Episode 54 - The Butcher of Delhi: Chandrakant Jha

0:15 Here we are, two crime besties for another episode. How are you today, Meg? Hey, Emma, I'm good, I'm good. We're here. We've got school holidays going where it's evening. We've had wine. We should be right. A good yeah. Oh, if nothing else, we've got the Dutch courage behind us. So to keep it going. So that's, that's something, yeah, then. We'll get it going. We'll be good. We're. Good. It'll be fine. Yeah, we've had to alter our schedule this week thanks to school holidays and different bits and pieces, so.

0:45 Kids get in the way of everything, don't they? Don't they though, steal all the fun? Unbelievable. Yep. Everything's about them. Oh, it's totally yeah. Yeah, but I love it. Too. It is great. It is great. I actually love the school holidays. I love having that extra time to spend with them. Took the boys into the city today and had lunch with Peter and then we went for a bit of a wander around DFO Southwarf and they got new school shoes. Can you even believe how much money you spend on school shoes in a year school?

1:15 Shoes freaking kill me. Like, and they're just runners. It's not like our kids, our kids don't go to a school where they need to wear leather shoes or anything. That'll probably be cheaper, to be really honest. They're probably cheaper, yeah, 'cause Oh my God, the whole thing with the sneakers, it's just, it's so expensive. It's so expensive. And now one of my kids is in men's sizing. So close. My mind that's. Like size, next level. I know his foot is now bigger than mine and he's 11. He's gonna have huge.

1:43 Fate. I think so. Yeah, I think so. And it's gonna cost a fortune. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, God. But they were look really cool shoes. They were cool. They were cool, yeah. Good sales at this time of year or no? Yeah, no, they were good. I mean, they're still sprouting the end of season sale, end of financial financial sale even though it's well. Part of financial. Yeah, I'll take it though. Yeah, yeah. I don't like paying full price for anything. Oh God, no, I refuse. No, I'll search for that shit, you know, far and wide on the Internet to find it cheaper somewhere.

2:12 Yeah. Insane. Yeah. Yeah, although when I was growing up, my best friend, her grandma was very, I'm going to say frugal, but she was very careful with her money. Yeah. And she, but she used to do some really dumb things, like she would go to a different shop to buy, say, eggs because they're like $0.12 cheaper. And I'm like, but you're not even as a kid, I'm like, you would have spent more than $0.12 on petrol to get there. That's not actually a saving. I was legitimately this afternoon just sitting down going I should do a Costco run.

2:46 And then I kind of started out, what do I need? Like, you know, and put my my things down my my usuals that I get them. What am I low on and what am I fine for? And I'm like, is it actually going to be cheaper if I go to Costco like. I feel like for the kids, snacky things that is. Let's see, my kids are so fucking fussy that I'm likely to get there and go. Not nothing. This. It's not exactly. It's not what they're gonna want. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, I'm actually tempted to not, I've got, I've written down all my prices on my normal things 'cause I just find sometimes my things that I get are like the nappy sand stuff for you know.

3:20 And oh, that is definitely cheaper at. Cost. It is, isn't it? Yeah, definitely. You can never get it that cheap at the no even on half. Price, this is it. Even on special, it's not gonna get that Yeah, cheap. So yeah, I think that's what I need to get. And the other thing that you can't get it at all is unless you do the market thingy or whatever is the smelly ball things that you're in your washing stuff. I love those. Things I never use them before. I don't use them like you don't need as much as they say.

3:43 So they do last me ages. But yeah, I'm like, I do. I'm probably, I'm not like desperate for them, but while I'm there I should get one of those stockers and yeah, yeah, but I'm still like the other things I've got on my list. I'm like, I reckon it's probably much of A muchness between bullies and in Costco. Yeah. Then is it worth going all that way? Yeah. For one thing, that might be cheaper. Yeah, no, definitely not. Yeah. Definitely 'cause that's the nightmare of a. And then also, I was gonna say, and then also the mental trauma of actually going there.

4:11 It's the nightmare. It's such, it's always a nightmare. It doesn't matter. I feel like with other shops, if you go early it's fine. You know you can get in and get out before the crowds come. Yeah, at Costco it's shit literally from the minute they open to the minute they close. Yeah, yeah. And the car. PARK, OH. Horrific. That just drives me horrific. Can't handle that car park. It's. Terrible. Yeah, it really is terrible. Yeah. Oh no, I so I'm just I don't know will I do it or not? And I feel like, I feel like you should.

4:42 I actually feel like you should just to stock up on those. Yeah, I'll go. And when I don't have any kids. Yeah, that's right, because dragging the kids around Costco is a. Oh God, that's, I haven't done it yet. And I'm like, yeah, thank God. Because I think it's one of those things where I'll walk around that they'll be like desperate, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna want that. I want that, I'll eat it, I'll eat it or whatever. And you just know that you're taking home fuck ton of something they're never gonna touch.

5:07 Again, had an experience like at Costco, and she bought this massive packet of cheese balls. Yeah. And her kids, and I'm talking it was like this giant tub of them. Yeah. Her kids each ate 1. So two ways. Shit. And then she said to me, she's like, do you want these? I'm like, no, I don't want them #1 where the hell am I going to put this giant jar of bloody cheese balls? Yeah, but also I'm like, if your kids don't like them, I don't think my kids will work. Yeah. So yeah, good luck to you if I'm trying to find someone who wants to take that.

5:43 Absolutely. We actually started a I'll See Eaters pantry at my work. Oh, tell me more. Yeah, so like what we do is like, so if you, you know, even just a packet from woollies, let alone a big massive packet of something from Costco, you go, you sort of go, I think my kids are going to eat that. And then you get it home and they have one and they're like, Nah, I don't like it. And you're like, crap, now I've got a whole box of them I've got to get rid of. So yeah, bring it in, put it in the pantry.

6:07 And it's a give and take system. Like, you know, you might see something that then someone can come in and just take one out of that box, take them home and try it with their kid and go, oh, my kid did like it. Now go to Woolies and buy the whole pack. The whole pack. You know, like, yeah, this is just for staff, no. No, not anyone. Anyone. All, all Yeah, the whole school kind of thing. Like we. Yeah. So you just. Start. Yeah, Come and pop your stuff in as you have things that you've tried. You've got a packet of something that you're like, now you need to get rid of that, Yeah and yeah.

6:33 And everyone else, just like you can just take one of takes as much of you like, who cares? Like kind of stuff no one's watching, but like you're yeah, 'cause if it's something your kid does, like, yeah, take the box, whatever. But if it's something that you're like, Oh no, we wouldn't mind trying that. We've been eyeing that off but didn't wanna buy a whole packet. Take one, go home, see if they like. It the best. Yeah, 'cause we're just over the whole and we, a lot of the parents, we're all talking about the fact that, you know, we are kids of fussy eaters.

6:54 Yeah, yeah, it's a good one. Try I love. That idea, people should take that on. Yeah, it's. Awesome. There's always stuff in there and there's always people taking from it. Love it. Works really well, yes. Yeah, you'll bet. Yes, good one, love. It love it. I've had quite a large week. Have you? No, no, you. Well, a particular night, yeah. What are the nights? You have had a week and 1/2 that is for damn. So we're actually recording this a little bit late because last Friday, which would be a normal recording day, I had my 40th birthday party.

7:29 Yay. I mean, it was, it was great. I actually had the best night. I really had such an amazing time. You know, it's it's rare that you get all of the people that you love in one. Room, yeah, and. It's nowadays, it's maybe for a milestone birthday. That's about it, really. Yeah. So loved it. Absolutely loved it. Not before. So my brother came over because we needed a bit of muscle and we, I also needed his decorating expertise. He's good at stuff like that. So he helped me do the balloon Garland.

8:04 So he spent like ages pumping up all these balloons doing this balloon Garland. It was great. And then we'll still, I know he's got way more patience than I do. I don't have the hair and hair. I don't have the patience, no. I think I put 2 balloons in and that was enough. Yeah, I was like, oh fuck. This shit, I'm not doing it. I have 0 patience for things like that. Yeah. Whereas Matt will go and go and go until the job's done. Yeah, sorry, hyper fixation. You'd better bloody be listening, by the way.

8:32 Yeah, he did a good job. Did a. Compressive. Yeah. But then we decided, while Matt was here, obviously use the muscle to move the furniture because we move stuff out of our living room into the garage just so that we could have a bit of extra space. A bar obviously had a bar brought in, had some furniture brought in and when Peter and Matt moved the couch, they moved. I had the vacuum cleaner out because everyone knows underneath the couch is the most disgusting area of your house when you. Have kids body oh I. Just don't even know when the last time I cleaned under there was Well, it was the most disgusting thing.

9:10 I I was. If it wasn't my brother, yeah, would have been so. Embarrassed I've done that with like where my couch had a little a defect kind of thing and I had to get someone in to fix it and I literally I had the vacuum on hand going, Oh my God, this is going to be embarrassing. Like as soon as he lifts that couch up, I know is what's going on here. But he said to me, guys, don't worry, everyone's is the same. Yeah, so. But like, yeah, you're mortified. Yeah, anyway, I wasn't mortified because at least it was just.

9:36 Yeah, but yeah. I had the vacuum cleaner out anyway so we could quickly get the job done. Anyway, when they picked up and put, they sort of moved the couch because it comes apart, so they had to kind of move it away from the wall so they could get it apart. And when Peter put his side of the couch down, he put it on the head of the vacuum cleaner. And so I put my fingers underneath the couch, pulled the head of the vacuum cleaner up, and then the whole couch came down on my fingers. Because, you know, it's not.

10:03 It's a. Floor. It's a floor to the floor. Well, the front is open, but I was holding it on the side, which is to the floor. It's a wooden solid wood panel. So I went Oh dear. Oh. I'm sure that's what you said. A little bit. Yeah, I can imagine. I I actually like. I know this sounds really dramatic, but I actually nearly passed out. Oh, so much no. I 100% yes. And then anyway, I looked at my fingers and I'm like, oh, I think they're broken. So anyway, Peter's like, do you want to go to emergency?

10:34 I'm like, no, I'm not sitting in emergency for. 4 hours for 5 minutes down the road from your place though like. I didn't want to sit there for a broken like fingers are fingers like what can they actually do? So I went into some good. Painkillers. Yeah, that would have been well, I actually might have had some in the cupboard. Oh, OK, cool. So. I actually had an I was an interrupted sleep. My there was more of a throbbing. Yeah, than anything anyway. So the next morning GP appointment I was telling you this.

11:02 I got into the GP at 850, had the X-ray at 9:00 AM. The GP saw me again at 9:10. That's insane with the result already there. That if that was with your kid, you would have been there for hours and they would have been an absolute nightmare. Like just no, that's that never happened. Never. Was the universe saying, yeah, I've got your back, we know this happened, but it's your 40th, We'll get there. We'll get you there. So the GP was like, yeah, they're fractured. I'm like, yeah, I mean. Yeah, yeah.

11:34 Squished a bit of a crush fracture to one of them and so I had to go and get these absolutely revolting looking splints from the chemist before I could go and see the hand surgeon on Monday. So anyway, I was like Oh no worries, I'm just not going to wear the splints to my party because. You said that to me. I was like, there's oh, but they looked. Terrible and I had to get outfit going on. But to like to me, yeah, whole outfit thing's one one thing. But you can't be in that amount of pain trying to drink.

12:08 Yeah, put the priorities like in place here. Well, in the end I had to put them on because I bloody knocked them at one point and I was I Well, it nearly made me vomit. Yeah. So anyway, it's all good. My fingers are broken. Four to six weeks and they'll be fine. Don't know. Where Ollie gets it, don't know. Nah, Nah, I don't. Know poor accident prone little child. Yeah, anyway, but the actual party was so much fun. I had the best night. It was really, really good fun. Good. I was eating McDonald's in bed at 2:00 PM the next day.

12:40 So that kind of gives you a bit of an idea about how fun it was. I pulled a muscle on the dance floor, yes. The next day, say, Meg's like, oh, feeling it, feeling it. But it wasn't a hangover. It was a pull muscle. Muscle in my stomach. I love it, I love it. It's so good. Oh God, Oh no. It was such a fun night. The cocktails were on point. Yeah. Did you have one of those cocktails where they put that, like, bubble on top? No, that's rude. They had one of those like little gum things. It's like a bubble.

13:09 But I was like, what do I do with it? Do I pop it? Do I suck in the cubes? I actually don't know. You know, every time, like everyone else would come and go, I got the bubble and I'm like, no. I think you need every task for the bubble maybe, Maybe. I wasn't. I was pretty different for the drink rather. Than yeah like it's gonna take longer to get my drink I don't want to fucking bubble thing just take the. Spicy Mark, Thanks. Yeah, yeah, that's what I was drinking most of the night. Yeah, yeah, I figured it was just not.

13:38 Maybe that only went with another drink. It wasn't maybe the spicy mug that. Got the Bobby maybe I, I actually have no idea. No, no, no idea. Anyway, that was lots of fun and then it was my mum's 70th the next day. So happy 70th mum. Happy birthday, Lynn. Couple of days ago, we're actually going away this weekend for her 70th as a family, so that'll be fun. Yeah, it's been a big, big week in our family. Yeah. Always get to share the milestone birthdays with my mum. Yeah, that's I'm the same with my dad.

14:07 Are you? Yeah, but he's 40 years older than me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's funny. It's it's good though when you get to say it's. Good. Yeah, it's very good. Very. Special. Yep. I've got a few shout outs for today. Oh yeah. God. Now I've got to find my shout outs for there. I was just saying to you before we started. My notes are everywhere for this one. So anyway, that's fine. We're doing our best. We're we're fine. We're good. We are shouting out today. We've got Nikki, Egan, Wilson, Tessa, Kirsty, Kim, O'Loughlin, Emily and Stacey.

14:37 Thank you very much for all your comments and likes and engagement with us on on all of the different types of media. So through Spotify and also through Instagram and Facebook. And then we have a very special shout out to Sophie Victory, who she said she's bought us quite a number of coffees. So thank you so much, Sophie. We really appreciate it. Really. She said that she listens to a lot of podcasts, and ours is her favorite. So thank you, Sophie. That means so much to us. Like, we love listening to podcasts, too.

15:10 Yeah. So the fact that we're your favorite, I know. My God. Thank you. It feels. Really. Special. Yeah, no, it's awesome. We're getting so much engagement in all, all platforms and stuff at the moment and yeah, such lovely messages that we're getting in boxes and stuff. It's just so nice. So yeah, we love it. Thank you everyone, everyone. Yeah. Thank you very, very much. We really, really and truly appreciate. It I think we got our our first bit of trolling the other night too, which was pretty hilarious.

15:39 I love it. What? Was the comments again. Podcast sucks. Podcast. Sucks. They're like, oh, we know, we've made it, I. Love that I think that. People will take the time to comment like if you don't like it, just move on, Move on. Don't listen, OK? Great not. Not that it affects us, not at all. We could not care less. But actually, you know what? We actually really appreciate the comment. Naked, good, bad or ugly, we'll take him to. Fix the algorithm up for us. Yeah, that's right it. Also just makes me go like, you know, I feel like you've made it when you're getting trolled.

16:12 Like, you know, it actually there's that, that it is another level of, yeah, you know, of spreading the, the, the the podcast out there. So. Oh. For sure. I love it for sure. Thanks. Thank you. Another development that's happened this week. So this is actually gonna come out a few weeks later. So we we are a little bit late to the party on this one, but mushroom lady, oh, Erin Patterson. So we're recording this on a Wednesday night. The verdict came out on Monday. Monday and I had like an absolute moment because I I had it on alerts right to like the like, because I'm like, this has got to come eventually.

16:46 It's 11 days of them being deliberating. It was in the end, Oh, I thought. It was 6 pretty. Sure, it was 11. No, it was quite a while, but I had it on. Yeah, I had it on alert so that it would come through. That was happening. And then so I got this alert saying, you know, like 25 minutes or something, and then, yeah, it was coming through. And I'm like, Oh my God, Oh my God. I have a spa treatment booked. It's not gonna you're not gonna go into that. Relax. I know. I'm. Pending. Oh my God, I'm so like, I don't care if it means that the treatment goes like I lose some of my treatment time.

17:17 I need to just hear the guilty, not guilty, Yeah, whatever that is. And then I can go into the treatment. Yeah, like I don't need to hear all of it. I just need that snippet of information prior. And it was like my appointment was 230, but it was meant to come through at 2:15, the announcement. But you know, they always like take a bit longer. And I'm like, well thank God this bar is like very close to my. Seconds from your house, yeah. Thank God I can like literally walk out this door with one minute spare and I will still get there in time.

17:44 Yeah, Oh my God. But so it was close. It was a close call, but I got to listen to their verdict and then out the door. I mean, it was such a short verdict. It only went for three minutes, just under 3 minutes, so that was incredible. Unbelievable. But I mean, it's, we're going to have to, we will absolutely cover this case so much because there's so much. I was reading an opinion article about this today and the commentator basically said, and it was Annabelle Crabbe. I bloody love her, but she basically said in a in a media landscape that is already saturated with mushroom content, it would be remiss of me not to add my opinion.

18:28 Yeah, basically. And I'm like, yeah, OK, that's how I feel too. But I feel like we'll probably cover this after she's been sentenced. So it might be months and months yet before we decide to cover. Yeah. No, we want it to be all. I mean, we've got appeals potentially. I don't. My gut instinct is that they may not appeal so, but yeah. She has 28 days, days after sentencing to appeal and sentencing could be. No, no, 28 days from. No, it's from sent fiction, isn't it? No, it's from sentencing. So she's actually got potentially sentencing might not happen for a few months.

19:00 I thought they'd do the sentencing. No. After the appeals process had been had passed, no. So OK, cool. She can appeal after. Sentencing after sentencing. All right. Cool. So it's got a mention coming up in August. Yeah. So that's I think that's what they're hoping will turn into a sentencing. No, no, that'll be, that is what they call it, a Yeah. It's just to just to mention basically so that the judge can hear from both sides to say what they think the sentence should be. Then he's got time to go back and reconsider.

19:31 They do be victim impact statements then, I believe so, yeah. OK, that's maybe what I got confused with the air call. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm intrigued to. I mean, to me, it's life. At least one, if not 3. She's, you know, she's been convicted of three murders. Yeah. And, and, and an attempted murder. Yeah. I feel like that wouldn't be an unreasonable sentence to expect. No, it's gotta be life. But yeah, yeah. So we'll see what happens. But I mean, yeah, as I say, appeals process could still play out, but I don't know.

20:01 My gut instinct is that from what? The lawyers, the lawyers didn't come out straight after the conviction and say this isn't OK, We're gonna keep. We're gonna, let's keep going. So they were. They were pretty much. I'm out the door. I think that's very telling. Yeah, I think that's very telling, Martin. Said straight away that they're going to. They've got a plan of. Attorney yeah, that's right, because they're gonna have to scrutinize the entire proceedings if they're gonna find. To try and find what they could appeal.

20:25 But to be fair, I feel like Justice Beal did an amazing job, especially with that, you know, 6 days of instruction to the jury. Yeah. How could they even pick holes in that? I don't. Know no, I just can't. Imagine that they could. Every I was dotted, every team was crossed. I think it was very, it was done very well the trial in that aspect. And so and then on the side of both the defence and the prosecution, I think both did a good job of presenting cases and trying to present reasonable doubt.

20:54 I think that that's that was definitely done well by the defence, but not well enough because the evidence was there. That's right. So absolutely the prosecution put their case well and truly forward. Yeah. So I think I don't think there's really grounds for an appeal. But we'll, I mean, you never, you never know. Tell we might even know by the time this case, but by the time this episode is I'm. Not sure. Yeah. I wonder what they'll, whether they'll come out and announce it. You know, as in like, no, we're not going to appeal or you know, we're planning to.

21:20 It's coming. So it'd be interesting to see if you get we get ongoing information. But I love the ongoing little snippets here and there of like, OK, well, clearly there's going to be like a Netflix movie or whatever, so who's going to play it? Oh, who do you think? I have some frontrunners. OK, go well. My first pick is if she was well enough, Magda Szymanski. Oh. I just don't know that I could take it. Because my other? No. Because my other one. Of my I love Magda yeah, I love. I think she's she's amazing, but I just can't imagine her in that role because I feel like I just want to laugh like because.

22:02 My other one of like that similar vague but even more it would have to be a piss take is Chris Lily.

22:13 I think he'd do a great. Maybe in a couple of years when the Dusters said he should bring out his own.

22:24 But apparently, like I've heard that there are certainly documentarians down there capturing everything down in Morwell over this trial period. So I feel like there there will absolutely be something. I mean, the fact that the interest in this is worldwide. It's not just Victoria where we live, it is worldwide. People are fascinated by this and the fascination comes from the fact that it is such a rare thing to happen. She's a woman. Serial killers are generally not women. Well, at the moment she actually fits into the category of mass murderer, not.

23:02 Serial, that's true because she hasn't killed four people, but has she well well, actually, that is fair all right, we're not going to talk about that right now so there's that right. There's the fact that women don't poison people generally, unless it's a spouse. Yeah, but women are more likely to poison than men. That's true. Yeah. She's murdered her in laws, that is murdered her in laws, and in law what? I think that's what, yeah, I mean it. Does murder on the uncle in law? Obviously, no motive was given at the trial.

23:35 You know, as a well, any potential motive was sort of not presented, which you don't have to. And that's, you know, that's completely fine. But when you think about it in terms of that, like if she was targeting particular people but ended up targeting people that I don't know that she had any who had no stake in the game, you know what I mean? Like she had no. Oh, I can't wait. To actually talk to you about this freely, yeah, there's, there's a lot that we probably can't say at the moment because we don't wanna put things out there that could in any way jeopardise anything that's to come.

24:11 And look, we're not we're not deluded. We know that we're a little fish in a very, very, very, very massive oh shit. But we're still very conscious and we want to do the right thing. So we're going to wait until all of the proceedings are done. Yeah, everything's done and dusted and then we will present this case. And jump in. Definitely jump in. I can't wait for it actually. They are the same because at the end of the day, we do need to think of like the victims in this and which the victims are those that have died, the guy who was nearly murdered as well as her ex-husband who wasn't there but didn't fall ill.

24:44 But he's still a victim in this. But then there's her kids and, you know, and just the the rest of the family. Staff at the hospitals and all that. The far reaching impact of this, I think is actually probably unknown. Yeah, I know we heard from so many witnesses in the court proceedings. Yeah, But, you know, that was, what was it, 50 odd people, I think that would have affected all of them in some way. But that wouldn't even come close to, you know, the change in the community of Lingatha, the people who, you know, they've lost pillars of their community that that changed the landscape for them.

25:18 So that doesn't go unnoticed. And we absolutely acknowledge that. And I think when whenever we're talking about things like this, we always try and keep the victims in the forefront of our mind and. They have got lost in this one a little bit, I think, I think. So I think so because of the sensationalism of it. And like, you know, the memes are funny, but very funny. And also they are, they're great and people. Are so clever. Oh yeah. But then at the end of the day, three people have died and one person almost died.

25:50 And then? And he's probably got ongoing medical issues from what happened. I mean, he would, yeah. And there's two kids now without a mom. You know, that's horrific. And. Could have lost their dad. When you really put a thing, when you think. About it. So, you know, Well, there's some joviality to it. Yeah. We also acknowledge the fact that it's heavy. Oh yeah. And we don't wanna take away from that. Not, not. Definitely not. So on that note, should we get into today's case? Today's one's a good one in that like, it's so different, so.

26:20 So different, so well, first of all, I think this is our first case from a non-english speaking country. True, true. And so today we are talking about the Butcher of Delhi. So Chandrakant Jha mm hmm. There is a Netflix documentary about this case and it's really interesting. Now I need to know. Yeah. Did you watch it with subtitles or dubbed? No, I watched the dubbed one. Yeah, not the subtitle. Which did you do? So I did the first two episodes I did subtitled, and then there's only three episodes.

26:57 Yeah, the third episode I did dubbed. I was so impressed. With the dubbing. The dubbed. I then went back and looked at certain bits of episode 1 and 2 with the dubbing and I'm like they have done a really good job. Incredible. Well, I mean, The thing is that got me a little bit was with the dubbing, was that there were quite a number of people in it who spoke English. Yeah. And they even dubbed them, Yeah. Which I get from a point of like a thick accent, you know, all that sort of thing can help.

27:22 Can make it hard to understand sometimes. So they've dubbed it, but yeah, so. Listening OK, so as because I watched the 1st 2 with subtitles, even when the people who were speaking English came on, I had to read the subtitles because I couldn't understand yes and it was more like a dialect thing and the the the way they talked them really threw me like it was not it wasn't the way I'm used to listening to people speak. So I found that I needed to still read the subtitles anyway. So I get why they dubbed yeah of English.

27:54 Yeah, yeah. No good choice. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I definitely. I mean the dubbing was spot on like it was so good. I I mean, there's plenty of like shows with dub and I can't watch. Oh, you can't just can't. Like there's a few recently that I've watched that have been Dockos or anything that I've watched of dubs and it's like, Oh no, no, it just throws me entirely. Can't watch. Whereas that you could literally watch or listen like both and just be engrossed in it and what? And that's not actually think about it at all.

28:22 Did you find you were engrossed in it though? No, no. Same. There were particular it went up and down. Yeah, I did. They did lose me. It beats a particularly episode 2. Yeah, I feel like I almost almost didn't need episode 2. You could watch. It in one episode to. Be I just wonder whether like Netflix have done it in a you know, it's been sold as a you need a three parter and they had to create a three parter about something that's maybe not got enough in it to make it a three parter. Yeah. But the people they had speaking in it was were very knowledgeable, oh, incredibly intelligent people.

28:57 Absolutely. The one that got me a little bit was, I can't think of her name now, but she was like a professor and I believe she had like a psychology background and she spoke mainly around. Yeah, the psychology of of, Oh God, I'm gonna, as I said to you. Chandra Khan Chandra Khan We we we apologize in advance. We big time. This case is set in India. There are so many Indian names. We are. Going to places. And places we are going to do our best to pronounce them, but we, we're really, really sorry if we butcher it.

29:28 We oh. Yeah, there we go, said to you. Butcher. Butcher it. Like totally. Really sorry if we do we're we truly are doing our best. I was like, can we call him Jar? We can call him Jar because so Chandrakant Jar is his name. Yeah, full name. So yeah, he, she sort of spoke about his, the psychology of him and all these sorts of things. And she was very intelligent and but I don't know what her connection to the case was, as in what did she work the case at the time or is she just looked at this after the fact?

30:01 Well see, I got the impression she worked the case. See, I don't know that she did and this I kind of at the end of it kind of went OK, I don't really get where, but where's she where are you in this? Like where did you get brought in? Like yeah, where's the I mean, obviously the police officers and things that that spoke, you know what their role was in it. Yeah, like yeah, yeah. But yes, that's. The interesting one, I I wasn't, I have to say I'm, I wasn't a massive fan of the documentary. I love me a true crime documentary, obviously.

30:31 I mean, the fact that we do this podcast, yeah, I, this one just didn't really hook me in. No, I, I found myself listening and then tuning out and doing things, which often with a doco, a true crime doco, I don't tune out. I'm engrossed the whole time. Yep. Yeah. Whereas this one I did. I was in and out, in and out. It took. It took me a week to watch the three episodes. Like I really struggled with it, I think because it was so slow and I feel as though they were building to something, but there was never any real.

31:08 Like nothing ever fully hit home. Like it just, I don't know. To me, it wasn't what I was expecting and not what I'd probably come to expect from a Netflix documentary, to be honest. No, very different format I think. Yeah, yeah, I agree. No. But anyway, let's get into the case and and if people want to know more you can watch the documentary. However, I have to say when I was researching this, there is a huge amount of other information. And I did wonder a little bit on that is, is that because I'm looking in English?

31:41 Like maybe if I spoke a different language, if I spoke, I'm guessing Hindi is my, what I speak that like if I was looking in Hindi, then maybe I would find more. And maybe it was just that the fact that I was obviously it was like my Google search is gonna find me all the English stuff, language stuff. Yeah. Although I did find court documents and things like that and they were in English. So I don't know. I don't know what, what? Yeah. Which is I felt like, I felt, I feel like I've got holes in this like that I haven't filled.

32:09 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there are some gaps. And I wonder whether that's because that information is just possibly never been released. I feel like if Netflix, if that documentary couldn't plug those gaps, then maybe the information is not freely available. Yeah, yeah, I feel, I feel exactly the same way. And then also the timeline of events in certain things, I've found a lot of discrepancy. So there's some police files you can you can see online and their timeline does not match up with what's then presented in the documentary and then.

32:43 That would be a little bit to do with their legal system though, too, because what happens there is so in a police interview you you can sit there and confess and tell them everything about the crime that you've done. None of that can be used in court unless they find evidence to prove it. So like here in Australia, if you that that interview that you did with the police officers would be used as evidence. That's not the case in India. It cannot be used as evidence you they have to externally find all the evidence.

33:18 Yeah, because apparently, you know, you could essentially go to court then recant your confession. Yes. And they would have no leg to stand on. So they wouldn't even bring anything to prosecution unless they've got solid evidence. Yeah. That's why this case is very strange, I think. I mean, for us, from our perspective, because we've got I guess the Australian legal system or maybe the Western world's legal system, in our minds, it seems bizarre, but you're right, it's we need to make sure we're looking at this from the lens of the Indian judicial system and the way they work.

33:54 So you're absolutely right. So they cannot prosecute somebody unless they've got physical evidence to prove the crime. Yeah. But I feel like maybe there's information that you're getting that could be from those interviews. Yeah. But then, you know, what they've had they've been able to present at court is slightly different because of the evidence they've gained. So yeah, that's where I think we get a few things that don't marry. Up. Yeah, I think you're. Right. Whereas in our system, we think we tie that up a lot more for sure.

34:18 Yeah. For sure. All right, let's get into it. So Chandrakancha was from the village of Gosay in Baha, and he was born to Rati Kant JA and Champa Devi. So ready. Ready was his dad and Champa Devi was his mum. He grew up in an incredibly poor family, Very, very, very, very poor family. His mum was a school teacher I believe, although she never provided any type of education for her sons. He was one of six children to his mum and dad. I think he was the 6th. I think he was the youngest in the family and they were all boys.

35:03 Oh my God, Can you imagine having six boys? I can't even like 2 is 2 is enough. 2 is enough. The fact that my 2 just were bashing each other 5 minutes ago. Imagine having six of them and they were all pretty close in age. I believe the I actually can't. Do you know what his dad did for work? No, because I'm about 3 different places. I had three different answers to that question, so. Because I couldn't find it either. Yeah, I've got in one place where it said that he worked in the irrigation department.

35:33 Oh, I did. See that? Yeah. But then I've got other ones that said very different information too so. So his dad was employed, Yeah, but they lived on the poverty line, according to lots of different people from their village. So they they lived in a village, they lived in mud brick type houses with no floors. That was like dirt floors. They lived a very, very basic life. They had no plumbing and they certainly had want for a lot of what we would consider in the Western world, basic life necessities like a flushing toilet and that kind of thing.

36:12 That that sort of certainly wasn't their experience. So their upbringing with six kids to care for, six boys to care for. Nonetheless, Chandrakant and his siblings were really left to fend for themselves because their mom was actually quite neglectful. Their dad was out working and he would apparently again in whatever work it was that he did, he would actually have to leave the family village and the family home to go and do whatever it was that he did for work. And his mum, who was trained as a school teacher, actually didn't work after she had children, which I believe was quite customary of the time.

36:57 And but she also then really neglected her children to the point where they would often go hungry unless they found food for themselves. And when I say found food, they had to steal food from other people or steal food from markets and that kind of thing. They, she didn't ever hug them. There was no physical contact. And they, I just feel like they, the six of those boys just really grew up in a really neglectful environment. You. Know, in an impoverished nation,

37:36 you can't provide your children food. That would be horrific. But you can always hug your kid. You can always kiss them. You can always provide that physical comfort. But she just never had that. Apparently she was a really hard woman. Yeah. People from the village were scared of her and wouldn't approach her. She was, I mean, she must have had issues of her own like. Sounds like it, yeah. Yeah. So apparently she was quite contentious and would always get in a fight, like if somebody came and approached them, she was sort of always, always there.

38:11 Formal education was a luxury that none of the children were able to experience. And so from a fairly, I think, I think Chandrakant went to school up until year 8. But that was that was it. Yeah. And then after that, the expectation was that he would go out and get a job and provide for the family, the rest of the family, as as was the responsibility of the seven older brothers of his. Yeah. In order to do that, he decided to make his way. Oh, by the way, he was born in like 1967. 1967 I couldn't find a birth date date but yeah 1967.

38:49 Yeah, sorry. So after he'd finished year eight, he tried to find employment, I think, in their village, but there wasn't a lot going around and he'd actually already been involved in some pretty serious crimes. Now, none of these are being prosecuted, none of them are proven or anything like that. But in the documentary, they interview a man who was of similar age to Char and that he basically says that he'd killed people in the village for, you know, not helping him with things or he, he had this strong sense of what he thought was right or wrong.

39:29 And if anyone stepped outside that, then he fucking murdered them. Yeah, don't worry about what murder says. About you but. And people knew this of him but they were too scared of him to approach him in any way or, you know or to you know call him out. Yeah yeah or. You know, and there was interesting relationships with people who lived in these poverty sort of stricken areas and police. So they weren't able to even really have police officers come and. Look at this. No, it wasn't. I mean, there's a lot of corruption as well.

39:59 Yeah, he did get married in the village not long before he left there. But then he and his wife, apparently, she moved up north. He moved to Delhi. That relationship just dissolved like there was no, yeah, no children were born of that relationship. I believe it was an arranged marriage that just went. Nowhere. Yeah, right. He then met a second wife, they went on to have five daughters. So he's come from a family of six boys to then go on and have 5 girls. That would have been a bit of a bit of a difference, a bit of a shake up.

40:31 But the weird thing is, so he'd moved to Delhi by this point. By the time he'd met his second wife, he housed them in a he. So he lived in a certain part of Delhi. He housed them on the outskirts of Delhi. He never, ever, ever ever lived with his wife and children. That's really intriguing. Isn't it? Because that's, that was a bit where I, I kind of got a bit confused as to how well, where's his wife and his kids now? Like it was almost like that together. Oh God, so he just didn't have a relationship with them?

41:04 No, not until they were older, right? So when he when they were young, he had no. Nothing to do with them at all. See, that's his mum coming out with that, you know, like distance. Yeah. For. Sure. Aside from sending them money, yeah, that was. It OK. So financially he would support. Them, well, I don't know how well he did, yeah, but he certainly did. I know he sent them money. Yeah, he did support them in some way financially there. Yeah, gosh. It's it's really such a fascinating dynamic. I just can't imagine living like that.

41:38 No, no, he was working. He was working in Delhi. And so we were talking about this just before we hit record, actually, because they call anybody who wasn't born in Delhi, who immigrates to Delhi, an immigrant. Yeah. And so he moved. The town that he grew up in was 900 kilometers from Delhi, and when he moved there, he was an immigrant and he was seen as less than because of the village that he came from. He was seen as uneducated, as a lower class, a lower caste. Due to just where he grew up and the color of his skin.

42:15 He had much darker skin than a lot of the people that lived in Delhi at the time, or probably still do. And so people knew also by the way he spoke and the way he wrote, yes, and by his dialect, that he wasn't from Delhi and that that made him less. Lesser, yeah, yeah. And they also apparently what happens is when you move like into Delhi from out of out of villages, they tend to still find people from their own village and stay within those sort of groups because everyone is a bit like, well, you're not from here.

42:45 You're you're an immigrant. You're so it is quite segregated, kind of, you know, parts of the the city like that, that you, you sort of stick with your, your village people. And yeah, so they don't, you know, mix in. So they come to Delhi and just be part of the the makeup of it. Yeah. I found that really interesting that it wasn't. I thought that it would be more, you know, you come to Delhi to chase your dreams because it's the capital and everyone's there doing the same thing, like. But it seemed like that that didn't really change that much for you.

43:16 Yes, it was more opportunities for work, but you were still considered the lonely, you know? Yeah, it wasn't. It didn't immediately change the status, that's for sure. Yeah. OK. Yeah. He. He was working in a fruit and veg market, Yes. And stealing various bits and pieces to then sell later at night. Him for himself. Yeah. And there was a man by the. Oh gosh, what was his name? Sorry, I'm going to get it. But they. So they basically had like the head of that area of the fruit and veg. So this guy's name was Pandit.

43:52 Yeah. And he would come around and he was actually like paying off the police as well. So it was a very corrupt kind of situation. But all of the fruit and veg stall holders had to pay Pandit a certain amount of money, I guess, you know, to keep them safe or to keep them there. I really don't know. And he would pay. So Chandrakant would pay this money to Pandit, and then Pandit decided that he would actually take all of their money and then decide how much he would give back to them or to live. And this pissed Chandrakant off no end.

44:31 Yeah, I get that. Oh, yeah. He's already living a pretty tough life by this stage. He did have a place. He did have like AAI guess, a house, again, very rudimentary in terms of what we probably think of houses in in this day and age, but or in Australia for sure. And I know people in India and in lots of developing countries around the world still live like this. He lived in a slum essentially and would allow friends of his to come and stay with him and his employees to come and stay with him. He actually paid his employees in food and board, not in money.

45:17 So these people were literally there to eat and have a roof over their heads and nothing more. They were never going to. Be weren't going to get better yeah that's that's such a yeah doesn't work that system doesn't I mean you can't make make better for yourself, can you and no. But I don't think there's potentially for these people. There was no other opportunity. This was it for them. So the fact that JA had gotten himself into a position where he was kind of in charge of that, I mean, I guess to some extent good on him.

45:48 You know, he's he's kind of gotten in at that level. Interesting one. Very much so. Yeah, so this, I mean, I guess you can tell by the name of the the documentary, The Butcher of Delhi. Pandit ended up becoming the first known victim of JAR. Yeah, in 1998. So Jar also goes by the name of Mangal. But everyone knew him as Pandit. Yeah, he had been. So Pandit had been, well, according to JAR, had been tormenting him essentially and demanding he give him more money. It was a sort of a financial control.

46:38 He. So this was a bit of an altercation where Pandit had asked for money Jar had a knife because he was cutting up fruit or vegetables or something and had cut Pandit's hand. And because Pandit had a tie in with the police because he would pay off the police. Yeah. Pandit basically went to the police and said he stabbed me. The police normally would never have done anything about that, but because it was panned at making the complaint, they arrested Jar and he went to prison for four years. I. Think yeah, it was released in 2002.

47:17 Was it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he spent time in what was the name of the prison. Tara Prison. It was a maximum security prison. Huge. I looked it up on Google Maps because I'm like, I need to get a, a visual idea of how big this place is because there's like all these gates and all that. It is like a village in and of itself. There are so many people in there. I couldn't actually get an accurate count because I don't think they know. Well, I mean, when 500 murders happen every year in Delhi, just in Delhi, just in Delhi, yeah.

47:52 I mean, this is the thing. The population that we're talking about is huge. I mean 5. Billion people in India. Yeah, I mean, 500 saying 500 murders are happening in Delhi, that's probably the most in the world happening in a year in one place. No, but it's actually per capita, not that bad. That bad. Yes, sorry, sorry. By volume, by volume, what you're saying? Yes, but per capita it's normal. It's. Yeah, by per capita actually, it's actually not terrible. No, it's just. I linked the. Calculations because I was interested, yeah.

48:20 So I was only able to get the stats in Australia. The latest I was able to get was 2003. There were 409 murders in Australia in 2003, right? Which is .00002% in India. In that same year there were 30,000 murders. 30,000 murders. Yeah. But that only represented .00003%. Yeah, so. .00001% more than Australia. However, crimes in India are wildly underreported. Yes, in some areas it's estimated that up to 80% of murders are not actually reported to the police, or if they are reported to the police, they do nothing about.

49:11 It which is like what we're talking about with in terms of jar, in terms of back of in his village, yeah, he quite possibly killed a number of. People, well, they're saying it could be like 40 people he killed in his village that no one is talking about. No one is. No one knows. Where the bodies are or what's? Going on. Well, I mean, there's a reason why they don't know who the bodies are. Yeah, but we'll get to it. Yeah, Yeah. That's just insane that there's yeah, there's, there's. They're not reported.

49:40 And so therefore, there's a whole lot more going on than what. Yeah, what we know. But the size of the population just means that this is it's just a splash in the ocean like it's not. But for us in Australia, we've got enough police resources to investigate 409 murders across the country in a year. Yeah. Well, do we? We could do small, absolutely. We absolutely could do with more and I'm sure all the homicide detectives are probably like we need more resources. Of course you do, yeah. But imagine having 30,000 to investigate in a year.

50:19 Yeah, that's 805A day on average or something like that. Yeah, it's insane. Yeah, crazy. It's insane. There is no way. And that is just the murders that are reported and exactly try to be investigated. That's not every other one. That's not. So that's where we're at. Yeah. So Java's released in 2002 from that altercation with Pandit because of lack of evidence. There was again, we kind of came to this bit where, you know, there actually wasn't any evidence. The eyewitnesses decided not to talk and not to corroborate.

50:54 So at this point, when he came out of prison, he transitioned from selling vegetables to dealing in like plastic goods. He also would rob, like, television stores and then sell TV's or whatever from electronic stores that he sold. And this is my favorite bit. He took up karate. Yeah. At this point to, you know, really be able to defend himself. Wow. Oh. God, just stay away from me. Stay away, so And around this time he actually murdered Pandit as well. So that was in 2002, right? I believe. So I think so.

51:38 Yeah, again, dates are sketchy. Dates are sketchy. Yeah, it's. Well, sorry, I was just going to say while he was in prison, when he, sorry, we'll find out that later, more so about this, but he claims that whilst he was in prison that he was tormented and humiliated by guards. And I mean, I can only imagine, like, the prison would have been pretty hard to live in. And he was there for four years, that it wouldn't have been a nice place to be, I dare say. And knowing what the corruption of the cops are like on the streets, I can just imagine what the guards would be like in a prison and how people would be treated in there.

52:17 I mean, we, I mean, not that I don't even want you to have been. If you've been convicted of murders and things like that, I don't think that you need to be treated, you know, but like, like a Prince. Yeah. But. But yeah, there's also human rights. That's right. But I don't believe those basic human rights are necessarily being met at times in these in this prison. So we should just sort of say that's that sort of, you know, he he claims that really, you know, twisted him a bit, but I think it was already there.

52:44 Absolutely. He was already there. Yeah, in June of 2003, he committed what we, I guess is and what we think is his second murder. I mean, as we said, there's potentially dozens, if not 10's and 10s of murders before this. Yes, But he took the life of one of his associates named Shikhar. Yep, he said she. So he he just, he had this MO for all of his killings. Yeah, All of his murders, it was when he felt people were immoral or did something that he didn't approve of. Killing's fine, obviously. Yeah, don't worry about killing.

53:22 That's not. No, no, he justified that because they had. Wronged. They had wronged him. And it could have been very the world minimal amount some. Of the things he killed people for, we'll get to that. His reason? Terrible. Yeah, Yeah. He said Shaka was an alcoholic and he said he was deceit, deceitful about money. Apparently, he char thought that he'd stolen money from him. Whether or not he had I I don't know. Yeah, after the murder, he actually disposed of Shikar's body in a storage drain in Delhi, in Alipur, in Delhi.

53:57 He'd already started dismembering them at that point, yes. Yes. So this was the first body that he'd attempted to dismember, right? But he disposed of the whole body together in this instance in November of 2003. So a few months later he then murdered his Co worker umesh for dishonesty and betrayal. This time he further dismembered the body and left it wrapped in a plastic sack in front of the Tahar jail's gate #1 So this was the jail that he'd spent that four years in, and he actually had wrapped the body in newspaper and then plastic and left it in a basket.

54:45 I. Believe. Yeah. Yeah, it was in a basket. Like a in a food type basket that they would take to say the market to gather all of their food. Yeah. And he left it in front of the jail and nobody really even knew what was inside of it. No. In October of 2005, he killed Gudu due to his disapproval of Gudu's extravagant lifestyle. Whatever that means, I don't really know because Gadu was another associate of his who never earned money from from JAR, just earned food and a roof over his head. He said he was a gun, just smoker.

55:23 Yep. That second time that word's come up in an episode recently, yes. And so he really disapproved of that. Gadu's body was discovered near Slub in northwest Delhi. Right. And he was dismembered. But again, his body was all in the same spot. All of his bits and pieces were all in the same spot. After this murder, things started escalating. Yeah. He murdered his associate Amit Mandal for his womanizing behavior. Oh. Yeah. How dare he? I believe Amit had actually tried to crack on to one of his daughters, actually.

56:06 OK, So he was in contact with them at that stage, he. Was in contact with them at this stage. They were older by then. Yeah. His children were teenagers, if not in their early 20s by this stage. And I mean, this man was the same age as them. Like he was young too. Yeah. But obviously char didn't like that. And that's something that like was being, I was speaking about on a podcast that I, I'm a listen to called Crime Scene. It was a very interesting take on these things because what they had was it's there's an Australian woman who, who's in it as well as two Americans.

56:39 OK, one of them is from, she's from Oklahoma, but she has, she's an Indian. It has Indian heritage. She speaks Hindi, you know, so she watched the, the, the three-part documentary in Hindi. Oh, OK, no subtitles. No, you know, no dubbing. And also watch the dubbed version in English, right, Which I'll come back to in terms of her, some of her interpretations of things that then that might show up. But also what she spoke about really interestingly was that in India, like women are kind of thought of as a bit of a second class citizen.

57:14 And that she, she was quite surprised by these, these serial killings being of young men, because typically this kind of, you know, harm would be done to women, you know, whereas being done to men is it was, is very unusual. So I guess in general across, you know, across the world, that is the case. I mean, more likely women are going to be attacked than, than men. But he didn't target a single female, which I find that very interesting. Then he's had daughters as well. And whether that's like, and it was his mum who was cruel to him, like, but he hasn't targeted females.

57:48 He has gone for men in targeting for all of his victims. That's really, that is actually really fascinating. Yeah, I've got some notes. We'll get to them in a bit. But I did read an analysis by an Indian psychiatrist about him. She does state that he has never had any psychometric testing or anything like that because it's not actually generally part of what they go through for their judicial inquiries or any, any part of that judicial system. So right, the person has to be willing to undertake that independently.

58:24 OK. And obviously he hasn't done that not, but she said in everything that she's seen of him, read of him, she's done an, an analysis. I'll, I'll read that to you in, in a little bit because that was really fascinating to, to see it from her perspective and what she thinks the trigger points were. Yeah, yeah. So Amit is dismembered completely his head, arms and legs and were dismembered and deposited elsewhere the remaining body. So basically his torso. Also his penis was cut off. Yes, the torso was left in front of the Tahar jail again.

59:08 Mm hmm. The rest of his body parts were actually left in front of a courthouse which was about 20 kilometres up the road. It was the Tis Hissari Courthouse. It took him a long time to work out who this body was, 'cause obviously finding it as a torso with no head like penis, all those sorts of things. Yeah, not that I think you could identify corpse by their penis, No, that's true. But the head could be handy I guess to identify handy someone. And also we've got to probably put into account as well.

59:39 So in India in the two early 2000s, not a lot of CCTV, if if any, you know, some of the bigger department stores in the city had CCTV that was about it. Yeah. There was no, you know, sort of mobile phone sort of coverage or things that were necessarily taken in that respect either. Yeah. So investigating this was really, really difficult for the police as well. Yes. In April 2007, he took the life of a person named Upenda. Due to his involvement with this time, it was with one of Jah's daughter's friends.

1:00:20 After the murder, again he dismembered the body and placed him in front of the court in Delhi. Again, his whole body. This time he was dismembered, so he was in pieces, but his whole body was placed there aside from his head again, actually, I think. So this was it, Gate 3 again, Gate three. Yeah. So the other interesting thing about this one is when they found this body, it was tightly wrapped into this basket with this string around it so tightly that the the officers couldn't cut it open to see what was inside Like.

1:00:51 So they were, and they basically like, and some guy randomly just went, oh, I've got this, I'll help you and Cut the Rope. Right. Turns out that was JA who did that, who later on it, you know, said, well, yeah, that was me. That was me. I so stupid. I cut that open for you. Yeah, because. I knew how it was how. Brazen of him to like be right there as the police are finding this body and like, you know, at this point too of the investigation they were they were sort of a bit knowledgeable of who this could take potentially could be and he's standing freaking right there.

1:01:27 Oh, it's it's brazen. A month after that killing jar killed his friend Dilip. Dilip ate non vegetarian food and that. Really upset him. That was what triggered him to kill him. Yeah, yeah. Yep, he also placed his body in front of the Tahar jail #3 gate #3 on the 18th of May. Now, this one was a little bit different because he'd been placing all of these bodies in front of the jail as AI think it was a way to draw attention or gets I I don't even really understand the motive, I guess. But he wanted it to be known that he was smarter than them.

1:02:10 Oh yeah, and he knew more than them and he they could never catch him. But they hadn't even really put together to be fair, they hadn't really even put together that all of these crimes were related because different police units investigated each different thing and they didn't have a cohesive I don't even know if they do to this day. I'm I'm sure it's different, but back in 2000 and six, 2007, they didn't have a cohesive way of sharing information amongst their units. So no one knew that he even there was a serial killer.

1:02:47 No doing the same thing. It wasn't until so was it this case where he phoned the police and basically said I've left something out the front of your gang #3. He did that even on in the first body with the first body, he he rang one of the he rang a police officer and he left a letter as well with that body. Yes, yes, the letter was about that, where he really detailed that he was Yeah, he trauma was traumatized by his time in jail. And it kind of like from the letter, the police officers were basically like, oh, this is someone who was miss put in jail for the wrong for, you know, if not doing anything, you know that.

1:03:26 And now he's killed someone. This is like, you know, this is his first killing ever. Like, yeah. Because he said, he said in the letter, something along the lines of you put me in jail for something I didn't do. Well, now I've done. It. And now I have done what you put me in jail for, which, like, I mean, Nah, man. But yeah. So he really made out as if, you know, like, he was such an innocent man and you tortured me and humiliated me in jail. And I didn't deserve any of that. Yeah. Even just being put in jail, he wasn't deserved.

1:03:51 Didn't deserve that. And so now I've gone and done what you've accused me of kind of thing. And this is this body. But his letter was also really, like, targeted at the police and like, just in general, the disdain for them. Stupid they were. And yeah, he was so much smarter than them and they would never catch. Him. Yeah, yeah. It wasn't until I think the third body when he did make a phone call, though. He's because he would ring into the police station and he would ask for certain police officers.

1:04:18 In the end, too, he knew who to ask for and but he he let them know and said you're so stupid that you didn't even notice that on that first body admit that his name had he had tattooed his name? Yeah, into his arm. They were like, we can't find who this person is. We don't know who it is. He had his name tattooed on him like, so he was, he did sort of call him out on a few things that they weren't doing well. But yeah, they were able to, once he started calling into the, into the, into the police, they were able to track some of those phone calls and they tracked one of the, the calls that they'd been a phone not far from a like convenience sort of store.

1:04:56 So they went down there and spoke to the guy at the shop and said, have you seen anyone using that phone today? And he goes, I've seen one person make 3 phone calls, which they had had three phone calls coming to the, the jail and into the, the police officer police office that night. So they're like, this is our guy. So he did describe what it looks like to them. And they did get to get a bit of a composite drawing of what they think the guy looked like. He also described the vehicle that he was driving in.

1:05:22 So he was driving in a motorized rickshaw. Yeah, but it was like electric kind of. Yeah. He'd had noise either. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was an interesting vehicle that wasn't, I think it was, it wasn't well used like it wasn't and like it wasn't. It would have stood out a little bit, I think. He hadn't. I think the fact that it was motorized or high was. Because he had altered it in some way, it made it stand out in some way. Yeah, yeah. So when the police were now they kind of had a bit of an idea of what they were looking for, a rough area in which they were looking for this person and you know, a, a, a pretty good physical description of who they.

1:06:03 Were, but I mean, you think of Dali, I mean that the population is huge. You're still looking for a needle in a haystack to me. Like I think they were able to narrow it down as well because in his letter that he wrote that. So there were, in the end, there were two letters with two of the bodies. And they were actually able to narrow down by the language and the dialect he used with his writing that he was from Bihar. And so they kind of knew roughly what area Bihari people lived in, in Delhi because as you were saying before, they all kind of stuck together.

1:06:37 Yeah. And so they were patrolling that area. And there was a police, one of the detectives was in that area trying to, I don't know, look around. And he got got a phone call from the guy who'd just spoken to the convenience store owner and he said, look, we're looking for this motorized rickshaw that's got, I think it was like a certain color in this. And he was literally at that time standing at the front and he's like, Oh my God, that that vehicle is literally right in front of me. Like, what are the chances?

1:07:10 It's crazy. And such a. Huge. City and then that happens. What the hell? So he goes into the house that the ritual is parked in front of, and who does he find in there? Chandra Khan. Chandra Khan. Yeah. Jar. Sorry, Yeah, he is literally sitting in there eating his dinner and they rest. Him. They rest him, yeah. Take him down to the police station for questioning and yeah, they, they, he basically confesses, doesn't he? Yeah, he he does he. Doesn't really put up much of a fight. No, he's like literally when he gets into into the interview, he this is where I was saying that he unleashed he he did just told him everything.

1:07:50 He didn't hold back. He was like he wanted to get, you know, he wanted them to find him. He wanted. Them to see how great he was. So yeah, he basically said in that first police interview that he would dismember the victims bodies and scatter them remains across Delhi because that way he wouldn't be found. His death ritual typically commenced it around 8:00 PM, so he'd always do his killings at night. He would always restrain his victims. So he would tie them up, tie their legs together and tie their arms together.

1:08:27 And he would tell them that he was disciplining in them, disciplining them for whatever bad thing he'd or indiscretion he decided they they'd committed. Yeah. And he would then usually strangle them. That was the general method of murder. Yeah, I believe he did stab one of them or cut one of their jugular. Yeah, I think you're right. But I'm pretty sure the rest was strangulation, which died by strangulation. He would then, just because he'd always also commit the murders in his home. Yes. And he would then just eat his dinner and then decide whether what he'd do with the body a bit later on.

1:09:06 Because, you know, man's got to eat. This is it. Yeah, what a total piece of shit. But. He would like drive around and he's he's rickshaw and he would just toss the body parts because. Into the river to wherever they found them. All over, like all over the place. They was, you know, like, yeah, just saying like the toss only one spot. So far, can you go in a rickshaw? Because he'd go far. This way, Night motorized it so he could get around a bit a lot more because some of. Them are like 40 odd kilometers away, like a significant amount away from different towns, He.

1:09:37 Lived from yeah, it was insane. Their list of like different places they all were was crazy, unbelievable, amazing. As we say, like all of his confessions, though, like it didn't mean anything unless the police could find all the evidence. So they did do a very good job then of finding the pieces of the puzzle and well, literally in terms of the bodies and putting it all together to be able to get at least charges for three murders on him, even though we're feel like we're aware that. Was it? There's at least 7.

1:10:05 Is at least I think 18 that ultimately they they do believe they have enough evidence on of like Bade to link him to OK, but only three that was enough to be charged on right. But then when you really look at the whole timeline of his life and as you were saying, potentially 40. Yeah, you know so the number just grows. Yeah, it's. And we'll never know. Like I, I, I truly believe we will never ever know how many people he's actually killed. He notably doesn't even know. I don't think so because I think that his and we'll, I guess we, we'll talk more about his psychology of, of what he's done.

1:10:44 I don't think he thinks anything wrong of it. No, he thinks. So therefore it's not justified. He thinks he's justified in doing it because, yeah, you know, they ate a non vegetarian meal. Well, yeah, how dare they? Yeah, kill him. Not, not good. Yeah, no, I mean, thankfully he did disclose everything. I guess that helped the police in finding bits and pieces to put together all of his things. But yeah, as I say, can't, you can't charge him unless they've got evidence. So. There was. So his defence team at trial did all they could really do was try and raise reasonable doubt, and so all they did was try and discredit all of the witnesses.

1:11:22 The witnesses in the case were people who he'd attacked, who'd survived, people who'd lived with him or being close associates of him. Yeah. He then threatened them and told them that they weren't allowed to testify. But then they couldn't, not because they were otherwise implicated. And so that would have been a really horrible thing for those people to to have to do. But yeah, the only thing they could really do is try and introduce some reasonable doubt by, you know, questioning the integrity of the people who were giving evidence.

1:11:54 It stuck in some of the instances and some of the charges, but in others it didn't. And as you said, in the end he was, he was charged with those 3 murders. They did find at his place two blood stained knives and some blood stain on the floor which they were able to use in court to to link up the murders that had occurred in his home is. That the blood of the three people then. I think there was 2 that they could link to him having done that at home, whereas I don't know that they know where where he murdered the other, the third person.

1:12:26 Slash all the others, yeah, I believe mostly he did murder them at home. But I think the three the the evidence, the blood evidence in that house were just the most recent ones. It was. It was also the ones that they had like bodies of to go that matches, whereas they may have found other blood DNA and DNA but had no one to link it to like of going who's like, yeah, they didn't have the bodies. So yeah, they have because of there's certainly ones that they've never found. Yeah, so he was sentenced so on, you know, being found guilty of the three counts of murder.

1:13:01 He was then sentenced to two death sentences and life imprisonment until death in Feb of 2013, but later the death sentence was commuted to life imprisonment, imprisonment without remission, which means without parole. Which I found really interesting. Well, isn't it? Do you find the same stuff I did about him escaping? Well, he didn't escape. They let him out. Yeah. So, OK, so in 2020. No. So I've got 23 and 25. Yeah, that, that they definitely happened. Yeah. In 2020 though, he was, he asked for parole on five occasions and furlough on 7 occasions.

1:13:48 So furlough as in like a a, a grant, an access of of leave? OK, leave. I'm sorry. Yeah. What? Citing his role as father to four young daughters as the basis of his appeal. But by that stage, they would have been like, in their 20s, yeah. So I think two of them were still underage at the time, and I think the other three were adults. Yeah, in 2023 when he was released. Though he was granted parole in August of 2023 and he failed to surrender. Yeah, but why was he granted parole, do you know? No. I'll tell you why.

1:14:26 I know why. Because he had to arrange a marriage for his eldest daughter because she was too old. She had to get married and there were no other male relatives in the in the family. Not none of his. Who would be? Five brothers of his own. Who would be able to take care of that? So they let him out for four months. Someone who just butchers people randomly. Yes, and who'd been in prison before and then murdered people? What the fuck? To arrange a marriage for his eldest daughter. That's. Insane, that blows my mind.

1:15:06 That's scary. Like I don't want to ever meet this person. Yeah. What he shouldn't have been even allowed near his family. That's crazy, isn't it? Because then again, on January 17th, 2025, so we're there was. Like we're recording, this is in 2025, this is this year, this is recent, yeah. He was arrested at Old Delhi railway station because he was fleeing to attempt. He was attempting to flee to back to Baja. Like what? How the hell did he get there? I don't think. I don't think we know. Just blows my mind that there's this like he.

1:15:49 Could you look at like the prison riots as? To how prison. It's it would be difficult to physically escape from. I am sure he is corrupt and I'm sure if he had enough money and enough people. But does he have enough money? Like, I mean, where would he get that? He must from. I feel like he's got supporters though. What? Like what? Wait. Yeah. Who would support him? People who were in the community who thought he was helping them because he he posited himself in that community in Delhi of all of their yeah, expats from his ability.

1:16:26 So like, he's like Robin Hood. Yes, exactly. Who butchers people? Well, just ignore that beard. Just stick your head in the sand about that stuff because it's all OK. Yeah. Yeah. Because he's. Oh, no, there's no way. Oh no. I actually reckon that scares the shit out of me and not. I don't want to go to Delhi now. Yeah, yeah. Because he could just be wandering around and decided Butch you up and stick you in a bus. Although. He does only butcher men. True that. OK, I'm safe, so I think you're OK.

1:17:03 OK, I'm good. That makes it OK. Yeah, I mean, we'll be fine. We're fine. Just don't travel with the boys. Yeah, no, obviously Righty 00. Sure. It's, it's bizarre because it's absolutely. So he, yeah, this is the thing. So OK, I want to hear more about the psychology of him. OK? Because. All right, so he honestly believes he's just doing good in the world by, you know, someone who's vegetarian, not eating vegetarian. Yeah. You deserve to die. That's that's a really bad thing. You're. An absolute piece of shit and you deserve to die all.

1:17:46 Right. OK, let me let me find my notes about the psychologist because yeah, she her, her take on it was yeah, I mean, obviously. While you're looking for that. He he sorry, no, he lived. He grew up in a really emotionally devoid. I'm just going back to our Rachel tolls thing now. Yeah, his mum and dad did not give a shit about. It No, he ticks boxes on all. A lot of boxes, yeah. He grew up impoverished, he was malnourished. There was a lot going on for him and his family. He was one of six boys, and he's the only one who's committed murders that we know of.

1:18:24 Yeah. What? Why him? Why him? Yeah. Very, very fascinating. So in that documentary where as I was saying before that this there was that podcast I was listening to where the girl will listen to it, listen to it in Hindi and then in English. And she was saying to me saying about the fact that the translation into English missed it a little bit of. So in the letters that he sent the police, the lady who was the psychologist in the documentary talked about the fact that in the letters, he clearly had no respect for his mother from.

1:19:01 And. But in English, what we get from the letters is that he used language like motherfuckers, OK? And so I, I remember listening to it myself kind of going, well, that's a big leap. Like just 'cause you say, motherfucker, you therefore have no respect for your mother. Like, that to me, doesn't correlate. Yeah. But if you call Pat a motherfucker, I'll. Call that everyday.

1:19:25 I I get what you mean though, like in terms of the the severity scale, I get that that it's a long jump it's to go to. Big jump to be like, you know, like I, you know, have no respect for my mum and I'm going to murder people, right. Yeah. So but what she was explaining was that the translation is not really motherfuckers and it's and there are different Hindi words that were in that letter. OK, that indicated that more strongly that Yeah, her psychology take on it was accurate. It was the English translation that was poor.

1:19:58 OK, so and I and like, because they're not words that we have in out in English, I can't explain exactly what the words, word of what, how much that would be affect would affect that and how that would, you know, be interpreted that way. But it's definitely on the money that yes, the letters were written in a way that very clearly showed of absolute disdain and disrespect for his mum. OK. So, but that's still then the thing that then doesn't fit for me is that I would have thought then he would target females and women of sort of a similar age gap to him, to him and his mum, you know what I mean?

1:20:35 Rather than or women of an age of his mum at the time when these disrespectful things happened that he didn't like that his mum did do. You think the fact that he had daughters might have changed that? Yeah, I don't know what the psychology behind that. Is. I'm not sure either, but it is interesting to note that all of the men he killed were late 20s early 30s. They. Were young. They were all, they were all like within four years of each other in terms of age. Yeah. What's that? About there was definitely he had a definite type and it was definitely this you know if he felt disrespected by them and that could be very minimal that was his MO yeah so it was that a man male aged between 20 and 24 basically yeah and.

1:21:16 And somehow disrespect him. Yeah. They were his criteria. Yeah. To commit murder or Yeah, still are. We could get out. Yeah. So I, I, I'm intrigued as to, as I mean, again, going back to the Rachel Toll stuff in terms of the breakdown of what makes a serial killer. Like, is that his, what's that word that she talked about? Like at the age of 3 when you. The the paraphilia. Yeah. And you make that attachment and that sort of becomes what they they target. Basically what this psychologist is saying as well.

1:21:49 Yeah, right. I'll just read a little bit of what she said. Yeah. In the case of Chandra Kancha, social and environmental factors play a major role in shaping his criminal behaviour as compared to other psychological and genetic factors. His early childhood also played an important factor in his later criminal behaviour. Jazz's early upbringing in the absence of positive role models significantly contributed to his descent into life characterized by darkness. Throughout his formative years, he lacked the guidance and mentorship that could have steered him in a more positive direction, rendering him vulnerable to the negative influences of his surroundings.

1:22:25 So I think by that she means like the poverty and all of that sort of stuff and the things he ended ended up getting himself involved in. But then in court, she actually, this psychologist, I think it was her mentor, actually gave evidence. And in the evidence, they labeled his way of killing as an extremely brutal, grotesque and diabolical way to raise intense and extreme indignation of the community. Mental and physical suffering inflicted on the victim before his death is immense. There is a significant degree of planning on the part of JAR while committing the murder.

1:23:12 The judge then said that JAR is a mission oriented and task oriented serial killer whose only motive is to expose, mock and challenge the police and that Jar's act of threatening the police that he would send such gifts again reflects a lack of remorse and his intention to repeat his criminal act, which is why he ended up giving in a sentence the the death penalty. Sentence to him original because he'll do it again 'cause he will do it again so let's give him parole and let's let him out to go and organise his daughter's marriage.

1:23:44 I just. I know it makes. I mean that would never happen here. Like obviously that would. Never be absolute. So I think it's hard for us to get our heads around it, but maybe culturally that is obviously very, very important. Yeah, I get it. But no matter how culturally important something is here in Australia for a release from jail never happened. That's you might get released to go to say you know, your parents funeral or something for like, but and it'd be for a certain period of time of like an hour or two like kind of situate and it'd be chaperoned and yeah, yeah, like where is this was like yeah, yeah.

1:24:20 No mate, go sort yourself out. Like go, arrange, go, arrange that marriage and we'll see you in a few months. Shall we? You got 90 days or whatever it was. Yeah. This this psychologist then said I think I was saying before how she's he's never had an analysis done. But in everything that she's looked at, yeah. She said in relation to signs and symptoms of personality related issues, signs like grandiosity, manipulation, disregard for others feelings was observed in Chandrakantha and he moreover fit into the category of antisocial personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder.

1:24:57 However, there was never a crystal clear conclusion provided as the required tests and assessments were never conducted. I think she's fucking nailed that. I think yeah, totally. But just it's still like makes me question though, like what has what has made him go from the to the absolute extreme of the butchering of the of people? Like what? I don't know. I There's killing someone and then there's. Dismembering them, cutting off their penis, throwing that somewhere, throwing their head somewhere else.

1:25:29 Like to me that says, well, cutting off the penis particularly to me says that he's potentially been sexually abused. So there's just so much more to me that that his crime says about him. Don't. Know that we will ever know what we currently know. No, I mean, you want to understand a brain like that. Yeah. And I know we can't, especially if no one's actually gone in and analysed him. Yeah. Because surely, like, there's a way of doing that. Just. I feel like everyone should if they've ever these crimes.

1:26:01 I just feel like they should be analysed off as I'm hanging for Aaron Patterson to be analyse within the interview. Live. Oh, it's. Coming find out there, yeah, I just I mean so intrigued that I want to know what has happened to this person to create that

1:26:19 and yeah. I, I, I'm with you 100% on that because. Like negligent, neglectful childhood's one thing. I, I, I get it. And that that's going to create, you know, an adult that doesn't do the right thing. But it's the extreme of what he's done. Oh, his, his actions, his behaviour is so extreme, even as you was just saying, even in relation to the way he murders and dismembers bodies. Like that's such an extreme way to do things as well. And with such little regard for consequence, too. Because, you know, he had the knives, the murder weapons.

1:26:55 He had the victim's blood in his house. Yeah, there was no covering it up. It was, it was just brazen. It's it's it's. To rock up, you know, back at the dead, the body that he's left there and, you know, go, Oh, yeah, I'll help you, you know, cut it open. That's not necessarily uncommon, is it? No. Killers want to go back to their they. Want to go back to the scene of their crime? Absolutely. It's, I mean to like stand there and talk to the police and say. That gets me. You know, I'll give you a hand with it.

1:27:26 When he had to have been at that point though, too, I think they, they were at a point of like knowing a little bit about who this person was. So they kind of shouldn't know. I think that even at that point they had that that composition of what he looked like. Oh, did they? I'm pretty sure that they already had that. Drawing just hadn't seen. It exactly, yeah. Wow. OK, yeah, that's fuck right. Yeah, bloody hell. It's crazy that is crazy that is. Crazy. This is an interesting one, really. I don't think we'll ever, ever, ever know any more than what we currently.

1:28:07 Know, but I hope we never ever get another one of him. No. And if we do, can we people as a community like, not like, let them out just. Yeah, can we just like keep not in prison? That really disturbed me and I because. Life sentence without parole. It's life sentence without parole. I've said for a damn good reason, yes. I mean, he could have literally in those couple of months he was let out to do that. I mean, imagine if he'd like. How do we know that he didn't? They actually might not even. He might have been.

1:28:33 Interviewing grooms for his future daughter's future and gonna go no don't like you don't like you you've looked at me the wrong way bad. Imagine like being his son-in-law, I mean, which is, I mean, I feel a bit bad for his daughter. Like no wonder she's a bit of a spinster and getting too old because everyone will be terrified. Like I'm I'm 20 to 24. I'm not and. It's probably worth noting, even though you and I, before we looked into this, we'd never heard of him before. But in India, he is infamous.

1:29:03 Yes. So it's not like people don't know who he is. He's very well known. Yeah. And people were scared before he got caught. People were terrified. Yeah, gotcha. Yeah, don't blame him. It was. Nine years or something of terror that he was, you know, Yeah. Listing on the poor, unsuspecting people of Delhi. Oh. God, that's just awful. Yeah. Oh, this has been a really different one. Very different, Very, very different. And it was I found, you know, the language, all the language stuff and even the, the traditions, the customs of the country.

1:29:39 Yeah, India and the way their judicial system works and the policing and I mean all of the corruption and things like that that we probably haven't really discussed in any of our other cases really. Not even like, you know, like with even with Chapelle Corby. Therefore it was in English and a lot of it, but a lot of it wasn't too with being a Bali case, you know, we had different language there, but not not to the impact of what this one. Yeah. What it was. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Anyway, it was a really interesting one.

1:30:03 I think someone have suggested this case, so to whoever did, thank you. Otherwise, I don't know how we've got it on our list. I don't know. But yeah, it was good. Yeah. So next week we are covering a case that has actually been requested by lots of different people. A lot of people requested. Covering the Anita Kobe case. So we're back in Australia next week. Yeah. And we'll be bringing that one to you guys. So thank you very much for joining us again on another episode of Two Crime Besties. We are loving this.

1:30:33 Please keep it going. We're just, you know, couldn't be more delight. Oh, it's so good. It's. So great. So thank you everybody. Make sure you follow us on whatever podcast app you're listening to. Don't forget to like and subscribe as all the young the young bucks on YouTube say these days. I was actually looking, I noticed that in our analytics that only like 25%, which blows my mind, only 25% of our listeners actually subscribe to our channel that kind of like hit that follow button or that on Spotify or whatever.

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1:31:31 Awesome. All right, well, we'll see you next week. Everybody stay curious. Crime besties. Bye.