Episode 20 - Jennifer Pan

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties to another episode. Here we are for episode 20. Emma, did you realize that? I did when I was writing it down. But I am just a little bit, I'm a bit proud of us actually, to get to 20 episodes when we first started the podcast. And I was doing some research into like, you know, what makes a successful podcast. Yeah, one of the things is posting consistently, which we've been able to do, Yeah. And also like a lot of podcasts start and might have 345 episodes and then stop.

0:45 Yeah. And so like the fact that we've reached a a 20 episode milestone, go ask Yeah, for. Sure. Well, I mean, kids hardly understand that too because like, I mean, I think we worked out too, like we thought, you know, this is easy to do, start a podcast. Everyone does it, you know, but there's definitely lots we've learnt doing this. Like, it's been in some ways harder than we thought. Oh, definitely. Like, yeah. And so we've had little hiccups on the way and stuff, but to then stick at it and keep pushing through all that to get to hear where, I mean, we're recording today with what fingers crossed every time that our audio is great.

1:14 Yeah. You know, and that we've got, you know, little bits of new equipment and stuff along the way. It's pretty. Cool. Go off. Yeah. And thanks to everybody. Yeah, thanks to everybody for listening for 20 episodes, because if we didn't have people listening to it, I don't know that we'd be still motivated to make more and more episodes so. Yeah, Thank you. Analytics keep going in the right direction. So, so you know, it's obviously we're picking up a few extra people along the way, which is nice.

1:35 It is nice. I, I bumped into one of the dads at school pick up the other day. Oh yeah. And his wife had obviously told him about our podcast and he's like, you know what, I'm gonna give it a listen. I'm like, well, thank you very much. So yeah, hopefully that, you know, as people start to hear more and more about it, we get more, more people on board for. Sure. I love that. And even like one of the teachers who walked up to us the other day, like, oh, it's my two grand besties, like. Oh, this is really awkward.

2:01 Please don't tell me our kids have been talking about it at school. We don't let them listen. Don't worry, our kids do not listen to the podcast. We might let them listen to the first year or two while we're just chatting about things, but not none of the serious stuff. It's funny though, like because I have let them listen like the the intro episode. I think we did like episodes, let them listen to that. There's nothing in that. And then like maybe a few intro bits of like various episodes and like, so Brody started like recording his own podcast.

2:29 Oh, I love it. I. Love very gorgeous he he totally gets into it and gets on his his iPad and in video records and video. Records What does he what does he podcast about? Oh well, one of the that he recorded, it was in the car. It was bloody hilarious. And he's like, so this is the podcast about everything. And like, so topic number one. And like, that's really on topic #2 and he gives a sentence on each thing and it's like, I love it, 'cause I know everything about everything. Oh yeah, absolutely.

2:54 Course he does. Subscribe to that podcast, Everything About Everything. Yeah, love it. Hey, there's an idea for a spin off for us at some point maybe? Spin off Oh come on. Brody needs his own like episode series. Come on. Anyway, I think we mentioned this in our episode last week, but we again have had, you know, a few people reaching out and asking how they can support our channel. Yeah, again, best way to do that is to subscribe using your podcasting app. So best for us is in Spotify or in the Apple Purple podcasting app, Yes, but we've actually also set up a buy me a coffee site.

3:36 So there's a link to that now, a link to that now. Show notes below if you would like to provide a financial contribution. I mean, there is absolutely no pressure. We, you know, we're doing this for fun and we love it and we love the fact that everybody is joining us every week, but that. That link will be in our show notes if anyone's interested. That would be amazing. I mean, like, yeah, as, as you say, that hitting that like or subscribe button is really the, you know, our ultimate We, we know people listening and that will keep us going.

4:04 But obviously there are expenses I guess involved in this as much as we're we're willing to outlay those things 'cause we love doing it. But you know, that little bit of help towards any of that sort of stuff is fantastic too. Yes. So thank you. Thank you to those who've already, you know, had a go. Yes. Yeah, we definitely need coffee in them when you get started on these podcasts sometimes. Especially when we're recording like we're rushing straight half to school drop off today. We're gonna try and get our record done before we go and watch our little ones do their school swimming for the day.

4:30 So just trying to fit it all in. Yeah, everything into a day. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no. And that's the thing with this we're getting. So we're getting like quicker at doing it I find like yeah, we record. So you know, we can't achieve more into Friday when we record these. That's right. Do you remember back in those first few episodes it would literally take us the whole school day to do a recording? Yeah, we'd be like, Oh my God, shit, shit, shit. It's already 3:00. Yeah, quickly, let's go. Yeah, after like we're recorded and stuff because yeah, it was.

4:55 It took us forever to get everything sorted. We have to, yeah, stop and start various points. Now it's like I've got. This, we have got it down, yeah. So hopefully this will take us less than what we got an hour and a bit and we'll be done. So on that note, let's get into it this. Case is actually bigger than we thought. I reckon every week we say to each other, oh there's not that much in this one, and then we actually look into it and start researching. Oh, actually, I think there is. Yeah, well, that's maybe it's our fault.

5:23 Maybe we just talk too much, too. That might be part of it. I'm sure you know from the episode title though. Today we're talking about Jennifer Pan. There's been a Netflix documentary recently released called What Jennifer Did on Netflix, I think did I just mention which is it's really good. It's a, it's a really well produced series. Not even a series. It's a just a doco doco. Yeah, but I've found it very one sided, Yes. And they definitely had an agenda as I guess these things tend to do. Like it's it's it's told from a certain viewpoint.

6:05 And although I can absolutely understand where the where they were coming from in the way that they presented the documentary, I think there's so much more nuance and context to this case that wasn't presented in that. And that's kind of why we decided to do this episode now. Yep, that and did you notice the AI images that he used in that documentary too? Well Netflix have come out and said that it's not AI, that it was actually a they have. They used digital altering of a photo because they wanted to anonymize people in the background of the photo.

6:40 She has. Two thumbs in one picture. Yeah. And then the the spacing between her fingers in one of them is. Real weird. And her tooth has been fixed in one. Yes, too. Yeah, yeah, it's, they're definitely like they've normed them. Yeah, it's a bit more than a bit of Photoshop. Photoshop. I, I, when you look at it, because, yeah, there's one where she's like got like she's holding up to a peace sign in each hand. Yeah. And one of them, like she's got too many fingers. Yeah, but also one of the most fingers, they're way longer than the other ones, like, yeah.

7:05 But like the multiple fingers and stuff is usually like an AI indicator. Like, yeah, but why would they do that? Like what's? Well, again, is it about portraying her a certain way? They wanted to show her as a bubbly person, maybe is like fun, you know, maybe, I don't know, not not really sure of the agenda or behind that. But yeah, interesting, very interesting. And then to not, I guess, acknowledge it like that, you know, that they did do it is really unusual too. Yeah. And they, they, they're waiting behind it.

7:33 I think the the director said something along the lines of like our old documentaries, like do Photoshop and stuff. It's like, well, I don't know if they do. I mean, that's the whole point of a documentary is that it's fact. Fact. Like, I mean, it's why we we watch those all the time over drama series and things like that. Because you, you actually, yeah, you expect that you're getting facts from it. Absolutely. You wanna, you wanna know that what you're watching is, you know, fairly true to to events.

7:57 Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, let's get into the case. So Jennifer Pan was born on the 17th of June in 1986 to parents Han Pan and Big Har Pan. They were of Chinese Vietnamese descent, and there were immigrants into Canada. So this took place in Canada. Yeah. Markham, ON. Yeah. So out of Toronto, yeah. 20 KS or so out of Toronto, yeah. And so Big Ha and Han actually met in Canada. They were both refugees and had met in Canada and very quickly, I think had a very quick courtship and. I have a funny feeling they actually didn't know each other back in Vietnam.

8:40 Oh, different. I don't know that. Yeah, I don't know. There was some stuff I read about. Potentially they may have met prior. OK through. It may be family connections or. Something right? OK, but but anyway, they decided to get married and and start a life together in Canada. Yeah. And which they did. And then they had Jennifer. And then three years later, they had a son named Felix. He is not mentioned in the documentary at all on Netflix. And there's a lot of reasons behind that, which will become more and more evident as time goes on.

9:09 But he's he just doesn't want to be associated with any of this. And I can completely understand why. Yep. So this took place on Monday, the 8th of November in 2010. Yes, there's a lot that leads up to that date, but let's start there. Yeah. And we'll go through the events of the day, I think, and then we can sort of look, you know, go backwards and go back and see exactly why that happened. Yeah. So I guess the first, the first bit is we hear this 911 call and I had to double check that Canada's emergency number was 911.

9:44 But it is. But yeah, so we hear this 911 call of Jennifer contacting police because she's heard these popping sounds and she's been tied up and she doesn't know what's happened. And she can hear in the in that 911 call, which again, you can go and you can either listen to that in the documentary or it's on Facebook, YouTube, Yeah, any of those. It's on online. Yeah, Google it. Yeah. And you can hear her dad in the background like moaning, isn't he? He's like, he's so that, that sound is horrible.

10:16 Yeah. And he then runs out the front. Door. Knowing Jennifer's in the house, which is also very curious. Yes. But basically Jennifer's account of the story is of, of what happened is that that night her mum had gone line dancing. Yeah. Good on Earth. Yeah. Apparently she didn't. Picard didn't do a lot of things for herself, but line dancing was like her One thing that she absolutely loved. She loved music, loved dancing and you know, every Monday. Night Joe when I hear of line dancing. Married. A long time.

10:54 Ago. Oh God, don't, don't get us started. Now there's a tangent we could easily go down. Yeah. And so she's gone out Monday night. I think she left home at about 6:00-ish or 630. She's then home by about 9:00. Prior to her going to line dancing, she cooked a meal. She and Jennifer ate that meal. Han had actually been at work that day. He was a machinist, a tool and die maker. They. Both worked at the same place, the two of. Them well big car didn't work there anymore. She'd actually been made redundant about two years before this incident.

11:27 But she had worked she had worked in the same it was it for an automotive car part manufacturer. Yeah, so they were very hard working people. Han had been at work that day and he'd come home. I think he was a little bit late coming home because he on his way home he realised he'd like not locked his toolbox or something. So he's gone back to work, done that, and then on the way home he's called his brother-in-law because he needed to go to Bunnings or whatever the the Canadian version of Bunnings is so hardware type store to pick something up.

12:00 And so he went with his brother-in-law there. He's come home, eaten the meal that big car had left for him because she'd already gone off to a line dancing class. He ate his dinner, went to bed at about 8:30 because I think he started work really early, like 5:30 in the morning or something. So. He'd go to bed earlier than usual, but yeah. But yeah, 830 was in bed. Yeah, because I get home, I think it was around 9 PM 9:30 PM from line dancing. Jennifer hears her mum come home and goes downstairs.

12:31 This is Jennifer's account of what happened. She goes downstairs to say goodnight to her mum and then goes back upstairs to essentially go to bed.

12:43 Jennifer was on a phone, a phone call, then to an old school friend. Yeah, I believe. Yeah, yeah. So she'd been, she'd had a fair bit of contact with friends throughout this night. She'd had a one friend had come over during the night to watch some shows that they'd recorded. So they watched. Oh, God, Now I can't remember what they were. There were shows that I was like, Oh yeah, I remember watching those in 2010, but you know, sort of soapy type things. And so they watched those and then the friend went home and then Jennifer's had text message exchanges with one friend and then she's had this phone conversation with another.

13:20 So at this point. Big sitting on the couch soaking her feet after a big lot of line dancing. Well, she's probably there for three hours. That's a decent. God, yeah, no, yeah, decent. Go at it. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, sore feet, absolutely. She's had a ball and had a great night, you know, enjoying her thing, love it. But then at about 10:00, all of a sudden in walks the through the front door with no knock, no nothing. And BIC believed the front door was locked. However, these people just walked straight through and this is where the shit begins.

14:00 So they grab BIC and take her straight down. There's three men take her straight down to the basement. Han, who is in bed at this, as we said, he wakes up to a man with a gun in his face telling him, where's the money? Where's the money? He's, you know, absolutely, you know. Working for, sorry. He gets dragged down to the basement as well. Apparently this is when, according to Jennifer, she hears these, these, these voices that aren't her parents and sort of opens her bedroom door and sort of a little bit to sort of check what's going on.

14:38 And she hears footsteps coming up the, the, the stairwell. And as she opens the door, there's a person there with a gun and who grabs her. They grab her and then they tie her up to the banister and they tie her hands together and then tie her to the banister. So the way she describes it is they they tie her upper arm to the banister. So she's got her hands behind her back, behind her back, and then her upper arm is tied to the banister. Yeah. Meg, what did they use to tie your hands together in her arm to the banister shoelaces?

15:09 Uh huh. OK, Yeah. Criminal masterminds, anyway. So she's upstairs according to her, and so she has no idea what's then going on. So there's then like 3 floors to this house and that there's a the basement, which is a youth space in this house, like a finished basement. Yeah, they use it as a sitting room and things like that. I think it's. Got ATV down there. Yeah, Yep. So there. But BIC and Han are down there. So all we get now is is Jennifer's story of what she hears is 2 pops which she thinks could be gunshots.

15:42 She hears her mum's scream. She then apparently hears two more pops and then and then she hears them go out the front door and she thinks that they're gone and she can't hear. She hears her dad moaning, I think a little bit, but then nothing. So then she reaches behind and she realizes that her phone is in her back pocket, so with her hands tied. Behind her waistband. Yeah, so in with her hands tied behind her back and her tied to banister. Somehow she gets this phone out and dials triple drop triple O nine on one sorry, wrong country and so and so rings 911 and then that's when we get that for that that that 91 call that you hear of her very I mean it was it's pretty intense that 911 call of her screaming sort of you know, someone's in our house and you know that she.

16:31 Has been shots. There's been popping shots. She the the 911 operator says like is asking her for her address and asking her what happens. She sounds like a little girl in the in the. Because we haven't mentioned, I guess we have in terms of her age, but I don't know people put together that at this point in 2010, she was 24 years of age 4. Yeah, she sounds like a little girl. She's terrified. And, you know, given the events that have unfolded, understandably, I mean, some intruders have come into your house.

17:00 You can hear shooting sounds. They've been demanding and yelling about money. And, yeah, she would be terrified. So again, go and have a look, either Netflix documentary or even better, on YouTube. You can see just this clip of the video. Yeah. But in when she's interviewed by police following this event, she demonstrates how she got her phone out of her waistband and made the call despite the fact that she was tied up because she was saying she was tied up really tight. So she couldn't get out of it.

17:30 Yeah, but she was able to get her phone out of her waistband, put it to her side and like flip, flip it open because of the old fashioned flip phone and dial 911 and then speak to the operator. Now, there was no speakerphone on the phones at the time. That's what I kept. I was like, she was Google searching, like could you just put on speaker at that point? And there was no speakerphone, No SO. So she what she says is she turned the volume up all the way and she was yelling at the phone now. I immediately like that doesn't ring when you hear that voice that that 911 call, it sounds like it's very clear, very like she's very clear.

18:06 I mean, I've, I've heard plenty of other 91 calls where someone is got the phone here, which you don't get as Leah. Yeah, as what you got from her. That. Yeah. So it's not like to me, she's not twisting around and yelling down at the phone like it's her voice is very clear. But anyway, this is her account. Yeah. And the 911 operator says to her, you know, what's your address? And she's not forthcoming in that like as in she stumbles around the question, which I get. You can kind of understand that in in some sense of like a traumatic event.

18:38 She has said it. But then I wanna call 911. Operator couldn't really make it out. Yeah, yeah. Which I mean, I can get it. You think you've said it, but they haven't understood it. So I kind of again I kind of can come at that the. Trauma or? She does skip strip. She'll stumble over it a lot. Like kind of thing that you're kind of like, well. And then eventually the 911 operators like spell it for me, Yeah. And she does anyway. They dispatch police immediately. Yeah. And the 911 operator stays on the line with her until the police are there.

19:05 So you can hear the police in the 911 call, you can hear the police entering the property. You can hear the police officer coming upstairs and obviously doing a sweep of the house to ensure that the intruders aren't there. There weren't anymore. She was, she sort of said to them, even as they kept the stairs. I don't know if they're still here or not. Yeah. So yes, they've got to check everything. So obviously, you know, if I guess in, if this was legit in terms of things, but she, you know, that would be pretty intense as a victim that you're tied to a banister and finally someone comes to arrive and you think you're gonna get free.

19:35 But they don't, they leave her there, which they have to because they need to make sure that yeah, everyone else, everyone is safe before they, I mean, she is safe at that point, you know, like even though, yeah, of course you want to get out of that situation. But yeah, they have to leave her there while they check all the brooms and things and then also check how she's tied. That's part of just, you know, protocol to then how they're going to untie her safely or what have you. So yeah, they've done that properly.

20:02 I should say before they walked in, the police obviously into the house they found outside was Han Penn, passed out on sort of the nature strip, I guess, sort of out the front and the lawn there. So he's been shot, I think in the face, in the face and in the shoulder. In the shoulder as well. It's two shots. He'd been, he'd been, he'd copped one of them particularly right through the corner of his eye. Yeah. So he, how he got up and got to there is pretty full on. And how they can't believe. It like the adrenaline must have been pumping.

20:34 So he's actually climbed the stairs from the basement to the ground level of the house. Yeah. And run out the front door. Yeah, I think in some ways. Luckily a neighbour was actually leaving for work at the time and intercepted Han and could already hear the sirens. So new, new help was on its way. Yes, and so he stayed with Han until the police got there. And obviously the police had to do a sweep before they could even attend to Han by the time. So the police tried. So they've gone down into the basement, found Big Ha and knew immediately that she was deceased.

21:08 They did try to perform CPR on her just, you know, as a life saving measure just to try. And once the ambulance, the paramedics got there, they basically knew that yeah, she was gone then. She'd been shot in the back and on in the back of the head. Yeah, yeah. So just absolutely horrific. Han. Yeah, as you said, was had passed out by this stage. Out the front upstairs, the police officer who'd found Jennifer decided, I mean, obviously had done had had a bit of a check of her and everything and found some scissors in her bedroom and cut her free using the scissors.

21:51 Mm. Hmm. Trying not to, you know, just disturb. Yeah. Just too much of the crime scene. Yeah. Obviously wanted to free her in the same token. So anyway, was able to cut her free in that way and took her out the front immediately where she saw her dad on a Gurney ready to go into the ambulance. And then they've taken Jennifer to an await another awaiting ambulance so that she could receive any medical attention that she would need. She didn't need any aside from, you know, she was treated for shock at the scene.

22:21 And they took her to the hospital to give her a once over. They didn't know at this point whether she'd been raped or harmed in any way. And so, you know, they were doing their due diligence by ensuring that medically she was OK after this horrific incident. Yeah. So they were taken separate ambulances to the local hospital. And at this stage, Hahn is in a really, really critical condition. Yeah. The bullet missed his carotid artery by literally millimeters. And it came through the corner of his eye and then down through his throat.

22:57 Exactly. But it was the angle, it was like slightly angled away from his neck. So it was like angled out towards the outer side of his body. If it had been angled slightly more inward, he wouldn't have survived. No. Just incredible. Yeah. To this day, he's still got bullet fragments in his and. You can't see out that eye. No, no. Oh, he's not lost all vision of that eye. Yeah. So there's obviously some yeah, ongoing, absolutely ongoing physical trauma, let alone the mental trauma. I mean, I guess so, man, Still at that point, like, they didn't even know if he'd still, you know, survive.

23:29 Yeah. I mean, there was still a long way to go though. So in the hospital, I think family members arrived as well. And Jennifer was with him in the hospital. And at one point, Jennifer realized that her phone battery had died and she even asked. So she asked one of the her uncle, I think it was. She said, oh, my phone battery's dying. I want to. That actually happened when Han when Han came to the. The money of, I thought. No, no, it happened on the on the date because they've they've then traced that that was part of the prosecution's case.

24:04 Yeah, because they then were able to see that she phoned her ex-boyfriend. We're getting Daniel Wong and they know it was now. To tell her because on the night it was on that night because she rang him and said he's going to leave, which they didn't know. Yeah, no, I'm sure that happened when he woke up because at that, on the night that it happened, he did not know. They didn't know. They thought he was going to die. No, that's right. That's critical. I'm sure there's part of the interview with her that comes up and she said, oh, I was ringing him to tell him that that my dad was going to leave, right.

24:38 And it was like, well, hang on a minute, because you don't didn't know he was going to leave. Yes. So why would she ring to say that? Yeah, that's and that was part of the another question mark like that made them, I don't know. OK, don't know. All right, we'll have to look at that. We'll double check that, Yeah. But at some point she's called Daniel to say that he's. Yeah, yeah, we'll get we'll. Get to Daniel. It's not crucial, No. By any means, no, But yeah. So I think 3 hours after all of this, the police take her down to the police station to do an initial statement, which again, at this point, it's it's just protocol that, you know, she is the only witness they have to this to then be able to follow through and find who these these people are that have come into a house.

25:16 Yeah. And do this. They've got to interview her, which they are. I mean, look, that is completely intense. And police are very aware. And I have to say, I think they did an incredible job of supporting a victim of crime. They have these these particular people who get assigned to a victim like this that support them as well as, you know, those who have got to do their job and interview because you don't know who's involved in anything and these sorts of things at this point. Yeah. Because as we should say to where this occurred, I mean, crime was very low.

25:47 Yeah. This was really unusual for it to have happened. A home invasion of any sort was non existent in that in that neighbourhood. So immediately, even when the media got hold of this, it was a big story because they're like, who on earth would have done this? You know, because people don't have home invasions in that area. And so it was like, well, if this wasn't related to the family, just a random incident like that's scary for this neighbourhood particularly. I think that's. Something they used.

26:17 To They were looking to see whether the family had connections to drugs or like gangs or, you know, something to motivate a crime like this, but there was nothing. Well, very early on, one of the neighbours when they started talking to other witnesses trying to, you know, what did you hear over the night? And neighbours said like, well, Jennifer's ex-boyfriend was is has drug relations. So that came up quite early. So they were aware of that. And I don't, I don't think at that first interview they were aware of that, no.

26:43 But. That's why they brought her back for the second interview. So the first interview took place at 1. So she was sorry. Jennifer was discharged from the hospital at 1:30 in the morning and taken straight to the police station for interview. The interview started at 2:45 AM and finished at 4:30 AM. It's. Pretty lengthy, like I mean I couldn't watch slow for her I guess. Yeah, but to think of what she'd been through, so, you know, a couple of hours worth of like quite intense questioning and they were just trying to establish a timeline of basically what had happened.

27:16 Yeah. Whether Jennifer knew anything, whether there were any leads that they could potentially follow up because as you said, they. This is. This was just so seemingly so random and. But very early on, the police were questioning things. There was So actually those are two different camps basically between the cops. There were those that were, you know, absolutely like all these poor victim here like and then but there were certain cops going. I think she's in on it. Yeah. Because to have AI mean you've gone and I mean people to enter house and murder or attempt an attempt to murder two people.

27:46 Why would you leave a witness who can who saw you that that was their biggest, I guess red flag. Yeah, but at the same time, like, this was incredibly intense and you can't treat her immediately as like, you know, you're you're a bad person and like, they've got to tread carefully because in case this is just completely random. Yeah, that's it. In her interview, she did give descriptions of three men who came into her house. So they basically labeled them man one man 2, Man 3 because they don't have any names for these people yet.

28:16 And she was able to give a description of each, each man that she saw and that she that she definitely heard certain them talk. That one had a Jamaican accent, one had dreadlocks, all these sorts of bits of information. The interview itself, I mean, it's all over online. Like you very easily access access to it. It's very, it's worth having a check out because her demeanor immediately to me raised quite a few red flags. The first one being that she there's a box of tissues on that table now. I can only imagine how I would be feeling.

28:52 I've just had my mother murdered, my dad's in hospital and quite possibly could die.

28:59 How you would be feeling right then would be full on. I'm sorry. That table would be full of wet, gross, disgusting snot tissues. Oh, absolutely. But then I guess the other thing is just putting, you know, putting aside what we know. Mm hmm. You don't know how you would act, you would behave in a trauma like this. You can't. She'd be exhausted. It's, you know, but yeah, two o'clock 3:00 in the morning. Yeah, you'd be in shock. Absolutely be in shock. And you don't know how you would react. Although even when because apparently when she was awaiting to go into the ambulance back at home, she said to the police officer, what happened to my mum?

29:37 And the police officer said I'm I'm sorry to inform you she's deceased. Jennifer just went. It was like it was like, OK, again, how you would process that I don't know. The shock of that would be so intense and you would almost feel like you're not living in reality, would you? God, yeah. But another layer of this, I guess we probably should say is that both you and I are white Australian cultural, cultural background. We don't have great insight here into another culture that we're looking at here in terms of their family being Chinese slash Vietnamese background.

30:15 Different cultures raise children differently. And I know that from only Speaking of like from friends experiences or being raised in households like that where that emotion isn't really allowed and that they were it's. Not like a it's a cultural thing, isn't? It can be a cultural thing that you know, you, that you don't cry. Yep, and things like that. So I, I think we've got to also. Put that lens. On that lens on it as well that we're talking from a different cultural background as well. And I don't want to pre, I don't want to say that's, that is a very generalized statement.

30:43 That doesn't mean that every Asian household's that way either. So, but that has to be taken into account from the the police's, the police side of things of like when they, they don't, they can't judge someone's reaction as you're saying. And and nor should they, I mean the police there together to gather facts. I mean, obviously people's demeanor plays into an overall picture. But I think the detective on this particular night, at the first interview, he was really good in, in sort of taking everything in.

31:12 Yeah. And when he's interviewed in the documentary, you're like, OK, he he he got it from the get go. Yeah. But I think, I think with the tissues where I was going was like, she would wipe her like she would cry. Yeah, like, but the tissue will come back dry. Cry. She put her hands put. Her hands down, as if she was crying. Yeah. But then the tissue would come back dry. Yeah. So that's what I was kind of like. And so that was the difference between like, you know, like, yeah, like, OK, I don't cry because, like, whatever reason, like, how you've been raised or something.

31:37 But then there's fake crying. Yeah, it's performed. She thought that's what she should be doing and how she should be feeling. So this is the way I'm going to portray myself. Yeah. So Felix, Jennifer's brother, he was about 30 minutes away at college at the time. So he was not living in the house. He was living away at college, but it wasn't very far away. Yeah. So the police actually brought him in for an interview around the same time as Jennifer. Yep. And I mean, he didn't really have a huge amount to add to it.

32:06 Well, he had no idea of what had happened that night, but he did start to paint the picture in his interview of what their parents were like and what their family dynamic was like. So that, again, helped, as you were saying before, helped kind of put together a bit of a picture about what this family dynamic was. And, you know, one of the things that he said is their dad was really quite strict and very, like, very difficult to live with. He had very high expectations of them. Yeah. He basically expected them to be, you know, the best in their class academically.

32:41 He wanted them to be musical and play instruments. They were only able to do extracurricular activities that he deemed sort of noble. You know, they weren't able to necessarily just go off and, you know, tool around on a basketball court after school. They had to be doing something productive with their time. The pressure of that must have been horrendous. Yeah. Jennifer, when she was younger was a figure skater, and she ended up having to pull out of that because she injured her knee really badly, Yeah.

33:10 She was on track. Basically we looked at for. Olympics. Exactly. In primary school she was training until like 10:00 at night, coming home and doing not homework assigned by the school but homework assigned by her parents till midnight, till midnight or whatever and then getting up and going to school the next day. Like, they pushed their kids so hard. Han has been interviewed about this. Yeah. And I mean, not that he's had a huge amount to say in the public arena, but I believe this was actually formed part of his testimony at trial as well.

33:44 But there, there has also been an interview where he basically stated that they put everything they had into these children financially. Well, not emotionally. That wasn't the word he used like physically. So they, they took, they drove them everywhere they needed to go. They, they put everything they could into these kids to at their own sacrifice. So they hadn't gone back to Vietnam to visit family because they were putting all of their money into getting a better home in a better area for the kids, ensuring that they could pay for the top education and, like, giving them all these extra, extra tutors for different things and the best piano teachers and whatever.

34:25 Yeah. So it's building a picture of very, very high expectations. This is gonna sound really dirty, but I was looking at Reddit in relation to this case because I am curious to see different opinions that people have. And sometimes if you just look at the comments on like the Netflix documentary or something, you're not really getting a whole scope of what people think. Reddit, Reddit is great for that. That's great. You've got to filter through a fair bit of stuff. But people were saying on there that, you know, the expectations that the parents had didn't match necessarily their back the parents background.

35:06 So as in oh. Right. The parents were blue collar workers, yes, and they expected their children to achieve academically incredibly like a lot higher than they ever had. So the reason for that is this, this whole idea of like the Chinese, Vietnamese background and I, I sort of am bucketing them together in that I don't want to generalize, but in similarities. We're talking about it, yeah. But they've, I mean, they've got connections to both culturally, but also Vietnam and China have a lot of cultural similarities.

35:34 But the basic reason for that is that in their culture, education is you're out and basically that's the only way you can improve your socioeconomic status is through education. So that's why education has such a high emphasis in the culture. So you can be the, you know, lowly worker, but if you can, if you can make your child, if you can provide them education, that will improve your socio economic status. And so in Vietnam, in China, you can find a lot of like politicians, etcetera, medical people that have backgrounds of very poor families.

36:12 OK, I, I, I get that. Yeah. But it's, it's interesting to me that they had that opinion and yet they had, in blue collar jobs, worked their way into having a home that they owned outright. There's no mortgage left on that home. At the time of the murders. They had worked, they, one of them owned a Mercedes, the other one owned a Lexus. They had $200,000 worth of cash in their bank accounts. They had sent their kids well thought, they'd sent their kids to university and were able to assist in their tuition payments.

36:48 The kids still had student loans, but it was nothing compared to other kids because their parents were able to assist in contributions for that. So they to me, they're an absolute success story on the back of a blue collar job and yet they didn't see it like that. They've wanted their kids to be, they wanted Jennifer to be a doctor, but she says that she like it was too gruesome for her. She doesn't like to decide her. Dad didn't acknowledge that and goes, oh, you weren't going to stomach it. So that's when.

37:16 He so he decided that she she could do pharmacy instead. And I believe Felix studied engineering. Yes, yeah, yeah. So her brother, you know. So he was at university at this time studying engineering at a very prestigious university too. I don't know the name of it, but was quite a well thought of university he was at. Yeah. But like generally speaking, like because we're putting like quite AI guess a westernized look on this lens on like what this would be termed tiger parenting in some ways, yeah.

37:48 Or authoritarian parenting. That's different names again in it, but they definitely overlap somewhat that we would feel awful at the idea of our child being feeling stress. You know, if we were putting on pressure on our child that that idea of like our child feeling stressed would be that would be like, Oh my God, I'm not doing a good job because my child's stressed. Whereas potentially in that kind of style of to parenting culturally, your child feeling stressed is actually a sign of you doing a excellent excellent job as a parent.

38:19 Yeah, because they're striving. They're they're working really hard. They're doing what they should be doing to get to achieve what they need to achieve. Absolutely. I mean, there's like elements of tiger parenting that I 100% go, OK, I really like that idea, right. But it's when I put like a westernized spin on it, I guess. But yeah, the idea of like that they, they believe that if it should be, should be given more. What am I trying to say? Like more the effort is, is more important than the actual result.

38:49 In some ways. I say, I read that as like, Oh yeah, like you praise the effort. And I do this with my own children. I praise effort over the result. You can fail it like at the end of it, but you put in all the hard work. Therefore you haven't failed because you've learnt a new task. All right. Whereas they see it as no, no, you, you, everyone, in their minds, everyone can do anything as long as you work hard enough at it, right? There's no like innate strength someone has. No, no, you do. You can do everything and anything as long as you work hard enough at it.

39:23 So. And that that is exactly the environment that they've raised their children in. Like, they had no extracurricular. Yeah. Activity. It's like they were constantly striving for the best. Yeah. Everything they did was to try and achieve that. Yes. So regardless of the fact of, you know, that. OK, yeah, medicine isn't your thing. You don't like medicine. No, no, no. You work hard enough, you can do it. Yeah. So there's no like, oh, you don't have a passion for that or let's look at something else.

39:50 Whereas like, I'm more of the idea of, you know, OK, you find something that you're passionate about, you don't work a day, a day in your life, right. You know, you work hard at doing that because you love doing. It doesn't feel like it's hard work. Their idea is if you're not working hard, then you're not achieving. Yeah. The only way you're achieving is by working hard. Yeah. So there's actually a, a grading system that I've heard a friend of mine talk about this in her household around like Tiger parenting and she's Vietnamese as well.

40:13 And she said that basically A equals average. Right in the grading, B equals bad, C equals catastrophe, D equals disowned, F equals forgotten. Oh my God. So yeah, so even when you're achieving as high as you possibly can of an A grade, you're still not good enough because you've got to work harder. So I think that's what even Han said this in one of his statements, that he wanted them to be the best. It wasn't good enough to be in to get A's and and whatever they had to be #1 and so much so they were actually quite disappointed that Jennifer didn't finish top of her class one year, like as valedictorian of her class.

40:55 And this is kind of where things started to unravel for Jennifer. But they were really disappointed that she hadn't finished top of her class and someone else had achieved that. And I think, and yet unfortunately, I think teachers had almost indicated to her that she was going to receive that, whatever that I call it, I think I'll. Call it that, but it's not. Yeah, sorry. So different countries call it different things. But yeah, I think it was alluded to her that she would be receiving that award at the end of elementary school and she didn't get it, which so that kind of triggered what what school life then became.

41:30 Absolutely. So, yeah. So she had gone from being a really clever high achieving. Yeah, she was getting A's and A classes. In primary school to moving on to high school where things, I guess you know, there's a big jump between primary and high school different the way you know, even the way classes are structured and, and the content and you are then by the time you get to high school, we all know, we've all been there. You're working towards potentially like further study or a career or whatever.

41:55 So. But also hormones kick in so. Yeah. I mean, it's a very complicated time of life, isn't it? But Jennifer's basically gone from being this A+ sort of student in primary school or in elementary school to then sort of being AB or C average student. And apparently she like was not getting that valedictorian basically had this attitude of like, why try? Why even bother? Why bother? I'm, you know, yeah. So what did she do to make sure that her parents believed she was still doing the AS&A Pluses. She started forging her report cards at the age of 14.

42:28 Mm Hmm. So that her parents believed she was getting the As and was incredibly intelligent. She was averaging AC at the time. Yeah, but I don't know. I'm trying to work out in in 2000 and whatever year that would have been. Well, well, early mid 2002 thousand and five. Yeah, yeah. Sort of stuff she was able to use Photoshop skills to be able to turn AC into an AI mean wouldn't you go AB? Like wouldn't that be easy to shake? But she. Wouldn't have been able to go home with. AB that would have. Been not have been good enough.

42:57 So she's but the effort that would have gone into making it doing that, I think why don't you go into some sort of field of like, I don't know. Graphic design, yeah, or something. Playdious strength, clearly good here. Yeah. She forged so many documents over the the coming years. Yeah, she forged. So she's gone through high school. She actually never officially graduated from high school because she failed her final year calculus exam. And so she was one credit off actually graduating from high school.

43:29 Prior to that, though, she had actually received an early entry offer into Ryerson University. I think just studying a general science degree was it. I can't remember I. Just I think it was, I think it was just a general science degree. Her parents were happy with that. So they obviously they wanted her to study pharmacy at the University of Toronto. That was their dream for her. Yeah. But the fact that she got early entry into RYESS and Uni, they were actually, I think they were proud. I think I already knew she wasn't didn't get the mark.

44:00 She wasn't gonna get the marks to get in immediately to pharmaceutical studies at Toronto University. I think I already were aware that that's not where she was. Even though she was getting well, they thought she was getting all A's. I think so. I think it wasn't still good enough to get her into that. So I think she's already had to tell them that I haven't. I'm not going to get into there. But if I do a couple years at Rice and doing this, then I can transfer across. She'd already, like, figured it out, figured it out of what she was going to.

44:28 Do and I guess you know image wise, which I know plays a part in this as well. Her parents were able to say well she gained early entry they want and they she I think she originally was offered a $3000 scholarship, so some money she. Told them that. Yeah, some money towards it. Well she was definitely 100%. She was originally offered early entry. I think The $3000 scholarship has never been either proven or disproven. Nobody really knows because Ryerson actually withdrew their offer when they found out she didn't graduate from high.

45:00 School, you have to have your high. School. High school certificate? Absolutely. Yep. Yep. So she still went. So her parents believe she'd graduated from high school. Yeah. With really great Marks and that she was going in to Ryerson University to study science for a few years as a an alternate pathway, I guess, into pharmacy. Yeah. She buys all the textbooks she attends. Well, she tells them she's attending the orientation week for the university. They drive her there. Yeah. And drop her there.

45:33 Yeah, but she doesn't have a place. So during this time, so this was two years of her life that she was doing this, She was doing lots of different things, but not actually attending university. I think now is a good time to introduce Mr. Wong into. The picture, yeah, that's a good idea, yeah. So when Jennifer was in high school, she was part of a music program and they went over to Europe for some. What was that for? Do you might remember it? Was like for some concert. Or seeing the yeah. Yeah, and on that trip, she met a boy named.

46:10 Daniel Wong. Thank you. I was just about to call him Eddie, but that's another guy. That's another character in this story. Yeah, Daniel Wong and he they hit it off straight away. I think she. Had a, she had an asthma attack because on this trip people were smoking in Europe. It's was far more, you know, considered fine over there more so than back home. So a lot of the kids were picking up sort of a bit of smoking over there and stuff when their travels. And she apparently had got quite a nasty, like, asthma attack.

46:37 And Daniel was apparently fantastic and really got and got her away from it, calmed her down, you know, got her over these asthma attacks. So they just sort of bonded over that immediately and really connected. Yeah. So she, I think she could have fell from him pretty, pretty quick. And he was a year older than her. Yes, eight-year older. Yeah, yeah. They didn't start dating immediately. They would became just good friends for a long time. But as soon after them getting back from that trip, I believe they started.

47:01 After the trip, yeah, they started dating, but Jennifer wasn't allowed to date. She I think she was 16 at this time when they when they sort of started dating. Well, it. Could have even been early, actually, no, it would have been more like 14. OK. She must have been pretty, pretty young at that point. Which? When they first met, yeah. Yeah, they were having to sort of go behind Jennifer's parents backs and, you know, sneak around, but. So this is during high school time, but by the time Jennifer doesn't graduate from high school and moves on to.

47:36 Not Ryerson, Danny was actually working at a pizza place at the time and as a manager or something. Yeah. Boston Pizza and he got her a job there. So some of them eventually got a job there. Yeah. Yeah, eventually she. So during the day, she'd either go and sit in a cafe and have A at lunch, she'd go to the university library and just sit and tool around and use the Internet there. She would take lunch to Danny on his lunch breaks before she got a job there. Not really a productive use of her time.

48:12 She would. So she was earning a bit of money that her parents didn't know about by working at this Boston Pizza. She also was teaching piano to like, family friends. So she did have a, you know, a pretty modest income. So she had a little bit of money at her disposal. But you know, her parents were also supporting her in that they were giving her money for for different bits and pieces for. Thinking she was a uni student. University, yeah, that's it. Like, you know, 40 or 50 bucks. Yeah. I need to be able to buy lunch today or whatever.

48:44 Yeah. Yeah. So she kept this ruse going and going. Yeah. And going. So in that time frame too, Danny at one stage was put over by police for he was, what he was doing was selling marijuana. He was found with I think about half a pound of marijuana in his car. He did do a little bit of time I think, or he was offence. To sort of probation. Probation. Yeah, yeah. Then he actually went to. Jail. No, but yeah, did. He was arrested for it and everything. So he was known to police in some form and more sort of in that scene, a little bit of, you know, buying drugs and selling drugs, et cetera.

49:23 But obviously with what I mean, Jennifer said was that because, you know, this asthma attack kind of thing that she had with smoking and things he said to her, you stay well away from it. She wasn't involved in it, but still, I mean, not great. When when she was interviewed about this in her, I believe this was her second police interview. Yeah, I, I just, it really made me take note because the the detective says to her, do you like, were you involved with the drugs? And she's like, absolutely not.

49:52 I had nothing to do with it. I, she was so resolute in what she was saying. Yeah. And then, you know, a few minutes later in the interview, they say something about, well, did you have any involvement in, in the death of your mother? Yeah. And she's like, and she kind of is like, you know, and she really skirts around it. So I believe that she had no involvement in the drug side of things with Danny. But obviously we've come to learn something else. It was like it was such a juxtaposition between her reaction of when she absolutely hadn't done something to when when she hadn't.

50:24 When she's such a good liar, Yeah, like, because, I mean, she's lied, like, for a number of years. By the time she's in this interview room about this incident, she's been lying consistently for 10 years about her entire life. And not only to her parents, it comes out that she's been lying to Danny. She's lied to friends, family. Yeah, nobody really knows the truth of her life aside from her. But I also, I also truly, truly believe that there were lies that she told so many times that she believed them herself.

50:54 Yeah, yeah. There's got to be a level of that. Yeah, yeah. Which we can talk about. I've got a a little bit of influence on what we maybe think of diagnosis of things. Yeah, we can. Maybe we'll get to that more towards the end. Yeah, yeah. So we're basically now at the point where Jennifer's at university, not at university at Ryerson, and it's time for her to kind of then move on to the University of Toronto to study pharmacology and the web of lies. Just continues. Continues Yeah. Yeah. And at one stage she volunteered.

51:28 Well, she said told her parents she was volunteering at a hospital doing like blood draws and things like that or something. Yeah, flaws me that even that someone would volunteer and do that. Like you could actually volunteer and actually get that role. But anyway, yeah. But her parents that are cottoning on to this fact that this, well, the dad was like, well, hang on a second. To do something like that in a hospital, you need to have, you know, badges and stuff to swipe in and swipe out. You need scrubs or something, something.

51:53 Yeah. And she didn't have any of that stuff because she was still living at home. There was none of that stuff being seen. And so he questioned this. And so he drove. They drove her to work one day to drop her off, which they did multiple times. But on this particular day, he said BIC, you get out of the car and you follow her in and watch her go in, to which then she's bolted into the hospital and hidden for hours in three the hospital. Three hours in the emergency department. She hid. Oh. God, you know, just to avoid this sort of situation.

52:21 But the questions started coming then at her of like what was going? That was sort of her downfall. She did have to. She did at that point fess up that, yeah, she wasn't attending university. She wasn't didn't have that job, you know, So they did find out at that point. That she wasn't attending the University of Toronto. They still, at that point, believed she'd attended Rice. Yeah, they thought there that that's right. So that, so they're basically like, well, I know because they didn't find out, apparently find out at some point that she hadn't even got a GED like they didn't.

52:47 That was later. Yeah, right. Yeah. But yeah, eventually. It kind of all came out very, very. Slowly, as things unravelled. For they basically said to her at the time, right? Yeah. So they've become more and more strict. They've figured out, OK, you're not at the University of Toronto. You're not, you don't have this internship or this whatever volunteer job that you say you've got. Yeah. So you are going to now work to get in to the University of Toronto. Yeah. They've made like, I think they've put a curfew on her.

53:14 She's allowed, not allowed to go out after 9:00 PM or something. Now by this stage, she's an adult like. Well, this is it. I mean also in that in they've also know already that at one stage prior to that that she was they found out she was dating Daniel Wong, which they should already had massive arguments over that with their parents with their parents. That one she wasn't allowed to date anyone, let alone a guy who only works at a pizza restaurant and is a drug dealer. Like I don't blame him. He.

53:38 Was studying engineering. He was always, I mean, yeah, their belief was he wasn't gonna be able to provide a life for her. I mean, I'd be a bit anti the drug dealing situation as well, but hundred, the fact you've been working in a pizza shop and studying, I don't have an issue with that. Not at all. But yeah, so. And particularly at her age, I guess, yeah, that's an issue. But yeah, so they had already forbidden her from continuing our relationship with him and all those sorts of things as well.

54:01 So is this the point where they gave her the ultimatum? It's either Danny or us. Yeah, pretty. Much said to her, Yeah, like, so you here's your choice. Basically, you, you can go be with Danny. You can leave them. That's it. We cut ties. Like, you move out and you're on your own. Because I have. We should say, too. While she was at university, she was telling her parents that it was too hard for her to do the travel back and forth and to commit to her studies. She would stay at a friend's house, Topaz and and on some days of the week, I think three nights a week I think.

54:31 It was Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday night. Yeah, she would stay, she would stay there. Topaz with Topaz. So cool. So it's apparently and then and then the other nights, the week she was at home with her parents. So and her parents were OK with that because it was about her studying and everything. But it came the dad actually rang Tobaz. That's when it really came on unraveling for her. She he rang Topaz to say, you know. Well thanks for supporting our door and helping with that. What a narc Jesus.

54:54 Total narc. OK so this makes me think because Topaz is like oh she's literally never stayed a night here. No wouldn't. You word your friend up and just say hey, I'm gonna hang out at my. Boyfriend. What I'm saying? That's what I'm saying, Yeah. So Jennifer hasn't even had this conversation with Topaz to go. Hey mate, cover for me please. Because I mean, if you, if you, I can imagine us, we weren't teenagers knowing each other, but we were totally targeted for this buck. I mean, that's. What you do with your friends?

55:17 Yeah. So she like she like totally did not carry through the line and said, I don't know, she's have been living here, she's never. She actually said like she's never stayed here for one night. No, no, and then found out that she's been staying with Danny that time, which his family even like they were lying who she was lying to them saying that her parents knew about this arrangement that she was going to be staying there three nights a week and they were great. Let's have let's do dinner and let's catch up.

55:41 Parents wanted. To meet because, I mean, this was obviously quite a serious relationship, had been going on for years. And yeah, his parents obviously liked Jennifer and and welcomed her into their home. And this sort of point, they've been sort of on and off dating for like 8 years. Yes, a long time. Like so yeah, wouldn't you then embrace this relationship then? But. But then, yeah, Danny kind of got fed up with it, didn't he? Like he, he. Respected the fact that her parents were like, this isn't gonna work, like kind of thing.

56:07 And he did. I think all you could do in that situation if Jen, if Jennifer really was gonna keep her family in her life. Yeah, I think I need to bow out. I think that he maybe just wasn't as in love with her as he she was with. Him. I think that's true. I think that's true, yeah. I mean, he, he obviously cared for her. And that comes out over, Yeah, over the course of the the events that happened and the events that unfold. He obviously had some care for her. Yeah. But I think you're right. I think she was more into him than he was into her.

56:35 And basically he just got. He'd had enough, You know, by this stage, Jennifer's 2424 years of age, She's got a 9:00 PM curfew. She has to call him off a SIM card that her parents don't know about because her parents still confiscate her phone. Yeah. And it just like as a 24 year old man, or he would have been 2526 at the time. Of course, you'd be like, yeah, now this is just too much for me. I just can't. So I'm bowing out of this. Yeah. And so he's done that and he's he's broken off ties with her.

57:08 She is still, like, I would say, obsessed with you. She everything she does is to sort of win him back. Win him back. But he meets another woman named Christine. Christine. I was going to say Caroline. I think you're right, Christine. No, you're absolutely. It is Christine. And in February 2010, he starts dating this Christine. Yeah. And he, like, you know, by all accounts things were going quite well between them. But Jennifer decides to put a bit of a spanner in the works. And she rings Danny one day and says to him that she answered her door and a couple of a man who was dressed as a police officer came in and a couple of other men came in behind him and they gang raped her.

57:57 Oh my God, I'm sorry. What? What? And he's like and, and Christine sent them. It was all Christine's fault. Yeah, so apparently she had sent her a message on Facebook or something as well. Like, hey, stay out of stay away from a boyfriend, like anything. Fair enough. Stay away. You've. Broken up with him like leave him alone. That, but that was used then as her evidence to Danny of like it was her. She's telling me to back off. And did this, didn't Jennifer also say that she received a bullet in the mail or something from Christine?

58:23 Yeah, like weird shit. And none of none of this was. True. None of us. She was never gang raped. Christine never did anything aside from send her a messenger to say. One or two text messages or a Facebook message or something to say yeah, back off like she's. Mine now, yeah, that's. Weird. I don't think there was anything much in that in terms of that. But yeah. But then but oddly enough, Danny starts getting threatening messages and so does Christine. And so but so does Jennifer. Like so there's this who's sending these messages which came into it a bit of like the into the interviews about Bick and Hans attack because it was like, well, yeah, well, we've been getting these threatening messages and don't know who they're from.

59:01 Like could this be the person who's, you know, now in done this crime? So yeah, it was like, well, bit odd like. But she said like she sent messages like bang, bang, bang. Well, he received messages like that, but quite threatening messages then. And like, so the cops were a bit like, it's curious what's going on here. Interesting. But Jennifer used that as a need to contact Danny as well and be like, well, you know, I've just received, you know, he, she was sort of appealing to him to sort of look out for her and whatnot.

59:29 Yeah, yeah.

59:32 It's a it's an incredibly complicated. Oh, it's a web she has absolutely created there. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So basically at this point, the cops have really got a picture here of a girl who's lied, you know, for 10 years about her entire life. She's LED a complete double life. There's Danny Wong. He's got connections in the drug world and so there's no and there's no other things that are in there this life that would indicate someone that would come into a home and commit this crime against this family.

1:00:10 So they start sort of peeling back the layers a bit more on all of this. And as that sort of starts unraveling a little, the next thing happens is that three days after this, Han Pan wakes up. So he's been in an induced coma for three days and he wakes up. And not only does he just wake up from his induced coma, this miracle occurs. He remembers everything about that night. Yeah. Which I mean, you wouldn't. I mean, I think they were basically told by the the the hospital, even if he does wake up, chances are he's gonna be potentially impacted quite severely, you know, around positively.

1:00:47 Yeah, from this, the way the bullets, you know, gone and things. So don't expect much, you know he came out bang. Well, apparently I'm remembering everything. The police thought it was quite almost amusing because he's woken up from this coma and they go in to interview him thinking he's gonna be like, yeah, lying down. He's sitting up in bed. I mean, he, he was. He was. Yeah, and all that kind. Of Yeah. And apparently, like, he couldn't speak very well. Or speak. Yeah, yeah. But he was sitting up in bed like a man who's been shot in his face.

1:01:15 He's still got bullet fragments in his face and his shoulder. And also apparently very one of the very first things he actually said. I think it might have been to a nurse or someone was I don't want Jennifer coming anywhere near me. Yep, like something. Although they did call her and she did go to visit him. Yeah. But she was like the police or so at this time, you know, they also had their suspicions. And they did not allow Jennifer to be unaccompanied with her father. So there was always somebody in the room whenever she.

1:01:45 Well. You don't baby it. Nervous of what she might not even just speak to him about, but pull a plug. I don't know. So what? This is the bit that really gets me. So we'll talk about the police interview in one second. What came out of that about that? But when Jennifer went to see him after he's woken up from his coma, she asked him for money. Yes. Like $1200. Yeah. She was like, oh, I'm going to pay my college. I'm going. To pay my college tuition, yeah, but I'm not. Which isn't actually real, no.

1:02:16 I need $1200. Yes, that's right. What? You absolute fucking Dick head. Off Yep. Yep. Like OMG, so that just goes no way and how you're. Feeling. Yeah. Are you OK? What can we do? Oh, my God. We've got a plan. Mum's funeral we've got. And in this time actually as well, in that three days that Han was in a coma. Yeah. Because Father passed away. So he was a very elderly man at the time. I think he was in his 90s. Yeah. And he actually passed away in the family. Think he passed away from heartbreak because his daughter.

1:02:51 Daughter died. Bless. That just so. Yeah, like this man who's what he's just gone through to also then have to break to him. I mean, I from what I can gather. And again, it's very culturally that, you know, generational generations of families, you know, they are very close. So to break it to him that his father-in-law has passed away and his wife is is passed away. I mean, I think he already knew that because he found her obviously when he he came to apparently, and this is from his account of events, like we knew that he somehow got out the front, but he said that he he saw her feet immediately when he came to and knew that she was dead and that and that's when he made his way out the front and.

1:03:34 He said there was so much blood, but yeah. Oh, God. So his account is really interesting. So at at this point, obviously the only eyewitness they, the police, have been able to interview is Jennifer. Yeah. He when he's interviewed, he actually says that at certain points throughout the ordeal, he sees one of the assailants, like, whispering gently to Jennifer. Jennifer was just walking freely around the house. She wasn't bound at this point at all. And so he obviously has, well, he he thinks Jennifer's involved right from the get go and tells the police he's smart.

1:04:15 He. Was adamant from the get go he could see that she was. And he basically, apparently he said to the police, you go and do your job like you like, yeah, I've given you what you I need to give you. You go and use your police skills. Yeah. Yeah, and and get her. Yeah. Yeah, he was, he knew straight away. Yeah. So the other bit of evidence they did have as well, which I mean, it lines aligns with what Jennifer was saying was that they were able to get some CCTV footage from a house across the street where they can see three men entering the house again, without any force.

1:04:45 They walked straight through that front door and they can see the three men. It's very grainy footage. So there was absolutely no way of identifying these men as being, you know, that that her her description of them was accurate or not, but definitely three men. You could see very grainy images exiting the building, exiting the house as well. And and what time. And so the time's definitely married up of what she was talking about. But what that also married up to were text messages and phone calls that were being made on the night.

1:05:11 So yeah, there was lots of. So that along with then Hans witness statement, it all came into yeah. So Jennifer had like a burner phone, so she had her main phone and she gave the police authority to look into her phone records for that. Again, that was very interesting in the interview when the police officer asks her for access to her phone, basically to go to look at, you know, and, and rightly so, again, thinking that she's very much a victim in this situation to kind of go like what time did certain things happen?

1:05:42 And, and he was talking to her about the fact that they would do that to be able to see, you know, you might think in days later there was someone you're talking to that this might relate to, you know, that there is some someone who has got, you know, a grudge against your dad or your mom or, you know, something. So they might come up in days in a few days time that we need to then go back to the phone and go, Ah, that's who that person is. We might be able to track that from that number, who that person is and where, you know, he goes.

1:06:03 It just, we need to have that information which did hand it over, wouldn't you? She questioned. It something shocking, didn't you? How far back into my phone are you gonna look? What are you gonna look at? Who are you gonna contact? From there because from there because. Sometimes I call my teachers and he's like, well, we're not gonna be contacting your teachers. We're gonna contact people who are relevant in this case, like, you know, we're not going to just ring everyone you've spoken to in the last 9 days.

1:06:27 Although who knows? Because the other thing that is interesting and this as the interviews go on. So she was eventually interviewed three times by the police, first time immediately after, no real suspicions of her. Second interview, they've got a lot more information. They've spoken to Danny and they're sort of starting to really form their. Their case, one of their points, main things they wanted to get out of them was how on earth did she make this call? Yeah, yeah. They pulled her in to really ask her about that.

1:06:55 Yeah, but she, you know, over by the time they get to the third interview, they've discovered she's got a burner phone. They ask her about that and she. And that might have been come earlier because she admitted to the fact that she to contact Danny because they, I think it might have been in the second interview, OK, about it saying, well, they knew there was a relationship with this Danny Wong, that he was a name they need to look at that She'd already said, oh, yeah, I had to use a different phone, Danny.

1:07:18 Danny gave me another phone and an old iPhone so I could contact him and I'd take the SIM out of that and and use that and things like like that. So she was, she'd already admitted that she had additional phones. She must have had more than that, though, because she had three, I think. Yeah, because she had the one that she was sending the text messages to Danny and Christine and they're threatening messages. So that wouldn't have been the same one that she was no legitimately contacting Danny on and then the one that her family knew about.

1:07:41 So there's got to be at least three that she was using. Yeah. Which again, I mean, I don't even know. I don't know how to do that. Yeah, but and also like, the fact that she's keeping track of all that must have been exhausting. Go on. Well, to be honest, the worst thing that I would have not wanted the cops to see with looking into her phone were her gross, sappy messages between her and Danny. Have you read? Yeah, the Monkey it's faulting. It's it's gross, but I also, the other thing, so do I, but I also found that it was really juvenile.

1:08:13 And I was like, oh, maybe these are text messages from when they were in high school, but it wasn't. It was from when they were in there. Like they were recent. They were within the six. No, not even, I think it was like 3 months prior. Yeah. So Danny's with this other girl at the time. Yeah. Yeah. Christine. Yeah. And he's sending these fucking sappy ass text messages. It was I was like really, but I bit vomiting. It's something that I would. I've sent to my boyfriend when I was in year 7. Like it's not.

1:08:38 I would never. Have as a 24. I'm sorry as a 20. Four, I'll read you my opinion of you. You can't. You can't say messages like this is really gross. I'll read it out and I'll tell you what. I'll try not to vomit. I would rather listen to a story of like someone being disemboweled like and murder any day of the week than this crap like. This yeah, but we we've got a true crime podcast. I know this is mushy as this is so great. OK go. OK, what is that monkey MUNKY pokes monkey side that's from Jennifer and then Danny Wong.

1:09:12 Huh? What's a wrong from then Jennifer Squishy face craving attention Jennifer chickens got cluck and monkey say Danny oh oh oh me oh oh oh Jennifer meez nose nose used monkey make meez sound maybe no harm. OK, I have. I have literally never sent a text message like that. I'm. Glad to hear it. So yeah, that's that's the kind of stuff that's how they spoke like full. Baby talk vomit. It's gross, Gross. It's gross, but also way below their years. Like, like immature, Yeah. Yes, I mean. But then that that, you know, the control that Jennifer's parents had and the way they limited her, they wanted her to be young.

1:10:05 They wanted her to be like that. But then in limiting her like that, I think that's created this absolute pressure cooker of a situation that has resulted in what what has then come. I am not saying there is any justification for the fact that what we now know is that Jennifer ordered a hit on her parents. She has been convicted of of lie of murder, attempted murder in the first degree and attempted murder and conspiracy to commit murder. Her and her accomplices, which again, we'll get to in a SEC in more depth, but nothing like literally nothing justifies the fact that she has brought that upon her family.

1:10:49 One of the things that I find really interesting though, is that her parents, so they've given her this ultimatum. Either it's Danny or us, and she's chosen her family, but her family have also never set her up to be able to live in society as a functioning adult. So she's had a curfew on her. You know, she's 24 years old, and she has to be home by 9:00 PM She still has to practice piano for a certain number of hours a day. Yeah. She's. She's so controlled. She's so tightly bound within the confines of that house.

1:11:26 Yeah. Now, OK, she has lied to her parents. This has been found out. But at the end of the day, she's an adult. Yeah. Control could they possibly have over her? This is the thing. So that style of parenting that we were talking about. So there's actual research that's been put into this, right? So, so children that grow up in that controlling environment of their parent that when they're overly strict and punitive, that some of the effects of that are that they have an increased risk of anxiety, low self esteem and depression, more likely to be pathological, sorry, psychologically maladjusted, have difficulty in decision making in their own life, have difficulty forming close relationships with others and finding like themselves.

1:12:14 OK and and fending for themselves as well in terms of like standing up for themselves in situations. Absolutely. Yep. They have a greater fear of making mistakes. So I don't want to disappoint anyone and have a lower sense of family obligation, lower grade point average, which is a complete opposite of what they want. Higher level of alienation and a higher level of academic pressure. Obviously have an increased risk of self harm and suicidal behaviour among particularly Asian children. OK and young young adults and they have issues with self-discipline as they were not taught how to man do that for themselves.

1:12:49 And their children, that's my point. Like they, she hasn't had the opportunity to learn how to not be in the world independently. So she wouldn't have even had the tools within herself, I don't think to be able to leave that family unit. No, that she hadn't been brought up. Like, you know, one of one of the measures of success for me as a parent is that my kids will be able to be functioning, you know, well adjusted adults who can contribute positively in society without, without my intervention.

1:13:19 Yeah, without needing to call me every 5 minutes and ask me what to do. Like that is, that's a huge thing for me and. But, and unfortunately, The thing is that research has also changed the whole flip side of that though, which is what I think really drives them with this wanting to to parent like this is that there's a whole heap of research around that. This The fact is that Harvard University, the most prestigious university I think in all of America, maybe even the world, potentially 30% of freshmen of their intake is Asian, whereas only 5% of the population is Asian.

1:13:54 Oh. Wow, OK. So in Australia there's been studies done on children who come from Asian backgrounds and from then Australian backgrounds Asian children are more likely to to, particularly maths. Maths is probably the highest one. I'm more likely to, I'm more likely to achieve 2 1/2 years higher worth of learning than an Australian culturally raised child. Yeah. So it's an interesting goes down to about I think it's at least a year ahead of Australian children with children from an Asian background.

1:14:28 So there's definitely academically there's certainly outcomes that are valid. So that and but when academic emotional, I was going to say academics don't make a person. No. So emotionally though, that impact is huge. Yeah. So and then whether or not it and then it comes down to what you deem as successful. In terms of your parenting, Yep. And I guess from, you know, potentially in a household, the way you're raising a child like that, their academic success is what you were achieved when #1 when you achieved it.

1:15:00 Yeah. In a household. In a different household, it might be that the success means that you're independent and able to function society all these things in a positive way then maybe not so successful in that unfortunately, yes, yeah. But So what was also I was mentioning there too is that so Jennifer also did a lot of self harm. So which a lot of people then actually then link to suicidal, but it doesn't necessarily so because when you're self harming, you're actually not wanting to hurt. You're wanting to hurt yourself to a point where and create pain for yourself, but not to actually end your life.

1:15:39 Yeah. So there is a difference. And that it's believed that she was she was purely doing self harm of like some cutting, I think it was. Yeah, it was cutting. Yeah. So what that's also an indicator of though is is a borderline personality disorder. So put my psychologist hat on, but one personality disorder hampers a person's ability to regulate their own emotions, right? So there's lack of impulse control, extreme mates, extreme mood swings, and they see the world very black and white. So there's a lot of potentially that's what's going on here with her.

1:16:15 And not necessarily would that be triggered by the tiger parenting. OK. Does it? There isn't really maybe a connection between the two. OK. So if she's got that environment but also got borderline personality disorder, that's where this combusted from. Right. Potentially. Well, there are a lot of children of tiger parents who don't go on to exactly kill them. So there's obviously a lot of complexity at play here. Yeah. And as we said, it was at the top of this episode. This is such a complex case, and it's very nuanced.

1:16:54 And, you know, as you said, it's not something that we can understand because we haven't been brought up in a family like that. Yeah. But again, not everybody who's brought up in that in kind of environment. In fact, most people don't then go on to conspire to kill their parents. And I mean, I have to wonder, like, her brother didn't do this, you know, kind of thing. He was raised in a second. Although he's a boy and she's a girl, so there were and expectations of them. There were differences in how they were treated.

1:17:22 Yeah. However, if you've got a 14 year old who is mucking around and doing things and like not. They knew at the time that she was forging her report cards, but I dare say there were other behaviours going on. They felt they knew that at 1416 and stuff like this she was dating a boy that they didn't want her dating. All these sorts of things to get to 24, still living under your roof and you find out she's not been to university for years, all these sorts of things. As a parent you've got to go, what the hell, what do I do to get you back on track?

1:17:52 Not I'm not advocating for them doing what they did in terms of setting those boundaries, but I in some way can understand that they were. They were desperate. What they? Desperate to try and get their child back on track of like all the like. When you go back to who she was before 14, she was, you know, exceeding in her piano lesson, she was exceeding in her her ice skating. Clearly she was probably more physical able than academically able, I think, and that's maybe where they potentially went wrong in that side of like in rather than but then she got injured.

1:18:21 So that's I know piano could have been something a passion. I don't know, but I don't know. I do question that whole like can understand somewhat than putting in these boundaries for her and they did give her an out and said, you know, you can move on, like move out and be on your. Own they'd set her up to not be able to be out and be on her own. So I feel like she almost didn't have a choice in that respect because what would she have done? You know well. She could moved in with her boyfriend I. Guess yeah.

1:18:46 Yes, I get that. But she had then no backing. And, you know, she's been told her whole life that her family is everything. Yeah. She couldn't turn her back on that. Like her core beliefs. I don't think it would allow for that. Yeah. What she was told her core beliefs were because I think you're right, when when you were describing some of those traits, she didn't have a sense of self at all. No, she kind of just let everyone. She she she adapted her personality and her behaviour. Yeah. To the person she was interacting with.

1:19:17 Absolutely. She didn't have that true sense of self which you develop over those high school years. Yeah. But she'd already started at that point lying. And that kind of became her core. She was absolutely. Oh, God. Yeah. So basically just really quickly to wrap this up, because Yeah, I've just noticed the time, you know, we've been chatting for ages, but she basically through Daniel Wong, she has arranged for and he have arranged for these men to come into the house and and kill her parents. Yeah, she attempted one prior.

1:19:54 Once prior with someone else that ended up being paid up. Yep, that was fake. So that was with. Yep, that was fake. Everything multiple places. Ricardo. This was Ricardo. She says this is her account and it has now been 100% disproven. What she says that she paid him $1500. What? Who would kill some of the $1500? I mean, there's surely there's more money in it than that. She states that he took her money and left and he, she never heard of him or saw him again. The police have found him since, Yeah, interviewed him.

1:20:26 There's they, they know for sure that she never, she actually lent him $200 to go out one night. So he was an acquaintance of Danny Wong. Yes. And so she had given him money that he hadn't paid back, to be fair, right, 200 bucks. But she had never. And he swears. And I, I, I'm not quite sure how the police validated this, but they've come out and said he this never happened. Yeah. And she never gave him the $1500. No, no. But. What do for $1500? Yeah, literally no one. Even the 10 grand which these so these three people ended up.

1:21:04 Doing this agreeing at 5 grand a pop, so 5 grand per parent. Yeah, exactly. Split three, Well, split four ways, five ways. How many ways does it? Go, I think four ways, like if you include Danny in it, which I'm sure he took his cart being the organizer. Yeah, but they've rented a car, they've purchased guns. So that's eating into your profits, isn't it? Yeah. And the idea was that they would actually take $2000 at the time of the invasion. Yeah, they actually took 2 1/2. I. Think it was like. $3400 they ended up getting, but that was around the house, yeah.

1:21:36 That was a combo of the money Jennifer had for them, yes, and then the money they'd. Found they left all sorts of other money around the house. Yeah, which is bizarre because they've gone in there going yeah, we want your money, but have not then looked for all the. Money running out on the table, apparently even. Like, yeah, because wallet had 280 bucks or something in it. So they've gone out with yeah, it was a bit over 3 grand, I think in the end. Yeah. And then when it. So the idea was that then Jennifer would pay them the remainder when she got the inheritance in their life insurance.

1:22:09 So basically she was, I mean, and that's what they say was their motivator was that she was going to would inherit. Well, there'd be the house they owned outright, the two parents, a car each like as in like those the hair and her sibling would obviously go halves in all this. So there'd be a car which would be a Lexus or a Mercedes, like a nice, nice brand car. So a fair bit of money there. Plus there was a $1 million life insurance policy over the two of them. So then it would be half a million of that that she would get so decent.

1:22:34 And she'd pay them the remainder of the $8000. Yeah, when she got that. More than that out of yeah half 1,000,000 bucks. When she got that settlement, one of the perpetrators was named Leonard Crawford, and he was known as Homeboy. Homeboy, Oh. So 2010. Homeboy, yeah. So he was kind of, I think, the main guy. Yeah, he was the contact kind of thing. They sort of say that Eddie was the he was the more seasoned. Right. So he was actually already being looked at for a murder at another another murder at the time.

1:23:14 And he was then convicted of that murder. Yeah, so he's he'd already. He had a rap sheet. Yeah. So they say that he was actually the the lead. Yeah, but yeah. But Lenny was the sort of the contact and organizing it all. So to this day though, they don't actually know who pulled the trigger and who's bullet bullets actually caused the harm and. They all had guns. They all had guns. Yeah. And they all sort of have not, not come forward, no. Really, they're not ratting on each other. No, the other.

1:23:43 So there was Eric Cardi. He was sorry, Eric, not Eddie. Yeah, Eddie, I don't know that I think that was me. Sorry. It was Eric Cardi. He was known as Sniper. Oh, I didn't know. Yeah. That was his nickname. And then there was David Mel Vanegas. I was like still trying to get. You did that one. And I don't, I didn't actually find a nickname for him, so no, I disappointed. All right. So they were the three along with Eddie. So Eddie wasn't there on sorry, Daniel wasn't there on the night, but he obviously had a hand in, he knew these criminals from his sort of drug connections and whatnot.

1:24:21 But those three were the ones who in the house were in the house and perpetrated the crime. They all, including Jennifer, all 5, all 5 went to trial together. So they were all charged with all the exact same crimes. So they were all charged with a. 1st degree murder. Murder. 1st degree murder, attempted murder of Han and conspiracy to commit murder. Yeah. The trial was originally set, so I think they went to trial in, was it 2014, In March of 2014, it was slated to go for five months. It went for 10, Yeah.

1:24:57 They had countless witnesses. Countless, you know, yeah, testimonials and whatnot, I think. It was all the text messages they had, yeah, lined up. So there's all these messages that were like basically Jennifer saying, you know, that we they're good to go, basically, yeah. They could line up all the times of that with the CCTV footage they had of like the. Mentoring and the other thing that was really interesting from the CCTV from the neighbour's house is like they were able to show that she signalled that it was time for them to come in by flicking a light on and off.

1:25:25 Yes, yes. So yeah, they, they had so much that really went towards the fact that this was definitely premeditated and planned. Yeah, they all pleaded not guilty. Yes. Jennifer's case is that she actually wanted them to kill her and not her parents, because if she were to commit suicide, because she felt so oppressed and whatever, that that would actually bring shame on the family. And she didn't want to do that. So if she was murdered, that would, you know, avoid that situation for her family. To this day, that is her story.

1:25:54 To this day, she maintains her innocence and that she didn't want her mother and father killed. But if that's the truth, why was she wandering around the house with the criminals while her mum and dad were in the basement about to get shot? Yeah. Yeah, girl, come on, come on. It doesn't actually line. Up nothing. Nothing lines up with. That, but yeah. So eventually they were all convicted Well. Yeah, Eric was his lawyer during the trial fell I'll so he actually was then it was given a mistrial for him.

1:26:25 The others were all convicted of all the exact same thing, 25 years to life and. On all counts, All. Counts. Yeah, Eric then had to sit a new trial where he received, he actually I think he convicted on a conspiracy. Yeah, so he didn't go to trial. He pled guilty. He pled guilty, sorry, conspiracy to commit murder and he was given 18 years yeah, for that. But he was also gonna be in inferred 25 to life on this other murder that occurred. So he was being added to that sentence. But unfortunately in 2018 he was killed in jailed.

1:26:56 Unfortunately, unfortunately, he's no. Longer whatever. He's no longer with us, so. The other 4 remaining that have all received 25 years to life, they have just recently been one given a retrial. So it's been found that in the first trial, unfortunately the judge has not given the jury instructions that were appropriate. So he's given them quite narrow parameters. He basically told them that they could only convict of what the charges were, as opposed to giving them alternatives for the murder charge.

1:27:27 Yeah, so the. Technically, he said like he that basically you can only basically said like you can only consider like two different stories being accurate. So basically Jennifer's story of her that they were there to kill, kill me, not my parents, couldn't be considered. He sort of only gave them these two options, which meant that it narrowed that they could only be convicted of those outcomes, not like, say manslaughter or something like that instead. Yeah. So it's it's. I get why it's happened so.

1:27:58 The the retrial is only for the murder conviction, yes. So the conspiracy to commit and the and the yeah, the attempt attempted murder still stand. Yeah. So it'll be interesting. And that they're actually serving all of those sentences concurrently. So if, if something, if the murder charge is brought out, they they can actually, they'll get out, yeah. So that's, there's been a date set I believe for June next year, 2025. So there'll be an update for this one. Yeah. But yeah, that's be very interesting to see what happens because I'd hate to think, to be honest, that they get out.

1:28:32 I'd love to hear your thoughts though, on the fact that they've all been given at the moment, 25 to life. Danny's role in this was literally Jennifer, this is my mate, Homeboy. He'll help you out. Yeah. He was going to take some of the money, so I could definitely see conspiracy to murder there. But the other two charges, yes, he didn't report to police again, but that's conspiracy. I don't know. Or maybe obstruction that could be like they could have gotten him on a different charge because. It gives me vibes of Gypsy Rose, Yep.

1:29:05 And Nick Gurdjon. Yep, that the fact like Gypsy didn't get as high a sentence as Nick. Yeah, I mean the again. But then again, Jennifer didn't pull the trigger either. But she was the person who. Who I fully, I fully think Jennifer. 'S total high and that should. Be convicted of all the things she was convicted of. Danny on the other hand, I agree with what you're saying. I I was actually quite surprised when I read that the five of them went to trial because I can understand the four not including Danny.

1:29:33 They were all in that house. And different charges to be brought upon Danny. Absolutely. Like he wasn't innocent in this, so he deserves some repercussions for his involvement. Absolutely. I don't get how he could get a murder charge. Yeah, I wonder what will happen especially for him in in this retrial. Yeah, I'm really curious as if I've missed something because I kept looking for something to kind of go, how did he get that? That doesn't quite marry up for me, but and maybe in this retrial, maybe that.

1:30:00 Will it'll be incorrect to see what comes out? Yeah. The other thing that came out of the the trial at the end was that Han and Felix requested a lifelong restraining order against Jennifer, and that was granted to them. So she's not allowed to make contact with them for the remainder of her life. Yep. And the court actually also imposed that she is not allowed to contact Danny Wong ever, ever again as well. Yeah. So, yeah, that's AI think that's probably a really good thing. Let's keep those, those guys apart.

1:30:33 Yeah, Jennifer is serving her time at the Grand Valley Institution for Women. And I guess as you said, watch this space as to what comes next and and what ends up. Happening, she's in there for life, but we'll see what happens. Yeah, could be it'll be interesting. We'll maybe we'll do a bit more live in terms of when it when the trial goes goes live, we'll we'll try and update. As it as it goes. Yeah, that sounds cool. Yeah. So I guess that comes to the end of the episode for today. It's been a bit of a long one, but you know, they all are What how do.

1:31:10 We get all this out of it. I don't know, I. Don't know our next episode we're looking into Gabby Petito. And you were just saying before we hit record today that there's been a recent update and some new? Sort of evidence. Just what evidence has been released? Yeah, just some stuff. A video clip of of what happened on the day of her disappearance, her disappearance being notified to police. So interesting little video clip that was released and why that's been released now I don't. Know forward to getting into that one because that that hits hard Oh.

1:31:41 Yeah. That's a that's a big one. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you again for joining us on today's episode, and we really look forward to seeing you again next week. Yeah, see everyone next week. Stay curious. Kind of besties.