune of about $2,000,000, right? They actually do not know to this day where the rest of his money is.

22:59 So it's suspected that it's in offshore accounts here, there and everywhere. Nobody knows how to access it where it is. It's just sitting somewhere. It's. Very well hidden and that's just gotten, you know, well, I well, if they are, if they know, they're not saying and they're calling. I wouldn't either flawed at that. Like you know what, you've got to have some sort of exit plan on that sort of money, surely like how do you get that money out then if you off the top, you know, like he didn't know his kids were going to murder him.

23:27 What if he just had a car accident the next day? He. Probably didn't care. He probably didn't care. Yeah, true. Well, there's a lot of money just to sit somewhere though, isn't it? Like not have anything. OK, I'm on this. I need to find out how I can get this money. OK. Then we can retire and just podcast full time. Oh, I'm here for it. I'm entirely hyper. Fixate that and find out what we're doing. Totally. And then we wouldn't have to record on a Monday night after work and after doing things all day.

23:55 Back to the case. We can dream, we can dream. So the boys exhibited behaviors, you know, throughout their life that I guess we now know in hindsight, which is a wonderful thing, you know, that it really did reflect what they'd been through and the experiences that they'd had. I'm mostly referring to Lyle exhibiting these symptoms, but Eric certainly had his own set of challenges as a 14 year old boy, Lyle was still playing with stuffed animals. He was still wetting the bed, which it's one of the factors of the McDonald triad.

24:37 I think we've discussed the McDonald triad before, or you and I certainly have privately if we haven't discussed it on the podcast yet, and it will come up. Time and time again, you and me. So yeah, let's discuss that. Yeah, Yeah. I guess the McDonald triad, which is also known as the sociopathy triad, counts for three factors that are linked to homicidal or sexually predator predatory behaviour. And they're generally demonstrated prior, generally when the person is a child into young adulthood, I suppose.

25:15 And the three factors are cruelty to animals, session with fire setting, and persistent wedding of the bed after the age of five. Yeah. So I'm not saying that we we'd have no evidence of the other two factors for Lyle aside from the bed wetting and whether there was more going on than this. We do know that he'd been assaulted by his father throughout his very, very young years. It's like the behaviors there are probably more indicative of the sexual abuse, which can then also lead to other violent behaviours that in that, you know, persistent wetting the bed, regression in play, those kind of things indicators that there is sexual assault.

26:09 Because the other one that is there is evidence of his that he was sexually appropriately sexual with people in that he there was like his cousin came from saying that at quite a young age. I think I'm similar around about 1314 sort of age group that he actually put moves sort of on her, which was very uncomfortable for her. So that sort of indicates as well that there's that sexual nature of the things. Yeah. The regression in his play and the the bed when he would indicate sexual abuse. Yeah. Yeah, the incident with his female cousin was interesting because he actually sort of made two moves.

26:46 They were wrestling, and he tried to take off her clothes, and she sort of screamed and he stopped. And then he tried to, like, kiss her, and she said no. And then, yeah, it just kind of never went from there. So it's like he tried it, she pulled back or she, you know, expressed the fact that she didn't want to do it and just like. Abnormal sort of play, like in the, I guess that rough and tumble play, what, what that was treated like by his father in that moment with, you know, what normal kids play like was then in his mind, it was natural for the next step to be clothed being removed.

27:30 So that's it's that real head fuck that his dad's done to him in that unfortunately that's coming through that's. Sad. It's. So, so sad. The boys really wanted to live up to Jose's expectations, and one of the things that he insisted on was that they were good at sport. And they both chose to pursue tennis as their sport of choice. And they'd practice all the time. Of course, they lived in, in an absolutely beautiful $4 million home in, in Beverly Hills, which had a tennis court that had private coaching.

28:06 And by all accounts, they were quite good tennis players. I I don't know that they were ever necessarily ranked or anything, but I know they definitely played internationally at least. It must have been on some kind of amateur circuit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I believe too, like once I'm set one stage, I think Lyle started losing his hair and his dad was really, really annoyed about this. And it was clearly obviously a bit of that the outsider, you know, what their perception of what his his son was. I don't know if that's like indicated some sort of weakness, you know, because he was losing his hair or he didn't fit the standard of like a like a what a young man should look like and all those sorts of things that he actually made sure that Laura toupee to cover up the fact that he was starting to lose his hair and.

28:57 Despite how close Eric and Lyle were, Eric didn't actually know that Lyle were toupee until after they'd murdered their parents. Wow, Yeah. I mean, that shows that shame, doesn't it? Ever those sort of things how their father obviously put that into their their brains. Oh. Yeah, horrible. Those poor kids. Those poor kids. I mean, there was still a fair, fair whack and nepotism in the family. So when Lyle was sort of suspended from Princeton for 12 months after his plagiarism blip, so dad paid the fine, but he also got a 12 month suspension.

29:35 During that time, Jose by this stage was already working at live entertainment and Lyle got to work there. I mean, you know, step into a role that, you know, your dad's sort of created for you, companies created. Or anything. Was he like he? Well, he wasn't really like working at the bottom, I don't think. No, I certainly don't think he started at the bottom, but he didn't really make a good name for himself. Yeah, he would just not show up for work sometimes or he'd get in late. His work ethic was terrible.

30:08 And I guess the boys had really had the men. The boys had had most of their most, most things handed to them on a civil platter. So there was this real dichotomy in in their life. They had a father who was abusing them sexually, emotionally, and then yet they also lived this incredibly privileged life financially, never wanted for anything. The day before the murders took place, they'd actually gone out on a boat on a family like shark. I think they were looking for sharks like a shark watching.

30:46 Yeah. Interestingly, the captain of that boat said that none of them spoke to one another. They all kind of sat in different popular. The boys, I think, stayed together. But Kitty was at one, you know, one end of the boat on her own, and Jose was at another. And there was a lot of tension there. So why they wanted to do things as a family if that was the state of affairs, I don't know. I mean, I guess keeping in mind that they just had four days before that had a conversation with the boys about the abuse or the boys had confronted Jose about the abuse, maybe there was still some residual, there would have been residual tension from that conversation there.

31:24 I know one of the things that I was really curious about actually was whether Kitty knew and what what she, what she knew what and what she did about the abuse. By all accounts, she knew. Yeah, and. As a mother, I just. Can't. How you couldn't know that and not do anything about it? I think it was the Barbara Walters interview with with the brothers which was after they'd been convicted they. Were in prison when they when she did that interview, weren't they? Yeah, it was actually filmed in prison and it was really interesting to see Eric actually speak about that fact that it was in those five days that it dawned on him that his mom knew and didn't step in.

32:10 Obviously he'd gone for like, I mean, Lyle had put up with it until he was eight. I'll hit Eric putting up to with it until he was 18. To think that his mother for those 18 years had never once stepped in and stopped this from happening and knew what was happening. And for that to register with him to go. She's known this whole time. He apparently then at that point went couldn't see the difference between his dad and his mother. They became one was the one in his mind that they were both equally the same perpetrator.

32:39 Yeah, I can fully understand that psychologically that you know Oh well and good that this that dad's the perpetrator of the physical sexual abuse. To have the person you're like who is supposed to be your most strongest protect, protector, not step up for you in that moment and stop it and know all about it. That's got really hit home that you're like and yeah, I don't know in a way what you're worth is to that person. Your family. Yeah, from what I heard, I think Eric was really, really close to his mom.

33:16 So yeah, that's that is just, I mean, it's a betrayal on so many levels. So the same cousin who Lyle sort of had made those inappropriate moves on, I guess she, Lyle actually disclosed to her his abuse a little bit later on. And at the time she went and went and found her Auntie Kitty and told her what Lyle had disclosed to her. And Kitty just brushed her off. And, and the cousin says now that she just assumed that because she'd told Kitty and then she'd heard nothing else about it, she'd never heard from the boys again from either of them about the abuse, that Kitty had done something about it.

34:08 And it was all over and done with, girls finished. And we just don't talk about it anymore. Yeah. Yeah. And then to find out as an adult, like she was a few years, I think older than the boys, to find out after they'd perpetrated these crimes. And then, you know, subsequently at the trial that the abuse persisted beyond her disclosure to Kitty. I mean, and that the guilt, it's hard. Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, should we get into the actual dying on the advent of the of the murders pretty full on.

34:49 So as we said, like this five day build up really to this is what the what brothers have put forward of these knowledge within the family. And so the boys were basically, I keep saying the boys I shouldn't because I heard that 18 and 21 at the time. So they weren't always, they were adults at this point, but still living in their parents home and obviously felt very controlled by their by their father, particularly in terms of I think because of the physical and emotional abuse and the sexual abuse.

35:17 But also financially, if you know, they were very much feeling that they had no way out. There was no way out of this. And so they had conspired that they would kill their dad and they felt that they had no other options. They were going to get killed if they didn't kill. So they went to buy guns. And which just blows my mind. America, please, with the guns, they went to go and buy them in the state they were in in Los Angeles. And it turned out that they had to wait to be able to get them there.

35:47 So they went to the next state over, I believe, and were able to buy these massive shotguns like, yeah, what they called. Did you have it there? What they? I wrote, I wrote it down. Look, I'm not a gun person so I had to actually Google what this gun looked like and what I mean what a shotgun actually looks like. Yeah, but they purchased 2 Mossberg 12 gauge shotguns. Yeah, they're massive. You have to like you like do a full, you know, pump thing to like, you know, and get the next one going. Yeah, pellet thing.

36:21 The bullets were, you know, a couple inches long. They're just some serious damage to you. But when they first bought them, they came with like these pallet things, but I guess that'd be like not not or some sort of blank like they they were called bird bird I think. They're like a rubber kind of pallet or something. Yeah, and like which wouldn't injure someone that much. So they had to then go and get different ammo that can get full blown kill your ammo stuff like I'm not a bit not a not a gun person.

36:48 I've got no idea of the but I know like a. Live round or something? I don't know what that sounds. Sounds right. Yeah. Something that for work. Yes. These giant shotguns, they went and purchased one each of those. So I mean, this all goes to premeditation for this murder. You know, it was a couple of days prior to them doing this. When it got to the day of, they had planned to go out for the evening to go and watch a movie and go to dinner. And I think there was a bit of a, a row between them and, and their parents.

37:20 And so at about, I think it was about 10:00 in the evening, Kitty and Jose had gone down to the den to watch TV and have some ice cream and blueberries. So they were just fairly regular evening. But Lyle and Eric decided this was the moment that they needed to get rid of them. And so they went and filled their shotguns with the ammunition. And the words of Black Eric in like and Lyle at the Barbara Walters interview was that they just walked in and started shooting. Because if they pause at any moment, they would have not gone through with it, which I find really interesting.

38:00 Me too. It's like they felt like they had no other choice, that they had to do this because they could not continue on otherwise. Yeah, so they began shooting straight away. They hit Jose 1st and he ended with a his life. I think they hit, they shot him five times with the the worst shot was at the back of the head, which left a gaping hole in the back of his his head that was large enough for a a man's hand to fit her fist to fit inside. Yeah. So it was close range shot to the back of the head.

38:36 That was what killed him. Yeah, apparently Kitty was absolutely beside herself and trying to was screaming, trying to get out of the way. The boys shot her, I believe, to begin with, it might have been six to eight shots. They got into her before they realized they ran out of ammunition. And she wasn't dead yet. So she. Crawled along the floor. They went out to their car again, refilled the shotguns with more ammunition and went back in and continued to shoot at Kitty. One of the actually. Yeah, the right.

39:12 Shot right to her cheek. To her cheek. They held the gun to her cheek and shot her to the point where she was unrecognizable from the the gunshots, and I think they ended up shooting her ten times in total. Yes. There was 10. Absolutely horrific. So the boys at this point sitting there with their dead parents in this horrific scene, their assumption was that the cops would somebody in the neighbourhood would hear this. I mean, the gunshots would have been very loud. They assumed that someone in the neighbourhood would hear that and the cops would arrive immediately.

39:53 You know, they'd be hearing sirens within minutes and that'd be that. And they'd be, I guess their expectation was that they would then be able to have the cops come in and then go. We had no other option. This is what happened. We shot our parents. You know, they weren't going to like fly at that point or just going to fess up to the fact that they had no other choice but to. It was a defense defensive thing. They killed their parents, but no cops arrived, so they didn't know what to do. And so they jumped in the shower, washed off.

40:23 They ended up. Getting in the car and driving, they dumped the shells from the ammunition over a Canyon. They dumped a bag of the clothes that they'd been wearing. They dumped the shotguns, I believe, as well. Yeah, got rid of those. And then wearing it, went out and bought ticket stubs to the movie that they were planning to go see. I believe they went to dinner and then close to midnight, they came home again. And at this point was when they rang the police, Yeah. And so you can go online and you can check out their 911 call to the police.

41:00 And it was made at about 11:50, I think it was. And look, we 100% know that they, you know, that they did this. They are not hiding that fact at this day. So we can feel free to judge this nine on one call, unlike usually where we say, oh, you can't judge people on a nine on one call, we'll judge. Yeah, because you never know how you're going to react if you're in the same situation. Well, yeah, we weren't. We know the outcome of this one. So Lyle makes the phone call and he is incoherent. He's beside himself.

41:31 Or seemingly. I mean, he would. You would be beside yourself, though, wouldn't you? Even if. I guess if I mean it's. Murdered your parents? You know, monster versus defensive, you know, like as in if you're the monster, it's it's fake. If you're not the monster and you genuinely felt like this was your only option in life, then yeah I guess it is real but and you would be the fudge self. Yeah, Eric, Eric sort of over acted. Well, he'd have the acting classes. I mean he should be able to do this far better.

42:04 Yeah, that's it. And he but he like he was banging his head against the pavement on the front, out the front and making a real scene. Just two things of note here that I just thought we should have a quick chat about before we move beyond it. For sure there were there were two things that the boys did that also speak to premeditation, or at least them thinking about how they were going to get themselves out of this. The first one was that they decided when they sort of realized, I think that, oh, my God, the police aren't coming.

42:34 We're going to have to come up with a different story and figure out what we're going to do. They actually ended up shooting both of their parents in the left kneecap because the story, yeah, the story that they decided they they'd come up with is that it was a mob hit. Given Jose's, I guess, ties to the entertainment industry and the people that he surrounded himself with, it was. Certainly not unreasonable. It wasn't. It wasn't unreasonable, and the cops believed it. Yeah, the cop, when they interviewed Lyle and Eric not long after, well, very soon after the murders, they said, who do you think might have done this to your parents?

43:15 And they both were like, maybe you should check out the mob. And the cops were like, oh, yeah, fair call. Like yeah, their left kneecaps were shocked. Yeah, totally. There was one story even where Lyle said, you know, I'll look. I've spoken to my uncle who's dealt, who's spoken to the person, and we're not in any danger. So it's OK. You don't have to like, protect us. The, you know, the children, the mob have said that we're safe, like, and they bought that. They totally bought that information.

43:38 Seriously. Seriously. The other thing worth noting though, as well, and this sort of goes back a little bit of time as well, is that Eric and a friend of his actually wrote a screenplay in which the main, the main characters, who were two brothers, murdered their parents. And Lyle read the screenplay, and that was sort of what informed what they ended up doing. Lyle's like, yeah, let's just let's do that. Yeah, well, he's in. His screenplay that he wrote was even based on a movie that had come out not long before that called The Billionaire Boys.

44:16 Yeah, he's seen it. I haven't seen it. I really need to need to give it a watch. Yeah, it's a full, you know, the Rat Pack kind of group of, you know, they're all in at the usual suspects of the late 80s. And it's it's not, it's not bad a movie, but I didn't realize that that was even based on a true story itself. So, yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. I mean, if he's he's kind of fantasized about what this was, but of doing this for. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Eric even confessed to this friend at one point that they'd done the murder not long after the murders.

44:52 And then the police tried to get that friend to wear a wire and have Eric confess again, and it didn't quite pan out the way they wanted it to. Yeah, it wouldn't be a second time. The police were jaded right from the get go with this, so I think. The biggest issue was that when the police that did arrive on the scene were the Beverly Hills Police Department. Apparently in Beverly Hills Police Department only have a maximum of about two murders a year that they deal with. In comparison, the LAPD if they had arrived, they deal with was it 3000?

45:26 No, it's it's. About 30 a week. 30 a week, right? Yeah, a lot more than the Beverly Hills Police Department. So the Beverly Hills Police Department were a bit more relaxed about the situation in terms of not coming. By they were. So when they arrived, they legitimately just were like these poor boys, like you know, who walked in and found and their parents killed. They just took the scene for what it was. And they like obviously they they do the right things in terms of the scene and protecting that.

46:00 But with the two boys, they literally they didn't separate them. They kept them together. They did take them back to the police station to get statements, but they didn't check them for and get them checked for gunshot residue. So they just were considered innocent from the get go, the booth of them sorry. And that really I think put the investigation on the back foot in for the rest of the time. They did not protect the boys for quite some time. And then a few meetings really started falling into place, didn't they?

46:33 So they were following this mob route really from the from the very beginning, not thinking about the boys whatsoever being relate in relation to this, not until they decided to the boys really started living it up really. And that sort of red flags for the place that hang on a second. That's not typical behaviour of people who've just lost their parents in such. Yeah. Yeah. So within the first, I think it was within the first four months, they'd spent about $700,000. They bought Gold Roll a Gold Roll XH up to the tune of $15,000 apiece.

47:11 I'll bought a new Porsche Carrera, I think. Yeah, and and Eric bought a Jeep Wrangler. Yep, Yep. They bought Armani suits. They bought. I got an Untold. Amount of each. I was going to say they bought a condo each. Yeah, the. Next day each other they moved into, so they didn't move back into that house. You know, after that they're cool. Fair enough. Yeah. Bought 2 condominiums next door to each other to move into. Yeah, yeah. Yep, they bought businesses and just ran them into the ground or didn't even.

47:45 Didn't know what to do. They didn't have a town yet. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, they have. They certainly hadn't inherited any of their father's business acumen. Yeah, yeah. And that's where that contradiction like though comes out in that how they were raised. It was such a strict, horrific household in terms of consequences of, you know, the physical nature of consequences and emotional outside of outside world beyond what happened in that household. It was 0 consequences for these boys in reality. So therefore be able to be able to function without these parents, you know, picking up the pieces for them sometimes whatever they weren't able to survive in that scenario.

48:25 No, they weren't. Within the first six months of the deaths, they'd spent nearly $1,000,000. Oh. God. And that's $1,000,000 in 1989. Nineteen. 90 like two and a half million now roughly roughly. I mean I could, don't get me wrong. You just need to go to the supermarket and buy a loaf of bread and a bottle of milk these days to spend that. But yeah, they, they certainly bought whatever they wanted. And that definitely raised suspicions for the police. They rocked up to their parents memorials, you know, with these new gold Rolexes, these, you know, incredible suits.

49:02 The police were still processing the crime scene. They turned up to the house and demanded to get their tennis gear because they had a tennis lesson they had to attend. And that was within a, you know, a day of their parents, you know, dying at their hand. But they kind of just went back to BAU and, and kept going with them. So I. Mean fascination in my mind in terms of it's a clear indicator of the kind of abuse that they had that they hadn't they hadn't thought their brains hadn't fully developed to me like to register grief or all these sorts of things of how you, like, they didn't even know how they were supposed to act.

49:39 You know what I mean? Like a fully functioning brain would go, OK, I did this, but I wanted to know and so I know that I've got to act a certain way. They didn't go to lay low. To do that they they had not their their brains are to me were not fully developed of an 1821 year old like to think of you know chemical. Prior, prior to the murders as well, the boys had had broken into like their parents friends homes and they, they stole something like $100,000 worth of goods just for the sake of it. Yeah, like they and, and Jose bailed them out of that as well.

50:19 So in order for them not to go to prison, so at the time that they, they perpetrated these, you know, break and enters and they, they were so brazen about it. He'd back a truck up to people's houses and literally just take out whatever they could get. Oh my God, the truck and move on. Like TV's. I mean, I guess back in the day you didn't have flat screen TV's. It would have been these giant CI didn't want to do it. I. Think that's it. I'm lucky to get a remote. It would have been attached to it, I guess by a, you know, a spiral.

50:51 Hold on, in the 80. Oh yeah, actually, no. That maybe it would have been had the cord attached. Still these days would have no idea, no. No, no, no. We used to have a rank arena that you had to get up and like change the channel on that didn't have a. Remaining Oh don't worry my parents. The pet TV we had is our family TV. One day we walked through a museum and that TV was in it. We let our parents come up. They still have it to this day. No no no no. Can't get the good HD on on the old rank arena.

51:23 Fast forward and replay his news. Bless. Anyway, so the boys have perpetrated these crimes and to basically make good on everything. At the time that they perpetrated them, I think Lyle was 19 and Eric was about 17. So Eric wasn't yet of adult age. So Jose decided that Lyle would claim innocence. They'd pin it all on Eric. And because Eric wouldn't go to prison because he was underage and he was a juvenile and first offense and bloody blah blah, Jose then paid back all of their friends who they'd stolen from, all of them.

52:10 They just gave them cash to replace everything, just paid them off. And Eric was caught like court ordered to participate in. He had got some community service hours, but he was called, ordered to participate, to receive psychological therapy. Yes. And the psychologist who they were introduced to at that time was none other than Doctor Jerome Ozil. So he becomes really important in this case because Jerome saw Eric for for during all this time. So from the time when he was about 17 all the way through the murders and Eric, I guess they as you would seeing a psychologist for such an amount of time, they developed a relationship where Eric really, I guess trusted him and disclosed a lot of information to him.

53:04 Not about the sexual assaults, which is interesting, but other aspects of the abuse were certainly discussed in those sessions. And one day after the murders, Eric a carnival got too much for him and he ended up confessing to Doctor. Unbeknownst to Eric, Doctor Azil recorded their sessions and kept. I think he did it for everyone. It wasn't just for Eric Menendez. It was just part of, I guess the way he practised. He's not. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So Eric's confessed to him. Doctor Azil then basically says that Lyle needs to come down and and have a chat as well.

53:49 Lyle comes down and he is absolutely furious with Eric, furious at the whole situation that Eric's disclosed what they've done. Lyle threatens Dr. Ozil and basically says to him, if you tell anybody that we've done this, you'll end up in the same way. Well. I think he, like, he actually said the words, Eric, we're now going to have to kill him and his family because, you know, so he'll have to keep him quiet. Like, so it was threatening not only him, but his or his extended family, too, his wife and children.

54:19 So that was, yeah. His wife and children. And unbeknownst to everyone in the situation, Doctor Ozil had a little peace on the side by the name of Judalon Smith. She was his mistress and also a patient of his. So I think that speaks to the, you know, the ethical prowess of this man. Yeah. Or lack thereof, like. And he decided that he needed a witness. So if anything did happen to him or to his family that he wanted the mistress to sit in the waiting room, he'd get Lyle and Eric back and get them to confess again.

54:58 And, you know, have her, you know, listening through the wall or through the door so that he had a first hand witness of of what had happened. Judalon agrees to this at the time because she is absolutely infatuated by Doctor Ozil. Excuse me. And what happens next, Meg? Yeah, so, yeah, so Judalong listens in Jerome Ozil. Dr. Jerome has also told his wife at this point though as well that that Eric has confessed. So he has broken client patient privilege already by telling other people about this.

55:39 However, according to Eric, he's only aware that he's told he's he's psychologist. So therefore he's under the impression that that is privileged information. However, the moment Lyle threatened the psychologist, that goes out although so sitting in the waiting room is Judalon listening in now. Not long after this, the doctor Jerome actually breaks up with Judalon and she is furious. She was not happy about that so. We told her that he was going to leave his family in stock for her as they as they do.

56:17 He'd been leading her on and yeah, she fully drank the kool-aid and thought that he would. So she was absolutely a woman scorned by the time. Totally, Yeah. So he, she then sorry, goes, she decides to take this information to the police, which I mean, good morning, really, to be honest. Yeah. Yeah. Because he had broken the privilege already by telling her. And So what? She's not under any any obligation to keep this information, nor would it have his his wife. So, yeah, so she went to the police and told them about these.

56:51 And so they, that gave them enough to arrest the boy, to arrest the two brothers. That was in October, I believe, 90, No 90. Yeah, they arrested. First of all, they arrested Lyle because at the time Eric was actually in Israel in a tennis tournament, so they had to wait for him to come back from there, and then they arrested him at the airport. Yes. So I think Eric voluntarily came back into the country and sort of surrendered, you know, to the police and to the yeah, to the warrant that was out, out for his arrest.

57:31 Yes. So from there basically though, because the the main evidence they had was the fact that there was a confession. It was then it went through the Supreme Court for like 2 years with the an appeal on whether or not this information could be used at Trump. So from basically once they got through all that and the decision was that those tapes could be used and that Jerome Azil would be to painted as well as his notes, all those sorts of things, he would have to testify and not pager himself and obviously be honest around what had happened.

58:04 He then was given a a date for trial. So I think it was three years past the actual by the time they actually had a date for trial. So basically they started out the boys going into court wearing these Armani suits, probably the ones that they bought with the money after the parents death and looking quite sharp and a little bit arrogant reading, having a laugh or whatever here or there. And then they managed to get hold of a lawyer by the name of Leslie Abramson, who as we were talking earlier, was depicted by 80 Fal Falcon in the that series, the Lauren Order series in the Yeah, yeah.

58:46 So and she was incredible, a great lawyer. She did her very absolute amazing job in this. And what she did was when they came, then when it came to trial, she had changed their appearance entirely in that they were wearing pastels and like and little. Shirt. Shirt, shirt collars coming out and she would purposely touch them all the time, you know, make them appear very human. And and childlike. Very, Yeah. Childlike. Yeah. So was very purposeful what she had done there to portray these boys. They don't.

59:23 They were. She was portraying them as boys and not as monsters. You know, to really, I guess, sway A. Jewelry. She even kept referring to them as the boys, the boys, the boys. Yeah, which way they were going, men by this point, both of. Them. They were men. They were in their well in their 20s at this point. I know at one stage, Eric, there was a quote out of the the the Robert Walter's interview where he said I'm just a normal kid and he was 25 when he said that. I found that a bit unnerving to be honest.

59:52 I just sort of thought no. The man, but their emotional growth, I guess, and is stunted. Yeah. I mean, through the trauma of what they'd experienced throughout their life, it doesn't surprise me that they still see themselves as children. I sometimes can't believe that I'm an adult. What should I? Do I don't wait? I've got responsibilities like. What I know, yeah. Yeah, it's that that didn't surprise me. I think Leslie had a really lovely relationship with the men, with Menendez brothers, with the brothers.

1:00:29 He fought for them like they were her own children, I think. And and she really believed that had they not been abused, this would never have happened. And socially argued, you know, with everything she had to really make the jury see, you know, see the situation for what it was. And interestingly, the boys, actually, they actually had their own jury in this first trial. So there were two separate queries, A jury for Lyle, a jury for Eric. And if there was testimony to be heard that only pertained to Lyle, Eric's jurors had to file out of the court.

1:01:06 You know, it would have been such a disruptive way. I don't know why they. Did that. I don't know why. Such a disruptive way of running the trial. Absolutely. As it turned out, both juries came back deadlocked. I can't believe that that happened. Like, I mean, it must have been to me, it has to be something to do with how it functioned for them to come back with that. I really, I don't understand. I mean, they were basically the fact of the matter is they they were saying they were guilty. They were saying they were innocent.

1:01:34 They were basically just trying to argue the fact that they were. It was a defensive act and therefore manslaughter and not first degree murder, although at this first trial there's no clear indication of that from the judge. In terms of what? I don't think he made it clear enough what they could come back. Everything was all on the table, wasn't it? Yeah, I think for the first trial everything was on the table, so it really gave the jury open slather. But they couldn't that. Doesn't really surprise me that they couldn't then all come to an agreement.

1:02:07 Because the prosecution was disgusting. It was awful. Yeah. And look, it was the time. I get that to a degree that the quote was men can't be raped because they don't have the equipment to be raped. What though she honestly a lot of allusions to Eric being gay and that he wanted to be sodomized because he was gay. And she yeah, very much betrayed the fact of like that these that he had to be gay because he was. He obviously enjoyed it because otherwise he would have told his dad to stop home and make sure it didn't happen because he was because how I got his age word and stuff, which just.

1:02:49 I mean the. Boys, in their testimony spoke about how they would bleed when it happened. He he not only sodomised them, he also forced them to perform oral sex on him. The the acts were actually, yeah, horrific. Mm hmm. And I mean none of that makes you gay. Who cares if you gay it like has no it. Has no bearing on. It in that conversation whatsoever but like to make statements men can't be racist. It's incest regardless of the gender of the child and the perpetrator. I mean, I know that Lyle has said, you know, I wonder if he would have been been seen differently and if he would have been seen differently if he was protecting a sister.

1:03:32 And I have to agree with him on a level that I think society would have seen this a lot more differently if he was protecting a girl over his younger brother, which is just, that's not OK in my mind. I I hope we've come beyond that now in this day and age. Yeah, I think some of. Us stop letting the victims yeah, stop it. That's that's we don't do that, no. I think I know there's enough evidence of like this being known to have been happening. As in no, of course no one witnessed it. Owen Kitty, who is also dead.

1:04:08 But there's enough evidence of the behaviour of the boys. You know, that psycho. If we had psychologists up on the stand, I'm sure they would talk to the fact of like, OK, they hadn't treated the boys, but that there are certainly behaviours that indicate potentially abuse. Yeah. But also the the first hand evidence from cousins and who are your first friends in life? They they had information. There was one of the, I was the one of the boys cousins who said that there was just a known rule that if Jose was up in the bedroom with one of the boys, you didn't walk down the hallway.

1:04:42 So there was something going on that shouldn't have been, you know, there was enough. There's enough there to know that these boys were not making this up. And I think again, it was in the Barbara Walters interview where she made it, asked a question which look, I didn't like her. She was quite aggressive with them and clearly. Thought I did not like that interview at all. But yeah, she asked a question that I, I wanted to ask, but she just did it in a way I just like. But she asked Eric you that she obviously felt you felt comfortable enough to tell, to confess to your therapist about murdering your parents, but you never felt comfortable enough with him to confess about the sexual abuse.

1:05:20 And his response to that was shame. It's like, wow, you felt less shame around killing your parents than the sexual abuse, which says so much to me. That speaks volumes that you know, that's that whole, you know, women wanting to be in the woods with a bear rather than a man that you know, they the on on effect of abuse is worse than being killed. You know, my God, that is that's heavy, isn't it? Is that's really, really heavy. Yeah. I think it's poor boys. I mean, I guess following the the deadlock of the deadlock jury that, you know, both trials were ended in a mistrial and so they had to go to trial against the mistrial occurred in January 1994 and they weren't retried until the end of 1995 and it didn't conclude until 1996.

1:06:16 So this is what, seven years after the? It's crazy, isn't? It it's a long time. Yeah. This time the judge, they had the same judge presiding. There was only one jury for both of them, and the judge decided that the sexual abuse testimony was inadmissible. Which I'm shocked. And why that couldn't be. Yeah, I'm in two minds about it. I think it should have been allowed. Yeah, that's. What? I'm in two minds because the judge decided that there was only two outcomes being possible, one being manslaughter and the other being 1st to go murder.

1:06:57 Yeah. Which ultimately the jury came back. It was conclusive that unanimous, unanimous sorry that it was first degree murder and therefore both the boys received two life sentences. Yeah, without the possibility of parole, Without parole. Whereas if they had gotten manslaughter, there would have been at least a parole point put in there. I think the maximum sentence for manslaughter at the time was 30 years, right? Because they could have caught two lots of that, but still with a parole period, I'm guessing.

1:07:27 Yeah, which means that there was a chance they could have got out at some point in their lifetimes, whereas now they won't. And also the death sentence was also as opposed a possibility that had to be decided upon after the fact. Yeah. So that with the first degree man, first degree murder being the conviction, I. What do you reckon on manslaughter con versus? Well, it's, it's really interesting because in my mind, manslaughter to me is where there's no premeditation, no planning. You've just killed somebody in the heat of the moment or reacting to something or defending yourself in a, in a, you know, whatever.

1:08:06 But, and so from just thinking about it purely from that perspective, the boys 100%, the men 100% premeditated this. They purchased guns. They then after the fact, they've gone, they've disposed of the weapons, they've had a shower, they've disposed of their clothes, they've come up with a story. They've LED the police on this wild goose chase to find these mobsters who didn't. Well, I'm sure they exist, but yeah, but who had no involvement in the crime. So at that level, I see it. I see the fact that yes, absolutely the jury had to convict them of first degree murder, but and and also taking into account that this particular jury weren't allowed to take into account any of the abuse allegations.

1:08:53 But knowing what we know, given the abuse, I just don't I I don't think they should have been convicted of life in prison. So I think. But then also. But then also the other thing is at no point is it OK to kill another human being. You know, they've, they had, they might have had to have started with nothing, with no money and started from the bottom up and, and really forged a life for themselves. But they could get away. They were adults, but then they were also groomed from the time that they were children.

1:09:33 And they probably didn't have the capability, you know, emotionally to be able to or even like mentally to be able to plan that and get and forge that path for themselves. So I really don't. Know I think that's I'm the same in some sense. I I do feel like they got what they deserved with a with a first degree noted conviction. I I have all empathy for the abuse that they they had, but ultimately there are other options. No, they're not easy routes to take, but I think that there were options prior to before killing their parents.

1:10:16 I really do think that they weren't complete and utter idiots. They did have access to family who clearly knew what was going on. They still, their families still stand by them to this day. So yeah, their aunties and uncles, like the brothers and sisters of Jose and Kitty, stand by them to this day. Yeah, I think that they would have if they had just stepped away from like 5 minutes and thought to themselves, hey, if Dad does go ape, we'll be at, you know, Auntie so and So's house or, you know, Uncle so and So's house to protect us.

1:10:52 We'll contact the police. You know, we'll add this to the world and that'll be done, you know, kind of. Thing that would never have happened though. You don't reckon? No. What if I don't happened? Well, I just don't think, I think they were. They were groomed to the point where they they just knew they couldn't put that out there. Yeah, but I mean, they could've just walked around for you though, as in like instead taking money that's. That's absolutely what they should have done. Yeah, they didn't.

1:11:22 They didn't. Yeah. And so I, I, I agree that they ended up where they needed to be. And they, they even say that in that interview with Barbara Walters, they, they fully accept that what they did was the wrong thing. Yeah, they wish they hadn't done it. And they understand why they are where they are. Yeah, I mean the other, I know the other outcome of this, and Eric has certainly admitted to this, that if he didn't kill the kill his parents, he would have killed himself, which is just horrendous to think.

1:11:50 I think he'd even said in that interview that he wishes he had. He wanted to trade, wishes he'd trade places with them. And I get that that's not an outcome. That's not the right outcome either. No one wants anyone dead out of this. But I don't know how you then say that that's OK to premeditate and murder them, murder your parents for what they did, and then say that that's only manslaughter like that. To me, it breaks the rule of what manslaughter and what the difference between and 1st degree murder are.

1:12:21 Yeah. Because I know there's a big wave at the moment. It's just dog generation wanting to try and get the matter of jail based on some new evidence that's come forward. But I just don't know if there's enough in it that would change. Yeah. So the outcome the. Evidence. The evidence that's come to light is that back when Jose was a record executive with RCA Records, they had a band on their books called Menudo. They were a Were they a Puerto Rican band? Yeah. I don't remember. You left. One of the band members, Roy Rosello, has come out to say that during their time there that Jose raped him.

1:13:05 Yeah, he also claims so. Roy also claims that there was, I think it was their band manager was also like raping him consistently throughout that period as well. Yeah, he's only like 14 I think. He was 14. He was 14. And so look, we know there's a lot of research that's been done about disclosure of sexual abuse, especially in men. And I think I've read somewhere that the average reporting time is something like 30 years. So the fact that this is coming out now doesn't surprise me, you know, And the fact that it didn't come Outback then doesn't surprise me.

1:13:43 And we talked about that. It was the shame of it that Eric didn't even confess to, you know, his therapist who he'd compete confessed murder to. He hadn't confessed his sexual abuse. You know, there's, there's a lot of evidence to support why this Roy hasn't come forward, you know, before now. I get that. That would then pretend. Well, see, I don't know whether that's enough to then have a retrial to say the sexual abuse needs to come into it. Have a have a retrial. Unfortunately, Roy's Roy's probably never going to get the justice he deserves because, you know, he's already dead.

1:14:20 Which, yeah, that shit. But I think that unfortunately this one, the ship has sailed on that. Unfortunately, I don't think that's enough. To I think the hope is yeah, I look, I think the. What they're hoping is that that would potentially render the sexual abuse of Lyle and Eric admissible if this Roy was happy to testify, you know, on their behalf. It look from everything I've been reading about it, it doesn't look likely they're going to get a retrial anytime that's. Cool. He already heard all the evidence of it in the first trial.

1:14:58 He made a decision for whatever reason he didn't want that in the second trial. Yeah, I mean, I do agree or disagree with that decision now or back then is the same. It's the same to be it. Yeah. I don't see him going all of a sudden, you know, a judge chewed around and saying, you know, there'll be there'll be lengthy notes as to why that judge made that decision. And so I can't see another judge stepping in now and saying, you know, this random other person who was abused by which again, you'd have to prove it, which I mean, I hate that fact of like, I believe the victim, but there will need to be evidence of that occurring for it to then be valid to come into the trial.

1:15:41 And not only that, there's got to be a link there of a bit more I think of. Well, there is there is one other piece of evidence that's come to light that may may speak to that, and that is a letter that Lyle wrote to his cousin back when he was like eight or nine years of age, I think. And in that letter he discloses the abuse. I. Think so. More water in it. Yeah, unfortunately, like it's got an only attachment to this story. Yeah, and only recently has the cousin found this letter, which is why it's sort of going around.

1:16:17 And and that's sort of that combined with this, you know, this confession by or this revelation by Roy Rosello. Yeah, those two things together, you know, the family, I find this really interesting, that the family. So Kitty's sister, who's a sister and brother, I believe, all think the boys have done enough. The boys, they're men. The men, the Menendez brothers have done enough time. Yeah, and they should be let out. Well, I mean, they're now 56 and 53. Look, I mean, are they going to offend again?

1:16:52 I don't think so. You know, I don't, I think they, they certainly only they killed the people that they felt threatened by. I don't feel they're a threat to general society at the same time you're playing with fire and our justice order, our justice system. But it's American justice, justice system by changing backflipping on these rulings without, Yeah, solid razor. Yeah, look, I think you're right. Although look, the the the brothers have made something of the set themselves a little bit in prison too.

1:17:26 They've both got degrees, they've both got marrying you at that point. But I just find, I know, I just find it so friggin bizarre. Who would be like, Oh yeah, I'll marry an inmate. There's no physical intimacy in those relationships. But you and I are like, we're two current addicts, right? But there is no way. And there is nothing in me that makes me go. I might write a letter to an inmate, you know, and then fall in tracks. No, I can't come at that. I don't know that that is there's a real phenomenon behind all of that.

1:17:59 I just don't get it because I ended up marrying Anna Erickson. I think it was her name. Yeah. Not long after them being convicted and then that. But that ended pretty soon. And then we ended up marrying another woman by the name of Tammy. Well, she's Tammy Menendez in 1999. They're still married. That's Eric, Eric, Eric, Tammy, Eric, and then Lyle's the one who's had two marriages. Lyle married Anna Ericsson. Eric married. I've got the wrong way around. And then Lyle married Rebecca Sneed in 2003 and Rebecca's actually got a daughter and she takes her daughter to visit him in prison every week.

1:18:42 But it's obviously not Lyle's. No, it's not. They haven't been able to like, you know, so she would feel revealed if he had. My drift. OK. Yeah, she had a child previously to, I mean this relationship. She's going to be like, well in F what, 20? Well into her 20s or her 30s now. Hey, crazy because they married her, right? 1003? Her and Lyle, 2003. Yeah, yeah. I just don't get that. But anyway, each their own. A few just last little things to sort of tidy, tidy it up a bit. Yeah.

1:19:17 The house that they lived in in Beverly Hills, where the parents were murdered, was previously owned by Elton John Prince and Michael Jackson. Yes, yeah. Like what? So that gives you an idea of the caliber of this actually. Their house, I believe they were potentially renting that place because they were renovating their place in Calabasas I. Thought they sold the place in Calabasas because that's where the boys perpetrated that crime against all their friends. No. And they're like, oh, we've got to get the shit out of here because nobody would want us in Calabasas.

1:19:53 Any Yeah, no, they were having like full renters done of their like because that's the the place in Beverly Hills were actually quite small. That's where they like were shot in that den. It was quite a small little room. Whereas in their Calabasas home it was huge, grand. Yeah, yeah. Oh, no, yeah. Interesting. And in terms of the rest of the money of the of the family, like we spoke about the fact that they couldn't find a lot of it or a lot of what was suspected to have been there. But the rest of the money that was leftover just went to the lawyers like there's, there's actually nothing left now.

1:20:26 No, maybe. Well, there isn't. Leave it with me. We've got any tips on which country it might be in First, I can't start with you. Not not that I've been able to find, but having said that, I haven't gone deep, deep into it because, you know, time and kids and you know, life, but and get into that for us and we'll put back yes, but I have a little tidbit for you before we go too. Oh yes, so. In their, in their spending spree between having just murdered their parents and before they were, they were arrested, the boys were living it up and they went to quite a few basketball games.

1:21:04 And in particular one basketball game they were at was with the New York Knicks and they got courtside tickets to this game and they have been immortalised on a game player's trading card. So in the background of a Mark Jackson trading card for basketball for the New York Knicks, you will see Sydney courtside Lyle and Eric Menendez. That is gold. We will put a picture of it. On our socials for you everyone, it's it is. Absolutely amazing. But The thing is, eBay have got so annoyed with this 'cause this card goes for a Pretty Little penny these days, but eBay don't like this card and they to post it on eBay for it to get sold without eBay taking it down, you have to post it with like remove, they remove the image of Eric and and Lyle and they don't mention them at all within the post.

1:21:54 But so you've got to just know what card of is you're after gotta get it. But I think it's it goes for about $1500. This card, it's amazing. You're on mute. Sorry. I had to cough. I'm really sorry. Did. They have to sell it because it's like a proceeds. Sorry, did does eBay not let them sell it because it's like a proceeds of crime thing? Why? The reasoning behind that is that eBay apparently in 20. 18 just started going now you're not selling that on here and started removing it. Interesting. Well, we'll definitely pop a photo of that up on us.

1:22:26 Our socials because that is awesome. I mean, Can you imagine being the person not looking at this trading kind of going, wait a. Minute. I know those two phases because they were everywhere, weren't they? Like they were on TV? That the. Whole trial, the whole first trial, the second trial wasn't broadcast at all, but the whole first trial was, yeah. All these, I mean, they're faces that, you know, these faces, yeah. I mean, they look quite, you know, and you look at photos of them now and you're like, hold on, wait.

1:22:49 Which one's which a little bit. You actually see the similarity now between them I think even. Now, like because Lyle's bald, but even then I'm like, hence this spitting image like the two of them, they're such brothers. They really do look very similar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But people were like women in. Particular they were. Outside the courtroom and stuff, they were like swooning after these two. Yeah, I don't really. I don't get it. I don't get it either. I'm sure they were both guys far more healthy.

1:23:16 OK. The fact that you bring up your crush on Daryl Braithwaite all the time. Is probably less than healthy. I won't. I won't get into who I had a crush on in 1989. Probably hold. On 1989. So I would have been four. It's probably John from play School. Oh, that's creepy, actually. Oh. He was lovely, yeah. Figure I'm not at. Well, so strong. Braithwaite. Hello General Braithwaite, mate. Oh my God. I mean, songs, come on. What's that? Yeah, true. John. There's bear in there. It's a little bit different.

1:23:53 Well, I think that's probably a good place for us to work. And leave off because crazies are sitting in it's. Like, but thank you everybody for joining us. If you could please, you know, subscribe to our podcast on whatever app you're listening to this on. It really, really helps us get more listeners and the more listeners we get, the more episodes we can bring you. And we've got a few things, a few really exciting things in the works. So stay tuned for, you know, updates as we go along. We will be back next week with a new episode.

1:24:31 So thank you everybody. Do you still have a real quick shout out? Oh yes, I. Forgot the shout out, sorry everybody. No, we had, we've had some really great comments on. Posts recently, particularly around our second episode Jean Benet mad on YouTube and also Spotify. I think this comment particularly came from that we just had some really, you know, people really responding to us, which is so amazing. And it's not even my mum. It's like someone we don't know my mum well. I firstly. I don't think Pat had actually know how to respond on Spotify.

1:25:06 Love you, Pat, love you. But you know, especially when she was like, I just see your fences. I don't get to hear. It mum, that's 'cause your volume's not up and she's gorgeous. So yeah, no, this one's not from. Patty, it's actually from Moon. Dogs a AU so thank you very much Moon Dogs and the comment is another great episode. I was listening in bed and went to reply out loud as I felt like I could just join in. Can't wait for the next for next week's episode, ladies. So thank you, Moo Dogs. That is brilliant.

1:25:35 Please just chime in. Please do add your comments. We want the conversation continuing after episodes. So we really appreciate it. Absolutely. Yeah, we love it. And thank you everybody for listening and. We'll see you next week for the next one. See you everyone. Bye. Stay curious, Crime. Besties.