Episode 20 - Jennifer Pan

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties to another episode.

0:18 Here we are for episode 20. Emma, did you realize that?

0:21 I did when I was writing it down.

0:23 But I am just a little bit, I'm a bit proud of us actually, to

0:27 get to 20 episodes when we first started the podcast.

0:31 And I was doing some research into like, you know, what makes

0:33 a successful podcast. Yeah, one of the things is

0:36 posting consistently, which we've been able to do, Yeah.

0:39 And also like a lot of podcasts start and might have 345

0:44 episodes and then stop. Yeah.

0:46 And so like the fact that we've reached a a 20 episode

0:49 milestone, go ask Yeah, for. Sure.

0:51 Well, I mean, kids hardly understand that too because

0:53 like, I mean, I think we worked out too, like we thought, you

0:55 know, this is easy to do, start a podcast.

0:58 Everyone does it, you know, but there's definitely lots we've

1:00 learnt doing this. Like, it's been in some ways

1:02 harder than we thought. Oh, definitely.

1:04 Like, yeah. And so we've had little hiccups

1:06 on the way and stuff, but to then stick at it and keep

1:07 pushing through all that to get to hear where, I mean, we're

1:10 recording today with what fingers crossed every time that

1:13 our audio is great. Yeah.

1:14 You know, and that we've got, you know, little bits of new

1:16 equipment and stuff along the way.

1:17 It's pretty. Cool.

1:19 Go off. Yeah.

1:19 And thanks to everybody. Yeah, thanks to everybody for

1:22 listening for 20 episodes, because if we didn't have people

1:24 listening to it, I don't know that we'd be still motivated to

1:27 make more and more episodes so. Yeah, Thank you.

1:30 Analytics keep going in the right direction.

1:32 So, so you know, it's obviously we're picking up a few extra

1:34 people along the way, which is nice.

1:35 It is nice. I, I bumped into one of the dads

1:39 at school pick up the other day. Oh yeah.

1:41 And his wife had obviously told him about our podcast and he's

1:45 like, you know what, I'm gonna give it a listen.

1:46 I'm like, well, thank you very much.

1:49 So yeah, hopefully that, you know, as people start to hear

1:52 more and more about it, we get more, more people on board for.

1:55 Sure. I love that.

1:56 And even like one of the teachers who walked up to us the

1:57 other day, like, oh, it's my two grand besties, like.

2:00 Oh, this is really awkward. Please don't tell me our kids

2:03 have been talking about it at school.

2:06 We don't let them listen. Don't worry, our kids do not

2:08 listen to the podcast. We might let them listen to the

2:10 first year or two while we're just chatting about things, but

2:14 not none of the serious stuff. It's funny though, like because

2:17 I have let them listen like the the intro episode.

2:19 I think we did like episodes, let them listen to that.

2:21 There's nothing in that. And then like maybe a few intro

2:23 bits of like various episodes and like, so Brody started like

2:27 recording his own podcast. Oh, I love it.

2:30 I. Love very gorgeous he he totally

2:32 gets into it and gets on his his iPad and in video records and

2:37 video. Records What does he what does

2:38 he podcast about? Oh well, one of the that he

2:41 recorded, it was in the car. It was bloody hilarious.

2:43 And he's like, so this is the podcast about everything.

2:45 And like, so topic number one. And like, that's really on topic

2:48 #2 and he gives a sentence on each thing and it's like, I love

2:52 it, 'cause I know everything about everything.

2:53 Oh yeah, absolutely. Course he does.

2:56 Subscribe to that podcast, Everything About Everything.

2:59 Yeah, love it. Hey, there's an idea for a spin

3:01 off for us at some point maybe? Spin off Oh come on.

3:04 Brody needs his own like episode series.

3:06 Come on. Anyway, I think we mentioned

3:11 this in our episode last week, but we again have had, you know,

3:15 a few people reaching out and asking how they can support our

3:17 channel. Yeah, again, best way to do that

3:20 is to subscribe using your podcasting app.

3:24 So best for us is in Spotify or in the Apple Purple podcasting

3:29 app, Yes, but we've actually also set up a buy me a coffee

3:36 site. So there's a link to that now, a

3:38 link to that now. Show notes below if you would

3:41 like to provide a financial contribution.

3:43 I mean, there is absolutely no pressure.

3:46 We, you know, we're doing this for fun and we love it and we

3:49 love the fact that everybody is joining us every week, but that.

3:52 That link will be in our show notes if anyone's interested.

3:56 That would be amazing. I mean, like, yeah, as, as you

3:58 say, that hitting that like or subscribe button is really the,

4:01 you know, our ultimate We, we know people listening and that

4:03 will keep us going. But obviously there are expenses

4:06 I guess involved in this as much as we're we're willing to outlay

4:08 those things 'cause we love doing it.

4:10 But you know, that little bit of help towards any of that sort of

4:12 stuff is fantastic too. Yes.

4:14 So thank you. Thank you to those who've

4:15 already, you know, had a go. Yes.

4:17 Yeah, we definitely need coffee in them when you get started on

4:20 these podcasts sometimes. Especially when we're recording

4:22 like we're rushing straight half to school drop off today.

4:24 We're gonna try and get our record done before we go and

4:27 watch our little ones do their school swimming for the day.

4:30 So just trying to fit it all in. Yeah, everything into a day.

4:34 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no.

4:36 And that's the thing with this we're getting.

4:37 So we're getting like quicker at doing it I find like yeah, we

4:40 record. So you know, we can't achieve

4:41 more into Friday when we record these.

4:44 That's right. Do you remember back in those

4:45 first few episodes it would literally take us the whole

4:47 school day to do a recording? Yeah, we'd be like, Oh my God,

4:50 shit, shit, shit. It's already 3:00.

4:52 Yeah, quickly, let's go. Yeah, after like we're recorded

4:54 and stuff because yeah, it was. It took us forever to get

4:56 everything sorted. We have to, yeah, stop and start

4:59 various points. Now it's like I've got.

5:01 This, we have got it down, yeah. So hopefully this will take us

5:04 less than what we got an hour and a bit and we'll be done.

5:08 So on that note, let's get into it this.

5:11 Case is actually bigger than we thought.

5:13 I reckon every week we say to each other, oh there's not that

5:16 much in this one, and then we actually look into it and start

5:18 researching. Oh, actually, I think there is.

5:21 Yeah, well, that's maybe it's our fault.

5:23 Maybe we just talk too much, too.

5:25 That might be part of it. I'm sure you know from the

5:28 episode title though. Today we're talking about

5:31 Jennifer Pan. There's been a Netflix

5:34 documentary recently released called What Jennifer Did on

5:38 Netflix, I think did I just mention which is it's really

5:42 good. It's a, it's a really well

5:44 produced series. Not even a series.

5:49 It's a just a doco doco. Yeah, but I've found it very one

5:54 sided, Yes. And they definitely had an

5:58 agenda as I guess these things tend to do.

6:01 Like it's it's it's told from a certain viewpoint.

6:05 And although I can absolutely understand where the where they

6:10 were coming from in the way that they presented the documentary,

6:12 I think there's so much more nuance and context to this case

6:15 that wasn't presented in that. And that's kind of why we

6:18 decided to do this episode now. Yep, that and did you notice the

6:23 AI images that he used in that documentary too?

6:26 Well Netflix have come out and said that it's not AI, that it

6:29 was actually a they have. They used digital altering of a

6:35 photo because they wanted to anonymize people in the

6:39 background of the photo. She has.

6:40 Two thumbs in one picture. Yeah.

6:42 And then the the spacing between her fingers in one of them is.

6:45 Real weird. And her tooth has been fixed in

6:47 one. Yes, too.

6:48 Yeah, yeah, it's, they're definitely like they've normed

6:50 them. Yeah, it's a bit more than a bit

6:53 of Photoshop. Photoshop.

6:54 I, I, when you look at it, because, yeah, there's one where

6:55 she's like got like she's holding up to a peace sign in

6:58 each hand. Yeah.

6:59 And one of them, like she's got too many fingers.

7:01 Yeah, but also one of the most fingers, they're way longer than

7:04 the other ones, like, yeah. But like the multiple fingers

7:06 and stuff is usually like an AI indicator.

7:08 Like, yeah, but why would they do that?

7:10 Like what's? Well, again, is it about

7:12 portraying her a certain way? They wanted to show her as a

7:14 bubbly person, maybe is like fun, you know, maybe, I don't

7:18 know, not not really sure of the agenda or behind that.

7:21 But yeah, interesting, very interesting.

7:23 And then to not, I guess, acknowledge it like that, you

7:28 know, that they did do it is really unusual too.

7:31 Yeah. And they, they, they're waiting

7:33 behind it. I think the the director said

7:35 something along the lines of like our old documentaries, like

7:38 do Photoshop and stuff. It's like, well, I don't know if

7:40 they do. I mean, that's the whole point

7:41 of a documentary is that it's fact.

7:43 Fact. Like, I mean, it's why we we

7:45 watch those all the time over drama series and things like

7:49 that. Because you, you actually, yeah,

7:50 you expect that you're getting facts from it.

7:52 Absolutely. You wanna, you wanna know that

7:53 what you're watching is, you know, fairly true to to events.

7:57 Yeah. Yeah.

7:58 Anyway, let's get into the case. So Jennifer Pan was born on the

8:03 17th of June in 1986 to parents Han Pan and Big Har Pan.

8:10 They were of Chinese Vietnamese descent, and there were

8:14 immigrants into Canada. So this took place in Canada.

8:19 Yeah. Markham, ON.

8:20 Yeah. So out of Toronto, yeah. 20 KS

8:23 or so out of Toronto, yeah. And so Big Ha and Han actually

8:28 met in Canada. They were both refugees and had

8:33 met in Canada and very quickly, I think had a very quick

8:37 courtship and. I have a funny feeling they

8:39 actually didn't know each other back in Vietnam.

8:40 Oh, different. I don't know that.

8:42 Yeah, I don't know. There was some stuff I read

8:44 about. Potentially they may have met

8:45 prior. OK through.

8:47 It may be family connections or. Something right?

8:48 OK, but but anyway, they decided to get married and and start a

8:52 life together in Canada. Yeah.

8:55 And which they did. And then they had Jennifer.

8:57 And then three years later, they had a son named Felix.

9:01 He is not mentioned in the documentary at all on Netflix.

9:04 And there's a lot of reasons behind that, which will become

9:08 more and more evident as time goes on.

9:09 But he's he just doesn't want to be associated with any of this.

9:13 And I can completely understand why.

9:15 Yep. So this took place on Monday,

9:20 the 8th of November in 2010. Yes, there's a lot that leads up

9:24 to that date, but let's start there.

9:27 Yeah. And we'll go through the events

9:28 of the day, I think, and then we can sort of look, you know, go

9:31 backwards and go back and see exactly why that happened.

9:34 Yeah. So I guess the first, the first

9:37 bit is we hear this 911 call and I had to double check that

9:42 Canada's emergency number was 911.

9:44 But it is. But yeah, so we hear this 911

9:48 call of Jennifer contacting police because she's heard these

9:54 popping sounds and she's been tied up and she doesn't know

9:57 what's happened. And she can hear in the in that

9:59 911 call, which again, you can go and you can either listen to

10:01 that in the documentary or it's on Facebook, YouTube, Yeah, any

10:05 of those. It's on online.

10:07 Yeah, Google it. Yeah.

10:09 And you can hear her dad in the background like moaning, isn't

10:13 he? He's like, he's so that, that

10:15 sound is horrible. Yeah.

10:17 And he then runs out the front. Door.

10:21 Knowing Jennifer's in the house, which is also very curious.

10:24 Yes. But basically Jennifer's account

10:28 of the story is of, of what happened is that that night her

10:33 mum had gone line dancing. Yeah.

10:37 Good on Earth. Yeah.

10:38 Apparently she didn't. Picard didn't do a lot of things

10:42 for herself, but line dancing was like her One thing that she

10:45 absolutely loved. She loved music, loved dancing

10:47 and you know, every Monday. Night Joe when I hear of line

10:51 dancing. Married.

10:53 A long time. Ago.

10:55 Oh God, don't, don't get us started.

10:58 Now there's a tangent we could easily go down.

11:00 Yeah. And so she's gone out Monday

11:03 night. I think she left home at about

11:05 6:00-ish or 630. She's then home by about 9:00.

11:09 Prior to her going to line dancing, she cooked a meal.

11:12 She and Jennifer ate that meal. Han had actually been at work

11:16 that day. He was a machinist, a tool and

11:18 die maker. They.

11:19 Both worked at the same place, the two of.

11:21 Them well big car didn't work there anymore.

11:23 She'd actually been made redundant about two years before

11:27 this incident. But she had worked she had

11:29 worked in the same it was it for an automotive car part

11:32 manufacturer. Yeah, so they were very hard

11:37 working people. Han had been at work that day

11:40 and he'd come home. I think he was a little bit late

11:43 coming home because he on his way home he realised he'd like

11:46 not locked his toolbox or something.

11:47 So he's gone back to work, done that, and then on the way home

11:50 he's called his brother-in-law because he needed to go to

11:53 Bunnings or whatever the the Canadian version of Bunnings is

11:57 so hardware type store to pick something up.

12:00 And so he went with his brother-in-law there.

12:02 He's come home, eaten the meal that big car had left for him

12:06 because she'd already gone off to a line dancing class.

12:10 He ate his dinner, went to bed at about 8:30 because I think he

12:13 started work really early, like 5:30 in the morning or

12:16 something. So.

12:17 He'd go to bed earlier than usual, but yeah.

12:20 But yeah, 830 was in bed. Yeah, because I get home, I

12:23 think it was around 9 PM 9:30 PM from line dancing.

12:28 Jennifer hears her mum come home and goes downstairs.

12:31 This is Jennifer's account of what happened.

12:33 She goes downstairs to say goodnight to her mum and then

12:36 goes back upstairs to essentially go to bed.

12:43 Jennifer was on a phone, a phone call, then to an old school

12:47 friend. Yeah, I believe.

12:48 Yeah, yeah. So she'd been, she'd had a fair

12:51 bit of contact with friends throughout this night.

12:53 She'd had a one friend had come over during the night to watch

12:58 some shows that they'd recorded. So they watched.

13:01 Oh, God, Now I can't remember what they were.

13:04 There were shows that I was like, Oh yeah, I remember

13:06 watching those in 2010, but you know, sort of soapy type things.

13:10 And so they watched those and then the friend went home and

13:13 then Jennifer's had text message exchanges with one friend and

13:17 then she's had this phone conversation with another.

13:20 So at this point. Big sitting on the couch soaking

13:26 her feet after a big lot of line dancing.

13:30 Well, she's probably there for three hours.

13:31 That's a decent. God, yeah, no, yeah, decent.

13:33 Go at it. Yeah, yeah.

13:35 So, you know, sore feet, absolutely.

13:37 She's had a ball and had a great night, you know, enjoying her

13:40 thing, love it. But then at about 10:00, all of

13:45 a sudden in walks the through the front door with no knock, no

13:50 nothing. And BIC believed the front door

13:52 was locked. However, these people just

13:55 walked straight through and this is where the shit begins.

14:00 So they grab BIC and take her straight down.

14:03 There's three men take her straight down to the basement.

14:08 Han, who is in bed at this, as we said, he wakes up to a man

14:13 with a gun in his face telling him, where's the money?

14:16 Where's the money? He's, you know, absolutely, you

14:20 know. Working for, sorry.

14:22 He gets dragged down to the basement as well.

14:26 Apparently this is when, according to Jennifer, she hears

14:31 these, these, these voices that aren't her parents and sort of

14:35 opens her bedroom door and sort of a little bit to sort of check

14:37 what's going on. And she hears footsteps coming

14:40 up the, the, the stairwell. And as she opens the door,

14:45 there's a person there with a gun and who grabs her.

14:48 They grab her and then they tie her up to the banister and they

14:52 tie her hands together and then tie her to the banister.

14:55 So the way she describes it is they they tie her upper arm to

14:59 the banister. So she's got her hands behind

15:01 her back, behind her back, and then her upper arm is tied to

15:04 the banister. Yeah.

15:05 Meg, what did they use to tie your hands together in her arm

15:08 to the banister shoelaces? Uh huh.

15:11 OK, Yeah. Criminal masterminds, anyway.

15:16 So she's upstairs according to her, and so she has no idea

15:21 what's then going on. So there's then like 3 floors to

15:23 this house and that there's a the basement, which is a youth

15:26 space in this house, like a finished basement.

15:28 Yeah, they use it as a sitting room and things like that.

15:30 I think it's. Got ATV down there.

15:31 Yeah, Yep. So there.

15:33 But BIC and Han are down there. So all we get now is is

15:37 Jennifer's story of what she hears is 2 pops which she thinks

15:41 could be gunshots. She hears her mum's scream.

15:44 She then apparently hears two more pops and then and then she

15:48 hears them go out the front door and she thinks that they're gone

15:53 and she can't hear. She hears her dad moaning, I

15:55 think a little bit, but then nothing.

15:57 So then she reaches behind and she realizes that her phone is

16:00 in her back pocket, so with her hands tied.

16:03 Behind her waistband. Yeah, so in with her hands tied

16:06 behind her back and her tied to banister.

16:08 Somehow she gets this phone out and dials triple drop triple O

16:12 nine on one sorry, wrong country and so and so rings 911 and then

16:18 that's when we get that for that that that 91 call that you hear

16:21 of her very I mean it was it's pretty intense that 911 call of

16:26 her screaming sort of you know, someone's in our house and you

16:30 know that she. Has been shots.

16:31 There's been popping shots. She the the 911 operator says

16:38 like is asking her for her address and asking her what

16:40 happens. She sounds like a little girl in

16:41 the in the. Because we haven't mentioned, I

16:43 guess we have in terms of her age, but I don't know people put

16:46 together that at this point in 2010, she was 24 years of age 4.

16:50 Yeah, she sounds like a little girl.

16:52 She's terrified. And, you know, given the events

16:55 that have unfolded, understandably, I mean, some

16:58 intruders have come into your house.

17:00 You can hear shooting sounds. They've been demanding and

17:03 yelling about money. And, yeah, she would be

17:07 terrified. So again, go and have a look,

17:10 either Netflix documentary or even better, on YouTube.

17:14 You can see just this clip of the video.

17:16 Yeah. But in when she's interviewed by

17:18 police following this event, she demonstrates how she got her

17:22 phone out of her waistband and made the call despite the fact

17:25 that she was tied up because she was saying she was tied up

17:28 really tight. So she couldn't get out of it.

17:30 Yeah, but she was able to get her phone out of her waistband,

17:34 put it to her side and like flip, flip it open because of

17:39 the old fashioned flip phone and dial 911 and then speak to the

17:43 operator. Now, there was no speakerphone

17:45 on the phones at the time. That's what I kept.

17:47 I was like, she was Google searching, like could you just

17:49 put on speaker at that point? And there was no speakerphone,

17:51 No SO. So she what she says is she

17:53 turned the volume up all the way and she was yelling at the phone

17:57 now. I immediately like that doesn't

18:00 ring when you hear that voice that that 911 call, it sounds

18:03 like it's very clear, very like she's very clear.

18:06 I mean, I've, I've heard plenty of other 91 calls where someone

18:09 is got the phone here, which you don't get as Leah.

18:13 Yeah, as what you got from her. That.

18:14 Yeah. So it's not like to me, she's

18:17 not twisting around and yelling down at the phone like it's her

18:20 voice is very clear. But anyway, this is her account.

18:22 Yeah. And the 911 operator says to

18:26 her, you know, what's your address?

18:27 And she's not forthcoming in that like as in she stumbles

18:31 around the question, which I get.

18:33 You can kind of understand that in in some sense of like a

18:37 traumatic event. She has said it.

18:39 But then I wanna call 911. Operator couldn't really make it

18:42 out. Yeah, yeah.

18:43 Which I mean, I can get it. You think you've said it, but

18:45 they haven't understood it. So I kind of again I kind of can

18:48 come at that the. Trauma or?

18:49 She does skip strip. She'll stumble over it a lot.

18:51 Like kind of thing that you're kind of like, well.

18:53 And then eventually the 911 operators like spell it for me,

18:56 Yeah. And she does anyway.

18:58 They dispatch police immediately.

19:01 Yeah. And the 911 operator stays on

19:03 the line with her until the police are there.

19:05 So you can hear the police in the 911 call, you can hear the

19:08 police entering the property. You can hear the police officer

19:14 coming upstairs and obviously doing a sweep of the house to

19:16 ensure that the intruders aren't there.

19:17 There weren't anymore. She was, she sort of said to

19:19 them, even as they kept the stairs.

19:20 I don't know if they're still here or not.

19:21 Yeah. So yes, they've got to check

19:23 everything. So obviously, you know, if I

19:26 guess in, if this was legit in terms of things, but she, you

19:28 know, that would be pretty intense as a victim that you're

19:31 tied to a banister and finally someone comes to arrive and you

19:34 think you're gonna get free. But they don't, they leave her

19:36 there, which they have to because they need to make sure

19:39 that yeah, everyone else, everyone is safe before they, I

19:41 mean, she is safe at that point, you know, like even though,

19:44 yeah, of course you want to get out of that situation.

19:46 But yeah, they have to leave her there while they check all the

19:49 brooms and things and then also check how she's tied.

19:54 That's part of just, you know, protocol to then how they're

19:57 going to untie her safely or what have you.

19:59 So yeah, they've done that properly.

20:02 I should say before they walked in, the police obviously into

20:05 the house they found outside was Han Penn, passed out on sort of

20:12 the nature strip, I guess, sort of out the front and the lawn

20:14 there. So he's been shot, I think in

20:18 the face, in the face and in the shoulder.

20:20 In the shoulder as well. It's two shots.

20:21 He'd been, he'd been, he'd copped one of them particularly

20:25 right through the corner of his eye.

20:26 Yeah. So he, how he got up and got to

20:29 there is pretty full on. And how they can't believe.

20:32 It like the adrenaline must have been pumping.

20:34 So he's actually climbed the stairs from the basement to the

20:36 ground level of the house. Yeah.

20:38 And run out the front door. Yeah, I think in some ways.

20:41 Luckily a neighbour was actually leaving for work at the time and

20:45 intercepted Han and could already hear the sirens.

20:49 So new, new help was on its way. Yes, and so he stayed with Han

20:54 until the police got there. And obviously the police had to

20:56 do a sweep before they could even attend to Han by the time.

21:01 So the police tried. So they've gone down into the

21:03 basement, found Big Ha and knew immediately that she was

21:08 deceased. They did try to perform CPR on

21:10 her just, you know, as a life saving measure just to try.

21:15 And once the ambulance, the paramedics got there, they

21:20 basically knew that yeah, she was gone then.

21:23 She'd been shot in the back and on in the back of the head.

21:26 Yeah, yeah. So just absolutely horrific.

21:31 Han. Yeah, as you said, was had

21:33 passed out by this stage. Out the front upstairs, the

21:38 police officer who'd found Jennifer decided, I mean,

21:42 obviously had done had had a bit of a check of her and everything

21:45 and found some scissors in her bedroom and cut her free using

21:50 the scissors. Mm.

21:51 Hmm. Trying not to, you know, just

21:53 disturb. Yeah.

21:54 Just too much of the crime scene.

21:56 Yeah. Obviously wanted to free her in

21:58 the same token. So anyway, was able to cut her

22:00 free in that way and took her out the front immediately where

22:04 she saw her dad on a Gurney ready to go into the ambulance.

22:09 And then they've taken Jennifer to an await another awaiting

22:13 ambulance so that she could receive any medical attention

22:16 that she would need. She didn't need any aside from,

22:20 you know, she was treated for shock at the scene.

22:21 And they took her to the hospital to give her a once

22:23 over. They didn't know at this point

22:25 whether she'd been raped or harmed in any way.

22:28 And so, you know, they were doing their due diligence by

22:32 ensuring that medically she was OK after this horrific incident.

22:37 Yeah. So they were taken separate

22:39 ambulances to the local hospital.

22:42 And at this stage, Hahn is in a really, really critical

22:48 condition. Yeah.

22:49 The bullet missed his carotid artery by literally millimeters.

22:54 And it came through the corner of his eye and then down through

22:56 his throat. Exactly.

22:57 But it was the angle, it was like slightly angled away from

23:01 his neck. So it was like angled out

23:03 towards the outer side of his body.

23:05 If it had been angled slightly more inward, he wouldn't have

23:07 survived. No.

23:09 Just incredible. Yeah.

23:11 To this day, he's still got bullet fragments in his and.

23:14 You can't see out that eye. No, no.

23:16 Oh, he's not lost all vision of that eye.

23:17 Yeah. So there's obviously some yeah,

23:20 ongoing, absolutely ongoing physical trauma, let alone the

23:24 mental trauma. I mean, I guess so, man, Still

23:26 at that point, like, they didn't even know if he'd still, you

23:29 know, survive. Yeah.

23:30 I mean, there was still a long way to go though.

23:32 So in the hospital, I think family members arrived as well.

23:36 And Jennifer was with him in the hospital.

23:39 And at one point, Jennifer realized that her phone battery

23:42 had died and she even asked. So she asked one of the her

23:45 uncle, I think it was. She said, oh, my phone battery's

23:48 dying. I want to.

23:49 That actually happened when Han when Han came to the.

23:55 The money of, I thought. No, no, it happened on the on

23:59 the date because they've they've then traced that that was part

24:02 of the prosecution's case. Yeah, because they then were

24:05 able to see that she phoned her ex-boyfriend.

24:08 We're getting Daniel Wong and they know it was now.

24:12 To tell her because on the night it was on that night because she

24:14 rang him and said he's going to leave, which they didn't know.

24:19 Yeah, no, I'm sure that happened when he woke up because at that,

24:23 on the night that it happened, he did not know.

24:27 They didn't know. They thought he was going to

24:28 die. No, that's right.

24:29 That's critical. I'm sure there's part of the

24:31 interview with her that comes up and she said, oh, I was ringing

24:35 him to tell him that that my dad was going to leave, right.

24:38 And it was like, well, hang on a minute, because you don't didn't

24:40 know he was going to leave. Yes.

24:41 So why would she ring to say that?

24:43 Yeah, that's and that was part of the another question mark

24:46 like that made them, I don't know.

24:48 OK, don't know. All right, we'll have to look at

24:50 that. We'll double check that, Yeah.

24:52 But at some point she's called Daniel to say that he's.

24:55 Yeah, yeah, we'll get we'll. Get to Daniel.

24:57 It's not crucial, No. By any means, no, But yeah.

25:00 So I think 3 hours after all of this, the police take her down

25:04 to the police station to do an initial statement, which again,

25:09 at this point, it's it's just protocol that, you know, she is

25:11 the only witness they have to this to then be able to follow

25:13 through and find who these these people are that have come into a

25:16 house. Yeah.

25:17 And do this. They've got to interview her,

25:19 which they are. I mean, look, that is completely

25:22 intense. And police are very aware.

25:23 And I have to say, I think they did an incredible job of

25:27 supporting a victim of crime. They have these these particular

25:32 people who get assigned to a victim like this that support

25:34 them as well as, you know, those who have got to do their job and

25:37 interview because you don't know who's involved in anything and

25:40 these sorts of things at this point.

25:41 Yeah. Because as we should say to

25:44 where this occurred, I mean, crime was very low.

25:47 Yeah. This was really unusual for it

25:50 to have happened. A home invasion of any sort was

25:54 non existent in that in that neighbourhood.

25:57 So immediately, even when the media got hold of this, it was a

26:00 big story because they're like, who on earth would have done

26:03 this? You know, because people don't

26:05 have home invasions in that area.

26:07 And so it was like, well, if this wasn't related to the

26:09 family, just a random incident like that's scary for this

26:14 neighbourhood particularly. I think that's.

26:16 Something they used. To They were looking to see

26:18 whether the family had connections to drugs or like

26:20 gangs or, you know, something to motivate a crime like this, but

26:25 there was nothing. Well, very early on, one of the

26:28 neighbours when they started talking to other witnesses

26:29 trying to, you know, what did you hear over the night?

26:31 And neighbours said like, well, Jennifer's ex-boyfriend was is

26:36 has drug relations. So that came up quite early.

26:39 So they were aware of that. And I don't, I don't think at

26:41 that first interview they were aware of that, no.

26:43 But. That's why they brought her back

26:45 for the second interview. So the first interview took

26:49 place at 1. So she was sorry.

26:51 Jennifer was discharged from the hospital at 1:30 in the morning

26:54 and taken straight to the police station for interview.

26:57 The interview started at 2:45 AM and finished at 4:30 AM.

27:02 It's. Pretty lengthy, like I mean I

27:04 couldn't watch slow for her I guess.

27:05 Yeah, but to think of what she'd been through, so, you know, a

27:09 couple of hours worth of like quite intense questioning and

27:13 they were just trying to establish a timeline of

27:15 basically what had happened. Yeah.

27:16 Whether Jennifer knew anything, whether there were any leads

27:19 that they could potentially follow up because as you said,

27:21 they. This is.

27:21 This was just so seemingly so random and.

27:26 But very early on, the police were questioning things.

27:29 There was So actually those are two different camps basically

27:31 between the cops. There were those that were, you

27:33 know, absolutely like all these poor victim here like and then

27:36 but there were certain cops going.

27:38 I think she's in on it. Yeah.

27:40 Because to have AI mean you've gone and I mean people to enter

27:43 house and murder or attempt an attempt to murder two people.

27:46 Why would you leave a witness who can who saw you that that

27:50 was their biggest, I guess red flag.

27:53 Yeah, but at the same time, like, this was incredibly

27:57 intense and you can't treat her immediately as like, you know,

27:59 you're you're a bad person and like, they've got to tread

28:02 carefully because in case this is just completely random.

28:05 Yeah, that's it. In her interview, she did give

28:07 descriptions of three men who came into her house.

28:11 So they basically labeled them man one man 2, Man 3 because

28:14 they don't have any names for these people yet.

28:16 And she was able to give a description of each, each man

28:19 that she saw and that she that she definitely heard certain

28:23 them talk. That one had a Jamaican accent,

28:25 one had dreadlocks, all these sorts of bits of information.

28:30 The interview itself, I mean, it's all over online.

28:32 Like you very easily access access to it.

28:34 It's very, it's worth having a check out because her demeanor

28:38 immediately to me raised quite a few red flags.

28:41 The first one being that she there's a box of tissues on that

28:46 table now. I can only imagine how I would

28:52 be feeling. I've just had my mother

28:53 murdered, my dad's in hospital and quite possibly could die.

28:59 How you would be feeling right then would be full on.

29:03 I'm sorry. That table would be full of wet,

29:05 gross, disgusting snot tissues. Oh, absolutely.

29:09 But then I guess the other thing is just putting, you know,

29:13 putting aside what we know. Mm hmm.

29:15 You don't know how you would act, you would behave in a

29:17 trauma like this. You can't.

29:18 She'd be exhausted. It's, you know, but yeah, two

29:20 o'clock 3:00 in the morning. Yeah, you'd be in shock.

29:23 Absolutely be in shock. And you don't know how you would

29:26 react. Although even when because

29:29 apparently when she was awaiting to go into the ambulance back at

29:34 home, she said to the police officer, what happened to my

29:37 mum? And the police officer said I'm

29:39 I'm sorry to inform you she's deceased.

29:42 Jennifer just went. It was like it was like, OK,

29:48 again, how you would process that I don't know.

29:52 The shock of that would be so intense and you would almost

29:55 feel like you're not living in reality, would you?

29:59 God, yeah. But another layer of this, I

30:01 guess we probably should say is that both you and I are white

30:05 Australian cultural, cultural background.

30:07 We don't have great insight here into another culture that we're

30:11 looking at here in terms of their family being Chinese slash

30:14 Vietnamese background. Different cultures raise

30:16 children differently. And I know that from only

30:19 Speaking of like from friends experiences or being raised in

30:22 households like that where that emotion isn't really allowed and

30:26 that they were it's. Not like a it's a cultural

30:28 thing, isn't? It can be a cultural thing that

30:30 you know, you, that you don't cry.

30:31 Yep, and things like that. So I, I think we've got to also.

30:35 Put that lens. On that lens on it as well that

30:36 we're talking from a different cultural background as well.

30:39 And I don't want to pre, I don't want to say that's, that is a

30:42 very generalized statement. That doesn't mean that every

30:44 Asian household's that way either.

30:46 So, but that has to be taken into account from the the

30:49 police's, the police side of things of like when they, they

30:52 don't, they can't judge someone's reaction as you're

30:54 saying. And and nor should they, I mean

30:57 the police there together to gather facts.

30:59 I mean, obviously people's demeanor plays into an overall

31:03 picture. But I think the detective on

31:05 this particular night, at the first interview, he was really

31:08 good in, in sort of taking everything in.

31:12 Yeah. And when he's interviewed in the

31:13 documentary, you're like, OK, he he he got it from the get go.

31:16 Yeah. But I think, I think with the

31:18 tissues where I was going was like, she would wipe her like

31:21 she would cry. Yeah, like, but the tissue will

31:24 come back dry. Cry.

31:25 She put her hands put. Her hands down, as if she was

31:27 crying. Yeah.

31:28 But then the tissue would come back dry.

31:30 Yeah. So that's what I was kind of

31:31 like. And so that was the difference

31:32 between like, you know, like, yeah, like, OK, I don't cry

31:34 because, like, whatever reason, like, how you've been raised or

31:36 something. But then there's fake crying.

31:39 Yeah, it's performed. She thought that's what she

31:41 should be doing and how she should be feeling.

31:43 So this is the way I'm going to portray myself.

31:46 Yeah. So Felix, Jennifer's brother, he

31:50 was about 30 minutes away at college at the time.

31:52 So he was not living in the house.

31:54 He was living away at college, but it wasn't very far away.

31:56 Yeah. So the police actually brought

31:58 him in for an interview around the same time as Jennifer.

32:01 Yep. And I mean, he didn't really

32:04 have a huge amount to add to it. Well, he had no idea of what had

32:08 happened that night, but he did start to paint the picture in

32:11 his interview of what their parents were like and what their

32:15 family dynamic was like. So that, again, helped, as you

32:18 were saying before, helped kind of put together a bit of a

32:21 picture about what this family dynamic was.

32:24 And, you know, one of the things that he said is their dad was

32:27 really quite strict and very, like, very difficult to live

32:31 with. He had very high expectations of

32:33 them. Yeah.

32:34 He basically expected them to be, you know, the best in their

32:40 class academically. He wanted them to be musical and

32:42 play instruments. They were only able to do

32:46 extracurricular activities that he deemed sort of noble.

32:50 You know, they weren't able to necessarily just go off and, you

32:53 know, tool around on a basketball court after school.

32:55 They had to be doing something productive with their time.

32:58 The pressure of that must have been horrendous.

33:00 Yeah. Jennifer, when she was younger

33:03 was a figure skater, and she ended up having to pull out of

33:07 that because she injured her knee really badly, Yeah.

33:10 She was on track. Basically we looked at for.

33:12 Olympics. Exactly.

33:14 In primary school she was training until like 10:00 at

33:19 night, coming home and doing not homework assigned by the school

33:22 but homework assigned by her parents till midnight, till

33:25 midnight or whatever and then getting up and going to school

33:28 the next day. Like, they pushed their kids so

33:31 hard. Han has been interviewed about

33:35 this. Yeah.

33:35 And I mean, not that he's had a huge amount to say in the public

33:40 arena, but I believe this was actually formed part of his

33:42 testimony at trial as well. But there, there has also been

33:46 an interview where he basically stated that they put everything

33:50 they had into these children financially.

33:53 Well, not emotionally. That wasn't the word he used

33:56 like physically. So they, they took, they drove

33:58 them everywhere they needed to go.

33:59 They, they put everything they could into these kids to at

34:04 their own sacrifice. So they hadn't gone back to

34:07 Vietnam to visit family because they were putting all of their

34:10 money into getting a better home in a better area for the kids,

34:13 ensuring that they could pay for the top education and, like,

34:18 giving them all these extra, extra tutors for different

34:22 things and the best piano teachers and whatever.

34:25 Yeah. So it's building a picture of

34:29 very, very high expectations. This is gonna sound really

34:33 dirty, but I was looking at Reddit in relation to this case

34:38 because I am curious to see different opinions that people

34:41 have. And sometimes if you just look

34:43 at the comments on like the Netflix documentary or

34:45 something, you're not really getting a whole scope of what

34:48 people think. Reddit, Reddit is great for

34:50 that. That's great.

34:50 You've got to filter through a fair bit of stuff.

34:52 But people were saying on there that, you know, the expectations

34:59 that the parents had didn't match necessarily their back the

35:05 parents background. So as in oh.

35:07 Right. The parents were blue collar

35:09 workers, yes, and they expected their children to achieve

35:12 academically incredibly like a lot higher than they ever had.

35:17 So the reason for that is this, this whole idea of like the

35:19 Chinese, Vietnamese background and I, I sort of am bucketing

35:22 them together in that I don't want to generalize, but in

35:25 similarities. We're talking about it, yeah.

35:27 But they've, I mean, they've got connections to both culturally,

35:30 but also Vietnam and China have a lot of cultural similarities.

35:34 But the basic reason for that is that in their culture, education

35:39 is you're out and basically that's the only way you can

35:45 improve your socioeconomic status is through education.

35:49 So that's why education has such a high emphasis in the culture.

35:53 So you can be the, you know, lowly worker, but if you can, if

35:58 you can make your child, if you can provide them education, that

36:02 will improve your socio economic status.

36:03 And so in Vietnam, in China, you can find a lot of like

36:07 politicians, etcetera, medical people that have backgrounds of

36:11 very poor families. OK, I, I, I get that.

36:14 Yeah. But it's, it's interesting to me

36:19 that they had that opinion and yet they had, in blue collar

36:23 jobs, worked their way into having a home that they owned

36:28 outright. There's no mortgage left on that

36:30 home. At the time of the murders.

36:32 They had worked, they, one of them owned a Mercedes, the other

36:35 one owned a Lexus. They had $200,000 worth of cash

36:40 in their bank accounts. They had sent their kids well

36:43 thought, they'd sent their kids to university and were able to

36:46 assist in their tuition payments.

36:48 The kids still had student loans, but it was nothing

36:51 compared to other kids because their parents were able to

36:53 assist in contributions for that.

36:56 So they to me, they're an absolute success story on the

37:01 back of a blue collar job and yet they didn't see it like

37:05 that. They've wanted their kids to be,

37:07 they wanted Jennifer to be a doctor, but she says that she

37:11 like it was too gruesome for her.

37:12 She doesn't like to decide her. Dad didn't acknowledge that and

37:14 goes, oh, you weren't going to stomach it.

37:15 So that's when. He so he decided that she she

37:18 could do pharmacy instead. And I believe Felix studied

37:23 engineering. Yes, yeah, yeah.

37:26 So her brother, you know. So he was at university at this

37:28 time studying engineering at a very prestigious university too.

37:31 I don't know the name of it, but was quite a well thought of

37:34 university he was at. Yeah.

37:37 But like generally speaking, like because we're putting like

37:38 quite AI guess a westernized look on this lens on like what

37:44 this would be termed tiger parenting in some ways, yeah.

37:48 Or authoritarian parenting. That's different names again in

37:51 it, but they definitely overlap somewhat that we would feel

37:56 awful at the idea of our child being feeling stress.

38:00 You know, if we were putting on pressure on our child that that

38:02 idea of like our child feeling stressed would be that would be

38:05 like, Oh my God, I'm not doing a good job because my child's

38:07 stressed. Whereas potentially in that kind

38:10 of style of to parenting culturally, your child feeling

38:14 stressed is actually a sign of you doing a excellent excellent

38:18 job as a parent. Yeah, because they're striving.

38:21 They're they're working really hard.

38:22 They're doing what they should be doing to get to achieve what

38:25 they need to achieve. Absolutely.

38:27 I mean, there's like elements of tiger parenting that I 100% go,

38:30 OK, I really like that idea, right.

38:33 But it's when I put like a westernized spin on it, I guess.

38:36 But yeah, the idea of like that they, they believe that if it

38:41 should be, should be given more. What am I trying to say?

38:45 Like more the effort is, is more important than the actual

38:48 result. In some ways.

38:51 I say, I read that as like, Oh yeah, like you praise the

38:54 effort. And I do this with my own

38:56 children. I praise effort over the result.

38:58 You can fail it like at the end of it, but you put in all the

39:00 hard work. Therefore you haven't failed

39:02 because you've learnt a new task.

39:03 All right. Whereas they see it as no, no,

39:06 you, you, everyone, in their minds, everyone can do anything

39:10 as long as you work hard enough at it, right?

39:14 There's no like innate strength someone has.

39:17 No, no, you do. You can do everything and

39:20 anything as long as you work hard enough at it.

39:23 So. And that that is exactly the

39:26 environment that they've raised their children in.

39:28 Like, they had no extracurricular.

39:30 Yeah. Activity.

39:31 It's like they were constantly striving for the best.

39:33 Yeah. Everything they did was to try

39:37 and achieve that. Yes.

39:39 So regardless of the fact of, you know, that.

39:40 OK, yeah, medicine isn't your thing.

39:42 You don't like medicine. No, no, no.

39:44 You work hard enough, you can do it.

39:46 Yeah. So there's no like, oh, you

39:47 don't have a passion for that or let's look at something else.

39:50 Whereas like, I'm more of the idea of, you know, OK, you find

39:53 something that you're passionate about, you don't work a day, a

39:54 day in your life, right. You know, you work hard at doing

39:57 that because you love doing. It doesn't feel like it's hard

39:59 work. Their idea is if you're not

40:01 working hard, then you're not achieving.

40:02 Yeah. The only way you're achieving is

40:04 by working hard. Yeah.

40:05 So there's actually a, a grading system that I've heard a friend

40:08 of mine talk about this in her household around like Tiger

40:11 parenting and she's Vietnamese as well.

40:13 And she said that basically A equals average.

40:17 Right in the grading, B equals bad, C equals catastrophe, D

40:21 equals disowned, F equals forgotten.

40:24 Oh my God. So yeah, so even when you're

40:27 achieving as high as you possibly can of an A grade,

40:30 you're still not good enough because you've got to work

40:32 harder. So I think that's what even Han

40:35 said this in one of his statements, that he wanted them

40:38 to be the best. It wasn't good enough to be in

40:41 to get A's and and whatever they had to be #1 and so much so they

40:46 were actually quite disappointed that Jennifer didn't finish top

40:50 of her class one year, like as valedictorian of her class.

40:55 And this is kind of where things started to unravel for Jennifer.

41:00 But they were really disappointed that she hadn't

41:02 finished top of her class and someone else had achieved that.

41:04 And I think, and yet unfortunately, I think teachers

41:06 had almost indicated to her that she was going to receive that,

41:10 whatever that I call it, I think I'll.

41:12 Call it that, but it's not. Yeah, sorry.

41:15 So different countries call it different things.

41:17 But yeah, I think it was alluded to her that she would be

41:21 receiving that award at the end of elementary school and she

41:24 didn't get it, which so that kind of triggered what what

41:28 school life then became. Absolutely.

41:30 So, yeah. So she had gone from being a

41:32 really clever high achieving. Yeah, she was getting A's and A

41:36 classes. In primary school to moving on

41:39 to high school where things, I guess you know, there's a big

41:42 jump between primary and high school different the way you

41:44 know, even the way classes are structured and, and the content

41:47 and you are then by the time you get to high school, we all know,

41:50 we've all been there. You're working towards

41:52 potentially like further study or a career or whatever.

41:55 So. But also hormones kick in so.

41:58 Yeah. I mean, it's a very complicated

42:00 time of life, isn't it? But Jennifer's basically gone

42:04 from being this A+ sort of student in primary school or in

42:07 elementary school to then sort of being AB or C average

42:11 student. And apparently she like was not

42:13 getting that valedictorian basically had this attitude of

42:15 like, why try? Why even bother?

42:17 Why bother? I'm, you know, yeah.

42:19 So what did she do to make sure that her parents believed she

42:22 was still doing the AS&A Pluses. She started forging her report

42:27 cards at the age of 14. Mm Hmm.

42:29 So that her parents believed she was getting the As and was

42:33 incredibly intelligent. She was averaging AC at the

42:35 time. Yeah, but I don't know.

42:37 I'm trying to work out in in 2000 and whatever year that

42:40 would have been. Well, well, early mid 2002

42:43 thousand and five. Yeah, yeah.

42:44 Sort of stuff she was able to use Photoshop skills to be able

42:49 to turn AC into an AI mean wouldn't you go AB?

42:51 Like wouldn't that be easy to shake?

42:52 But she. Wouldn't have been able to go

42:54 home with. AB that would have.

42:55 Been not have been good enough. So she's but the effort that

42:58 would have gone into making it doing that, I think why don't

43:01 you go into some sort of field of like, I don't know.

43:03 Graphic design, yeah, or something.

43:06 Playdious strength, clearly good here.

43:09 Yeah. She forged so many documents

43:11 over the the coming years. Yeah, she forged.

43:14 So she's gone through high school.

43:17 She actually never officially graduated from high school

43:20 because she failed her final year calculus exam.

43:24 And so she was one credit off actually graduating from high

43:28 school. Prior to that, though, she had

43:31 actually received an early entry offer into Ryerson University.

43:37 I think just studying a general science degree was it.

43:41 I can't remember I. Just I think it was, I think it

43:43 was just a general science degree.

43:44 Her parents were happy with that.

43:46 So they obviously they wanted her to study pharmacy at the

43:48 University of Toronto. That was their dream for her.

43:51 Yeah. But the fact that she got early

43:53 entry into RYESS and Uni, they were actually, I think they were

43:58 proud. I think I already knew she

44:00 wasn't didn't get the mark. She wasn't gonna get the marks

44:01 to get in immediately to pharmaceutical studies at

44:06 Toronto University. I think I already were aware

44:09 that that's not where she was. Even though she was getting

44:11 well, they thought she was getting all A's.

44:13 I think so. I think it wasn't still good

44:15 enough to get her into that. So I think she's already had to

44:18 tell them that I haven't. I'm not going to get into there.

44:21 But if I do a couple years at Rice and doing this, then I can

44:23 transfer across. She'd already, like, figured it

44:26 out, figured it out of what she was going to.

44:28 Do and I guess you know image wise, which I know plays a part

44:32 in this as well. Her parents were able to say

44:34 well she gained early entry they want and they she I think she

44:38 originally was offered a $3000 scholarship, so some money she.

44:42 Told them that. Yeah, some money towards it.

44:45 Well she was definitely 100%. She was originally offered early

44:48 entry. I think The $3000 scholarship

44:51 has never been either proven or disproven.

44:54 Nobody really knows because Ryerson actually withdrew their

44:58 offer when they found out she didn't graduate from high.

45:00 School, you have to have your high.

45:01 School. High school certificate?

45:02 Absolutely. Yep.

45:04 Yep. So she still went.

45:08 So her parents believe she'd graduated from high school.

45:11 Yeah. With really great Marks and that

45:14 she was going in to Ryerson University to study science for

45:18 a few years as a an alternate pathway, I guess, into pharmacy.

45:22 Yeah. She buys all the textbooks she

45:26 attends. Well, she tells them she's

45:28 attending the orientation week for the university.

45:31 They drive her there. Yeah.

45:32 And drop her there. Yeah, but she doesn't have a

45:35 place. So during this time, so this was

45:38 two years of her life that she was doing this, She was doing

45:46 lots of different things, but not actually attending

45:48 university. I think now is a good time to

45:50 introduce Mr. Wong into. The picture, yeah, that's a good

45:54 idea, yeah. So when Jennifer was in high

45:57 school, she was part of a music program and they went over to

46:00 Europe for some. What was that for?

46:02 Do you might remember it? Was like for some concert.

46:05 Or seeing the yeah. Yeah, and on that trip, she met

46:09 a boy named. Daniel Wong.

46:12 Thank you. I was just about to call him

46:13 Eddie, but that's another guy. That's another character in this

46:16 story. Yeah, Daniel Wong and he they

46:19 hit it off straight away. I think she.

46:21 Had a, she had an asthma attack because on this trip people were

46:24 smoking in Europe. It's was far more, you know,

46:27 considered fine over there more so than back home.

46:30 So a lot of the kids were picking up sort of a bit of

46:31 smoking over there and stuff when their travels.

46:33 And she apparently had got quite a nasty, like, asthma attack.

46:37 And Daniel was apparently fantastic and really got and got

46:40 her away from it, calmed her down, you know, got her over

46:42 these asthma attacks. So they just sort of bonded over

46:44 that immediately and really connected.

46:47 Yeah. So she, I think she could have

46:48 fell from him pretty, pretty quick.

46:50 And he was a year older than her.

46:51 Yes, eight-year older. Yeah, yeah.

46:53 They didn't start dating immediately.

46:55 They would became just good friends for a long time.

46:57 But as soon after them getting back from that trip, I believe

47:00 they started. After the trip, yeah, they

47:02 started dating, but Jennifer wasn't allowed to date.

47:06 She I think she was 16 at this time when they when they sort of

47:10 started dating. Well, it.

47:12 Could have even been early, actually, no, it would have been

47:14 more like 14. OK.

47:15 She must have been pretty, pretty young at that point.

47:17 Which? When they first met, yeah.

47:19 Yeah, they were having to sort of go behind Jennifer's parents

47:26 backs and, you know, sneak around, but.

47:29 So this is during high school time, but by the time Jennifer

47:34 doesn't graduate from high school and moves on to.

47:36 Not Ryerson, Danny was actually working at a pizza place at the

47:43 time and as a manager or something.

47:46 Yeah. Boston Pizza and he got her a

47:50 job there. So some of them eventually got a

47:52 job there. Yeah.

47:52 Yeah, eventually she. So during the day, she'd either

47:55 go and sit in a cafe and have A at lunch, she'd go to the

47:59 university library and just sit and tool around and use the

48:02 Internet there. She would take lunch to Danny on

48:06 his lunch breaks before she got a job there.

48:10 Not really a productive use of her time.

48:12 She would. So she was earning a bit of

48:14 money that her parents didn't know about by working at this

48:16 Boston Pizza. She also was teaching piano to

48:19 like, family friends. So she did have a, you know, a

48:23 pretty modest income. So she had a little bit of money

48:28 at her disposal. But you know, her parents were

48:31 also supporting her in that they were giving her money for for

48:35 different bits and pieces for. Thinking she was a uni student.

48:38 University, yeah, that's it. Like, you know, 40 or 50 bucks.

48:42 Yeah. I need to be able to buy lunch

48:43 today or whatever. Yeah.

48:45 Yeah. So she kept this ruse going and

48:49 going. Yeah.

48:50 And going. So in that time frame too, Danny

48:53 at one stage was put over by police for he was, what he was

48:58 doing was selling marijuana. He was found with I think about

49:01 half a pound of marijuana in his car.

49:04 He did do a little bit of time I think, or he was offence.

49:06 To sort of probation. Probation.

49:08 Yeah, yeah. Then he actually went to.

49:10 Jail. No, but yeah, did.

49:11 He was arrested for it and everything.

49:13 So he was known to police in some form and more sort of in

49:18 that scene, a little bit of, you know, buying drugs and selling

49:22 drugs, et cetera. But obviously with what I mean,

49:25 Jennifer said was that because, you know, this asthma attack

49:27 kind of thing that she had with smoking and things he said to

49:29 her, you stay well away from it. She wasn't involved in it, but

49:32 still, I mean, not great. When when she was interviewed

49:36 about this in her, I believe this was her second police

49:39 interview. Yeah, I, I just, it really made

49:43 me take note because the the detective says to her, do you

49:49 like, were you involved with the drugs?

49:50 And she's like, absolutely not. I had nothing to do with it.

49:54 I, she was so resolute in what she was saying.

49:56 Yeah. And then, you know, a few

49:58 minutes later in the interview, they say something about, well,

50:00 did you have any involvement in, in the death of your mother?

50:03 Yeah. And she's like, and she kind of

50:04 is like, you know, and she really skirts around it.

50:09 So I believe that she had no involvement in the drug side of

50:12 things with Danny. But obviously we've come to

50:15 learn something else. It was like it was such a

50:17 juxtaposition between her reaction of when she absolutely

50:21 hadn't done something to when when she hadn't.

50:24 When she's such a good liar, Yeah, like, because, I mean,

50:27 she's lied, like, for a number of years.

50:28 By the time she's in this interview room about this

50:31 incident, she's been lying consistently for 10 years about

50:35 her entire life. And not only to her parents, it

50:38 comes out that she's been lying to Danny.

50:40 She's lied to friends, family. Yeah, nobody really knows the

50:44 truth of her life aside from her.

50:47 But I also, I also truly, truly believe that there were lies

50:51 that she told so many times that she believed them herself.

50:54 Yeah, yeah. There's got to be a level of

50:56 that. Yeah, yeah.

50:58 Which we can talk about. I've got a a little bit of

51:00 influence on what we maybe think of diagnosis of things.

51:03 Yeah, we can. Maybe we'll get to that more

51:05 towards the end. Yeah, yeah.

51:06 So we're basically now at the point where Jennifer's at

51:10 university, not at university at Ryerson, and it's time for her

51:14 to kind of then move on to the University of Toronto to study

51:20 pharmacology and the web of lies.

51:23 Just continues. Continues Yeah.

51:26 Yeah. And at one stage she

51:27 volunteered. Well, she said told her parents

51:29 she was volunteering at a hospital doing like blood draws

51:33 and things like that or something.

51:34 Yeah, flaws me that even that someone would volunteer and do

51:37 that. Like you could actually

51:38 volunteer and actually get that role.

51:39 But anyway, yeah. But her parents that are

51:41 cottoning on to this fact that this, well, the dad was like,

51:46 well, hang on a second. To do something like that in a

51:48 hospital, you need to have, you know, badges and stuff to swipe

51:51 in and swipe out. You need scrubs or something,

51:53 something. Yeah.

51:54 And she didn't have any of that stuff because she was still

51:56 living at home. There was none of that stuff

51:57 being seen. And so he questioned this.

52:00 And so he drove. They drove her to work one day

52:02 to drop her off, which they did multiple times.

52:05 But on this particular day, he said BIC, you get out of the car

52:07 and you follow her in and watch her go in, to which then she's

52:11 bolted into the hospital and hidden for hours in three the

52:15 hospital. Three hours in the emergency

52:17 department. She hid.

52:18 Oh. God, you know, just to avoid

52:20 this sort of situation. But the questions started coming

52:23 then at her of like what was going?

52:24 That was sort of her downfall. She did have to.

52:26 She did at that point fess up that, yeah, she wasn't attending

52:30 university. She wasn't didn't have that job,

52:32 you know, So they did find out at that point.

52:35 That she wasn't attending the University of Toronto.

52:37 They still, at that point, believed she'd attended Rice.

52:39 Yeah, they thought there that that's right.

52:41 So that, so they're basically like, well, I know because they

52:44 didn't find out, apparently find out at some point that she

52:46 hadn't even got a GED like they didn't.

52:47 That was later. Yeah, right.

52:49 Yeah. But yeah, eventually.

52:50 It kind of all came out very, very.

52:52 Slowly, as things unravelled. For they basically said to her

52:55 at the time, right? Yeah.

52:56 So they've become more and more strict.

52:57 They've figured out, OK, you're not at the University of

52:59 Toronto. You're not, you don't have this

53:01 internship or this whatever volunteer job that you say

53:03 you've got. Yeah.

53:04 So you are going to now work to get in to the University of

53:10 Toronto. Yeah.

53:11 They've made like, I think they've put a curfew on her.

53:14 She's allowed, not allowed to go out after 9:00 PM or something.

53:18 Now by this stage, she's an adult like.

53:20 Well, this is it. I mean also in that in they've

53:22 also know already that at one stage prior to that that she was

53:25 they found out she was dating Daniel Wong, which they should

53:28 already had massive arguments over that with their parents

53:30 with their parents. That one she wasn't allowed to

53:32 date anyone, let alone a guy who only works at a pizza restaurant

53:35 and is a drug dealer. Like I don't blame him.

53:38 He. Was studying engineering.

53:40 He was always, I mean, yeah, their belief was he wasn't gonna

53:42 be able to provide a life for her.

53:44 I mean, I'd be a bit anti the drug dealing situation as well,

53:46 but hundred, the fact you've been working in a pizza shop and

53:49 studying, I don't have an issue with that.

53:50 Not at all. But yeah, so.

53:52 And particularly at her age, I guess, yeah, that's an issue.

53:56 But yeah, so they had already forbidden her from continuing

53:58 our relationship with him and all those sorts of things as

54:01 well. So is this the point where they

54:03 gave her the ultimatum? It's either Danny or us.

54:06 Yeah, pretty. Much said to her, Yeah, like, so

54:08 you here's your choice. Basically, you, you can go be

54:11 with Danny. You can leave them.

54:13 That's it. We cut ties.

54:14 Like, you move out and you're on your own.

54:17 Because I have. We should say, too.

54:18 While she was at university, she was telling her parents that it

54:21 was too hard for her to do the travel back and forth and to

54:23 commit to her studies. She would stay at a friend's

54:26 house, Topaz and and on some days of the week, I think three

54:30 nights a week I think. It was Monday, Tuesday,

54:32 Wednesday night. Yeah, she would stay, she would

54:34 stay there. Topaz with Topaz.

54:36 So cool. So it's apparently and then and

54:39 then the other nights, the week she was at home with her

54:40 parents. So and her parents were OK with

54:43 that because it was about her studying and everything.

54:45 But it came the dad actually rang Tobaz.

54:47 That's when it really came on unraveling for her.

54:48 She he rang Topaz to say, you know.

54:50 Well thanks for supporting our door and helping with that.

54:53 What a narc Jesus. Total narc.

54:57 OK so this makes me think because Topaz is like oh she's

54:59 literally never stayed a night here.

55:01 No wouldn't. You word your friend up and just

55:02 say hey, I'm gonna hang out at my.

55:04 Boyfriend. What I'm saying?

55:05 That's what I'm saying, Yeah. So Jennifer hasn't even had this

55:07 conversation with Topaz to go. Hey mate, cover for me please.

55:10 Because I mean, if you, if you, I can imagine us, we weren't

55:12 teenagers knowing each other, but we were totally targeted for

55:14 this buck. I mean, that's.

55:16 What you do with your friends? Yeah.

55:17 So she like she like totally did not carry through the line and

55:21 said, I don't know, she's have been living here, she's never.

55:24 She actually said like she's never stayed here for one night.

55:26 No, no, and then found out that she's been staying with Danny

55:29 that time, which his family even like they were lying who she was

55:32 lying to them saying that her parents knew about this

55:35 arrangement that she was going to be staying there three nights

55:37 a week and they were great. Let's have let's do dinner and

55:41 let's catch up. Parents wanted.

55:42 To meet because, I mean, this was obviously quite a serious

55:45 relationship, had been going on for years.

55:47 And yeah, his parents obviously liked Jennifer and and welcomed

55:51 her into their home. And this sort of point, they've

55:53 been sort of on and off dating for like 8 years.

55:55 Yes, a long time. Like so yeah, wouldn't you then

55:58 embrace this relationship then? But.

56:00 But then, yeah, Danny kind of got fed up with it, didn't he?

56:02 Like he, he. Respected the fact that her

56:04 parents were like, this isn't gonna work, like kind of thing.

56:07 And he did. I think all you could do in that

56:09 situation if Jen, if Jennifer really was gonna keep her family

56:11 in her life. Yeah, I think I need to bow out.

56:14 I think that he maybe just wasn't as in love with her as he

56:17 she was with. Him.

56:18 I think that's true. I think that's true, yeah.

56:21 I mean, he, he obviously cared for her.

56:23 And that comes out over, Yeah, over the course of the the

56:26 events that happened and the events that unfold.

56:28 He obviously had some care for her.

56:30 Yeah. But I think you're right.

56:32 I think she was more into him than he was into her.

56:35 And basically he just got. He'd had enough, You know, by

56:39 this stage, Jennifer's 2424 years of age, She's got a 9:00

56:45 PM curfew. She has to call him off a SIM

56:48 card that her parents don't know about because her parents still

56:51 confiscate her phone. Yeah.

56:54 And it just like as a 24 year old man, or he would have been

56:58 2526 at the time. Of course, you'd be like, yeah,

57:00 now this is just too much for me.

57:01 I just can't. So I'm bowing out of this.

57:03 Yeah. And so he's done that and he's

57:06 he's broken off ties with her. She is still, like, I would say,

57:10 obsessed with you. She everything she does is to

57:14 sort of win him back. Win him back.

57:16 But he meets another woman named Christine.

57:20 Christine. I was going to say Caroline.

57:21 I think you're right, Christine. No, you're absolutely.

57:23 It is Christine. And in February 2010, he starts

57:29 dating this Christine. Yeah.

57:31 And he, like, you know, by all accounts things were going quite

57:36 well between them. But Jennifer decides to put a

57:39 bit of a spanner in the works. And she rings Danny one day and

57:43 says to him that she answered her door and a couple of a man

57:49 who was dressed as a police officer came in and a couple of

57:53 other men came in behind him and they gang raped her.

57:57 Oh my God, I'm sorry. What?

57:58 What? And he's like and, and Christine

58:01 sent them. It was all Christine's fault.

58:03 Yeah, so apparently she had sent her a message on Facebook or

58:06 something as well. Like, hey, stay out of stay away

58:07 from a boyfriend, like anything. Fair enough.

58:10 Stay away. You've.

58:11 Broken up with him like leave him alone.

58:13 That, but that was used then as her evidence to Danny of like it

58:15 was her. She's telling me to back off.

58:17 And did this, didn't Jennifer also say that she received a

58:20 bullet in the mail or something from Christine?

58:23 Yeah, like weird shit. And none of none of this was.

58:25 True. None of us.

58:26 She was never gang raped. Christine never did anything

58:29 aside from send her a messenger to say.

58:31 One or two text messages or a Facebook message or something to

58:33 say yeah, back off like she's. Mine now, yeah, that's.

58:36 Weird. I don't think there was anything

58:37 much in that in terms of that. But yeah.

58:40 But then but oddly enough, Danny starts getting threatening

58:43 messages and so does Christine. And so but so does Jennifer.

58:47 Like so there's this who's sending these messages which

58:51 came into it a bit of like the into the interviews about Bick

58:55 and Hans attack because it was like, well, yeah, well, we've

58:59 been getting these threatening messages and don't know who

59:00 they're from. Like could this be the person

59:02 who's, you know, now in done this crime?

59:05 So yeah, it was like, well, bit odd like.

59:08 But she said like she sent messages like bang, bang, bang.

59:11 Well, he received messages like that, but quite threatening

59:14 messages then. And like, so the cops were a bit

59:15 like, it's curious what's going on here.

59:18 Interesting. But Jennifer used that as a need

59:20 to contact Danny as well and be like, well, you know, I've just

59:23 received, you know, he, she was sort of appealing to him to sort

59:27 of look out for her and whatnot. Yeah, yeah.

59:32 It's a it's an incredibly complicated.

59:34 Oh, it's a web she has absolutely created there.

59:38 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

59:40 Yeah. So basically at this point, the

59:44 cops have really got a picture here of a girl who's lied, you

59:49 know, for 10 years about her entire life.

59:51 She's LED a complete double life.

59:53 There's Danny Wong. He's got connections in the drug

59:57 world and so there's no and there's no other things that are

1:00:04 in there this life that would indicate someone that would come

1:00:06 into a home and commit this crime against this family.

1:00:10 So they start sort of peeling back the layers a bit more on

1:00:13 all of this. And as that sort of starts

1:00:15 unraveling a little, the next thing happens is that three days

1:00:18 after this, Han Pan wakes up. So he's been in an induced coma

1:00:23 for three days and he wakes up. And not only does he just wake

1:00:26 up from his induced coma, this miracle occurs.

1:00:30 He remembers everything about that night.

1:00:33 Yeah. Which I mean, you wouldn't.

1:00:34 I mean, I think they were basically told by the the the

1:00:37 hospital, even if he does wake up, chances are he's gonna be

1:00:42 potentially impacted quite severely, you know, around

1:00:46 positively. Yeah, from this, the way the

1:00:48 bullets, you know, gone and things.

1:00:49 So don't expect much, you know he came out bang.

1:00:53 Well, apparently I'm remembering everything.

1:00:54 The police thought it was quite almost amusing because he's

1:00:58 woken up from this coma and they go in to interview him thinking

1:01:00 he's gonna be like, yeah, lying down.

1:01:02 He's sitting up in bed. I mean, he, he was.

1:01:05 He was. Yeah, and all that kind.

1:01:06 Of Yeah. And apparently, like, he

1:01:07 couldn't speak very well. Or speak.

1:01:10 Yeah, yeah. But he was sitting up in bed

1:01:13 like a man who's been shot in his face.

1:01:15 He's still got bullet fragments in his face and his shoulder.

1:01:18 And also apparently very one of the very first things he

1:01:20 actually said. I think it might have been to a

1:01:23 nurse or someone was I don't want Jennifer coming anywhere

1:01:25 near me. Yep, like something.

1:01:27 Although they did call her and she did go to visit him.

1:01:30 Yeah. But she was like the police or

1:01:34 so at this time, you know, they also had their suspicions.

1:01:37 And they did not allow Jennifer to be unaccompanied with her

1:01:41 father. So there was always somebody in

1:01:43 the room whenever she. Well.

1:01:46 You don't baby it. Nervous of what she might not

1:01:49 even just speak to him about, but pull a plug.

1:01:52 I don't know. So what?

1:01:54 This is the bit that really gets me.

1:01:58 So we'll talk about the police interview in one second.

1:02:01 What came out of that about that?

1:02:02 But when Jennifer went to see him after he's woken up from his

1:02:05 coma, she asked him for money. Yes.

1:02:08 Like $1200. Yeah.

1:02:09 She was like, oh, I'm going to pay my college.

1:02:11 I'm going. To pay my college tuition, yeah,

1:02:13 but I'm not. Which isn't actually real, no.

1:02:16 I need $1200. Yes, that's right.

1:02:19 What? You absolute fucking Dick head.

1:02:23 Off Yep. Yep.

1:02:25 Like OMG, so that just goes no way and how you're.

1:02:31 Feeling. Yeah.

1:02:32 Are you OK? What can we do?

1:02:33 Oh, my God. We've got a plan.

1:02:34 Mum's funeral we've got. And in this time actually as

1:02:37 well, in that three days that Han was in a coma.

1:02:39 Yeah. Because Father passed away.

1:02:42 So he was a very elderly man at the time.

1:02:44 I think he was in his 90s. Yeah.

1:02:47 And he actually passed away in the family.

1:02:49 Think he passed away from heartbreak because his daughter.

1:02:51 Daughter died. Bless.

1:02:54 That just so. Yeah, like this man who's what

1:02:58 he's just gone through to also then have to break to him.

1:03:00 I mean, I from what I can gather.

1:03:02 And again, it's very culturally that, you know, generational

1:03:06 generations of families, you know, they are very close.

1:03:08 So to break it to him that his father-in-law has passed away

1:03:12 and his wife is is passed away. I mean, I think he already knew

1:03:17 that because he found her obviously when he he came to

1:03:21 apparently, and this is from his account of events, like we knew

1:03:24 that he somehow got out the front, but he said that he he

1:03:28 saw her feet immediately when he came to and knew that she was

1:03:32 dead and that and that's when he made his way out the front and.

1:03:34 He said there was so much blood, but yeah.

1:03:36 Oh, God. So his account is really

1:03:40 interesting. So at at this point, obviously

1:03:43 the only eyewitness they, the police, have been able to

1:03:45 interview is Jennifer. Yeah.

1:03:47 He when he's interviewed, he actually says that at certain

1:03:54 points throughout the ordeal, he sees one of the assailants,

1:04:01 like, whispering gently to Jennifer.

1:04:03 Jennifer was just walking freely around the house.

1:04:05 She wasn't bound at this point at all.

1:04:09 And so he obviously has, well, he he thinks Jennifer's involved

1:04:13 right from the get go and tells the police he's smart.

1:04:15 He. Was adamant from the get go he

1:04:16 could see that she was. And he basically, apparently he

1:04:19 said to the police, you go and do your job like you like, yeah,

1:04:24 I've given you what you I need to give you.

1:04:25 You go and use your police skills.

1:04:27 Yeah. Yeah, and and get her.

1:04:28 Yeah. Yeah, he was, he knew straight

1:04:30 away. Yeah.

1:04:31 So the other bit of evidence they did have as well, which I

1:04:33 mean, it lines aligns with what Jennifer was saying was that

1:04:36 they were able to get some CCTV footage from a house across the

1:04:39 street where they can see three men entering the house again,

1:04:44 without any force. They walked straight through

1:04:46 that front door and they can see the three men.

1:04:48 It's very grainy footage. So there was absolutely no way

1:04:50 of identifying these men as being, you know, that that her

1:04:54 her description of them was accurate or not, but definitely

1:04:57 three men. You could see very grainy images

1:04:59 exiting the building, exiting the house as well.

1:05:01 And and what time. And so the time's definitely

1:05:04 married up of what she was talking about.

1:05:05 But what that also married up to were text messages and phone

1:05:08 calls that were being made on the night.

1:05:11 So yeah, there was lots of. So that along with then Hans

1:05:16 witness statement, it all came into yeah.

1:05:20 So Jennifer had like a burner phone, so she had her main phone

1:05:23 and she gave the police authority to look into her phone

1:05:27 records for that. Again, that was very interesting

1:05:29 in the interview when the police officer asks her for access to

1:05:33 her phone, basically to go to look at, you know, and, and

1:05:36 rightly so, again, thinking that she's very much a victim in this

1:05:38 situation to kind of go like what time did certain things

1:05:41 happen? And, and he was talking to her

1:05:43 about the fact that they would do that to be able to see, you

1:05:46 know, you might think in days later there was someone you're

1:05:48 talking to that this might relate to, you know, that there

1:05:50 is some someone who has got, you know, a grudge against your dad

1:05:53 or your mom or, you know, something.

1:05:54 So they might come up in days in a few days time that we need to

1:05:57 then go back to the phone and go, Ah, that's who that person

1:05:59 is. We might be able to track that

1:06:00 from that number, who that person is and where, you know,

1:06:03 he goes. It just, we need to have that

1:06:05 information which did hand it over, wouldn't you?

1:06:08 She questioned. It something shocking, didn't

1:06:10 you? How far back into my phone are

1:06:12 you gonna look? What are you gonna look at?

1:06:13 Who are you gonna contact? From there because from there

1:06:15 because. Sometimes I call my teachers and

1:06:18 he's like, well, we're not gonna be contacting your teachers.

1:06:20 We're gonna contact people who are relevant in this case, like,

1:06:24 you know, we're not going to just ring everyone you've spoken

1:06:26 to in the last 9 days. Although who knows?

1:06:29 Because the other thing that is interesting and this as the

1:06:32 interviews go on. So she was eventually

1:06:33 interviewed three times by the police, first time immediately

1:06:37 after, no real suspicions of her.

1:06:40 Second interview, they've got a lot more information.

1:06:43 They've spoken to Danny and they're sort of starting to

1:06:46 really form their. Their case, one of their points,

1:06:49 main things they wanted to get out of them was how on earth did

1:06:51 she make this call? Yeah, yeah.

1:06:53 They pulled her in to really ask her about that.

1:06:55 Yeah, but she, you know, over by the time they get to the third

1:06:58 interview, they've discovered she's got a burner phone.

1:07:01 They ask her about that and she. And that might have been come

1:07:04 earlier because she admitted to the fact that she to contact

1:07:07 Danny because they, I think it might have been in the second

1:07:09 interview, OK, about it saying, well, they knew there was a

1:07:11 relationship with this Danny Wong, that he was a name they

1:07:13 need to look at that She'd already said, oh, yeah, I had to

1:07:17 use a different phone, Danny. Danny gave me another phone and

1:07:20 an old iPhone so I could contact him and I'd take the SIM out of

1:07:22 that and and use that and things like like that.

1:07:25 So she was, she'd already admitted that she had additional

1:07:27 phones. She must have had more than

1:07:29 that, though, because she had three, I think.

1:07:30 Yeah, because she had the one that she was sending the text

1:07:33 messages to Danny and Christine and they're threatening

1:07:35 messages. So that wouldn't have been the

1:07:37 same one that she was no legitimately contacting Danny on

1:07:39 and then the one that her family knew about.

1:07:41 So there's got to be at least three that she was using.

1:07:43 Yeah. Which again, I mean, I don't

1:07:44 even know. I don't know how to do that.

1:07:47 Yeah, but and also like, the fact that she's keeping track of

1:07:49 all that must have been exhausting.

1:07:51 Go on. Well, to be honest, the worst

1:07:53 thing that I would have not wanted the cops to see with

1:07:55 looking into her phone were her gross, sappy messages between

1:08:00 her and Danny. Have you read?

1:08:01 Yeah, the Monkey it's faulting. It's it's gross, but I also, the

1:08:08 other thing, so do I, but I also found that it was really

1:08:13 juvenile. And I was like, oh, maybe these

1:08:15 are text messages from when they were in high school, but it

1:08:17 wasn't. It was from when they were in

1:08:18 there. Like they were recent.

1:08:19 They were within the six. No, not even, I think it was

1:08:22 like 3 months prior. Yeah.

1:08:24 So Danny's with this other girl at the time.

1:08:25 Yeah. Yeah.

1:08:26 Christine. Yeah.

1:08:27 And he's sending these fucking sappy ass text messages.

1:08:30 It was I was like really, but I bit vomiting.

1:08:34 It's something that I would. I've sent to my boyfriend when I

1:08:36 was in year 7. Like it's not.

1:08:38 I would never. Have as a 24.

1:08:40 I'm sorry as a 20. Four, I'll read you my opinion

1:08:43 of you. You can't.

1:08:45 You can't say messages like this is really gross.

1:08:47 I'll read it out and I'll tell you what.

1:08:48 I'll try not to vomit. I would rather listen to a story

1:08:51 of like someone being disemboweled like and murder any

1:08:55 day of the week than this crap like.

1:08:56 This yeah, but we we've got a true crime podcast.

1:08:58 I know this is mushy as this is so great.

1:09:01 OK go. OK, what is that monkey MUNKY

1:09:07 pokes monkey side that's from Jennifer and then Danny Wong.

1:09:12 Huh? What's a wrong from then

1:09:15 Jennifer Squishy face craving attention Jennifer chickens got

1:09:21 cluck and monkey say Danny oh oh oh me oh oh oh Jennifer meez

1:09:31 nose nose used monkey make meez sound maybe no harm.

1:09:36 OK, I have. I have literally never sent a

1:09:38 text message like that. I'm.

1:09:40 Glad to hear it. So yeah, that's that's the kind

1:09:43 of stuff that's how they spoke like full.

1:09:45 Baby talk vomit. It's gross, Gross.

1:09:50 It's gross, but also way below their years.

1:09:54 Like, like immature, Yeah. Yes, I mean.

1:09:56 But then that that, you know, the control that Jennifer's

1:10:01 parents had and the way they limited her, they wanted her to

1:10:05 be young. They wanted her to be like that.

1:10:07 But then in limiting her like that, I think that's created

1:10:10 this absolute pressure cooker of a situation that has resulted in

1:10:13 what what has then come. I am not saying there is any

1:10:17 justification for the fact that what we now know is that

1:10:21 Jennifer ordered a hit on her parents.

1:10:25 She has been convicted of of lie of murder, attempted murder in

1:10:32 the first degree and attempted murder and conspiracy to commit

1:10:35 murder. Her and her accomplices, which

1:10:39 again, we'll get to in a SEC in more depth, but nothing like

1:10:44 literally nothing justifies the fact that she has brought that

1:10:47 upon her family. One of the things that I find

1:10:51 really interesting though, is that her parents, so they've

1:10:58 given her this ultimatum. Either it's Danny or us, and

1:11:00 she's chosen her family, but her family have also never set her

1:11:04 up to be able to live in society as a functioning adult.

1:11:10 So she's had a curfew on her. You know, she's 24 years old,

1:11:14 and she has to be home by 9:00 PM She still has to practice

1:11:17 piano for a certain number of hours a day.

1:11:19 Yeah. She's.

1:11:20 She's so controlled. She's so tightly bound within

1:11:24 the confines of that house. Yeah.

1:11:26 Now, OK, she has lied to her parents.

1:11:31 This has been found out. But at the end of the day, she's

1:11:35 an adult. Yeah.

1:11:36 Control could they possibly have over her?

1:11:38 This is the thing. So that style of parenting that

1:11:40 we were talking about. So there's actual research

1:11:42 that's been put into this, right?

1:11:44 So, so children that grow up in that controlling environment of

1:11:49 their parent that when they're overly strict and punitive, that

1:11:52 some of the effects of that are that they have an increased risk

1:11:56 of anxiety, low self esteem and depression, more likely to be

1:12:00 pathological, sorry, psychologically maladjusted,

1:12:05 have difficulty in decision making in their own life, have

1:12:09 difficulty forming close relationships with others and

1:12:11 finding like themselves. OK and and fending for

1:12:16 themselves as well in terms of like standing up for themselves

1:12:18 in situations. Absolutely.

1:12:19 Yep. They have a greater fear of

1:12:20 making mistakes. So I don't want to disappoint

1:12:23 anyone and have a lower sense of family obligation, lower grade

1:12:27 point average, which is a complete opposite of what they

1:12:30 want. Higher level of alienation and a

1:12:32 higher level of academic pressure.

1:12:33 Obviously have an increased risk of self harm and suicidal

1:12:38 behaviour among particularly Asian children.

1:12:40 OK and young young adults and they have issues with

1:12:45 self-discipline as they were not taught how to man do that for

1:12:49 themselves. And their children, that's my

1:12:51 point. Like they, she hasn't had the

1:12:52 opportunity to learn how to not be in the world independently.

1:12:57 So she wouldn't have even had the tools within herself, I

1:13:00 don't think to be able to leave that family unit.

1:13:03 No, that she hadn't been brought up.

1:13:06 Like, you know, one of one of the measures of success for me

1:13:09 as a parent is that my kids will be able to be functioning, you

1:13:13 know, well adjusted adults who can contribute positively in

1:13:17 society without, without my intervention.

1:13:19 Yeah, without needing to call me every 5 minutes and ask me what

1:13:22 to do. Like that is, that's a huge

1:13:25 thing for me and. But, and unfortunately, The

1:13:28 thing is that research has also changed the whole flip side of

1:13:31 that though, which is what I think really drives them with

1:13:34 this wanting to to parent like this is that there's a whole

1:13:38 heap of research around that. This The fact is that Harvard

1:13:42 University, the most prestigious university I think in all of

1:13:44 America, maybe even the world, potentially 30% of freshmen of

1:13:49 their intake is Asian, whereas only 5% of the population is

1:13:54 Asian. Oh.

1:13:55 Wow, OK. So in Australia there's been

1:13:57 studies done on children who come from Asian backgrounds and

1:14:01 from then Australian backgrounds Asian children are more likely

1:14:04 to to, particularly maths. Maths is probably the highest

1:14:07 one. I'm more likely to, I'm more

1:14:10 likely to achieve 2 1/2 years higher worth of learning than an

1:14:15 Australian culturally raised child.

1:14:19 Yeah. So it's an interesting goes down

1:14:21 to about I think it's at least a year ahead of Australian

1:14:25 children with children from an Asian background.

1:14:28 So there's definitely academically there's certainly

1:14:32 outcomes that are valid. So that and but when academic

1:14:38 emotional, I was going to say academics don't make a person.

1:14:41 No. So emotionally though, that

1:14:43 impact is huge. Yeah.

1:14:45 So and then whether or not it and then it comes down to what

1:14:48 you deem as successful. In terms of your parenting, Yep.

1:14:50 And I guess from, you know, potentially in a household, the

1:14:54 way you're raising a child like that, their academic success is

1:14:57 what you were achieved when #1 when you achieved it.

1:15:00 Yeah. In a household.

1:15:01 In a different household, it might be that the success means

1:15:04 that you're independent and able to function society all these

1:15:06 things in a positive way then maybe not so successful in that

1:15:12 unfortunately, yes, yeah. But So what was also I was

1:15:17 mentioning there too is that so Jennifer also did a lot of self

1:15:20 harm. So which a lot of people then

1:15:24 actually then link to suicidal, but it doesn't necessarily so

1:15:29 because when you're self harming, you're actually not

1:15:32 wanting to hurt. You're wanting to hurt yourself

1:15:34 to a point where and create pain for yourself, but not to

1:15:38 actually end your life. Yeah.

1:15:39 So there is a difference. And that it's believed that she

1:15:42 was she was purely doing self harm of like some cutting, I

1:15:45 think it was. Yeah, it was cutting.

1:15:46 Yeah. So what that's also an indicator

1:15:48 of though is is a borderline personality disorder.

1:15:54 So put my psychologist hat on, but one personality disorder

1:15:59 hampers a person's ability to regulate their own emotions,

1:16:02 right? So there's lack of impulse

1:16:04 control, extreme mates, extreme mood swings, and they see the

1:16:08 world very black and white. So there's a lot of potentially

1:16:13 that's what's going on here with her.

1:16:15 And not necessarily would that be triggered by the tiger

1:16:20 parenting. OK.

1:16:22 Does it? There isn't really maybe a

1:16:24 connection between the two. OK.

1:16:26 So if she's got that environment but also got borderline

1:16:29 personality disorder, that's where this combusted from.

1:16:33 Right. Potentially.

1:16:35 Well, there are a lot of children of tiger parents who

1:16:39 don't go on to exactly kill them.

1:16:41 So there's obviously a lot of complexity at play here.

1:16:45 Yeah. And as we said, it was at the

1:16:50 top of this episode. This is such a complex case, and

1:16:53 it's very nuanced. And, you know, as you said, it's

1:16:57 not something that we can understand because we haven't

1:16:59 been brought up in a family like that.

1:17:01 Yeah. But again, not everybody who's

1:17:05 brought up in that in kind of environment.

1:17:07 In fact, most people don't then go on to conspire to kill their

1:17:11 parents. And I mean, I have to wonder,

1:17:13 like, her brother didn't do this, you know, kind of thing.

1:17:15 He was raised in a second. Although he's a boy and she's a

1:17:18 girl, so there were and expectations of them.

1:17:20 There were differences in how they were treated.

1:17:22 Yeah. However, if you've got a 14 year

1:17:25 old who is mucking around and doing things and like not.

1:17:29 They knew at the time that she was forging her report cards,

1:17:31 but I dare say there were other behaviours going on.

1:17:34 They felt they knew that at 1416 and stuff like this she was

1:17:36 dating a boy that they didn't want her dating.

1:17:38 All these sorts of things to get to 24, still living under your

1:17:42 roof and you find out she's not been to university for years,

1:17:46 all these sorts of things. As a parent you've got to go,

1:17:48 what the hell, what do I do to get you back on track?

1:17:52 Not I'm not advocating for them doing what they did in terms of

1:17:55 setting those boundaries, but I in some way can understand that

1:17:59 they were. They were desperate.

1:18:00 What they? Desperate to try and get their

1:18:02 child back on track of like all the like.

1:18:04 When you go back to who she was before 14, she was, you know,

1:18:08 exceeding in her piano lesson, she was exceeding in her her ice

1:18:12 skating. Clearly she was probably more

1:18:14 physical able than academically able, I think, and that's maybe

1:18:18 where they potentially went wrong in that side of like in

1:18:20 rather than but then she got injured.

1:18:21 So that's I know piano could have been something a passion.

1:18:24 I don't know, but I don't know. I do question that whole like

1:18:29 can understand somewhat than putting in these boundaries for

1:18:32 her and they did give her an out and said, you know, you can move

1:18:34 on, like move out and be on your.

1:18:36 Own they'd set her up to not be able to be out and be on her

1:18:38 own. So I feel like she almost didn't

1:18:40 have a choice in that respect because what would she have

1:18:42 done? You know well.

1:18:43 She could moved in with her boyfriend I.

1:18:45 Guess yeah. Yes, I get that.

1:18:47 But she had then no backing. And, you know, she's been told

1:18:50 her whole life that her family is everything.

1:18:52 Yeah. She couldn't turn her back on

1:18:54 that. Like her core beliefs.

1:18:55 I don't think it would allow for that.

1:18:57 Yeah. What she was told her core

1:18:59 beliefs were because I think you're right, when when you were

1:19:01 describing some of those traits, she didn't have a sense of self

1:19:06 at all. No, she kind of just let

1:19:09 everyone. She she she adapted her

1:19:12 personality and her behaviour. Yeah.

1:19:15 To the person she was interacting with.

1:19:17 Absolutely. She didn't have that true sense

1:19:19 of self which you develop over those high school years.

1:19:22 Yeah. But she'd already started at

1:19:24 that point lying. And that kind of became her

1:19:26 core. She was absolutely.

1:19:28 Oh, God. Yeah.

1:19:30 So basically just really quickly to wrap this up, because Yeah,

1:19:34 I've just noticed the time, you know, we've been chatting for

1:19:37 ages, but she basically through Daniel Wong, she has arranged

1:19:44 for and he have arranged for these men to come into the house

1:19:50 and and kill her parents. Yeah, she attempted one prior.

1:19:54 Once prior with someone else that ended up being paid up.

1:19:57 Yep, that was fake. So that was with.

1:20:00 Yep, that was fake. Everything multiple places.

1:20:02 Ricardo. This was Ricardo.

1:20:04 She says this is her account and it has now been 100% disproven.

1:20:09 What she says that she paid him $1500.

1:20:12 What? Who would kill some of the

1:20:13 $1500? I mean, there's surely there's

1:20:15 more money in it than that. She states that he took her

1:20:19 money and left and he, she never heard of him or saw him again.

1:20:23 The police have found him since, Yeah, interviewed him.

1:20:26 There's they, they know for sure that she never, she actually

1:20:32 lent him $200 to go out one night.

1:20:35 So he was an acquaintance of Danny Wong.

1:20:37 Yes. And so she had given him money

1:20:40 that he hadn't paid back, to be fair, right, 200 bucks.

1:20:44 But she had never. And he swears.

1:20:46 And I, I, I'm not quite sure how the police validated this, but

1:20:49 they've come out and said he this never happened.

1:20:53 Yeah. And she never gave him the

1:20:55 $1500. No, no.

1:20:57 But. What do for $1500?

1:20:59 Yeah, literally no one. Even the 10 grand which these so

1:21:03 these three people ended up. Doing this agreeing at 5 grand a

1:21:06 pop, so 5 grand per parent. Yeah, exactly.

1:21:10 Split three, Well, split four ways, five ways.

1:21:12 How many ways does it? Go, I think four ways, like if

1:21:14 you include Danny in it, which I'm sure he took his cart being

1:21:17 the organizer. Yeah, but they've rented a car,

1:21:20 they've purchased guns. So that's eating into your

1:21:23 profits, isn't it? Yeah.

1:21:26 And the idea was that they would actually take $2000 at the time

1:21:30 of the invasion. Yeah, they actually took 2 1/2.

1:21:32 I. Think it was like. $3400 they

1:21:34 ended up getting, but that was around the house, yeah.

1:21:36 That was a combo of the money Jennifer had for them, yes, and

1:21:39 then the money they'd. Found they left all sorts of

1:21:41 other money around the house. Yeah, which is bizarre because

1:21:43 they've gone in there going yeah, we want your money, but

1:21:46 have not then looked for all the.

1:21:47 Money running out on the table, apparently even.

1:21:49 Like, yeah, because wallet had 280 bucks or something in it.

1:21:55 So they've gone out with yeah, it was a bit over 3 grand, I

1:21:58 think in the end. Yeah.

1:22:00 And then when it. So the idea was that then

1:22:05 Jennifer would pay them the remainder when she got the

1:22:07 inheritance in their life insurance.

1:22:09 So basically she was, I mean, and that's what they say was

1:22:12 their motivator was that she was going to would inherit.

1:22:16 Well, there'd be the house they owned outright, the two parents,

1:22:19 a car each like as in like those the hair and her sibling would

1:22:21 obviously go halves in all this. So there'd be a car which would

1:22:24 be a Lexus or a Mercedes, like a nice, nice brand car.

1:22:26 So a fair bit of money there. Plus there was a $1 million life

1:22:30 insurance policy over the two of them.

1:22:32 So then it would be half a million of that that she would

1:22:33 get so decent. And she'd pay them the remainder

1:22:37 of the $8000. Yeah, when she got that.

1:22:40 More than that out of yeah half 1,000,000 bucks.

1:22:42 When she got that settlement, one of the perpetrators was

1:22:47 named Leonard Crawford, and he was known as Homeboy.

1:22:50 Homeboy, Oh. So 2010.

1:22:54 Homeboy, yeah. So he was kind of, I think, the

1:22:58 main guy. Yeah, he was the contact kind of

1:23:00 thing. They sort of say that Eddie was

1:23:03 the he was the more seasoned. Right.

1:23:10 So he was actually already being looked at for a murder at

1:23:13 another another murder at the time.

1:23:14 And he was then convicted of that murder.

1:23:16 Yeah, so he's he'd already. He had a rap sheet.

1:23:20 Yeah. So they say that he was actually

1:23:21 the the lead. Yeah, but yeah.

1:23:23 But Lenny was the sort of the contact and organizing it all.

1:23:28 So to this day though, they don't actually know who pulled

1:23:31 the trigger and who's bullet bullets actually caused the harm

1:23:35 and. They all had guns.

1:23:36 They all had guns. Yeah.

1:23:38 And they all sort of have not, not come forward, no.

1:23:40 Really, they're not ratting on each other.

1:23:42 No, the other. So there was Eric Cardi.

1:23:46 He was sorry, Eric, not Eddie. Yeah, Eddie, I don't know that I

1:23:49 think that was me. Sorry.

1:23:51 It was Eric Cardi. He was known as Sniper.

1:23:54 Oh, I didn't know. Yeah.

1:23:54 That was his nickname. And then there was David Mel

1:23:58 Vanegas. I was like still trying to get.

1:24:02 You did that one. And I don't, I didn't actually

1:24:05 find a nickname for him, so no, I disappointed.

1:24:07 All right. So they were the three along

1:24:10 with Eddie. So Eddie wasn't there on sorry,

1:24:13 Daniel wasn't there on the night, but he obviously had a

1:24:16 hand in, he knew these criminals from his sort of drug

1:24:19 connections and whatnot. But those three were the ones

1:24:22 who in the house were in the house and perpetrated the crime.

1:24:28 They all, including Jennifer, all 5, all 5 went to trial

1:24:33 together. So they were all charged with

1:24:35 all the exact same crimes. So they were all charged with a.

1:24:39 1st degree murder. Murder. 1st degree murder,

1:24:41 attempted murder of Han and conspiracy to commit murder.

1:24:45 Yeah. The trial was originally set, so

1:24:49 I think they went to trial in, was it 2014, In March of 2014,

1:24:54 it was slated to go for five months.

1:24:55 It went for 10, Yeah. They had countless witnesses.

1:25:00 Countless, you know, yeah, testimonials and whatnot, I

1:25:04 think. It was all the text messages

1:25:05 they had, yeah, lined up. So there's all these messages

1:25:07 that were like basically Jennifer saying, you know, that

1:25:09 we they're good to go, basically, yeah.

1:25:11 They could line up all the times of that with the CCTV footage

1:25:14 they had of like the. Mentoring and the other thing

1:25:16 that was really interesting from the CCTV from the neighbour's

1:25:19 house is like they were able to show that she signalled that it

1:25:22 was time for them to come in by flicking a light on and off.

1:25:25 Yes, yes. So yeah, they, they had so much

1:25:27 that really went towards the fact that this was definitely

1:25:30 premeditated and planned. Yeah, they all pleaded not

1:25:32 guilty. Yes.

1:25:33 Jennifer's case is that she actually wanted them to kill her

1:25:38 and not her parents, because if she were to commit suicide,

1:25:42 because she felt so oppressed and whatever, that that would

1:25:45 actually bring shame on the family.

1:25:47 And she didn't want to do that. So if she was murdered, that

1:25:49 would, you know, avoid that situation for her family.

1:25:53 To this day, that is her story. To this day, she maintains her

1:25:56 innocence and that she didn't want her mother and father

1:25:58 killed. But if that's the truth, why was

1:26:00 she wandering around the house with the criminals while her mum

1:26:03 and dad were in the basement about to get shot?

1:26:06 Yeah. Yeah, girl, come on, come on.

1:26:10 It doesn't actually line. Up nothing.

1:26:11 Nothing lines up with. That, but yeah.

1:26:14 So eventually they were all convicted Well.

1:26:18 Yeah, Eric was his lawyer during the trial fell I'll so he

1:26:22 actually was then it was given a mistrial for him.

1:26:25 The others were all convicted of all the exact same thing, 25

1:26:27 years to life and. On all counts, All.

1:26:31 Counts. Yeah, Eric then had to sit a new

1:26:33 trial where he received, he actually I think he convicted on

1:26:37 a conspiracy. Yeah, so he didn't go to trial.

1:26:39 He pled guilty. He pled guilty, sorry,

1:26:41 conspiracy to commit murder and he was given 18 years yeah, for

1:26:45 that. But he was also gonna be in

1:26:47 inferred 25 to life on this other murder that occurred.

1:26:50 So he was being added to that sentence.

1:26:52 But unfortunately in 2018 he was killed in jailed.

1:26:56 Unfortunately, unfortunately, he's no.

1:26:57 Longer whatever. He's no longer with us, so.

1:26:59 The other 4 remaining that have all received 25 years to life,

1:27:03 they have just recently been one given a retrial.

1:27:08 So it's been found that in the first trial, unfortunately the

1:27:11 judge has not given the jury instructions that were

1:27:16 appropriate. So he's given them quite narrow

1:27:19 parameters. He basically told them that they

1:27:21 could only convict of what the charges were, as opposed to

1:27:25 giving them alternatives for the murder charge.

1:27:27 Yeah, so the. Technically, he said like he

1:27:29 that basically you can only basically said like you can only

1:27:33 consider like two different stories being accurate.

1:27:36 So basically Jennifer's story of her that they were there to

1:27:38 kill, kill me, not my parents, couldn't be considered.

1:27:43 He sort of only gave them these two options, which meant that it

1:27:46 narrowed that they could only be convicted of those outcomes, not

1:27:50 like, say manslaughter or something like that instead.

1:27:53 Yeah. So it's it's.

1:27:55 I get why it's happened so. The the retrial is only for the

1:28:01 murder conviction, yes. So the conspiracy to commit and

1:28:04 the and the yeah, the attempt attempted murder still stand.

1:28:09 Yeah. So it'll be interesting.

1:28:11 And that they're actually serving all of those sentences

1:28:13 concurrently. So if, if something, if the

1:28:15 murder charge is brought out, they they can actually, they'll

1:28:19 get out, yeah. So that's, there's been a date

1:28:22 set I believe for June next year, 2025.

1:28:24 So there'll be an update for this one.

1:28:26 Yeah. But yeah, that's be very

1:28:28 interesting to see what happens because I'd hate to think, to be

1:28:31 honest, that they get out. I'd love to hear your thoughts

1:28:34 though, on the fact that they've all been given at the moment, 25

1:28:37 to life. Danny's role in this was

1:28:41 literally Jennifer, this is my mate, Homeboy.

1:28:45 He'll help you out. Yeah.

1:28:47 He was going to take some of the money, so I could definitely see

1:28:49 conspiracy to murder there. But the other two charges, yes,

1:28:54 he didn't report to police again, but that's conspiracy.

1:28:57 I don't know. Or maybe obstruction that could

1:29:00 be like they could have gotten him on a different charge

1:29:01 because. It gives me vibes of Gypsy Rose,

1:29:05 Yep. And Nick Gurdjon.

1:29:07 Yep, that the fact like Gypsy didn't get as high a sentence as

1:29:10 Nick. Yeah, I mean the again.

1:29:13 But then again, Jennifer didn't pull the trigger either.

1:29:16 But she was the person who. Who I fully, I fully think

1:29:19 Jennifer. 'S total high and that should.

1:29:21 Be convicted of all the things she was convicted of.

1:29:24 Danny on the other hand, I agree with what you're saying.

1:29:26 I I was actually quite surprised when I read that the five of

1:29:30 them went to trial because I can understand the four not

1:29:32 including Danny. They were all in that house.

1:29:34 And different charges to be brought upon Danny.

1:29:37 Absolutely. Like he wasn't innocent in this,

1:29:38 so he deserves some repercussions for his

1:29:41 involvement. Absolutely.

1:29:43 I don't get how he could get a murder charge.

1:29:46 Yeah, I wonder what will happen especially for him in in this

1:29:49 retrial. Yeah, I'm really curious as if

1:29:51 I've missed something because I kept looking for something to

1:29:53 kind of go, how did he get that? That doesn't quite marry up for

1:29:57 me, but and maybe in this retrial, maybe that.

1:30:00 Will it'll be incorrect to see what comes out?

1:30:03 Yeah. The other thing that came out of

1:30:06 the the trial at the end was that Han and Felix requested a

1:30:12 lifelong restraining order against Jennifer, and that was

1:30:14 granted to them. So she's not allowed to make

1:30:16 contact with them for the remainder of her life.

1:30:19 Yep. And the court actually also

1:30:22 imposed that she is not allowed to contact Danny Wong ever, ever

1:30:26 again as well. Yeah.

1:30:27 So, yeah, that's AI think that's probably a really good thing.

1:30:31 Let's keep those, those guys apart.

1:30:33 Yeah, Jennifer is serving her time at the Grand Valley

1:30:38 Institution for Women. And I guess as you said, watch

1:30:43 this space as to what comes next and and what ends up.

1:30:47 Happening, she's in there for life, but we'll see what

1:30:49 happens. Yeah, could be it'll be

1:30:51 interesting. We'll maybe we'll do a bit more

1:30:54 live in terms of when it when the trial goes goes live, we'll

1:30:58 we'll try and update. As it as it goes.

1:31:00 Yeah, that sounds cool. Yeah.

1:31:02 So I guess that comes to the end of the episode for today.

1:31:05 It's been a bit of a long one, but you know, they all are What

1:31:10 how do. We get all this out of it.

1:31:11 I don't know, I. Don't know our next episode

1:31:15 we're looking into Gabby Petito. And you were just saying before

1:31:17 we hit record today that there's been a recent update and some

1:31:21 new? Sort of evidence.

1:31:22 Just what evidence has been released?

1:31:24 Yeah, just some stuff. A video clip of of what happened

1:31:28 on the day of her disappearance, her disappearance being notified

1:31:33 to police. So interesting little video clip

1:31:35 that was released and why that's been released now I don't.

1:31:37 Know forward to getting into that one because that that hits

1:31:40 hard Oh. Yeah.

1:31:42 That's a that's a big one. Yeah.

1:31:43 All right. Well, thank you again for

1:31:45 joining us on today's episode, and we really look forward to

1:31:49 seeing you again next week. Yeah, see everyone next week.

1:31:51 Stay curious. Kind of besties.