Episode 12 - Golden State Killer

0:15 Welcome back everybody, to Two Crime Besties for another episode. We're back. We're back. Yay. We've had a really short turn around time this time because we ended up recording our last episode a little later in the week than we normally do, so we've had slightly less time to do the research on this one, but that's OK. It'll be all right, Emerald, Emerald, get us together and we'll be right. That's. It exactly. Oh, sure, sure, sure. No pressure. Yeah, No pressure. None. None. None at all. I've just noticed that for anybody who's actually watching the video of us doing this, we have dressed the same again today.

0:51 Yeah, Yep, we've both gone with the green things. Were somewhat different. I know we've done other days it's been even worse. So yeah. Yeah, we've had matchy, matchy and I've had to go and get changed. Yes, it's funny how it works like that. Oh. Man, is that the sign of like, what's that a sign of? Is it knowing each other too well? Maybe, I don't know, it's. Not like we rang each other last time I went Hey green tomorrow. I'm matching up in many ways lately. It's not good. Oh, that's it. That's it.

1:21 What's been happening in the last few days for you? Oh man, it's been a crazy week. So much stuff going on this week. My head's all over the place so I apologise now. No, that's gonna make for a really fun episode. It's like I've been drinking when I haven't been drinking. Isn't it OK? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. There's like my week has been crazy. I'm I'm really again, I think I said this same last week and it's just carrying on. I'm over people, people. I just. I don't know. Yeah, there's some real, real assholes that just like to screw with your day, Yeah.

1:53 Yeah, I hear you. Yeah, I hear you. But and I think winter and especially now we're sort of in the depths of winter. I'm hoping by the time this episode's released actually, we'll be easing into spring, but we're a few weeks ahead so. Definitely some people being unwell, it really impacts them and they just take it out and everyone around them and like, it's just that, you know, that lingering cold or whatever. But yeah, everyone just seems extra grumpy and extra, I don't know, like just dropping the ball on things that they should get done.

2:20 Yeah, right. In every aspect of life. I think, yeah. I just can't. I just tell my people. Yeah, it happens. It happens. Hopefully with, you know, the tide of spring, we will, things will shift and it'll all be all be good fun. But. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who knows? But we're just talking about show you like with the change of season. Is it like, you know, the new basketball season starts for the kids and we're saying about how like the constant like on like for school with all the, you know, and there's just so much on at the moment of like pay for this, pay for that, pay for this, pay for that.

2:52 I feel like it's forking money out left right and centre at the moment. Yeah, it's crazy. And I think like term 3 just seems to be a mental term for all of that stuff. It's like, yeah, they cram everything. They do it. Term 4 is busy anyway. It's a no, no report term. So everything is crammed. It's crammed into term three, Term 3. There's nothing on in term 3. Let's do a term 3. Everyone, every teacher does it. OK. Been there. Yeah, because. That kids have got excursions, there's crepe days. We just had mini Olympics.

3:18 There's so much going on, School camps coming up. Yeah. And. Swimming, which we haven't had notices of yet, but it will come. I think that's term four though for our. Kids. Oh, my kids are convinced it's this term. Oh, OK. Yeah, All right. Keep an eye up for that one. I love it. Held out till term 4. Just warmer weather. Yeah, if nothing else, getting the towels dry. Yeah, that's. True. Hey, that's it, that's it. Love this quick swimming turnover for the for washing. Oh. Jesus, it kills me that that fortnight of swimming with school.

3:45 I know, right? I know, yeah. Smell of chlorine. Delish. Yeah, today we're talking about the Golden State Killer yes, episode 12 and here we are this is a big case. I don't think it's gonna be A2 parter at this stage because you can absolutely deep dive into this case and we could probably do A10 parter on it. Yeah, as many people have. As many people have. And that's the thing like we've there's if you're really interested in this case and you wanna know more, there is so much information out there about him and his crime and every victim and every crime and there were so many crimes that we know of that have been attributed is the.

4:26 Only way to describe him in that sense. Prolific. Yeah. And I still don't think we know the extent, the absolute extent of what, of the crimes that he perpetrated because he is an absolute monster. So the Golden State Killer, that's what he was finally come to known at to be known as his. His name is Joseph James DeAngelo and he was born on the 8th of November in 1945 and in the mid 1970s in California in the United States he started perpetrating these crimes. Mm hmm. He went by so many pseudonyms.

5:04 Yeah, so and because they didn't each one the way he, they didn't actually marry up that he was the same person. This is the thing, yeah, even even now, they don't know that some of these, some of the names given to these perpetrators, whether they are actually attributable to him, but these are the ones that they're pretty sure he is the perpetrator of the crime. So he was known as the Visalia Ransacker, the East Area Rapist, the East Side Rapist, the East Bay Rapist, the Creek Bed Killer, the Diamond Not Killer, the Original Night Stalker and the Golden State Killer.

5:42 There's another name that he was went by and it's Eerons, which is a combination of the East Area Rapist and the original Night Stalker. So at some point during the investigation, they put together those two. Yeah. So then that was known as Iran. So that's the East Area Rapist. Also had Night Stalker. I also had the Orange County killer as linked to him too. I didn't, but maybe I'm wrong. Oh, no, not necessarily. I do. Yeah. I've got in my notes here, I've listed as the orange. Orange. Yeah, the Orange County killer.

6:12 Well. I mean, I guess it's in the same area. So this is mostly more than in California.

6:20 He perpetrated over the course of his crime career. Now this is what they have been able to prove he was involved with. There were 13 murders, 51 rapes, 120 burglaries minimum. Yeah. He's, and the thing that is really interesting with this case as well is he escalated as time went on. So he started out with burglaries that progressed to rapes, and then within that the murders sort of started. Yeah, yeah. When he lost control in a situation, obviously, I think. That's it exactly. So he was married.

6:59 He was married to a woman named Sharon Marie Huddle. They were born. They were married in 1973. And at the time he was a police officer. That's how I mean that. That's mind blowing to me it. Really is, I mean, and they did in in profiling him, they they were where they believe that he would have been in some sort of police or army or some sort of in that sort of area for, for work. And they were spot on. Yeah. So well done to those profilers. But it flaws me that someone who is in that kind of work does think would would think to want to do this sort of stuff.

7:42 Yeah, Yep, yeah. They, I think the profiler said that he was more than likely military. Yeah, because, well, he also was, wasn't he? I believe he did he, but I don't think he served. I don't know if it was like, did he serve a term in the Navy? I'm fairly sure because that was part of the Diamond Knot Killer title. Right. OK, the the knots that he tied during his, when he perpetrated these crimes, yeah, they were they were Navy knots. And he was very good at one particular knot that he used was this diamond knot.

8:14 Yeah. Which is almost impossible to get out of. OK, so that's where he got that name, right. So he must have done enough to, I don't know, get a tie. Good knots. I don't know how good. How much time you need to spend in the Navy to become good at tying knots? I don't know. Yeah. I didn't see a lot about his military career in doing my research. So I don't know whether it was like AI don't know is is there what do we have here like the reserves? Is there a reservist? Yeah, I don't know equivalent in in America.

8:45 I don't know. Anyway, if you want to look into that, feel free. Yeah, and he also worked as a as a mechanic after his policing crew. Well, sort of ended because he got. Sacked. He took place the police from stealing dog repellent. Yeah, I didn't even know that existed. No either did I. Never heard of that before this. The dog repellent exists and apparently stops the dogs from barking. Oh, maybe I need that for my dog. I was. Going to say, but what it really floored me because in this case, like a lot of people were commenting throughout the these, these perpetrating, they were commenting around the fact that my dog didn't bark like and normally my dog would bark or protect and he they weren't.

9:29 But why steal it? Like he wasn't destitute? No, although money did play like him. I guess I'm getting really far ahead of my sorry that was my fault. No, no not at all. But I'm just wondering like why would you put your career at risk as a police officer to steal something? Like how much would dog repellent cost? But I guess that was part of his MO. In a year days. Too Of like that, that the thrill of, I mean, started out with burglaries and burglary like and robbery, robbing, very odd things, yeah.

9:59 So. But which I find really, really funny that in some ways that he got caught doing it at work where you would be like, surely you're going to be more careful around doing it somewhere like that in that when he's going out to the public and doing it, they couldn't catch him for so many years. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, it it it blows my mind, Yeah. Being that he was a police officer meant that he knew processes and he knew what would happen when a crime was perpetrated and how it would, how the police would go obviously go about investigating it.

10:33 And in many instances, he actually investigated his own crimes. Yeah, yeah. Which again, that was really probably what he got off on, you know, that idea of being have having control over that investigation in that way, like, you know, having knowledge and yeah. And his, I mean, colleagues have been interviewed, and he'd be the first one to put his hand up to go in there and investigate them easily. Then he could destroy any evidence that he may have accidentally left behind or, I guess, alter evidence to make it look a certain way.

11:08 And he did that. And he got away with these crimes for years. So the crime spree really went from around 1974 to 1986. He had three children in that time too. So he and his wife had three daughters. His wife is a divorce lawyer, a divorce attorney they, but she never divorced him, not until 2019. Like they stayed together until after he was arrested. They weren't together though. No, they went together. No, they were separated, but they never actually divorced. Yeah, until after his arrest and everything.

11:42 So. I've heard that the reason that she didn't divorce him is because of spousal privilege and that maybe she knew things that she didn't then want to have to rat on him again. Interesting because she's gone quiet she and so have her daughters and in a lot of ways I respect that. And so in that I, I understand that being connected to someone like that is how on earth do you process that? But yeah, maybe there's stuff that she knows. I feel like, why else would you do it? But then having said that, though, she divorced him in 2019.

12:16 Yeah. And he went to trial in 2020, I guess while they were married, that's still considered spousal privilege during that time period. Or it doesn't negate it just because they got divorced after the time. I don't know. I assume so because she she never testified in no, well didn't have to testify because he pledged well he. Pled guilty, I guess that I guess the once he did that, she could sort of move on, yeah. I guess. Yeah, I mean, I think luckily lucky to everyone he didn't in some ways. I mean as much as a trial would have been fascinating and we would have found out far more about him and his and the process he went and everything, I think we would have found out a lot of stuff and that would have been fascinating.

12:56 But I think for the victims and etcetera, that was just a far better way of going about things for him to just admit guilt and be like, yes, I did this. Yeah, yeah, as much as yeah, we don't get any info. Well. No, no, no, no. When I was looking into this, there was a really good podcast, long form podcast that I listened to and it's called The Man in the Window. It was a podcast made by, OR yeah, I guess produced by the LA Times. So if you want more information and sort of a little bit more in depth into every one of his victims and maybe not every single one of his victims, but many of these victims, that's a really good one to go and have a look at.

13:37 What? What did you use to research? Yeah, a really good long form on that. I'm I haven't actually haven't finished yet, but I'm really, really enjoying. I'm gonna finish it regardless of the fact that we've already recorded this is it's by Criminology. It was their season 2. The full season is devoted to the, to the, the Golden State Killer. It it, they do a really good job. I mean, they've talked to a lot of the investigators. They talk to some of the, the victims and victims family who those who didn't survive.

14:05 Because I'd, I'd rather use probably the term for survivor than victim, to be honest. Mm hmm. There's because some of the, the survivors particularly are incredible what they've gone on to do after this, to help others, et cetera, because the, the trauma they've been put through was horrendous. Yeah, yeah. So it was a real, it's a really good long form podcast. Quite a few books I've listened to as well. Another one was actually the real crime Profiler. Yeah, real crime, sorry, Real crime profile podcast was not had quite a few good episodes as well.

14:34 OK, yeah. So that's and they've talked to victims as well. Yeah. So there's a lot of information out there if you want to go a lot deeper, but I guess let's have a bit of a look at had his signature about his MO and and see where it happens. So as the Visalia Ransacker, he would actually come into people's homes. So he'd he was very meticulous in the way he cased houses. He knew where people were, when they were going to come and go, who was in the house. And he always picked his timing to be whatever he wanted that to be in that circumstance.

15:09 A lot of time picking his victim. This is what makes me think his wife had to have known because he would have liked the amount of time he would have had to have devoted to each ransacking, to each burglary, to each rape, to each murder. How did she like what he's going out at all hours of the night? Because most of the crimes were perpetrated at night. Yeah, well that was where being a police officer worked in his favour. I know that from listening to a podcast from on the perspective from the brother-in-law.

15:38 So her brother, the wife's brother, and he said the fact that he worked as a police officer quite often he would just say, oh, we had this case towards the end of my shift and had to stay longer to write reports. OK. And a lot of the times when they in, in afterthought, he goes back over some of those things and goes, oh, wow. Like that's actually when that victim, like when that happened. Oh yeah. And he said actually there was a number of them. There's particular dates when there's the brother-in-law, he went over the dates of because he was so prolific, it was sort of pretty monthly that he would pick a victim basically.

16:11 And when he looked over it, there were particular dates where he would perpetrate the crime. And each year that those dates popped up again and again and it was his birthday was one of them, that there was a a perpetrating he perpetrated on he on the brother in law's birthday over a couple of years, like repeatingly on that same date. And he's like, yeah, we're out as a family. He didn't like socializing Joseph. And so he wouldn't come to like a family gathering that was his out of like, I don't want to go, you know, you go to your family's birthday celebrations.

16:40 He was perpetrating the crime. They were all distracted by celebrating a birthday and, you know, not watching the TV and seeing the news that night because they were out at. Dinner gone doing his beauty Now's now's my my opportunity. Yeah. Oh God. I mean, how sickening you feel like, you know, oh, we were doing that. We were celebrating something and he's off doing that. Oh, God, that you would just never get over that knowing that. Yeah, I know there were instances, especially with the burglaries, where I think the the night that he had the most number of crimes, he broke into 20 houses in one night.

17:17 Wow. 20 And that was all within a city block. Oh no, he. Wasn't breaking into like steel, you know, things of value. Yeah, either. It was just the IT was the thrill of breaking in being able to get in, have control of that situation and it and then it was also that torture of aspect of I'll steal one of your favorite. Earrings. Yeah. Like, and he, he, he would do weird shit like get all of the female underwear out of the house and like, stuck it on the kitchen table. Yeah. He'd make or change or change drawers.

17:50 Like he would he would go through their drawers and take their underwear out of the drawer and put it in someone else's drawer, but not take any underwear. Yeah, so. So the time people would really wouldn't realize for quite some time after the fact, they'd kind of go where's this like some random item and they'd realize he's taken it or he'd. Move a photo or like just really creepy, creepy shit. Creepy, creepy shit. Yeah. Yeah. So I think when he perpetrated that night that he did sort of the 20 burglaries in one hit, yeah.

18:20 Police were then like, oh, this is escalating because that was sort of heading more towards the end of the burglary sort of side of things. And things were starting to really escalate. So as you were saying, if he's looking to get a bit of a thrill from this and it's taking 20 burglaries in one night to to thrill him, Yeah, it kind of stands to reason that the next thing he does is start escalating his behaviours. And unfortunately, what that actually meant was that he started raping women. The things that he did to these women.

18:53 Again, if you listen to any of these long form podcasts, it goes into it. Some of them go into it in a in a fair bit of depth, but. Because the actual, well, two things here. Firstly, rape isn't about sexual stuff. It's about control 100%. But that's the thing with this whole thing. The rape is actually, I mean, I don't want to minimize rape. It's horrific. But to be really honest, what he did to them psychologically was. Horrible, he tortured. Them. Yeah, he did. And not only on that night before and after.

19:27 So he would come into the house. If there was a male present in the home, he would make the male lie down on their front, stack dinner plates on their back and say to the male, if you move or if I hear these plates move in any way, I will come here and kill you. And then I will kill your wife. I will rape and kill your wife. Yeah. So these poor men were lying there. They had you would have no option. Like what do you do? You've got dinner plates stucked on your back. You would be. Here's them rattle.

20:01 I mean, God, that that would rattle at anything, any breathing and especially breathing in an anxious state like that. Yeah, Oh God, it's or thinking you're now putting your wife if you know there were kids as well, sometimes in the home, putting everyone at danger if you move in any slight way. Yeah, yeah. So he'd come in, he'd bind people, like all of the members of the household. He'd blindfold them. Yeah. So in a, in a lot of these instances, once he'd sort of moved from the burglaries into the rapes, people didn't really know what he looked like.

20:35 No, he wore a ski mask. And yeah. That's right. And, and what I found interesting was he actually had a different ski mask almost every time he perpetrated a crime. Wow. So there was no so nothing left on it. That's it, Yeah. Actually. So he must. I don't know. What? Where on earth was he buying? Well. Where was he buying them? Where was he disposing of them? Yeah. Did he keep them as trophies? I I don't know. That's never come out. Yeah. So he's got different gloves every time, different ski mask and often and he would wear different clothes.

21:08 Well, actually, on that most efficient burglar and rapist ever because he would rock up with no pants on, Yeah. Ready to go? Ready to go? Which, I mean, this is where I've become with my anal self. Anyway to, you know, make things easier? Nice. Choice of words there, by the way. Really bad. God, yeah. But to rock up with no pants on to be able to, like one, perform the ACT that he's going to perform like efficiently and get it done and without the issue of pants up and down. But if you know, he gets interrupted in some way to exit without having to pull pants up and whatever he's he's smart in that sort of truth.

21:50 Yeah, he never intended to leave quickly though, and that's why the pants thing. I guess it's just in case he was sprung, even though he generally would have done enough research to know he wasn't going to get sprung, so he would perpetrate these horrific rapes, including sodomy, including like oral rape. He made the victims do awful. Things horrible. He'd bind their hands behind their back and make them like touch his penis because he liked to see their hands bound and touching him. Touching his.

22:22 Teeny tiny teeny tiny little penis. Literally, Literally, apparently. Hold on. I actually wrote down a quote about his penis. I love that. So you say that one more. Time I wrote a quote about his penis if that ends up on on TikTok oh God. So one of the investigators wrote in one of her reports that he had an extremely small penis and they even went to doctors around when they were investigating trying to figure out who this bloke is. They went to doctors around the areas where he was raping people to go, anybody here have like a bit of a micro penis that you know that you know of because they're like, this is an identifying feature potentially.

23:02 Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you imagine getting that question? Like got a patient with a small Dick. Yeah. I don't know what the percentage of that is in the population, but yeah, I don't think it turns out any leads in the end. Yeah. But apparently, like, because he's he's one of his victims, which is horrific. She was only 13 years of age and she was a virgin. Yeah. And so him raping her and multiple times he raped her, but it never broke her hymen. Inch I did. Not that's how small a penis he had.

23:33 There you go. Yeah, that poor girl. She was. Her name was Margaret Wardlow, 13 years of age. And I've heard an interview with her where she actually said, so she's obviously a grown adult now. And she said I knew I just had to give him zero satisfaction. I knew he would want me to be begging for my life and saying to asking him to stop. And she said I gave him none of it. I just said to him, do what you need to do. Yeah. Gave him at 13 years of age to have the presence of mind to be like that. She she.

24:08 And she actually said to him, I'm not afraid of you. Oh. God go her. Yeah. And her mum was at home when that happened. Oh, unbelievable. Yeah, unbelievable. Yeah. She just accepted that he was going to rape her and. And it happened and he left. He would sometimes do some really strange things after after perpetrating the crime on the victims or on the survivors, he would go into their kitchen and make himself a meal. Yeah, and he'd sit down, cook, sit down on a balcony and Yep, take in the view or whatever.

24:41 And then he'd go back and rape them again. Yep. And then he'd go and wander around the house and do something else. Move their underwear around or whatever it was he was doing. Very. Weird. So I mean it wasn't just a, you know, rape and gone like and it was in and out quickly like that. Yeah, it was very like it was a lot of time of this, this poor victim lady, they're going, is he going to come back again? And this is part he left. Is he here this? Is part of the torture, Yeah. Isn't it, that they didn't know whether he was still around?

25:08 No. He would then also phone them for weeks and for some, for some of the months. And one of his victims? The first one, yeah, it was years. He would ring them. Oh my God, you need to go on to YouTube and listen to this. But he would ring and he'd just breathe into the receiver. He'd be like, like horrific. And then he'd say things like, I'm gonna fucking kill you. Yeah. Like weird shit. When you're listening to that recording like that, it gave me absolute chills. Like I real, real crime stuff doesn't affect me like that.

25:44 I don't get scared of it. Like I don't know what it is, but horror movies really freak me out. I can't do horror movies. Oh me either this do about you? History is horror movies. Like he is literally literally his crimes could have been scripts in horror movies. His very first victim he appeared in her doorway with a knot with his knife tapping on the she worked to the tapping of his knife on the the the door frame of the door. I mean, that's full blown monster in a horror movie Shit to the point where when she, you know, in her days, confused of waking up, actually thought she was seeing things and threw her bed cover back over her head going Oh my God, go to sleep, you idiot like kind of thing, like, you know, like what on earth that it was that that weird that and then he jumped on her kind of thing.

26:34 So I mean, he's just beyond and I had I said it to you during the week researching this, it's the first time I've ever done the whole gone and checked my locks, triple checked my locks at night, going to bed after listening to podcasts or reading things around this case because he was a. Genuine monster monster, A creep, a terrorist. Like he's just horrible. One of the ones that creeps me out the most in terms of his researching his victims and then perpetrating crime. I don't know if you've heard this or not, but they the, the, the rapes got so bad.

27:06 They started like these these town meetings and they had a town meeting and one of the guys in the town meeting stood up and said, how on earth is this guy raping his woman's, a man's wife in the house while he's home? There's no way that would happen in my home. I'd, you know, beat the guy out of there, meet off, you know, I'd beat him up, I'd kill him. You know how on earth a man in the Uptown allowing this to happen. And so that was that he they left the town meeting. I think within a few months of that town meeting, Joseph rocked up at his house.

27:42 This guy that spoke at the town meeting raped his wife and left. So he did it straight to that man to show him you think you could you that other men can protect their wives and you can do better than they've done. Not when I'm around. Like how freaking creepy he was at that town meeting. He was and he was at. That photo, I think someone's found a photo of him sitting at the town meeting. And so he's heard this guy speak. He's spent some time researching him and finding the perfect time and going, Oh well, there you go, you're my next victim.

28:14 Fuck you, buddy. How? Freaking creepy. He's so creepy. One of the other victims that I sort of looked into. She was his fifth victim. And there there are quite a lot of interviews with her, sort of like clips of her on YouTube. Her name is Jane Carson Sandler and her experience. So this one happened at 6:00 in the morning, but apparently it was very dark like it was. It's not like a summer, 6:00 in the morning. It's depths of winter, 6:00 in the morning. It was 1976. And she said she saw a bright light down the end of the hallway, but her husband was about to leave for work, so she was like, oh, that's weird.

28:55 Like normally he wouldn't have a flashlight type thing, but whatever, Didn't really think that much of it. And then a man comes from that end of the hallway wearing a ski mask, coming at her. He's holding this hunting knife. And at that time of the morning, her three-year old son had gotten into bed with her just to have some snuggles. I guess maybe the dad had woken him up in the process of going to work and he so Joseph bound both of them, blindfolded them. And she said in her mind she was like, just do whatever he wants because my son's here, I just need to keep the peace.

29:36 He, she said when when he bound her ankles, she kind of felt about it. She thought maybe he's just going to steal stuff out of the house or like, maybe he will kill us. I don't know. Yeah. Then he unbound her ankles and he's like, she said, I just knew exactly what was coming. And she said she'd just lay there like silently let what happened happened because her son was lying like. Well, she doesn't know where he was, whether he'd removed him out of the. Room. I don't think he had so. But she didn't know like, was my son OK?

30:10 Like was he still alive? Didn't know he. This was one of the households where he stayed and cooked himself a meal. Yeah. And she just had to lie there for over an hour. He never came back to her, I don't think, but. I think yeah, it would. Have been hours until she was able to. I don't know, it feels safe. I don't know, it feels safe enough to be able to move and do something about. Whatever saying she literally just counted to 60 like over and over in her head trying to count like so how long have I waited for to make sure he's gone and listening out to make sure to see And then she'd like hear him in the kitchen.

30:41 Then she'd start again and like, Oh my God, because she's like if I wait 10 minutes and of silence and I think he's gone. But he used to, he would be able to walk and get through places like so stealth like that. You would think he's not there and he would be. Yeah. Oh, that's see that goes towards that terror like the people would be feeling. Oh my God. Yeah. As the rapes sort of were progressing, one of the detectives who was an investigator at the time, it was she was a woman named Carol Daly.

31:12 So she investigated 27 of his, of his crimes. She said we knew that he was ready to kill. Like, they could see the escalation of the rapes as well. They were becoming more violent, more graphic, more like intense. And they just knew the next step was murder. And lo and behold, I think, you know, not that long after they'd sort of come to this conclusion. A couple of weeks later, he, he committed his first murder.

31:46 Was his first murder one where there was a wife and there was a couple? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so another, I guess we need to probably say as well, he evaded capture for over 40 years. So he's perpetrating like these 13 murders. He's these rapes, countless burglaries. And so over the years, many detectives you know had held the case and it was passed on and passed back and. So all in different areas too, they'd be investigating as that's why I ended up with so many names. That's it. Because different areas were investigating and back then they weren't so much communicating, I guess in a central database of sorts.

32:24 That's of kind of going, oh, this is the same case as the same person and perpetrating these crimes in multiple places. It was basically like this area who was known as this because that he was operating there, but over in a few towns over, you know, he was known as something else and perpetrating the crimes there and that the detectives there weren't necessarily communicating to know. Oh, hang on a second. You've got the same guy we have. It wasn't until one of them, I believe, put a few. Together this detective Paul holds is that right he sort of came to to have to be able to see a few commonalities between all of these different cases and be like oh this is interesting.

33:02 So a few things that he identified, it was always single story houses. Yes, he parked his car in a strategic place in order to be able to get out quickly if he needed to, but never close enough to the house that his vehicle would be identified or associated. We used to ride a bike too. Yeah, at times or sometimes he also went on foot. Yeah, Yeah, yes. I mean, I guess he had a lot of a lot of different ways of escaping depending on where whereabouts he was perpetrating. Yeah, I think Paul Holds took over the case in 1994.

33:39 So by this stage the crimes had sort of stopped. Well, in that stage too, I guess DNA became possible, whereas back when he was perpetrating his crimes in the 70s and 80s, DNA wasn't even a thing. There was something that I didn't get a lot of information on. And you probably can answer this more more correctly than what I was listening to kind of going, OK, I think I get what they're saying, but something about that he prior to even DNA coming into play, they could test certain things. Yep. And that it turned out that this, whoever he was, Yep, he fell into this very small bracket of the of the population who were a non secretive non.

34:17 Secretive, Yeah. What does that mean? So a non secretive, so body fluids. So a non secretor is a person. So it make 15 to 25% of the population are non secretive. So it's not a tiny percentage by any chance, but it is in the minority. So it certainly narrows a pool of people, but it's basically where your body fluids don't secrete antigens that are characteristic of your blood group, right. So most people or I guess between what is it 85 and 7075 and 85% of the population, when you secrete body fluids, there are antigens in those fluids.

34:52 So this can be saliva, sweat, whatever else. But as I said, 15 to 25% of the population don't actually secrete these antigens in their body fluids. So you can't pinpoint what blood group he was. No, if if they found blood they would be able. To yeah, but no. But from any other, from his semen, yeah, that would be left in the at the scene, yeah, they wouldn't be able to get any of that information. The, The interesting thing about this case is that by the time they found him and they got to him and they were able to look into DNA because obviously we'd come, you know, many, many, many, many years down the track.

35:33 Yeah, a lot of the evidence from all of his rape. So the semen that was found and kept was all destroyed because the statute of limitations in the in California meant that they could take years. I thought it was seven. It's like not long at all, whether whether it's seven or ten especially. We know about rape victims and how long it takes for them to be able to feel comfortable, to come forward. Yeah, that's. Bullshit. Yeah, it is absolute bullshit. I don't know whether that's still the case now, whether the statute of limitations has changed.

36:01 I didn't look into that. I don't feel, I feel like he wasn't able to be, Yeah, he was definitely not able to be like charged with the rapes, I feel. In No, he he wasn't no, he, no, he wasn't convicted of any of the rapes because. Because of that statute of limitations. But he was convicted of 11 murders. Yes, but we can get into that in a minute. Yeah. Yeah. So some more evidence that this detective sort of started putting together was that his shoe size was size 9. So that's a pretty small male foot really, is it?

36:34 No, I think it's like, oh, I think your female feet are like it's like a seven or eight. It's probably average, isn't it? Is it a men's shoe? Sizes to me like A10 seems big. OK, no, I don't look, I don't know. I'm just going by maybe yours that. I know your boys have got massive feet, yeah. Maybe, yeah, I don't know, it just to me that seems small, but. So I would have said. What did they say that? Oh, that seems like what I was going to say. You know what they say? Small shoes, small feet.

37:06 Yeah. Obviously the fact that he was a non secretor. He also would have these catch phrases that he would whisper or whimper to his victims as he was raping them or between rapes. He would say. He would speak disgusting. He would say things like I just need food and money for my van. Oh Yep, he said that in nearly every rape he perpetrated. Did he? Even own a van. Well, this is the thing. The detectives think it was a red herring and he was actually throwing. So he there were a few other bits and pieces that he would say to really try and throw his victims off.

37:45 And they were red herrings in the end, Yeah. Right. He'd stutter. Yes, I did hear that one, yeah. Even though he didn't in every day, no he he didn't have a stutter, he would cry. Like actually cry tears. What? And he'd mention his mother and he'd say, mum, I'm really sorry, I won't do this again. Oh, my mother. Although some of them said they thought he said mummy when he actually might have said Bonnie and Bonnie was an ex-girlfriend. Yeah, now Bonnie's an interesting one. Yeah. So Bonnie was engaged to him.

38:26 So this was pre him marrying. Oh my God, I've just forgotten his wife's name. How to lose her surname Sharon? Hold on. Oh, God, Sharon. Thank you. So prior to marrying Sharon, he was engaged to this Bonnie and he was awful to her, so much so she called off the engagement. He then went to her house, essentially kidnapped her, put a gun to her head and said we're going to Nevada, to Vegas to get married. And he wasn't arrested. For no, I don't think she ever her her version of events now and she's a in her 70s I think now late 70s.

39:11 Her thing now is I just needed to be away from him like she, she said. I knew he was bad, but she didn't know he was this bad. It's not like she could have foreshadowed what he was going. To do and there were some really shit news articles that came out when this all sort of blew up and they knew who he was. And when they found out and the the headlines sort of blamed Bonnie almost of like sort of saying, you know, like it was the trigger for him to start raping and which it's not Bonnie's fault.

39:39 Oh God no. And so those headlines were horrendous that that you know that you know her her actions of calling off the engagement meant that other women were died victims of this so raped. Let's just put that out there. Bonnie escaped a domestic violence situation. And good on and well done to Bonnie. And yes, OK, in hindsight, if she'd gone to the police, you know, things, he may have been, he may, but it wouldn't have stopped what he was gonna. Become so people would have done on her. There would have probably been a slap on the wrist for his first offence and nothing would have come of.

40:11 It exactly. He still would have perpetrated this crime. He lost his job as a police officer at one stage anyway. It's not like that stopped him. Yeah. So that's it. You know, he might have just lost his job as a police officer earlier, but that's all it probably would have done. I I dare say. Because he, because Joseph pled guilty to all of the charges that were brought against him. Eventually there was no trial, but the victims were allowed to provide a victim impact statement. Mm hmm. And Bonnie wanted to be able to state her case in that, but because she wasn't technically a victim of his, she wasn't allowed to.

40:47 But she teamed up with an actual victim who read a statement on her behalf in court. So this, this victim, I think the victim was actually the, oh, don't quote me on this. I think she might have been the mother of somebody who died at Joseph's hand. So she provided her own victim impact statement. And then the judge had said to the victims, you can, you can say whatever you want. There is no limit on the amount of time or content of what you say. And she then read out a statement that Bonnie had had written.

41:24 I love it too, like girl power. And, and Bonnie stood there next to her while she was giving her victim impact statement and watched the video. She stares him down. She does not break her. Her contact, eye contact with him and the look on her face. I'm like, Yep, you go, girl. Survivors. Survivors, not victims. Yeah. That's awesome. I'm going to go search that and look at that. That just that is awesome. Yeah. Because this is the thing when you don't let him get it. Yeah. No, this is He's the monster.

41:55 Yeah, when he was arrested, though. This is just. Oh my God. God, again. How many palliative years? Apparently the day before he was arrested because the police were surveilling him for lots and lots and lots of, you know, days and weeks and months and years really leading up to his eventual arrest. And the day before he was arrested. He's like hooning on a motorcycle down like the freeway, apparently speeding. And he was also, oh, there was something else he was doing that was quite sprightly and whatever, right?

42:28 And then the day he's arrested, he's like, like, all hunched over. Yeah, yeah, just trying to gain sympathy. Yeah, although of something that the brother-in-law did comment on and said he definitely had lost a lot of weight. But again, did he lose weight in in jail by like refusing food to make sure he looked that way? Or was being in jail impacting him and therefore losing weight? Well, I hope so. Either way, who cares? Yeah, but it's yeah, he, he definitely, you know, changed a lot between the arrest to then sitting in in the courtroom.

43:01 Absolutely. Yeah, he's a what? An absolute piece of shit. Oh. Absolute piece of shit, yeah. I I mean. They don't get more awful, I don't reckon. Pardon, I don't know that they get much more awful. No, they they don't. And that normal prolific like it's just insane. Yeah. So he was arrested on the 25th of April in 2018. Should we talk about how that came about? Yes, this is what I'm fascinated by this, this really. And it really blows open so many other possibilities for other cold cases. Totally, Yeah.

43:31 I mean, this had been essentially a cold case for all of those years funding. He actually stopped committing. Crimes 1970198680. Six. Yeah, but do we know why he stopped? They don't know, although. So his final victim was a woman named Janelle Lisa Cruz. I say woman. She was 18 years old. She was a girl. He raped her, and then he bludgeoned her to death with a pipe wrench. So it was the most, like, absolutely brutal and gruesome attack. Yeah. And there is an inference that maybe he almost got caught doing that and that was enough to get him to stop because there had been an instance, I can't remember which, which case it was or which victim it was, where he'd almost got in court and he then had a break.

44:23 Well, that was, that was 1977, Yeah. And he fell and he, he, they, they absolutely said because though he's being chased down and I don't know why, but this is God. So I get this visual of point break when he climbs the fence and jumps, you know, and they're like second he hits his knee, right. I get that visual of the of him running off and he jumped something and they said he had to have injured himself when he jumped and fell this in this, but he did get away. But and because there was an interview.

44:54 He wasn't he caught unaware as in some somebody came home or or interrupted what he was doing. He wasn't able to fully complete his ritual. I think so, yeah. And that they think that's why he ended up having that break. Oh. No, they reckon. Well, they say the break was either due to the fact of the injury right itself, but also quite possibly have like all fucked up here, like how am I going to avoid that next time, that kind of thing. But it was also because he ended up they ended up going to hospitals kind of finally trying to chase down because he would have would have had to have gone to hospital to get this checked out.

45:24 And there was a particular person who they did sort of think it was and they pinned him down to kind of go, is this, you know, was it you like because he rocked up to hospital with an injury and but it wasn't him in the end, but they he definitely could have had would have had to have gone to hospital for this injury. But he probably went like drove hours and went somewhere else like he was that knowledgeable about how they he would have known they would have come looking for him at a house that's.

45:48 Right, exactly. He wasn't silly. So maybe because it was such a close call, that's what caused it as yeah, who knows. And because there's other ones where like the brother-in-law that was interviewed, he said, like when he looked at the dates and the layout, he was like, oh, he had a, there was a gap here where he didn't do any, any like for a month or two. And he's like, that's when we were moving. He was helping us move. Or once when one of his daughters was born, there was a gap of a few months.

46:10 Yeah, you think? Yeah. OK, so he was busy at nights and things or helping other people out and so he couldn't do his normal stalk and find his victim. Yeah. Interesting to see that perspective of someone like a family member to kind of go like the dates of like you know, when he didn't an attack. With that brother-in-law as well, he would show him these like handmade gold bullion bars that he'd made, like he'd meltdown, you know, what he'd stolen from houses. And that mean he, it's not like he stole great amounts of jewellery and stuff, but I guess across 120 burglaries you're gonna, you know, accumulating.

46:44 There and everything there and yeah, piece of necklace there and he smelt. It smelted it all down into these like handmade gold bullion and would show his brother-in-law and be like, hey, but the brother-in-law never asked where you got it, where he got it from or never asked questions. Is it because he didn't? Wanna know the answer? Oh yeah, me. There is a book he has written a book, the brother-in-law, which apparently you can't just get off of, off of Amazon called Killers Have Secrets. OK, so and he writes about the fact that he was in a lot of ways a normal bloke.

47:15 Yeah, well, he was in day-to-day life. He said you would never have picked that this was what he was doing, like he said there. Was how he got away with it, yeah. He said definitely like when he's white, when the him he's the wife and him split, then they separated that his sister just didn't want anything to do with him anymore, which I mean, that's, you know, most people who separate from someone that's not, you know, an indicator of oh, he must be killing and raping people. Yeah, absolutely. But there she was definitely like, Nah, Nah, I don't want anything to do with him.

47:40 But he he maintained a friendship with him as his brother-in-law. But he said eventually though, he got that he Joseph found these other mates who had who enjoyed fishing, which the brother-in-law didn't like fishing. So they sort of the friendship kind of just paid it out. OK. But like, that's just a normal kind of relationship of, of a friend of a relationship like that when you're when you're not, you're not. Well, they're married technically, but they went together, yeah, though, you know, with his, with his sister.

48:07 So there's. No obligation there. They just kind of yeah, he the I did say that the brother-in-law would also said that he would discuss these cases with him openly and bring up the East Area Rapist and bring up the Original Night Stalker and talk to him about. It how weird, Yeah. Creep. Yeah, what a creep. But the brother-in-law never suspected anything. Not from all accounts, from what he says, no. And he said because he did say in interviews outright that if he ever suspected that he was, he would have immediately gone to the police.

48:44 He would never have approached him, but he would absolutely have gone to the police. So the way he was presented himself, I believe him. He seemed to be very credible. Yeah. I don't know. And whether his wife, you know, ex-wife knew anything, I don't know. I feel like she had to have known, maybe not knowing that he was, you know, Eurons or that he was the Golden State Killer. But I think she had to have known something was. It wasn't a happy marriage like you know, like it was obviously. It's obviously doing things that she was like, where are where are you at night?

49:19 What are you having affairs? Maybe she was thinking that, I don't know. Yeah. Oh, where's all this shit coming from? Why have you got Yeah, random. I mean, I'm assuming he hid everything that he brought back, but. The the one thing that the brother-in-law said in an interview was that that really like kind of made me go, oh, that's really eerie. He reckoned now looking back on everything that obviously this man is a psychopath of he'll he'll be I'm sure they'll have psychologist looking at him of like, what?

49:43 What is he? Where where does this come from? Yeah, but also he said he has to have learnt how to behave normal. And so his his behaviour of being normal was learnt behaviour. Oh. OK, I kind of go, yeah, like that. So he's like innately he's a monster, a monster. And he's had to learn how to behave like a normal person. That's that's really interesting. I guess it would have to be because only a psychopath could perpetrate these kinds of. Crimes. Did you read much about him as a child? No, I didn't.

50:14 So the only little bit of information I was able to find out was that he was abandoned by his own father as a child and his father went and started a new family and named his new kids the same name has his old kids. No? And that's got to fuck with you. That is so fucked. Up where you become a rapist and a murderer, but. That is so fucked up. Well, I've actually got a family story about this about something similar, and it really messed with the person. And had the same thing. I mean, not, not well, listen.

50:45 OK. So yeah, yeah, my dad's side of the family. So my dad's grandparents had a daughter, and they named her Elsa. Yeah. And she died, I think of caught death before she was one or at around the age of one. Yeah. They then went on to have another daughter. Yeah, about a year later, and they named her Elsa. Oh, no. Yep. And the second Elsa definitely had. I have no doubt in my mind that impacted her. So she knew that too. Like she grew up knowing that she was Elsa Number. Two. Yep, like you're a replacement for someone.

51:30 So like, think about Joseph. Yeah. He's then being replaced by what? His dad's just trying and trying again. Yeah, you know it. Didn't work with that family I'll start again. Let's. Start again. See how that goes. I mean, that'd fuck with you. I didn't. Think people did that? Oh, I know. It's so weird. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, it's really full on. Really, really full on. Yeah, but let's get back to how we got caught, yeah? How we got caught. So the detective decided in his absolute wisdom, and I think he'd, he'd read about other detectives trying to solve cases in the same way, but he used DNA that they were able to obtain from Joseph and uploaded it into a genealogy website.

52:20 So I think it's called Jed Match. It's not one that's very well known, but think along the lines of ancestry.com or 23andMe where you upload adna profile into, into the website and it gives you a bit of an idea of like who you're related to or where you've come from. And So what they what this detective did was upload, I guess, a fake profile with Joseph's DNA. Yeah, not linked to knowing that's the name. Oh. Not linked to knowing that's name, they just all they knew was this was. This was the JS KS DNA.

52:55 But not knowing who this person was at all. Yeah. So within. Well, this is, according to the detective, within a day they had something like 1000 matches, and they were able to narrow that down South into 25 family trees. OK, so there's a lot of data here, right? They were able to narrow it down via Joseph's great, great, great grandparents. So that's how far they had to go back. Wow. They then went down those. Went down those red. Cars. And they found five males who were living in California with the right age and the right, yeah, right age and men and in the right geographical area, right living in the right geographical area.

53:49 And one of those five males was Joseph DeAngelo. Wow. So they. But Joseph DeAngelo never actually uploaded his DNA to one of these ancestry.com things like or, you know, he never did that. He was, it was fire. Some other family relative, yeah, who had uploaded their DNA that connected it to them. So it was a third cousin, I think, right? Yeah. Like Jeezy must hate that third cousin, Yeah. Or maybe it was a second. It was, it was not a first cousin. Yeah, either a second or a third cousin. But yeah, imagine be like, oh, hi, sorry, there was me.

54:24 Sorry. Hi, it was me. I uploaded my DNA 'cause. I'm where I came from, like. May I tell you an ancestry? Have you ever done one of those 23andMe or? I haven't, but my father has because he was adopted. Yeah. And so. He wanted to find out his well, he's like in his mind, he wants to find out where his who his mum was and things and who his dad was. Yeah, she really just didn't come back with much. No, it was nothing overly. I guess in that generation maybe it's less common. Yeah, I don't know, because my mum's done it as well.

54:52 And what really, I think what really pissed him off was that it came out with more with her and she's been in touch with relatives of hers, but he's, it just really didn't lead anywhere. So we're kind of like, again, we just started, he started the whole family on his own. We don't know where he came. From He's the founding father, Founding father. Yeah, the poor bloke, he's. Yeah. But you know, so I have it. But it's so interesting finding out like your heritage and, you know, because we always thought there was not knowing from my dad being, you know, being adopted, we don't know what his heritage is.

55:21 And I was kind of like, is there at one stage we thought there was a lot of Italian there. I've been told in the past that I might have a bit of Italian in my blood, you know, or other people have commented about varying other traits that we have that might be a bit of something else. Yeah. And it's turns out, no, just, you know, England, Ireland, the typical stuff. So yeah, that was pretty interesting. Yeah. The same as my mom. And, you know, like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, same, same. Yeah, We. I've never done it and I'm really skeptical to be honest with you.

55:52 Yeah, not because I'm skeptical about the process as in, you know, the way it happens. And I would be happy to find family members potentially, but yeah, what else are they doing with my genetic information? And I know they're not looking at like in these, they're looking at genealogy. They're not looking at your like, genetic makeup, right. But I'm like, oh, it just, I don't know. Yeah, what's I was going to ask you that. So in this. Situation a crime and then I'm in a database. What's the, the ethical stuff of this, of the way they've gone about this?

56:22 Yeah. Well, how? What are your thoughts on that, on the ethics of it? Well, but I mean they obviously sell your data, but it's de identified. But who's to say that like an Ashley Madison breach doesn't happen? And. That's a whole another episode. I think that's actually on the list. That was one of my. Yeah, because I find them really fascinating. Blows my mind that. Yeah, Yeah. I don't know. I'm skeptical. Yeah, I mean, I figure, I mean I'm a law abiding citizen maybe and I so I'd kind of like I'm a bit naive to the fact of like, well, I don't care who has my DNA then for that, but.

57:00 Yeah, but then like, what if your kid does something or like. But then they shouldn't. Yeah, I know. No, I know. I know. It's it's not even that. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I do. I do get what you're saying because apparently there are because of this case and this blowing this all open and it becomes an ethical issue. I think there's certain, I think it was ancestry.com is one of them that they, they don't the like the FBI and that sort of stuff can't access their database, but there are others that stop them from.

57:28 Creating these fake profiles then? Or is it legally they're not allowed to? I don't know that because there's been other cases that have been, you know, solved by doing very similar things. And I know there's particular people out there who are like, literally, this is their job. They will research the genealogy to find a criminal, so it's an interesting one. Yeah, I don't. Maybe the laws haven't quite matched up. We've caught up with them. Yeah, with that yet? Yeah. I think it's along the lines of, you know, like I find like the IVF, it's another interesting thing of like, you know, the ethics around IVF and where and those sort of things and embryos and yeah, where they all go and that sort.

58:02 Of stuff, yeah, the laws, kind of. The laws aren't behind, I mean, not as much. This all happened in 2020, 2019-2020, so 2018020180. That's right. He was arrested in 2018. Yeah. So it's only sort of like six years ish ago. So maybe their laws haven't caught up yet. I actually don't. Know, yeah. Interesting, but he was sentenced to 11 but also the other. The other side in terms of him being caught and ethics around this as well. So they they basically pinned him on this thing. They found the OK, this is the guy they because they looked at a couple of different people who obviously related.

58:36 Yeah. And what was like, no, this is our guy. But to be able to prove that they then followed him around and waited and waited and waited until he discarded something that they could get DNA off. Yeah. Took it out of the bin. Yeah. Unbeknownst to him entirely. Yep. Tested it. Bang. That's our guy. And then went and arrested him. So again, I mean, that's done. That's not unheard of, it all for cops to do, but I still find that's another bit of a privacy breach too. And I think. All around, really, because you've discarded it, you've discarded it, it's out in public, you've left it there willingly.

59:08 Yeah, I think that's how they sort of get around it. But yeah, they got it, got his DNA for tissue and it matched. So there were, there was some DNA from one of the murder scenes and a couple of the rape scenes I think that they still had access to. Yeah. And they were able to link him up. And that was one of the things that really proved that the Visalia Ransacker, the Original Night Stalker and the East Area Rapist were all the same person. And I think that's where there was an author of a book, Michelle McNamee, and she was the one that really like, I think pinned like grouped all them together.

59:44 She was amazing. But, and I know if you knew much about her, just trying to find the name of her book, it was called No, that wasn't her book called Frozen Time. It was someone else's. I can't remember the name of her book, but her book was is amazing. People have actually said who have read the whole thing and I've read snippets of it, that it's terrifying to read. That's how good of an author she was, right? But she was very, she'd done so much research into this and had and had like cracked open a fair bit of parts of this case to be able to marry up that this was the same person doing these but with different names.

1:00:16 And she was such a huge part of it. But she ended up, I believe, talking of cancer not long before she finished her book. And her beautiful husband stepped in and finished it for her. So wow. Yeah, I. Think she literally died like two months before he was arrested. Yes. Yeah. She didn't quite get there. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. But you have a read of that book, Michelle Mcnamash. OK, I will. From all accounts of what I've looked at, that book's really incredible if you're up for a Horror Story really like.

1:00:46 I don't know that I am stripping you after all this. This is, you know, they sometimes, as you were saying before, sometimes these cases can shake you and this is definitely one of them. I have a habit of going to bed at night listening to real the same just calms me so but this one. Do not listen to that recording of of his voice in the to that victim right before bedtime. Do not. You are not. Sleep do not no. So in the end he was convicted of first degree. Sorry. He was charged with first degree murder, 13 counts, 13 counts of kidnapping, and he was actually sentenced to 12 consecutive life sentences without the possibility of parole, plus eight years.

1:01:29 Yeah. And the reason that it was only 12 was because that was the maximum allowed penalty in the state of California at the time. So they. Yeah. He ain't never getting out. Yeah, he's never getting out. I mean, consecutive life sentences. Yeah. And without the possibility of parole plus eight years, there was no way he was he was getting out. So he'll be in bars for the rest of his life. I mean, he's in his eighty or he'd be close to 80 now. And, you know, let's hope he lives a long and healthy and horrific life in prison.

1:02:04 Let's hope so. That's that's the only thing we can really hope for in this. What a absolute piece of shit. Absolute piece of shit. These poor victims look out, you know, when we decided to do this true true crime podcast, Oh my God, true and true. Why did we do that to ourselves? This true crime podcast? I think one of the things that you and I both want to do is pay respect to those victims. And one of the reasons that we like to discuss these things is to keep victims at the forefront of people's minds.

1:02:36 And, you know, we never want to lose sight of that. This, this piece of shit needs to rot. And, you know, may his victims rest peacefully. Let their voices speak loudly. I mean, you know, we've got to celebrate those, the, the fact that they're survivors out there. There's also those that have not survived this. Obviously there are they're murdered victims, but those that have survived are incredibly strong. The fact that two of them have paired together to get a story across, you know, it's just awesome.

1:03:13 Love it go girls. I just that we women are strong and they some an asshole and absolute monster like this will not stop their voices. That's it. Yeah. I think that's a good note to end it on. Yeah. We do have a bit of a request of everyone if we can. Please, please, we would really love it if you could follow our podcast in your podcasting app. So for Apple, it's on the Purple podcasting app in Spotify where you can also watch us in video. If you can follow our channel, that really, really helps us get our name out there and, you know, helps us be a little bit more visible to people who are searching for true crime podcasts, as it were.

1:04:00 Yeah. And do you reckon we need to give ourselves a little bit of a pat on the back I. Think so. I think we're we're doing bloody well. I mean, jeez, I mean, this is episode we're we're recording episode 12, but we've released episode seven. I think it was this week. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, after seven episodes, we're doing well. We're doing really well. We've had lots and lots of people like come in and join us. We can see that so many people, and there are people from all around the. World who are tuning in nice of like the countries everyone's from It's insane.

1:04:30 Oh, welcome to everybody. Yes. Welcome and please like, yeah, please subscribe. It really, really, really does help us. So having like having people listen is fantastic. If you can subscribe, it's even better. So thank you everybody for listening. And next week we are bringing you This is an Australian Story. It's the case of Melissa Kadik. And this is an interesting one. It's a little bit open-ended. And yeah, we'll see where that case takes us. But thank you everybody for joining us on another episode of Two Crime Besties.

1:05:06 And we can't wait to bring you another episode next week. Absolutely stay curious. Crime besties. Bye.

1:05:31 OK. Oh God, are we ready to start? No. God. We're fine. That's fine. You're you're gonna you'll, you'll be great. No, you'll be great. You'll be. You're always great. No, you are. You are. Love you.