Episode 54 - The Butcher of Delhi: Chandrakant Jha

0:15 Here we are, two crime besties for another episode.

0:17 How are you today, Meg? Hey, Emma, I'm good, I'm good.

0:21 We're here. We've got school holidays going

0:24 where it's evening. We've had wine.

0:26 We should be right. A good yeah.

0:28 Oh, if nothing else, we've got the Dutch courage behind us.

0:31 So to keep it going. So that's, that's something,

0:35 yeah, then. We'll get it going.

0:36 We'll be good. We're.

0:37 Good. It'll be fine.

0:40 Yeah, we've had to alter our schedule this week thanks to

0:43 school holidays and different bits and pieces, so.

0:45 Kids get in the way of everything, don't they?

0:47 Don't they though, steal all the fun?

0:49 Unbelievable. Yep.

0:50 Everything's about them. Oh, it's totally yeah.

0:55 Yeah, but I love it. Too.

0:57 It is great. It is great.

0:58 I actually love the school holidays.

1:00 I love having that extra time to spend with them.

1:02 Took the boys into the city today and had lunch with Peter

1:06 and then we went for a bit of a wander around DFO Southwarf and

1:10 they got new school shoes. Can you even believe how much

1:13 money you spend on school shoes in a year school?

1:15 Shoes freaking kill me. Like, and they're just runners.

1:18 It's not like our kids, our kids don't go to a school where they

1:20 need to wear leather shoes or anything.

1:22 That'll probably be cheaper, to be really honest.

1:24 They're probably cheaper, yeah, 'cause Oh my God, the whole

1:27 thing with the sneakers, it's just, it's so expensive.

1:31 It's so expensive. And now one of my kids is in

1:33 men's sizing. So close.

1:35 My mind that's. Like size, next level.

1:37 I know his foot is now bigger than mine and he's 11.

1:42 He's gonna have huge. Fate.

1:44 I think so. Yeah, I think so.

1:46 And it's gonna cost a fortune. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:49 Oh, God. But they were look really cool

1:50 shoes. They were cool.

1:51 They were cool, yeah. Good sales at this time of year

1:53 or no? Yeah, no, they were good.

1:55 I mean, they're still sprouting the end of season sale, end of

1:58 financial financial sale even though it's well.

2:00 Part of financial. Yeah, I'll take it though.

2:03 Yeah, yeah. I don't like paying full price

2:05 for anything. Oh God, no, I refuse.

2:07 No, I'll search for that shit, you know, far and wide on the

2:10 Internet to find it cheaper somewhere.

2:12 Yeah. Insane.

2:13 Yeah. Yeah, although when I was

2:15 growing up, my best friend, her grandma was very, I'm going to

2:20 say frugal, but she was very careful with her money.

2:23 Yeah. And she, but she used to do some

2:26 really dumb things, like she would go to a different shop to

2:30 buy, say, eggs because they're like $0.12 cheaper.

2:33 And I'm like, but you're not even as a kid, I'm like, you

2:36 would have spent more than $0.12 on petrol to get there.

2:39 That's not actually a saving. I was legitimately this

2:42 afternoon just sitting down going I should do a Costco run.

2:46 And then I kind of started out, what do I need?

2:47 Like, you know, and put my my things down my my usuals that I

2:50 get them. What am I low on and what am I

2:51 fine for? And I'm like, is it actually

2:55 going to be cheaper if I go to Costco like.

2:58 I feel like for the kids, snacky things that is.

3:00 Let's see, my kids are so fucking fussy that I'm likely to

3:03 get there and go. Not nothing.

3:05 This. It's not exactly.

3:06 It's not what they're gonna want.

3:07 Yeah. Yeah.

3:08 So I'm, I'm actually tempted to not, I've got, I've written down

3:13 all my prices on my normal things 'cause I just find

3:16 sometimes my things that I get are like the nappy sand stuff

3:19 for you know. And oh, that is definitely

3:21 cheaper at. Cost.

3:22 It is, isn't it? Yeah, definitely.

3:23 You can never get it that cheap at the no even on half.

3:26 Price, this is it. Even on special, it's not gonna

3:28 get that Yeah, cheap. So yeah, I think that's what I

3:29 need to get. And the other thing that you

3:31 can't get it at all is unless you do the market thingy or

3:33 whatever is the smelly ball things that you're in your

3:36 washing stuff. I love those.

3:39 Things I never use them before. I don't use them like you don't

3:42 need as much as they say. So they do last me ages.

3:44 But yeah, I'm like, I do. I'm probably, I'm not like

3:48 desperate for them, but while I'm there I should get one of

3:51 those stockers and yeah, yeah, but I'm still like the other

3:54 things I've got on my list. I'm like, I reckon it's probably

3:56 much of A muchness between bullies and in Costco.

3:59 Yeah. Then is it worth going all that

4:01 way? Yeah.

4:02 For one thing, that might be cheaper.

4:03 Yeah, no, definitely not. Yeah.

4:05 Definitely 'cause that's the nightmare of a.

4:06 And then also, I was gonna say, and then also the mental trauma

4:10 of actually going there. It's the nightmare.

4:12 It's such, it's always a nightmare.

4:14 It doesn't matter. I feel like with other shops, if

4:16 you go early it's fine. You know you can get in and get

4:19 out before the crowds come. Yeah, at Costco it's shit

4:23 literally from the minute they open to the minute they close.

4:27 Yeah, yeah. And the car.

4:28 PARK, OH. Horrific.

4:30 That just drives me horrific. Can't handle that car park.

4:33 It's. Terrible.

4:34 Yeah, it really is terrible. Yeah.

4:37 Oh no, I so I'm just I don't know will I do it or not?

4:40 And I feel like, I feel like you should.

4:42 I actually feel like you should just to stock up on those.

4:44 Yeah, I'll go. And when I don't have any kids.

4:47 Yeah, that's right, because dragging the kids around Costco

4:50 is a. Oh God, that's, I haven't done

4:54 it yet. And I'm like, yeah, thank God.

4:56 Because I think it's one of those things where I'll walk

4:58 around that they'll be like desperate, but I'm gonna, I'm

5:00 gonna want that. I want that, I'll eat it, I'll

5:02 eat it or whatever. And you just know that you're

5:04 taking home fuck ton of something they're never gonna

5:07 touch. Again, had an experience like at

5:09 Costco, and she bought this massive packet of cheese balls.

5:13 Yeah. And her kids, and I'm talking it

5:17 was like this giant tub of them. Yeah.

5:20 Her kids each ate 1. So two ways.

5:22 Shit. And then she said to me, she's

5:27 like, do you want these? I'm like, no, I don't want them

5:29 #1 where the hell am I going to put this giant jar of bloody

5:34 cheese balls? Yeah, but also I'm like, if your

5:36 kids don't like them, I don't think my kids will work.

5:39 Yeah. So yeah, good luck to you if I'm

5:41 trying to find someone who wants to take that.

5:43 Absolutely. We actually started a I'll See

5:46 Eaters pantry at my work. Oh, tell me more.

5:49 Yeah, so like what we do is like, so if you, you know, even

5:52 just a packet from woollies, let alone a big massive packet of

5:54 something from Costco, you go, you sort of go, I think my kids

5:58 are going to eat that. And then you get it home and

6:00 they have one and they're like, Nah, I don't like it.

6:02 And you're like, crap, now I've got a whole box of them I've got

6:04 to get rid of. So yeah, bring it in, put it in

6:06 the pantry. And it's a give and take system.

6:08 Like, you know, you might see something that then someone can

6:10 come in and just take one out of that box, take them home and try

6:14 it with their kid and go, oh, my kid did like it.

6:16 Now go to Woolies and buy the whole pack.

6:17 The whole pack. You know, like, yeah, this is

6:19 just for staff, no. No, not anyone.

6:22 Anyone. All, all Yeah, the whole school

6:24 kind of thing. Like we.

6:25 Yeah. So you just.

6:26 Start. Yeah, Come and pop your stuff in

6:28 as you have things that you've tried.

6:29 You've got a packet of something that you're like, now you need

6:31 to get rid of that, Yeah and yeah.

6:33 And everyone else, just like you can just take one of takes as

6:35 much of you like, who cares? Like kind of stuff no one's

6:38 watching, but like you're yeah, 'cause if it's something your

6:40 kid does, like, yeah, take the box, whatever.

6:41 But if it's something that you're like, Oh no, we wouldn't

6:43 mind trying that. We've been eyeing that off but

6:45 didn't wanna buy a whole packet. Take one, go home, see if they

6:48 like. It the best.

6:49 Yeah, 'cause we're just over the whole and we, a lot of the

6:51 parents, we're all talking about the fact that, you know, we are

6:52 kids of fussy eaters. Yeah, yeah, it's a good one.

6:56 Try I love. That idea, people should take

6:58 that on. Yeah, it's.

6:59 Awesome. There's always stuff in there

7:01 and there's always people taking from it.

7:03 Love it. Works really well, yes.

7:04 Yeah, you'll bet. Yes, good one, love.

7:08 It love it. I've had quite a large week.

7:14 Have you? No, no, you.

7:15 Well, a particular night, yeah. What are the nights?

7:19 You have had a week and 1/2 that is for damn.

7:22 So we're actually recording this a little bit late because last

7:25 Friday, which would be a normal recording day, I had my 40th

7:28 birthday party. Yay.

7:31 I mean, it was, it was great. I actually had the best night.

7:34 I really had such an amazing time.

7:37 You know, it's it's rare that you get all of the people that

7:39 you love in one. Room, yeah, and.

7:41 It's nowadays, it's maybe for a milestone birthday.

7:45 That's about it, really. Yeah.

7:48 So loved it. Absolutely loved it.

7:50 Not before. So my brother came over because

7:56 we needed a bit of muscle and we, I also needed his decorating

8:00 expertise. He's good at stuff like that.

8:03 So he helped me do the balloon Garland.

8:04 So he spent like ages pumping up all these balloons doing this

8:08 balloon Garland. It was great.

8:09 And then we'll still, I know he's got way more patience than

8:12 I do. I don't have the hair and hair.

8:15 I don't have the patience, no. I think I put 2 balloons in and

8:18 that was enough. Yeah, I was like, oh fuck.

8:20 This shit, I'm not doing it. I have 0 patience for things

8:23 like that. Yeah.

8:24 Whereas Matt will go and go and go until the job's done.

8:26 Yeah, sorry, hyper fixation. You'd better bloody be

8:31 listening, by the way. Yeah, he did a good job.

8:33 Did a. Compressive.

8:34 Yeah. But then we decided, while Matt

8:38 was here, obviously use the muscle to move the furniture

8:40 because we move stuff out of our living room into the garage just

8:43 so that we could have a bit of extra space.

8:45 A bar obviously had a bar brought in, had some furniture

8:50 brought in and when Peter and Matt moved the couch, they

8:56 moved. I had the vacuum cleaner out

8:58 because everyone knows underneath the couch is the most

9:01 disgusting area of your house when you.

9:03 Have kids body oh I. Just don't even know when the

9:06 last time I cleaned under there was Well, it was the most

9:09 disgusting thing. I I was.

9:11 If it wasn't my brother, yeah, would have been so.

9:13 Embarrassed I've done that with like where my couch had a little

9:18 a defect kind of thing and I had to get someone in to fix it and

9:20 I literally I had the vacuum on hand going, Oh my God, this is

9:23 going to be embarrassing. Like as soon as he lifts that

9:25 couch up, I know is what's going on here.

9:28 But he said to me, guys, don't worry, everyone's is the same.

9:30 Yeah, so. But like, yeah, you're

9:32 mortified. Yeah, anyway, I wasn't mortified

9:35 because at least it was just. Yeah, but yeah.

9:37 I had the vacuum cleaner out anyway so we could quickly get

9:40 the job done. Anyway, when they picked up and

9:42 put, they sort of moved the couch because it comes apart, so

9:45 they had to kind of move it away from the wall so they could get

9:47 it apart. And when Peter put his side of

9:50 the couch down, he put it on the head of the vacuum cleaner.

9:53 And so I put my fingers underneath the couch, pulled the

9:57 head of the vacuum cleaner up, and then the whole couch came

10:01 down on my fingers. Because, you know, it's not.

10:03 It's a. Floor.

10:03 It's a floor to the floor. Well, the front is open, but I

10:07 was holding it on the side, which is to the floor.

10:09 It's a wooden solid wood panel. So I went Oh dear.

10:15 Oh. I'm sure that's what you said.

10:16 A little bit. Yeah, I can imagine.

10:18 I I actually like. I know this sounds really

10:20 dramatic, but I actually nearly passed out.

10:22 Oh, so much no. I 100% yes.

10:24 And then anyway, I looked at my fingers and I'm like, oh, I

10:29 think they're broken. So anyway, Peter's like, do you

10:33 want to go to emergency? I'm like, no, I'm not sitting in

10:35 emergency for. 4 hours for 5 minutes down the road from your

10:39 place though like. I didn't want to sit there for a

10:41 broken like fingers are fingers like what can they actually do?

10:45 So I went into some good. Painkillers.

10:47 Yeah, that would have been well, I actually might have had some

10:50 in the cupboard. Oh, OK, cool.

10:51 So. I actually had an I was an

10:55 interrupted sleep. My there was more of a

10:56 throbbing. Yeah, than anything anyway.

10:58 So the next morning GP appointment I was telling you

11:01 this. I got into the GP at 850, had

11:05 the X-ray at 9:00 AM. The GP saw me again at 9:10.

11:08 That's insane with the result already there.

11:12 That if that was with your kid, you would have been there for

11:14 hours and they would have been an absolute nightmare.

11:18 Like just no, that's that never happened.

11:22 Never. Was the universe saying, yeah,

11:24 I've got your back, we know this happened, but it's your 40th,

11:26 We'll get there. We'll get you there.

11:28 So the GP was like, yeah, they're fractured.

11:30 I'm like, yeah, I mean. Yeah, yeah.

11:34 Squished a bit of a crush fracture to one of them and so I

11:37 had to go and get these absolutely revolting looking

11:42 splints from the chemist before I could go and see the hand

11:46 surgeon on Monday. So anyway, I was like Oh no

11:51 worries, I'm just not going to wear the splints to my party

11:54 because. You said that to me.

11:56 I was like, there's oh, but they looked.

11:57 Terrible and I had to get outfit going on.

12:00 But to like to me, yeah, whole outfit thing's one one thing.

12:04 But you can't be in that amount of pain trying to drink.

12:08 Yeah, put the priorities like in place here.

12:11 Well, in the end I had to put them on because I bloody knocked

12:13 them at one point and I was I Well, it nearly made me vomit.

12:16 Yeah. So anyway, it's all good.

12:19 My fingers are broken. Four to six weeks and they'll be

12:21 fine. Don't know.

12:24 Where Ollie gets it, don't know. Nah, Nah, I don't.

12:27 Know poor accident prone little child.

12:31 Yeah, anyway, but the actual party was so much fun.

12:34 I had the best night. It was really, really good fun.

12:37 Good. I was eating McDonald's in bed

12:39 at 2:00 PM the next day. So that kind of gives you a bit

12:41 of an idea about how fun it was. I pulled a muscle on the dance

12:45 floor, yes. The next day, say, Meg's like,

12:48 oh, feeling it, feeling it. But it wasn't a hangover.

12:51 It was a pull muscle. Muscle in my stomach.

12:53 I love it, I love it. It's so good.

12:55 Oh God, Oh no. It was such a fun night.

12:58 The cocktails were on point. Yeah.

13:01 Did you have one of those cocktails where they put that,

13:03 like, bubble on top? No, that's rude.

13:06 They had one of those like little gum things.

13:08 It's like a bubble. But I was like, what do I do

13:11 with it? Do I pop it?

13:13 Do I suck in the cubes? I actually don't know.

13:17 You know, every time, like everyone else would come and go,

13:19 I got the bubble and I'm like, no.

13:22 I think you need every task for the bubble maybe, Maybe.

13:23 I wasn't. I was pretty different for the

13:25 drink rather. Than yeah like it's gonna take

13:28 longer to get my drink I don't want to fucking bubble thing

13:30 just take the. Spicy Mark, Thanks.

13:32 Yeah, yeah, that's what I was drinking most of the night.

13:35 Yeah, yeah, I figured it was just not.

13:38 Maybe that only went with another drink.

13:39 It wasn't maybe the spicy mug that.

13:41 Got the Bobby maybe I, I actually have no idea.

13:43 No, no, no idea. Anyway, that was lots of fun and

13:47 then it was my mum's 70th the next day.

13:49 So happy 70th mum. Happy birthday, Lynn.

13:52 Couple of days ago, we're actually going away this weekend

13:55 for her 70th as a family, so that'll be fun.

13:58 Yeah, it's been a big, big week in our family.

14:02 Yeah. Always get to share the

14:03 milestone birthdays with my mum. Yeah, that's I'm the same with

14:06 my dad. Are you?

14:07 Yeah, but he's 40 years older than me.

14:09 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's funny.

14:12 It's it's good though when you get to say it's.

14:14 Good. Yeah, it's very good.

14:17 Very. Special.

14:17 Yep. I've got a few shout outs for

14:20 today. Oh yeah.

14:21 God. Now I've got to find my shout

14:22 outs for there. I was just saying to you before

14:23 we started. My notes are everywhere for this

14:25 one. So anyway, that's fine.

14:27 We're doing our best. We're we're fine.

14:29 We're good. We are shouting out today.

14:31 We've got Nikki, Egan, Wilson, Tessa, Kirsty, Kim, O'Loughlin,

14:36 Emily and Stacey. Thank you very much for all your

14:38 comments and likes and engagement with us on on all of

14:42 the different types of media. So through Spotify and also

14:47 through Instagram and Facebook. And then we have a very special

14:51 shout out to Sophie Victory, who she said she's bought us quite a

14:56 number of coffees. So thank you so much, Sophie.

14:58 We really appreciate it. Really.

15:00 She said that she listens to a lot of podcasts, and ours is her

15:04 favorite. So thank you, Sophie.

15:06 That means so much to us. Like, we love listening to

15:09 podcasts, too. Yeah.

15:11 So the fact that we're your favorite, I know.

15:13 My God. Thank you.

15:15 It feels. Really.

15:17 Special. Yeah, no, it's awesome.

15:18 We're getting so much engagement in all, all platforms and stuff

15:22 at the moment and yeah, such lovely messages that we're

15:24 getting in boxes and stuff. It's just so nice.

15:28 So yeah, we love it. Thank you everyone, everyone.

15:30 Yeah. Thank you very, very much.

15:31 We really, really and truly appreciate.

15:34 It I think we got our our first bit of trolling the other night

15:38 too, which was pretty hilarious. I love it.

15:40 What? Was the comments again.

15:42 Podcast sucks. Podcast.

15:43 Sucks. They're like, oh, we know, we've

15:48 made it, I. Love that I think that.

15:51 People will take the time to comment like if you don't like

15:54 it, just move on, Move on. Don't listen, OK?

15:56 Great not. Not that it affects us, not at

15:59 all. We could not care less.

16:01 But actually, you know what? We actually really appreciate

16:03 the comment. Naked, good, bad or ugly, we'll

16:05 take him to. Fix the algorithm up for us.

16:07 Yeah, that's right it. Also just makes me go like, you

16:10 know, I feel like you've made it when you're getting trolled.

16:12 Like, you know, it actually there's that, that it is another

16:14 level of, yeah, you know, of spreading the, the, the the

16:17 podcast out there. So.

16:18 Oh. For sure.

16:20 I love it for sure. Thanks.

16:21 Thank you. Another development that's

16:24 happened this week. So this is actually gonna come

16:25 out a few weeks later. So we we are a little bit late

16:28 to the party on this one, but mushroom lady, oh, Erin

16:33 Patterson. So we're recording this on a

16:35 Wednesday night. The verdict came out on Monday.

16:37 Monday and I had like an absolute moment because I I had

16:42 it on alerts right to like the like, because I'm like, this has

16:44 got to come eventually. It's 11 days of them being

16:48 deliberating. It was in the end, Oh, I

16:50 thought. It was 6 pretty.

16:51 Sure, it was 11. No, it was quite a while, but I

16:54 had it on. Yeah, I had it on alert so that

16:56 it would come through. That was happening.

16:57 And then so I got this alert saying, you know, like 25

17:00 minutes or something, and then, yeah, it was coming through.

17:03 And I'm like, Oh my God, Oh my God.

17:05 I have a spa treatment booked. It's not gonna you're not gonna

17:09 go into that. Relax.

17:10 I know. I'm.

17:11 Pending. Oh my God, I'm so like, I don't

17:12 care if it means that the treatment goes like I lose some

17:16 of my treatment time. I need to just hear the guilty,

17:18 not guilty, Yeah, whatever that is.

17:20 And then I can go into the treatment.

17:22 Yeah, like I don't need to hear all of it.

17:25 I just need that snippet of information prior.

17:26 And it was like my appointment was 230, but it was meant to

17:30 come through at 2:15, the announcement.

17:32 But you know, they always like take a bit longer.

17:34 And I'm like, well thank God this bar is like very close to

17:37 my. Seconds from your house, yeah.

17:39 Thank God I can like literally walk out this door with one

17:42 minute spare and I will still get there in time.

17:44 Yeah, Oh my God. But so it was close.

17:46 It was a close call, but I got to listen to their verdict and

17:49 then out the door. I mean, it was such a short

17:52 verdict. It only went for three minutes,

17:54 just under 3 minutes, so that was incredible.

17:58 Unbelievable. But I mean, it's, we're going to

18:02 have to, we will absolutely cover this case so much because

18:05 there's so much. I was reading an opinion article

18:08 about this today and the commentator basically said, and

18:13 it was Annabelle Crabbe. I bloody love her, but she

18:15 basically said in a in a media landscape that is already

18:20 saturated with mushroom content, it would be remiss of me not to

18:27 add my opinion. Yeah, basically.

18:29 And I'm like, yeah, OK, that's how I feel too.

18:31 But I feel like we'll probably cover this after she's been

18:34 sentenced. So it might be months and months

18:36 yet before we decide to cover. Yeah.

18:38 No, we want it to be all. I mean, we've got appeals

18:41 potentially. I don't.

18:43 My gut instinct is that they may not appeal so, but yeah.

18:47 She has 28 days, days after sentencing to appeal and

18:50 sentencing could be. No, no, 28 days from.

18:53 No, it's from sent fiction, isn't it?

18:55 No, it's from sentencing. So she's actually got

18:57 potentially sentencing might not happen for a few months.

19:00 I thought they'd do the sentencing.

19:03 No. After the appeals process had

19:05 been had passed, no. So OK, cool.

19:07 She can appeal after. Sentencing after sentencing.

19:09 All right. Cool.

19:10 So it's got a mention coming up in August.

19:12 Yeah. So that's I think that's what

19:15 they're hoping will turn into a sentencing.

19:16 No, no, that'll be, that is what they call it, a Yeah.

19:21 It's just to just to mention basically so that the judge can

19:24 hear from both sides to say what they think the sentence should

19:28 be. Then he's got time to go back

19:30 and reconsider. They do be victim impact

19:33 statements then, I believe so, yeah.

19:35 OK, that's maybe what I got confused with the air call.

19:37 Yeah. Yeah.

19:38 I mean, I'm intrigued to. I mean, to me, it's life.

19:41 At least one, if not 3. She's, you know, she's been

19:45 convicted of three murders. Yeah.

19:47 And, and, and an attempted murder.

19:49 Yeah. I feel like that wouldn't be an

19:51 unreasonable sentence to expect. No, it's gotta be life.

19:55 But yeah, yeah. So we'll see what happens.

19:56 But I mean, yeah, as I say, appeals process could still play

19:59 out, but I don't know. My gut instinct is that from

20:02 what? The lawyers, the lawyers didn't

20:04 come out straight after the conviction and say this isn't

20:08 OK, We're gonna keep. We're gonna, let's keep going.

20:09 So they were. They were pretty much.

20:11 I'm out the door. I think that's very telling.

20:13 Yeah, I think that's very telling, Martin.

20:14 Said straight away that they're going to.

20:16 They've got a plan of. Attorney yeah, that's right,

20:18 because they're gonna have to scrutinize the entire

20:21 proceedings if they're gonna find.

20:23 To try and find what they could appeal.

20:25 But to be fair, I feel like Justice Beal did an amazing job,

20:30 especially with that, you know, 6 days of instruction to the

20:33 jury. Yeah.

20:34 How could they even pick holes in that?

20:35 I don't. Know no, I just can't.

20:37 Imagine that they could. Every I was dotted, every team

20:40 was crossed. I think it was very, it was done

20:42 very well the trial in that aspect.

20:44 And so and then on the side of both the defence and the

20:48 prosecution, I think both did a good job of presenting cases and

20:51 trying to present reasonable doubt.

20:54 I think that that's that was definitely done well by the

20:56 defence, but not well enough because the evidence was there.

20:59 That's right. So absolutely the prosecution

21:01 put their case well and truly forward.

21:03 Yeah. So I think I don't think there's

21:05 really grounds for an appeal. But we'll, I mean, you never,

21:08 you never know. Tell we might even know by the

21:11 time this case, but by the time this episode is I'm.

21:13 Not sure. Yeah.

21:14 I wonder what they'll, whether they'll come out and announce

21:16 it. You know, as in like, no, we're

21:17 not going to appeal or you know, we're planning to.

21:20 It's coming. So it'd be interesting to see if

21:21 you get we get ongoing information.

21:24 But I love the ongoing little snippets here and there of like,

21:27 OK, well, clearly there's going to be like a Netflix movie or

21:30 whatever, so who's going to play it?

21:33 Oh, who do you think? I have some frontrunners.

21:36 OK, go well. My first pick is if she was well

21:40 enough, Magda Szymanski. Oh.

21:47 I just don't know that I could take it.

21:49 Because my other? No.

21:50 Because my other one. Of my I love Magda yeah, I love.

21:53 I think she's she's amazing, but I just can't imagine her in that

21:57 role because I feel like I just want to laugh like because.

22:02 My other one of like that similar vague but even more it

22:06 would have to be a piss take is Chris Lily.

22:13 I think he'd do a great. Maybe in a couple of years when

22:18 the Dusters said he should bring out his own.

22:24 But apparently, like I've heard that there are certainly

22:30 documentarians down there capturing everything down in

22:34 Morwell over this trial period. So I feel like there there will

22:37 absolutely be something. I mean, the fact that the

22:40 interest in this is worldwide. It's not just Victoria where we

22:43 live, it is worldwide. People are fascinated by this

22:48 and the fascination comes from the fact that it is such a rare

22:53 thing to happen. She's a woman.

22:55 Serial killers are generally not women.

22:59 Well, at the moment she actually fits into the category of mass

23:02 murderer, not. Serial, that's true because she

23:04 hasn't killed four people, but has she well well, actually,

23:08 that is fair all right, we're not going to talk about that

23:10 right now so there's that right. There's the fact that women

23:15 don't poison people generally, unless it's a spouse.

23:18 Yeah, but women are more likely to poison than men.

23:21 That's true. Yeah.

23:23 She's murdered her in laws, that is murdered her in laws, and in

23:27 law what? I think that's what, yeah, I

23:31 mean it. Does murder on the uncle in law?

23:33 Obviously, no motive was given at the trial.

23:35 You know, as a well, any potential motive was sort of not

23:38 presented, which you don't have to.

23:39 And that's, you know, that's completely fine.

23:42 But when you think about it in terms of that, like if she was

23:46 targeting particular people but ended up targeting people that I

23:51 don't know that she had any who had no stake in the game, you

23:53 know what I mean? Like she had no.

23:55 Oh, I can't wait. To actually talk to you about

23:58 this freely, yeah, there's, there's a lot that we probably

24:03 can't say at the moment because we don't wanna put things out

24:07 there that could in any way jeopardise anything that's to

24:10 come. And look, we're not we're not

24:12 deluded. We know that we're a little fish

24:14 in a very, very, very, very massive oh shit.

24:18 But we're still very conscious and we want to do the right

24:21 thing. So we're going to wait until all

24:23 of the proceedings are done. Yeah, everything's done and

24:26 dusted and then we will present this case.

24:28 And jump in. Definitely jump in.

24:30 I can't wait for it actually. They are the same because at the

24:33 end of the day, we do need to think of like the victims in

24:35 this and which the victims are those that have died, the guy

24:39 who was nearly murdered as well as her ex-husband who wasn't

24:43 there but didn't fall ill. But he's still a victim in this.

24:45 But then there's her kids and, you know, and just the the rest

24:48 of the family. Staff at the hospitals and all

24:50 that. The far reaching impact of this,

24:53 I think is actually probably unknown.

24:56 Yeah, I know we heard from so many witnesses in the court

24:59 proceedings. Yeah, But, you know, that was,

25:03 what was it, 50 odd people, I think that would have affected

25:07 all of them in some way. But that wouldn't even come

25:09 close to, you know, the change in the community of Lingatha,

25:13 the people who, you know, they've lost pillars of their

25:16 community that that changed the landscape for them.

25:18 So that doesn't go unnoticed. And we absolutely acknowledge

25:22 that. And I think when whenever we're

25:24 talking about things like this, we always try and keep the

25:27 victims in the forefront of our mind and.

25:31 They have got lost in this one a little bit, I think, I think.

25:34 So I think so because of the sensationalism of it.

25:36 And like, you know, the memes are funny, but very funny.

25:40 And also they are, they're great and people.

25:43 Are so clever. Oh yeah.

25:45 But then at the end of the day, three people have died and one

25:48 person almost died. And then?

25:50 And he's probably got ongoing medical issues from what

25:52 happened. I mean, he would, yeah.

25:55 And there's two kids now without a mom.

25:57 You know, that's horrific. And.

25:59 Could have lost their dad. When you really put a thing,

26:01 when you think. About it.

26:01 So, you know, Well, there's some joviality to it.

26:05 Yeah. We also acknowledge the fact

26:07 that it's heavy. Oh yeah.

26:09 And we don't wanna take away from that.

26:12 Not, not. Definitely not.

26:14 So on that note, should we get into today's case?

26:17 Today's one's a good one in that like, it's so different, so.

26:20 So different, so well, first of all, I think this is our first

26:24 case from a non-english speaking country.

26:27 True, true. And so today we are talking

26:31 about the Butcher of Delhi. So Chandrakant Jha mm hmm.

26:37 There is a Netflix documentary about this case and it's really

26:41 interesting. Now I need to know.

26:44 Yeah. Did you watch it with subtitles

26:47 or dubbed? No, I watched the dubbed one.

26:50 Yeah, not the subtitle. Which did you do?

26:52 So I did the first two episodes I did subtitled, and then

26:56 there's only three episodes. Yeah, the third episode I did

26:59 dubbed. I was so impressed.

27:01 With the dubbing. The dubbed.

27:02 I then went back and looked at certain bits of episode 1 and 2

27:05 with the dubbing and I'm like they have done a really good

27:08 job. Incredible.

27:09 Well, I mean, The thing is that got me a little bit was with the

27:12 dubbing, was that there were quite a number of people in it

27:15 who spoke English. Yeah.

27:16 And they even dubbed them, Yeah. Which I get from a point of like

27:20 a thick accent, you know, all that sort of thing can help.

27:22 Can make it hard to understand sometimes.

27:24 So they've dubbed it, but yeah, so.

27:26 Listening OK, so as because I watched the 1st 2 with

27:30 subtitles, even when the people who were speaking English came

27:34 on, I had to read the subtitles because I couldn't understand

27:36 yes and it was more like a dialect thing and the the the

27:39 way they talked them really threw me like it was not it

27:44 wasn't the way I'm used to listening to people speak.

27:47 So I found that I needed to still read the subtitles anyway.

27:51 So I get why they dubbed yeah of English.

27:54 Yeah, yeah. No good choice.

27:55 Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I definitely.

27:57 I mean the dubbing was spot on like it was so good.

28:01 I I mean, there's plenty of like shows with dub and I can't

28:04 watch. Oh, you can't just can't.

28:05 Like there's a few recently that I've watched that have been

28:07 Dockos or anything that I've watched of dubs and it's like,

28:11 Oh no, no, it just throws me entirely.

28:13 Can't watch. Whereas that you could literally

28:16 watch or listen like both and just be engrossed in it and

28:20 what? And that's not actually think

28:22 about it at all. Did you find you were engrossed

28:24 in it though? No, no.

28:26 Same. There were particular it went up

28:28 and down. Yeah, I did.

28:29 They did lose me. It beats a particularly episode

28:32 2. Yeah, I feel like I almost

28:34 almost didn't need episode 2. You could watch.

28:37 It in one episode to. Be I just wonder whether like

28:39 Netflix have done it in a you know, it's been sold as a you

28:42 need a three parter and they had to create a three parter about

28:45 something that's maybe not got enough in it to make it a three

28:48 parter. Yeah.

28:50 But the people they had speaking in it was were very

28:54 knowledgeable, oh, incredibly intelligent people.

28:57 Absolutely. The one that got me a little bit

28:58 was, I can't think of her name now, but she was like a

29:02 professor and I believe she had like a psychology background and

29:06 she spoke mainly around. Yeah, the psychology of of, Oh

29:09 God, I'm gonna, as I said to you.

29:11 Chandra Khan Chandra Khan We we we apologize in advance.

29:14 We big time. This case is set in India.

29:18 There are so many Indian names. We are.

29:21 Going to places. And places we are going to do

29:24 our best to pronounce them, but we, we're really, really sorry

29:28 if we butcher it. We oh.

29:29 Yeah, there we go, said to you. Butcher.

29:31 Butcher it. Like totally.

29:32 Really sorry if we do we're we truly are doing our best.

29:36 I was like, can we call him Jar? We can call him Jar because so

29:39 Chandrakant Jar is his name. Yeah, full name.

29:42 So yeah, he, she sort of spoke about his, the psychology of him

29:47 and all these sorts of things. And she was very intelligent and

29:52 but I don't know what her connection to the case was, as

29:56 in what did she work the case at the time or is she just looked

30:00 at this after the fact? Well see, I got the impression

30:03 she worked the case. See, I don't know that she did

30:05 and this I kind of at the end of it kind of went OK, I don't

30:09 really get where, but where's she where are you in this?

30:11 Like where did you get brought in?

30:13 Like yeah, where's the I mean, obviously the police officers

30:16 and things that that spoke, you know what their role was in it.

30:19 Yeah, like yeah, yeah. But yes, that's.

30:22 The interesting one, I I wasn't, I have to say I'm, I wasn't a

30:26 massive fan of the documentary. I love me a true crime

30:30 documentary, obviously. I mean, the fact that we do this

30:32 podcast, yeah, I, this one just didn't really hook me in.

30:37 No, I, I found myself listening and then tuning out and doing

30:42 things, which often with a doco, a true crime doco, I don't tune

30:45 out. I'm engrossed the whole time.

30:48 Yep. Yeah.

30:48 Whereas this one I did. I was in and out, in and out.

30:51 It took. It took me a week to watch the

30:54 three episodes. Like I really struggled with it,

30:58 I think because it was so slow and I feel as though they were

31:04 building to something, but there was never any real.

31:08 Like nothing ever fully hit home.

31:11 Like it just, I don't know. To me, it wasn't what I was

31:15 expecting and not what I'd probably come to expect from a

31:17 Netflix documentary, to be honest.

31:19 No, very different format I think.

31:21 Yeah, yeah, I agree. No.

31:24 But anyway, let's get into the case and and if people want to

31:28 know more you can watch the documentary.

31:30 However, I have to say when I was researching this, there is a

31:34 huge amount of other information.

31:36 And I did wonder a little bit on that is, is that because I'm

31:40 looking in English? Like maybe if I spoke a

31:43 different language, if I spoke, I'm guessing Hindi is my, what I

31:46 speak that like if I was looking in Hindi, then maybe I would

31:49 find more. And maybe it was just that the

31:52 fact that I was obviously it was like my Google search is gonna

31:55 find me all the English stuff, language stuff.

31:57 Yeah. Although I did find court

31:59 documents and things like that and they were in English.

32:02 So I don't know. I don't know what, what?

32:05 Yeah. Which is I felt like, I felt, I

32:06 feel like I've got holes in this like that I haven't filled.

32:09 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there are some gaps.

32:12 And I wonder whether that's because that information is just

32:14 possibly never been released. I feel like if Netflix, if that

32:18 documentary couldn't plug those gaps, then maybe the information

32:22 is not freely available. Yeah, yeah, I feel, I feel

32:26 exactly the same way. And then also the timeline of

32:28 events in certain things, I've found a lot of discrepancy.

32:34 So there's some police files you can you can see online and their

32:39 timeline does not match up with what's then presented in the

32:42 documentary and then. That would be a little bit to do

32:46 with their legal system though, too, because what happens there

32:50 is so in a police interview you you can sit there and confess

32:56 and tell them everything about the crime that you've done.

32:59 None of that can be used in court unless they find evidence

33:04 to prove it. So like here in Australia, if

33:07 you that that interview that you did with the police officers

33:10 would be used as evidence. That's not the case in India.

33:13 It cannot be used as evidence you they have to externally find

33:16 all the evidence. Yeah, because apparently, you

33:20 know, you could essentially go to court then recant your

33:23 confession. Yes.

33:24 And they would have no leg to stand on.

33:25 So they wouldn't even bring anything to prosecution unless

33:29 they've got solid evidence. Yeah.

33:31 That's why this case is very strange, I think.

33:34 I mean, for us, from our perspective, because we've got I

33:40 guess the Australian legal system or maybe the Western

33:43 world's legal system, in our minds, it seems bizarre, but

33:46 you're right, it's we need to make sure we're looking at this

33:49 from the lens of the Indian judicial system and the way they

33:54 work. So you're absolutely right.

33:56 So they cannot prosecute somebody unless they've got

33:58 physical evidence to prove the crime.

34:00 Yeah. But I feel like maybe there's

34:01 information that you're getting that could be from those

34:04 interviews. Yeah.

34:05 But then, you know, what they've had they've been able to present

34:08 at court is slightly different because of the evidence they've

34:10 gained. So yeah, that's where I think we

34:12 get a few things that don't marry.

34:13 Up. Yeah, I think you're.

34:14 Right. Whereas in our system, we think

34:16 we tie that up a lot more for sure.

34:18 Yeah. For sure.

34:19 All right, let's get into it. So Chandrakancha was from the

34:23 village of Gosay in Baha, and he was born to Rati Kant JA and

34:30 Champa Devi. So ready.

34:33 Ready was his dad and Champa Devi was his mum.

34:39 He grew up in an incredibly poor family, Very, very, very, very

34:43 poor family. His mum was a school teacher I

34:48 believe, although she never provided any type of education

34:53 for her sons. He was one of six children to

34:56 his mum and dad. I think he was the 6th.

34:59 I think he was the youngest in the family and they were all

35:02 boys. Oh my God, Can you imagine

35:04 having six boys? I can't even like 2 is 2 is

35:07 enough. 2 is enough. The fact that my 2 just were

35:10 bashing each other 5 minutes ago.

35:12 Imagine having six of them and they were all pretty close in

35:16 age. I believe the I actually can't.

35:21 Do you know what his dad did for work?

35:23 No, because I'm about 3 different places.

35:25 I had three different answers to that question, so.

35:27 Because I couldn't find it either.

35:29 Yeah, I've got in one place where it said that he worked in

35:32 the irrigation department. Oh, I did.

35:34 See that? Yeah.

35:35 But then I've got other ones that said very different

35:38 information too so. So his dad was employed, Yeah,

35:41 but they lived on the poverty line, according to lots of

35:46 different people from their village.

35:47 So they they lived in a village, they lived in mud brick type

35:52 houses with no floors. That was like dirt floors.

35:57 They lived a very, very basic life.

36:00 They had no plumbing and they certainly had want for a lot of

36:07 what we would consider in the Western world, basic life

36:10 necessities like a flushing toilet and that kind of thing.

36:12 That that sort of certainly wasn't their experience.

36:16 So their upbringing with six kids to care for, six boys to

36:23 care for. Nonetheless, Chandrakant and his

36:27 siblings were really left to fend for themselves because

36:32 their mom was actually quite neglectful.

36:35 Their dad was out working and he would apparently again in

36:38 whatever work it was that he did, he would actually have to

36:41 leave the family village and the family home to go and do

36:45 whatever it was that he did for work.

36:48 And his mum, who was trained as a school teacher, actually

36:51 didn't work after she had children, which I believe was

36:54 quite customary of the time. And but she also then really

37:01 neglected her children to the point where they would often go

37:06 hungry unless they found food for themselves.

37:08 And when I say found food, they had to steal food from other

37:11 people or steal food from markets and that kind of thing.

37:15 They, she didn't ever hug them. There was no physical contact.

37:20 And they, I just feel like they, the six of those boys just

37:26 really grew up in a really neglectful environment.

37:29 You. Know, in an impoverished nation,

37:36 you can't provide your children food.

37:38 That would be horrific. But you can always hug your kid.

37:41 You can always kiss them. You can always provide that

37:44 physical comfort. But she just never had that.

37:47 Apparently she was a really hard woman.

37:49 Yeah. People from the village were

37:51 scared of her and wouldn't approach her.

37:55 She was, I mean, she must have had issues of her own like.

37:58 Sounds like it, yeah. Yeah.

38:02 So apparently she was quite contentious and would always get

38:06 in a fight, like if somebody came and approached them, she

38:08 was sort of always, always there.

38:11 Formal education was a luxury that none of the children were

38:15 able to experience. And so from a fairly, I think, I

38:18 think Chandrakant went to school up until year 8.

38:23 But that was that was it. Yeah.

38:28 And then after that, the expectation was that he would go

38:30 out and get a job and provide for the family, the rest of the

38:34 family, as as was the responsibility of the seven

38:37 older brothers of his. Yeah.

38:39 In order to do that, he decided to make his way.

38:43 Oh, by the way, he was born in like 1967. 1967 I couldn't find

38:46 a birth date date but yeah 1967. Yeah, sorry.

38:51 So after he'd finished year eight, he tried to find

38:54 employment, I think, in their village, but there wasn't a lot

38:58 going around and he'd actually already been involved in some

39:02 pretty serious crimes. Now, none of these are being

39:04 prosecuted, none of them are proven or anything like that.

39:08 But in the documentary, they interview a man who was of

39:12 similar age to Char and that he basically says that he'd killed

39:19 people in the village for, you know, not helping him with

39:22 things or he, he had this strong sense of what he thought was

39:28 right or wrong. And if anyone stepped outside

39:30 that, then he fucking murdered them.

39:32 Yeah, don't worry about what murder says.

39:34 About you but. And people knew this of him but

39:37 they were too scared of him to approach him in any way or, you

39:41 know or to you know call him out.

39:43 Yeah yeah or. You know, and there was

39:46 interesting relationships with people who lived in these

39:49 poverty sort of stricken areas and police.

39:51 So they weren't able to even really have police officers come

39:55 and. Look at this.

39:56 No, it wasn't. I mean, there's a lot of

39:58 corruption as well. Yeah, he did get married in the

40:00 village not long before he left there.

40:04 But then he and his wife, apparently, she moved up north.

40:07 He moved to Delhi. That relationship just dissolved

40:10 like there was no, yeah, no children were born of that

40:13 relationship. I believe it was an arranged

40:15 marriage that just went. Nowhere.

40:16 Yeah, right. He then met a second wife, they

40:21 went on to have five daughters. So he's come from a family of

40:25 six boys to then go on and have 5 girls.

40:28 That would have been a bit of a bit of a difference, a bit of a

40:30 shake up. But the weird thing is, so he'd

40:33 moved to Delhi by this point. By the time he'd met his second

40:36 wife, he housed them in a he. So he lived in a certain part of

40:42 Delhi. He housed them on the outskirts

40:45 of Delhi. He never, ever, ever ever lived

40:49 with his wife and children. That's really intriguing.

40:53 Isn't it? Because that's, that was a bit

40:55 where I, I kind of got a bit confused as to how well, where's

40:58 his wife and his kids now? Like it was almost like that

41:01 together. Oh God, so he just didn't have a

41:03 relationship with them? No, not until they were older,

41:06 right? So when he when they were young,

41:08 he had no. Nothing to do with them at all.

41:10 See, that's his mum coming out with that, you know, like

41:12 distance. Yeah.

41:13 For. Sure.

41:14 Aside from sending them money, yeah, that was.

41:16 It OK. So financially he would support.

41:18 Them, well, I don't know how well he did, yeah, but he

41:23 certainly did. I know he sent them money.

41:26 Yeah, he did support them in some way financially there.

41:29 Yeah, gosh. It's it's really such a

41:34 fascinating dynamic. I just can't imagine living like

41:37 that. No, no, he was working.

41:40 He was working in Delhi. And so we were talking about

41:44 this just before we hit record, actually, because they call

41:48 anybody who wasn't born in Delhi, who immigrates to Delhi,

41:53 an immigrant. Yeah.

41:54 And so he moved. The town that he grew up in was

41:57 900 kilometers from Delhi, and when he moved there, he was an

42:03 immigrant and he was seen as less than because of the village

42:06 that he came from. He was seen as uneducated, as a

42:08 lower class, a lower caste. Due to just where he grew up and

42:14 the color of his skin. He had much darker skin than a

42:16 lot of the people that lived in Delhi at the time, or probably

42:20 still do. And so people knew also by the

42:23 way he spoke and the way he wrote, yes, and by his dialect,

42:26 that he wasn't from Delhi and that that made him less.

42:29 Lesser, yeah, yeah. And they also apparently what

42:33 happens is when you move like into Delhi from out of out of

42:36 villages, they tend to still find people from their own

42:40 village and stay within those sort of groups because everyone

42:43 is a bit like, well, you're not from here.

42:45 You're you're an immigrant. You're so it is quite

42:48 segregated, kind of, you know, parts of the the city like that,

42:53 that you, you sort of stick with your, your village people.

42:56 And yeah, so they don't, you know, mix in.

42:59 So they come to Delhi and just be part of the the makeup of it.

43:03 Yeah. I found that really interesting

43:05 that it wasn't. I thought that it would be more,

43:07 you know, you come to Delhi to chase your dreams because it's

43:10 the capital and everyone's there doing the same thing, like.

43:13 But it seemed like that that didn't really change that much

43:16 for you. Yes, it was more opportunities

43:17 for work, but you were still considered the lonely, you know?

43:21 Yeah, it wasn't. It didn't immediately change the

43:24 status, that's for sure. Yeah.

43:25 OK. Yeah.

43:26 He. He was working in a fruit and

43:28 veg market, Yes. And stealing various bits and

43:33 pieces to then sell later at night.

43:35 Him for himself. Yeah.

43:36 And there was a man by the. Oh gosh, what was his name?

43:43 Sorry, I'm going to get it. But they.

43:46 So they basically had like the head of that area of the fruit

43:49 and veg. So this guy's name was Pandit.

43:52 Yeah. And he would come around and he

43:55 was actually like paying off the police as well.

43:58 So it was a very corrupt kind of situation.

44:01 But all of the fruit and veg stall holders had to pay Pandit

44:04 a certain amount of money, I guess, you know, to keep them

44:10 safe or to keep them there. I really don't know.

44:13 And he would pay. So Chandrakant would pay this

44:17 money to Pandit, and then Pandit decided that he would actually

44:21 take all of their money and then decide how much he would give

44:24 back to them or to live. And this pissed Chandrakant off

44:30 no end. Yeah, I get that.

44:32 Oh, yeah. He's already living a pretty

44:36 tough life by this stage. He did have a place.

44:40 He did have like AAI guess, a house, again, very rudimentary

44:47 in terms of what we probably think of houses in in this day

44:51 and age, but or in Australia for sure.

44:53 And I know people in India and in lots of developing countries

44:57 around the world still live like this.

44:59 He lived in a slum essentially and would allow friends of his

45:09 to come and stay with him and his employees to come and stay

45:12 with him. He actually paid his employees

45:14 in food and board, not in money. So these people were literally

45:20 there to eat and have a roof over their heads and nothing

45:23 more. They were never going to.

45:25 Be weren't going to get better yeah that's that's such a yeah

45:28 doesn't work that system doesn't I mean you can't make make

45:30 better for yourself, can you and no.

45:32 But I don't think there's potentially for these people.

45:35 There was no other opportunity. This was it for them.

45:38 So the fact that JA had gotten himself into a position where he

45:44 was kind of in charge of that, I mean, I guess to some extent

45:47 good on him. You know, he's he's kind of

45:49 gotten in at that level. Interesting one.

45:53 Very much so. Yeah, so this, I mean, I guess

45:58 you can tell by the name of the the documentary, The Butcher of

46:02 Delhi. Pandit ended up becoming the

46:07 first known victim of JAR. Yeah, in 1998.

46:16 So Jar also goes by the name of Mangal.

46:20 But everyone knew him as Pandit. Yeah, he had been.

46:25 So Pandit had been, well, according to JAR, had been

46:30 tormenting him essentially and demanding he give him more

46:33 money. It was a sort of a financial

46:35 control. He.

46:40 So this was a bit of an altercation where Pandit had

46:45 asked for money Jar had a knife because he was cutting up fruit

46:50 or vegetables or something and had cut Pandit's hand.

46:55 And because Pandit had a tie in with the police because he would

46:58 pay off the police. Yeah.

47:01 Pandit basically went to the police and said he stabbed me.

47:06 The police normally would never have done anything about that,

47:09 but because it was panned at making the complaint, they

47:11 arrested Jar and he went to prison for four years.

47:15 I. Think yeah, it was released in

47:16 2002. Was it?

47:18 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he spent time in what was the

47:24 name of the prison. Tara Prison.

47:27 It was a maximum security prison.

47:29 Huge. I looked it up on Google Maps

47:31 because I'm like, I need to get a, a visual idea of how big this

47:35 place is because there's like all these gates and all that.

47:37 It is like a village in and of itself.

47:40 There are so many people in there.

47:42 I couldn't actually get an accurate count because I don't

47:45 think they know. Well, I mean, when 500 murders

47:47 happen every year in Delhi, just in Delhi, just in Delhi, yeah.

47:52 I mean, this is the thing. The population that we're

47:54 talking about is huge. I mean 5.

47:57 Billion people in India. Yeah, I mean, 500 saying 500

48:00 murders are happening in Delhi, that's probably the most in the

48:02 world happening in a year in one place.

48:04 No, but it's actually per capita, not that bad.

48:07 That bad. Yes, sorry, sorry.

48:08 By volume, by volume, what you're saying?

48:10 Yes, but per capita it's normal. It's.

48:12 Yeah, by per capita actually, it's actually not terrible.

48:16 No, it's just. I linked the.

48:17 Calculations because I was interested, yeah.

48:20 So I was only able to get the stats in Australia.

48:22 The latest I was able to get was 2003.

48:25 There were 409 murders in Australia in 2003, right?

48:29 Which is .00002% in India. In that same year there were

48:37 30,000 murders. 30,000 murders. Yeah.

48:43 But that only represented .00003%.

48:48 Yeah, so. .00001% more than Australia.

48:52 However, crimes in India are wildly underreported.

48:59 Yes, in some areas it's estimated that up to 80% of

49:04 murders are not actually reported to the police, or if

49:09 they are reported to the police, they do nothing about.

49:11 It which is like what we're talking about with in terms of

49:13 jar, in terms of back of in his village, yeah, he quite possibly

49:16 killed a number of. People, well, they're saying it

49:18 could be like 40 people he killed in his village that no

49:22 one is talking about. No one is.

49:27 No one knows. Where the bodies are or what's?

49:29 Going on. Well, I mean, there's a reason

49:31 why they don't know who the bodies are.

49:33 Yeah, but we'll get to it. Yeah, Yeah.

49:36 That's just insane that there's yeah, there's, there's.

49:39 They're not reported. And so therefore, there's a

49:41 whole lot more going on than what.

49:43 Yeah, what we know. But the size of the population

49:46 just means that this is it's just a splash in the ocean like

49:49 it's not. But for us in Australia, we've

49:52 got enough police resources to investigate 409 murders across

50:00 the country in a year. Yeah.

50:02 Well, do we? We could do small, absolutely.

50:05 We absolutely could do with more and I'm sure all the homicide

50:08 detectives are probably like we need more resources.

50:11 Of course you do, yeah. But imagine having 30,000 to

50:17 investigate in a year. Yeah, that's 805A day on average

50:21 or something like that. Yeah, it's insane.

50:23 Yeah, crazy. It's insane.

50:25 There is no way. And that is just the murders

50:28 that are reported and exactly try to be investigated.

50:32 That's not every other one. That's not.

50:34 So that's where we're at. Yeah.

50:36 So Java's released in 2002 from that altercation with Pandit

50:42 because of lack of evidence. There was again, we kind of came

50:45 to this bit where, you know, there actually wasn't any

50:49 evidence. The eyewitnesses decided not to

50:52 talk and not to corroborate. So at this point, when he came

50:56 out of prison, he transitioned from selling vegetables to

50:58 dealing in like plastic goods. He also would rob, like,

51:05 television stores and then sell TV's or whatever from electronic

51:10 stores that he sold. And this is my favorite bit.

51:14 He took up karate. Yeah.

51:16 At this point to, you know, really be able to defend

51:21 himself. Wow.

51:22 Oh. God, just stay away from me.

51:28 Stay away, so And around this time he actually murdered Pandit

51:34 as well. So that was in 2002, right?

51:36 I believe. So I think so.

51:38 Yeah, again, dates are sketchy. Dates are sketchy.

51:41 Yeah, it's. Well, sorry, I was just going to

51:45 say while he was in prison, when he, sorry, we'll find out that

51:48 later, more so about this, but he claims that whilst he was in

51:51 prison that he was tormented and humiliated by guards.

51:56 And I mean, I can only imagine, like, the prison would have been

51:58 pretty hard to live in. And he was there for four years,

52:03 that it wouldn't have been a nice place to be, I dare say.

52:06 And knowing what the corruption of the cops are like on the

52:10 streets, I can just imagine what the guards would be like in a

52:14 prison and how people would be treated in there.

52:17 I mean, we, I mean, not that I don't even want you to have

52:19 been. If you've been convicted of

52:20 murders and things like that, I don't think that you need to be

52:22 treated, you know, but like, like a Prince.

52:25 Yeah. But.

52:26 But yeah, there's also human rights.

52:29 That's right. But I don't believe those basic

52:30 human rights are necessarily being met at times in these in

52:33 this prison. So we should just sort of say

52:35 that's that sort of, you know, he he claims that really, you

52:40 know, twisted him a bit, but I think it was already there.

52:44 Absolutely. He was already there.

52:46 Yeah, in June of 2003, he committed what we, I guess is

52:53 and what we think is his second murder.

52:54 I mean, as we said, there's potentially dozens, if not 10's

52:58 and 10s of murders before this. Yes, But he took the life of one

53:03 of his associates named Shikhar. Yep, he said she.

53:06 So he he just, he had this MO for all of his killings.

53:12 Yeah, All of his murders, it was when he felt people were immoral

53:16 or did something that he didn't approve of.

53:19 Killing's fine, obviously. Yeah, don't worry about killing.

53:22 That's not. No, no, he justified that

53:24 because they had. Wronged.

53:25 They had wronged him. And it could have been very the

53:27 world minimal amount some. Of the things he killed people

53:30 for, we'll get to that. His reason?

53:32 Terrible. Yeah, Yeah.

53:34 He said Shaka was an alcoholic and he said he was deceit,

53:40 deceitful about money. Apparently, he char thought that

53:45 he'd stolen money from him. Whether or not he had I I don't

53:48 know. Yeah, after the murder, he

53:51 actually disposed of Shikar's body in a storage drain in

53:56 Delhi, in Alipur, in Delhi. He'd already started

53:58 dismembering them at that point, yes.

54:00 Yes. So this was the first body that

54:03 he'd attempted to dismember, right?

54:06 But he disposed of the whole body together in this instance

54:11 in November of 2003. So a few months later he then

54:15 murdered his Co worker umesh for dishonesty and betrayal.

54:21 This time he further dismembered the body and left it wrapped in

54:28 a plastic sack in front of the Tahar jail's gate #1 So this was

54:34 the jail that he'd spent that four years in, and he actually

54:40 had wrapped the body in newspaper and then plastic and

54:44 left it in a basket. I.

54:46 Believe. Yeah.

54:47 Yeah, it was in a basket. Like a in a food type basket

54:50 that they would take to say the market to gather all of their

54:53 food. Yeah.

54:54 And he left it in front of the jail and nobody really even knew

54:58 what was inside of it. No.

55:01 In October of 2005, he killed Gudu due to his disapproval of

55:07 Gudu's extravagant lifestyle. Whatever that means, I don't

55:10 really know because Gadu was another associate of his who

55:14 never earned money from from JAR, just earned food and a roof

55:20 over his head. He said he was a gun, just

55:22 smoker. Yep.

55:23 That second time that word's come up in an episode recently,

55:27 yes. And so he really disapproved of

55:29 that. Gadu's body was discovered near

55:33 Slub in northwest Delhi. Right.

55:38 And he was dismembered. But again, his body was all in

55:43 the same spot. All of his bits and pieces were

55:45 all in the same spot. After this murder, things

55:49 started escalating. Yeah.

55:51 He murdered his associate Amit Mandal for his womanizing

55:55 behavior. Oh.

55:57 Yeah. How dare he?

55:59 I believe Amit had actually tried to crack on to one of his

56:05 daughters, actually. OK, So he was in contact with

56:08 them at that stage, he. Was in contact with them at this

56:10 stage. They were older by then.

56:12 Yeah. His children were teenagers, if

56:14 not in their early 20s by this stage.

56:17 And I mean, this man was the same age as them.

56:21 Like he was young too. Yeah.

56:23 But obviously char didn't like that.

56:26 And that's something that like was being, I was speaking about

56:29 on a podcast that I, I'm a listen to called Crime Scene.

56:32 It was a very interesting take on these things because what

56:34 they had was it's there's an Australian woman who, who's in

56:37 it as well as two Americans. OK, one of them is from, she's

56:42 from Oklahoma, but she has, she's an Indian.

56:44 It has Indian heritage. She speaks Hindi, you know, so

56:47 she watched the, the, the three-part documentary in Hindi.

56:54 Oh, OK, no subtitles. No, you know, no dubbing.

56:57 And also watch the dubbed version in English, right, Which

57:01 I'll come back to in terms of her, some of her interpretations

57:04 of things that then that might show up.

57:06 But also what she spoke about really interestingly was that in

57:10 India, like women are kind of thought of as a bit of a second

57:13 class citizen. And that she, she was quite

57:16 surprised by these, these serial killings being of young men,

57:20 because typically this kind of, you know, harm would be done to

57:24 women, you know, whereas being done to men is it was, is very

57:28 unusual. So I guess in general across,

57:31 you know, across the world, that is the case.

57:33 I mean, more likely women are going to be attacked than, than

57:34 men. But he didn't target a single

57:37 female, which I find that very interesting.

57:39 Then he's had daughters as well. And whether that's like, and it

57:44 was his mum who was cruel to him, like, but he hasn't

57:47 targeted females. He has gone for men in targeting

57:50 for all of his victims. That's really, that is actually

57:54 really fascinating. Yeah, I've got some notes.

57:57 We'll get to them in a bit. But I did read an analysis by an

58:01 Indian psychiatrist about him. She does state that he has never

58:08 had any psychometric testing or anything like that because it's

58:13 not actually generally part of what they go through for their

58:17 judicial inquiries or any, any part of that judicial system.

58:20 So right, the person has to be willing to undertake that

58:23 independently. OK.

58:24 And obviously he hasn't done that not, but she said in

58:27 everything that she's seen of him, read of him, she's done an,

58:30 an analysis. I'll, I'll read that to you in,

58:33 in a little bit because that was really fascinating to, to see it

58:37 from her perspective and what she thinks the trigger points

58:41 were. Yeah, yeah.

58:43 So Amit is dismembered completely his head, arms and

58:50 legs and were dismembered and deposited elsewhere the

58:57 remaining body. So basically his torso.

59:01 Also his penis was cut off. Yes, the torso was left in front

59:06 of the Tahar jail again. Mm hmm.

59:08 The rest of his body parts were actually left in front of a

59:11 courthouse which was about 20 kilometres up the road.

59:14 It was the Tis Hissari Courthouse.

59:17 It took him a long time to work out who this body was, 'cause

59:20 obviously finding it as a torso with no head like penis, all

59:24 those sorts of things. Yeah, not that I think you could

59:26 identify corpse by their penis, No, that's true.

59:31 But the head could be handy I guess to identify handy someone.

59:36 And also we've got to probably put into account as well.

59:39 So in India in the two early 2000s, not a lot of CCTV, if if

59:45 any, you know, some of the bigger department stores in the

59:49 city had CCTV that was about it. Yeah.

59:53 There was no, you know, sort of mobile phone sort of coverage or

59:57 things that were necessarily taken in that respect either.

1:00:01 Yeah. So investigating this was

1:00:03 really, really difficult for the police as well.

1:00:06 Yes. In April 2007, he took the life

1:00:09 of a person named Upenda. Due to his involvement with this

1:00:15 time, it was with one of Jah's daughter's friends.

1:00:20 After the murder, again he dismembered the body and placed

1:00:24 him in front of the court in Delhi.

1:00:26 Again, his whole body. This time he was dismembered, so

1:00:29 he was in pieces, but his whole body was placed there aside from

1:00:33 his head again, actually, I think.

1:00:35 So this was it, Gate 3 again, Gate three.

1:00:37 Yeah. So the other interesting thing

1:00:40 about this one is when they found this body, it was tightly

1:00:43 wrapped into this basket with this string around it so tightly

1:00:47 that the the officers couldn't cut it open to see what was

1:00:50 inside Like. So they were, and they basically

1:00:53 like, and some guy randomly just went, oh, I've got this, I'll

1:00:56 help you and Cut the Rope. Right.

1:00:59 Turns out that was JA who did that, who later on it, you know,

1:01:04 said, well, yeah, that was me. That was me.

1:01:07 I so stupid. I cut that open for you.

1:01:10 Yeah, because. I knew how it was how.

1:01:11 Brazen of him to like be right there as the police are finding

1:01:14 this body and like, you know, at this point too of the

1:01:18 investigation they were they were sort of a bit knowledgeable

1:01:21 of who this could take potentially could be and he's

1:01:24 standing freaking right there. Oh, it's it's brazen.

1:01:30 A month after that killing jar killed his friend Dilip.

1:01:35 Dilip ate non vegetarian food and that.

1:01:38 Really upset him. That was what triggered him to

1:01:40 kill him. Yeah, yeah.

1:01:44 Yep, he also placed his body in front of the Tahar jail #3 gate

1:01:48 #3 on the 18th of May. Now, this one was a little bit

1:01:52 different because he'd been placing all of these bodies in

1:01:55 front of the jail as AI think it was a way to draw attention or

1:02:02 gets I I don't even really understand the motive, I guess.

1:02:07 But he wanted it to be known that he was smarter than them.

1:02:10 Oh yeah, and he knew more than them and he they could never

1:02:13 catch him. But they hadn't even really put

1:02:16 together to be fair, they hadn't really even put together that

1:02:20 all of these crimes were related because different police units

1:02:26 investigated each different thing and they didn't have a

1:02:29 cohesive I don't even know if they do to this day.

1:02:31 I'm I'm sure it's different, but back in 2000 and six, 2007, they

1:02:36 didn't have a cohesive way of sharing information amongst

1:02:41 their units. So no one knew that he even

1:02:45 there was a serial killer. No doing the same thing.

1:02:48 It wasn't until so was it this case where he phoned the police

1:02:54 and basically said I've left something out the front of your

1:02:56 gang #3. He did that even on in the first

1:03:00 body with the first body, he he rang one of the he rang a police

1:03:04 officer and he left a letter as well with that body.

1:03:07 Yes, yes, the letter was about that, where he really detailed

1:03:11 that he was Yeah, he trauma was traumatized by his time in jail.

1:03:16 And it kind of like from the letter, the police officers were

1:03:19 basically like, oh, this is someone who was miss put in jail

1:03:24 for the wrong for, you know, if not doing anything, you know

1:03:26 that. And now he's killed someone.

1:03:28 This is like, you know, this is his first killing ever.

1:03:30 Like, yeah. Because he said, he said in the

1:03:32 letter, something along the lines of you put me in jail for

1:03:34 something I didn't do. Well, now I've done.

1:03:36 It. And now I have done what you put

1:03:37 me in jail for, which, like, I mean, Nah, man.

1:03:41 But yeah. So he really made out as if, you

1:03:43 know, like, he was such an innocent man and you tortured me

1:03:46 and humiliated me in jail. And I didn't deserve any of

1:03:48 that. Yeah.

1:03:49 Even just being put in jail, he wasn't deserved.

1:03:51 Didn't deserve that. And so now I've gone and done

1:03:54 what you've accused me of kind of thing.

1:03:56 And this is this body. But his letter was also really,

1:03:58 like, targeted at the police and like, just in general, the

1:04:02 disdain for them. Stupid they were.

1:04:05 And yeah, he was so much smarter than them and they would never

1:04:07 catch. Him.

1:04:08 Yeah, yeah. It wasn't until I think the

1:04:11 third body when he did make a phone call, though.

1:04:14 He's because he would ring into the police station and he would

1:04:17 ask for certain police officers. In the end, too, he knew who to

1:04:19 ask for and but he he let them know and said you're so stupid

1:04:24 that you didn't even notice that on that first body admit that

1:04:28 his name had he had tattooed his name?

1:04:30 Yeah, into his arm. They were like, we can't find

1:04:32 who this person is. We don't know who it is.

1:04:34 He had his name tattooed on him like, so he was, he did sort of

1:04:38 call him out on a few things that they weren't doing well.

1:04:41 But yeah, they were able to, once he started calling into

1:04:44 the, into the, into the police, they were able to track some of

1:04:47 those phone calls and they tracked one of the, the calls

1:04:51 that they'd been a phone not far from a like convenience sort of

1:04:55 store. So they went down there and

1:04:57 spoke to the guy at the shop and said, have you seen anyone using

1:04:59 that phone today? And he goes, I've seen one

1:05:01 person make 3 phone calls, which they had had three phone calls

1:05:05 coming to the, the jail and into the, the police officer police

1:05:08 office that night. So they're like, this is our

1:05:11 guy. So he did describe what it looks

1:05:14 like to them. And they did get to get a bit of

1:05:16 a composite drawing of what they think the guy looked like.

1:05:19 He also described the vehicle that he was driving in.

1:05:22 So he was driving in a motorized rickshaw.

1:05:24 Yeah, but it was like electric kind of.

1:05:26 Yeah. He'd had noise either.

1:05:28 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was an interesting vehicle

1:05:32 that wasn't, I think it was, it wasn't well used like it wasn't

1:05:35 and like it wasn't. It would have stood out a little

1:05:38 bit, I think. He hadn't.

1:05:40 I think the fact that it was motorized or high was.

1:05:44 Because he had altered it in some way, it made it stand out

1:05:47 in some way. Yeah, yeah.

1:05:50 So when the police were now they kind of had a bit of an idea of

1:05:54 what they were looking for, a rough area in which they were

1:05:57 looking for this person and you know, a, a, a pretty good

1:06:01 physical description of who they.

1:06:03 Were, but I mean, you think of Dali, I mean that the population

1:06:05 is huge. You're still looking for a

1:06:07 needle in a haystack to me. Like I think they were able to

1:06:09 narrow it down as well because in his letter that he wrote

1:06:13 that. So there were, in the end, there

1:06:15 were two letters with two of the bodies.

1:06:17 And they were actually able to narrow down by the language and

1:06:22 the dialect he used with his writing that he was from Bihar.

1:06:27 And so they kind of knew roughly what area Bihari people lived

1:06:33 in, in Delhi because as you were saying before, they all kind of

1:06:36 stuck together. Yeah.

1:06:37 And so they were patrolling that area.

1:06:41 And there was a police, one of the detectives was in that area

1:06:44 trying to, I don't know, look around.

1:06:46 And he got got a phone call from the guy who'd just spoken to the

1:06:50 convenience store owner and he said, look, we're looking for

1:06:54 this motorized rickshaw that's got, I think it was like a

1:06:56 certain color in this. And he was literally at that

1:06:59 time standing at the front and he's like, Oh my God, that that

1:07:05 vehicle is literally right in front of me.

1:07:08 Like, what are the chances? It's crazy.

1:07:11 And such a. Huge.

1:07:12 City and then that happens. What the hell?

1:07:15 So he goes into the house that the ritual is parked in front

1:07:19 of, and who does he find in there?

1:07:20 Chandra Khan. Chandra Khan.

1:07:22 Yeah. Jar.

1:07:24 Sorry, Yeah, he is literally sitting in there eating his

1:07:27 dinner and they rest. Him.

1:07:30 They rest him, yeah. Take him down to the police

1:07:32 station for questioning and yeah, they, they, he basically

1:07:38 confesses, doesn't he? Yeah, he he does he.

1:07:41 Doesn't really put up much of a fight.

1:07:42 No, he's like literally when he gets into into the interview, he

1:07:47 this is where I was saying that he unleashed he he did just told

1:07:50 him everything. He didn't hold back.

1:07:51 He was like he wanted to get, you know, he wanted them to find

1:07:55 him. He wanted.

1:07:55 Them to see how great he was. So yeah, he basically said in

1:07:59 that first police interview that he would dismember the victims

1:08:04 bodies and scatter them remains across Delhi because that way he

1:08:09 wouldn't be found. His death ritual typically

1:08:14 commenced it around 8:00 PM, so he'd always do his killings at

1:08:18 night. He would always restrain his

1:08:22 victims. So he would tie them up, tie

1:08:24 their legs together and tie their arms together.

1:08:27 And he would tell them that he was disciplining in them,

1:08:30 disciplining them for whatever bad thing he'd or indiscretion

1:08:34 he decided they they'd committed.

1:08:36 Yeah. And he would then usually

1:08:40 strangle them. That was the general method of

1:08:44 murder. Yeah, I believe he did stab one

1:08:47 of them or cut one of their jugular.

1:08:49 Yeah, I think you're right. But I'm pretty sure the rest was

1:08:52 strangulation, which died by strangulation.

1:08:55 He would then, just because he'd always also commit the murders

1:08:59 in his home. Yes.

1:09:01 And he would then just eat his dinner and then decide whether

1:09:05 what he'd do with the body a bit later on.

1:09:06 Because, you know, man's got to eat.

1:09:09 This is it. Yeah, what a total piece of

1:09:12 shit. But.

1:09:12 He would like drive around and he's he's rickshaw and he would

1:09:15 just toss the body parts because.

1:09:18 Into the river to wherever they found them.

1:09:21 All over, like all over the place.

1:09:22 They was, you know, like, yeah, just saying like the toss only

1:09:25 one spot. So far, can you go in a

1:09:26 rickshaw? Because he'd go far.

1:09:28 This way, Night motorized it so he could get around a bit a lot

1:09:30 more because some of. Them are like 40 odd kilometers

1:09:33 away, like a significant amount away from different towns, He.

1:09:37 Lived from yeah, it was insane. Their list of like different

1:09:40 places they all were was crazy, unbelievable, amazing.

1:09:45 As we say, like all of his confessions, though, like it

1:09:47 didn't mean anything unless the police could find all the

1:09:49 evidence. So they did do a very good job

1:09:52 then of finding the pieces of the puzzle and well, literally

1:09:54 in terms of the bodies and putting it all together to be

1:09:57 able to get at least charges for three murders on him, even

1:10:02 though we're feel like we're aware that.

1:10:04 Was it? There's at least 7.

1:10:05 Is at least I think 18 that ultimately they they do believe

1:10:10 they have enough evidence on of like Bade to link him to OK, but

1:10:15 only three that was enough to be charged on right.

1:10:18 But then when you really look at the whole timeline of his life

1:10:23 and as you were saying, potentially 40.

1:10:25 Yeah, you know so the number just grows.

1:10:28 Yeah, it's. And we'll never know.

1:10:30 Like I, I, I truly believe we will never ever know how many

1:10:34 people he's actually killed. He notably doesn't even know.

1:10:37 I don't think so because I think that his and we'll, I guess we,

1:10:41 we'll talk more about his psychology of, of what he's

1:10:43 done. I don't think he thinks anything

1:10:45 wrong of it. No, he thinks.

1:10:47 So therefore it's not justified. He thinks he's justified in

1:10:50 doing it because, yeah, you know, they ate a non vegetarian

1:10:52 meal. Well, yeah, how dare they?

1:10:54 Yeah, kill him. Not, not good.

1:10:58 Yeah, no, I mean, thankfully he did disclose everything.

1:11:00 I guess that helped the police in finding bits and pieces to

1:11:03 put together all of his things. But yeah, as I say, can't, you

1:11:07 can't charge him unless they've got evidence.

1:11:08 So. There was.

1:11:10 So his defence team at trial did all they could really do was try

1:11:16 and raise reasonable doubt, and so all they did was try and

1:11:20 discredit all of the witnesses. The witnesses in the case were

1:11:24 people who he'd attacked, who'd survived, people who'd lived

1:11:27 with him or being close associates of him.

1:11:30 Yeah. He then threatened them and told

1:11:32 them that they weren't allowed to testify.

1:11:33 But then they couldn't, not because they were otherwise

1:11:37 implicated. And so that would have been a

1:11:39 really horrible thing for those people to to have to do.

1:11:44 But yeah, the only thing they could really do is try and

1:11:47 introduce some reasonable doubt by, you know, questioning the

1:11:51 integrity of the people who were giving evidence.

1:11:54 It stuck in some of the instances and some of the

1:11:57 charges, but in others it didn't.

1:11:58 And as you said, in the end he was, he was charged with those 3

1:12:04 murders. They did find at his place two

1:12:08 blood stained knives and some blood stain on the floor which

1:12:11 they were able to use in court to to link up the murders that

1:12:15 had occurred in his home is. That the blood of the three

1:12:18 people then. I think there was 2 that they

1:12:21 could link to him having done that at home, whereas I don't

1:12:24 know that they know where where he murdered the other, the third

1:12:26 person. Slash all the others, yeah, I

1:12:28 believe mostly he did murder them at home.

1:12:30 But I think the three the the evidence, the blood evidence in

1:12:35 that house were just the most recent ones.

1:12:37 It was. It was also the ones that they

1:12:38 had like bodies of to go that matches, whereas they may have

1:12:43 found other blood DNA and DNA but had no one to link it to

1:12:48 like of going who's like, yeah, they didn't have the bodies.

1:12:51 So yeah, they have because of there's certainly ones that

1:12:54 they've never found. Yeah, so he was sentenced so on,

1:12:59 you know, being found guilty of the three counts of murder.

1:13:01 He was then sentenced to two death sentences and life

1:13:05 imprisonment until death in Feb of 2013, but later the death

1:13:09 sentence was commuted to life imprisonment, imprisonment

1:13:14 without remission, which means without parole.

1:13:17 Which I found really interesting.

1:13:19 Well, isn't it? Do you find the same stuff I did

1:13:22 about him escaping? Well, he didn't escape.

1:13:25 They let him out. Yeah.

1:13:27 So, OK, so in 2020. No.

1:13:33 So I've got 23 and 25. Yeah, that, that they definitely

1:13:37 happened. Yeah.

1:13:38 In 2020 though, he was, he asked for parole on five occasions and

1:13:46 furlough on 7 occasions. So furlough as in like a a, a

1:13:51 grant, an access of of leave? OK, leave.

1:13:55 I'm sorry. Yeah.

1:13:56 What? Citing his role as father to

1:14:00 four young daughters as the basis of his appeal.

1:14:03 But by that stage, they would have been like, in their 20s,

1:14:05 yeah. So I think two of them were

1:14:08 still underage at the time, and I think the other three were

1:14:11 adults. Yeah, in 2023 when he was

1:14:16 released. Though he was granted parole in

1:14:18 August of 2023 and he failed to surrender.

1:14:21 Yeah, but why was he granted parole, do you know?

1:14:24 No. I'll tell you why.

1:14:26 I know why. Because he had to arrange a

1:14:29 marriage for his eldest daughter because she was too old.

1:14:34 She had to get married and there were no other male relatives in

1:14:38 the in the family. Not none of his.

1:14:42 Who would be? Five brothers of his own.

1:14:44 Who would be able to take care of that?

1:14:47 So they let him out for four months.

1:14:52 Someone who just butchers people randomly.

1:14:54 Yes, and who'd been in prison before and then murdered people?

1:14:59 What the fuck? To arrange a marriage for his

1:15:02 eldest daughter. That's.

1:15:03 Insane, that blows my mind. That's scary.

1:15:07 Like I don't want to ever meet this person.

1:15:11 Yeah. What he shouldn't have been even

1:15:14 allowed near his family. That's crazy, isn't it?

1:15:19 Because then again, on January 17th, 2025, so we're there was.

1:15:23 Like we're recording, this is in 2025, this is this year, this is

1:15:26 recent, yeah. He was arrested at Old Delhi

1:15:31 railway station because he was fleeing to attempt.

1:15:35 He was attempting to flee to back to Baja.

1:15:39 Like what? How the hell did he get there?

1:15:42 I don't think. I don't think we know.

1:15:47 Just blows my mind that there's this like he.

1:15:49 Could you look at like the prison riots as?

1:15:51 To how prison. It's it would be difficult to

1:15:58 physically escape from. I am sure he is corrupt and I'm

1:16:04 sure if he had enough money and enough people.

1:16:06 But does he have enough money? Like, I mean, where would he get

1:16:08 that? He must from.

1:16:09 I feel like he's got supporters though.

1:16:11 What? Like what?

1:16:12 Wait. Yeah.

1:16:13 Who would support him? People who were in the community

1:16:17 who thought he was helping them because he he posited himself in

1:16:21 that community in Delhi of all of their yeah, expats from his

1:16:25 ability. So like, he's like Robin Hood.

1:16:27 Yes, exactly. Who butchers people?

1:16:32 Well, just ignore that beard. Just stick your head in the sand

1:16:37 about that stuff because it's all OK.

1:16:39 Yeah. Yeah.

1:16:40 Because he's. Oh, no, there's no way.

1:16:43 Oh no. I actually reckon that scares

1:16:47 the shit out of me and not. I don't want to go to Delhi now.

1:16:50 Yeah, yeah. Because he could just be

1:16:54 wandering around and decided Butch you up and stick you in a

1:16:58 bus. Although.

1:16:59 He does only butcher men. True that.

1:17:01 OK, I'm safe, so I think you're OK.

1:17:03 OK, I'm good. That makes it OK.

1:17:06 Yeah, I mean, we'll be fine. We're fine.

1:17:10 Just don't travel with the boys. Yeah, no, obviously Righty 00.

1:17:14 Sure. It's, it's bizarre because it's

1:17:19 absolutely. So he, yeah, this is the thing.

1:17:21 So OK, I want to hear more about the psychology of him.

1:17:24 OK? Because.

1:17:26 All right, so he honestly believes he's just doing good in

1:17:30 the world by, you know, someone who's vegetarian, not eating

1:17:32 vegetarian. Yeah.

1:17:34 You deserve to die. That's that's a really bad

1:17:37 thing. You're.

1:17:37 An absolute piece of shit and you deserve to die all.

1:17:46 Right. OK, let me let me find my notes

1:17:48 about the psychologist because yeah, she her, her take on it

1:17:53 was yeah, I mean, obviously. While you're looking for that.

1:17:58 He he sorry, no, he lived. He grew up in a really

1:18:03 emotionally devoid. I'm just going back to our

1:18:06 Rachel tolls thing now. Yeah, his mum and dad did not

1:18:09 give a shit about. It No, he ticks boxes on all.

1:18:11 A lot of boxes, yeah. He grew up impoverished, he was

1:18:15 malnourished. There was a lot going on for him

1:18:18 and his family. He was one of six boys, and he's

1:18:22 the only one who's committed murders that we know of.

1:18:24 Yeah. What?

1:18:26 Why him? Why him?

1:18:28 Yeah. Very, very fascinating.

1:18:30 So in that documentary where as I was saying before that this

1:18:34 there was that podcast I was listening to where the girl will

1:18:37 listen to it, listen to it in Hindi and then in English.

1:18:40 And she was saying to me saying about the fact that the

1:18:43 translation into English missed it a little bit of.

1:18:48 So in the letters that he sent the police, the lady who was the

1:18:53 psychologist in the documentary talked about the fact that in

1:18:56 the letters, he clearly had no respect for his mother from.

1:19:01 And. But in English, what we get from

1:19:04 the letters is that he used language like motherfuckers, OK?

1:19:08 And so I, I remember listening to it myself kind of going,

1:19:11 well, that's a big leap. Like just 'cause you say,

1:19:13 motherfucker, you therefore have no respect for your mother.

1:19:16 Like, that to me, doesn't correlate.

1:19:18 Yeah. But if you call Pat a

1:19:20 motherfucker, I'll. Call that everyday.

1:19:25 I I get what you mean though, like in terms of the the

1:19:28 severity scale, I get that that it's a long jump it's to go to.

1:19:32 Big jump to be like, you know, like I, you know, have no

1:19:36 respect for my mum and I'm going to murder people, right.

1:19:38 Yeah. So but what she was explaining

1:19:40 was that the translation is not really motherfuckers and it's

1:19:44 and there are different Hindi words that were in that letter.

1:19:48 OK, that indicated that more strongly that Yeah, her

1:19:51 psychology take on it was accurate.

1:19:55 It was the English translation that was poor.

1:19:58 OK, so and I and like, because they're not words that we have

1:20:02 in out in English, I can't explain exactly what the words,

1:20:06 word of what, how much that would be affect would affect

1:20:08 that and how that would, you know, be interpreted that way.

1:20:10 But it's definitely on the money that yes, the letters were

1:20:13 written in a way that very clearly showed of absolute

1:20:19 disdain and disrespect for his mum.

1:20:21 OK. So, but that's still then the

1:20:24 thing that then doesn't fit for me is that I would have thought

1:20:28 then he would target females and women of sort of a similar age

1:20:32 gap to him, to him and his mum, you know what I mean?

1:20:35 Rather than or women of an age of his mum at the time when

1:20:40 these disrespectful things happened that he didn't like

1:20:42 that his mum did do. You think the fact that he had

1:20:44 daughters might have changed that?

1:20:45 Yeah, I don't know what the psychology behind that.

1:20:47 Is. I'm not sure either, but it is

1:20:49 interesting to note that all of the men he killed were late 20s

1:20:52 early 30s. They.

1:20:53 Were young. They were all, they were all

1:20:55 like within four years of each other in terms of age.

1:20:58 Yeah. What's that?

1:20:59 About there was definitely he had a definite type and it was

1:21:03 definitely this you know if he felt disrespected by them and

1:21:07 that could be very minimal that was his MO yeah so it was that a

1:21:12 man male aged between 20 and 24 basically yeah and.

1:21:16 And somehow disrespect him. Yeah.

1:21:19 They were his criteria. Yeah.

1:21:22 To commit murder or Yeah, still are.

1:21:24 We could get out. Yeah.

1:21:27 So I, I, I'm intrigued as to, as I mean, again, going back to the

1:21:31 Rachel Toll stuff in terms of the breakdown of what makes a

1:21:33 serial killer. Like, is that his, what's that

1:21:37 word that she talked about? Like at the age of 3 when you.

1:21:41 The the paraphilia. Yeah.

1:21:44 And you make that attachment and that sort of becomes what they

1:21:46 they target. Basically what this psychologist

1:21:48 is saying as well. Yeah, right.

1:21:50 I'll just read a little bit of what she said.

1:21:52 Yeah. In the case of Chandra Kancha,

1:21:55 social and environmental factors play a major role in shaping his

1:21:58 criminal behaviour as compared to other psychological and

1:22:01 genetic factors. His early childhood also played

1:22:04 an important factor in his later criminal behaviour.

1:22:07 Jazz's early upbringing in the absence of positive role models

1:22:10 significantly contributed to his descent into life characterized

1:22:14 by darkness. Throughout his formative years,

1:22:16 he lacked the guidance and mentorship that could have

1:22:19 steered him in a more positive direction, rendering him

1:22:22 vulnerable to the negative influences of his surroundings.

1:22:25 So I think by that she means like the poverty and all of that

1:22:29 sort of stuff and the things he ended ended up getting himself

1:22:33 involved in. But then in court, she actually,

1:22:40 this psychologist, I think it was her mentor, actually gave

1:22:45 evidence. And in the evidence, they

1:22:50 labeled his way of killing as an extremely brutal, grotesque and

1:22:55 diabolical way to raise intense and extreme indignation of the

1:23:01 community. Mental and physical suffering

1:23:04 inflicted on the victim before his death is immense.

1:23:07 There is a significant degree of planning on the part of JAR

1:23:10 while committing the murder. The judge then said that JAR is

1:23:14 a mission oriented and task oriented serial killer whose

1:23:18 only motive is to expose, mock and challenge the police and

1:23:22 that Jar's act of threatening the police that he would send

1:23:25 such gifts again reflects a lack of remorse and his intention to

1:23:30 repeat his criminal act, which is why he ended up giving in a

1:23:33 sentence the the death penalty. Sentence to him original because

1:23:37 he'll do it again 'cause he will do it again so let's give him

1:23:39 parole and let's let him out to go and organise his daughter's

1:23:44 marriage. I just.

1:23:45 I know it makes. I mean that would never happen

1:23:48 here. Like obviously that would.

1:23:49 Never be absolute. So I think it's hard for us to

1:23:52 get our heads around it, but maybe culturally that is

1:23:55 obviously very, very important. Yeah, I get it.

1:23:59 But no matter how culturally important something is here in

1:24:02 Australia for a release from jail never happened.

1:24:05 That's you might get released to go to say you know, your parents

1:24:08 funeral or something for like, but and it'd be for a certain

1:24:13 period of time of like an hour or two like kind of situate and

1:24:16 it'd be chaperoned and yeah, yeah, like where is this was

1:24:20 like yeah, yeah. No mate, go sort yourself out.

1:24:21 Like go, arrange, go, arrange that marriage and we'll see you

1:24:25 in a few months. Shall we?

1:24:26 You got 90 days or whatever it was.

1:24:28 Yeah. This this psychologist then said

1:24:31 I think I was saying before how she's he's never had an analysis

1:24:35 done. But in everything that she's

1:24:37 looked at, yeah. She said in relation to signs

1:24:41 and symptoms of personality related issues, signs like

1:24:45 grandiosity, manipulation, disregard for others feelings

1:24:48 was observed in Chandrakantha and he moreover fit into the

1:24:52 category of antisocial personality disorder and

1:24:55 narcissistic personality disorder.

1:24:57 However, there was never a crystal clear conclusion

1:25:00 provided as the required tests and assessments were never

1:25:03 conducted. I think she's fucking nailed

1:25:07 that. I think yeah, totally.

1:25:10 But just it's still like makes me question though, like what

1:25:13 has what has made him go from the to the absolute extreme of

1:25:18 the butchering of the of people? Like what?

1:25:22 I don't know. I There's killing someone and

1:25:24 then there's. Dismembering them, cutting off

1:25:26 their penis, throwing that somewhere, throwing their head

1:25:28 somewhere else. Like to me that says, well,

1:25:30 cutting off the penis particularly to me says that

1:25:32 he's potentially been sexually abused.

1:25:35 So there's just so much more to me that that his crime says

1:25:41 about him. Don't.

1:25:42 Know that we will ever know what we currently know.

1:25:45 No, I mean, you want to understand a brain like that.

1:25:49 Yeah. And I know we can't, especially

1:25:51 if no one's actually gone in and analysed him.

1:25:54 Yeah. Because surely, like, there's a

1:25:56 way of doing that. Just.

1:25:58 I feel like everyone should if they've ever these crimes.

1:26:01 I just feel like they should be analysed off as I'm hanging for

1:26:04 Aaron Patterson to be analyse within the interview.

1:26:08 Live. Oh, it's.

1:26:09 Coming find out there, yeah, I just I mean so intrigued that I

1:26:13 want to know what has happened to this person to create that

1:26:19 and yeah. I, I, I'm with you 100% on that

1:26:22 because. Like negligent, neglectful

1:26:25 childhood's one thing. I, I, I get it.

1:26:27 And that that's going to create, you know, an adult that doesn't

1:26:32 do the right thing. But it's the extreme of what

1:26:36 he's done. Oh, his, his actions, his

1:26:38 behaviour is so extreme, even as you was just saying, even in

1:26:43 relation to the way he murders and dismembers bodies.

1:26:46 Like that's such an extreme way to do things as well.

1:26:49 And with such little regard for consequence, too.

1:26:52 Because, you know, he had the knives, the murder weapons.

1:26:55 He had the victim's blood in his house.

1:26:58 Yeah, there was no covering it up.

1:27:01 It was, it was just brazen. It's it's it's.

1:27:05 To rock up, you know, back at the dead, the body that he's

1:27:08 left there and, you know, go, Oh, yeah, I'll help you, you

1:27:10 know, cut it open. That's not necessarily uncommon,

1:27:14 is it? No.

1:27:15 Killers want to go back to their they.

1:27:17 Want to go back to the scene of their crime?

1:27:18 Absolutely. It's, I mean to like stand there

1:27:21 and talk to the police and say. That gets me.

1:27:24 You know, I'll give you a hand with it.

1:27:26 When he had to have been at that point though, too, I think they,

1:27:30 they were at a point of like knowing a little bit about who

1:27:33 this person was. So they kind of shouldn't know.

1:27:38 I think that even at that point they had that that composition

1:27:41 of what he looked like. Oh, did they?

1:27:43 I'm pretty sure that they already had that.

1:27:45 Drawing just hadn't seen. It exactly, yeah.

1:27:48 Wow. OK, yeah, that's fuck right.

1:27:53 Yeah, bloody hell. It's crazy that is crazy that

1:27:58 is. Crazy.

1:28:00 This is an interesting one, really.

1:28:02 I don't think we'll ever, ever, ever know any more than what we

1:28:07 currently. Know, but I hope we never ever

1:28:09 get another one of him. No.

1:28:11 And if we do, can we people as a community like, not like, let

1:28:15 them out just. Yeah, can we just like keep not

1:28:17 in prison? That really disturbed me and I

1:28:19 because. Life sentence without parole.

1:28:21 It's life sentence without parole.

1:28:23 I've said for a damn good reason, yes.

1:28:26 I mean, he could have literally in those couple of months he was

1:28:28 let out to do that. I mean, imagine if he'd like.

1:28:30 How do we know that he didn't? They actually might not even.

1:28:33 He might have been. Interviewing grooms for his

1:28:35 future daughter's future and gonna go no don't like you don't

1:28:39 like you you've looked at me the wrong way bad.

1:28:43 Imagine like being his son-in-law, I mean, which is, I

1:28:47 mean, I feel a bit bad for his daughter.

1:28:49 Like no wonder she's a bit of a spinster and getting too old

1:28:51 because everyone will be terrified.

1:28:53 Like I'm I'm 20 to 24. I'm not and.

1:28:55 It's probably worth noting, even though you and I, before we

1:28:58 looked into this, we'd never heard of him before.

1:29:00 But in India, he is infamous. Yes.

1:29:03 So it's not like people don't know who he is.

1:29:06 He's very well known. Yeah.

1:29:09 And people were scared before he got caught.

1:29:11 People were terrified. Yeah, gotcha.

1:29:14 Yeah, don't blame him. It was.

1:29:17 Nine years or something of terror that he was, you know,

1:29:21 Yeah. Listing on the poor,

1:29:23 unsuspecting people of Delhi. Oh.

1:29:25 God, that's just awful. Yeah.

1:29:28 Oh, this has been a really different one.

1:29:30 Very different, Very, very different.

1:29:32 And it was I found, you know, the language, all the language

1:29:35 stuff and even the, the traditions, the customs of the

1:29:39 country. Yeah, India and the way their

1:29:42 judicial system works and the policing and I mean all of the

1:29:44 corruption and things like that that we probably haven't really

1:29:47 discussed in any of our other cases really.

1:29:49 Not even like, you know, like with even with Chapelle Corby.

1:29:52 Therefore it was in English and a lot of it, but a lot of it

1:29:54 wasn't too with being a Bali case, you know, we had different

1:29:56 language there, but not not to the impact of what this one.

1:30:00 Yeah. What it was.

1:30:00 Yeah. Yeah, that's it.

1:30:02 Yeah. Anyway, it was a really

1:30:03 interesting one. I think someone have suggested

1:30:05 this case, so to whoever did, thank you.

1:30:08 Otherwise, I don't know how we've got it on our list.

1:30:10 I don't know. But yeah, it was good.

1:30:13 Yeah. So next week we are covering a

1:30:16 case that has actually been requested by lots of different

1:30:19 people. A lot of people requested.

1:30:20 Covering the Anita Kobe case. So we're back in Australia next

1:30:24 week. Yeah.

1:30:25 And we'll be bringing that one to you guys.

1:30:27 So thank you very much for joining us again on another

1:30:30 episode of Two Crime Besties. We are loving this.

1:30:33 Please keep it going. We're just, you know, couldn't

1:30:36 be more delight. Oh, it's so good.

1:30:37 It's. So great.

1:30:38 So thank you everybody. Make sure you follow us on

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1:31:31 All right, well, we'll see you next week.

1:31:33 Everybody stay curious. Crime besties.

1:31:36 Bye.