Episode 17 - The Boston Strangler

0:14 Welcome back to Crime Besties for episode #17 this week. Hello, Emma. Hey, Meg, how's it going? Good. How are you doing 'cause you've been crook as crook as crook? Yeah, we've had to skip a recording last week. Not that you guys will know anything about that 'cause it will just flow into one another. But yeah, yeah, I've been really, really unwell. There's so much going around, but, and I, I kind of, I was a little bit smug because we've kind of gotten through winter without having any serious, like I've had a mild cold and I think that was about the worst of it.

0:43 Yeah. But no, I I really got struck down. For Oh, you were the weak count, yeah. Yeah, belly surfaced for five days. So anyway, I'm feeling a lot better now. Still trying to get some of my energy back but. We'll forgive you. We'll we'll Yeah. Thanks. We'll take. We'll take. You how? How have you been? How the last couple of weeks been for you? Missing my bestie, but you know, we have survived. No, it's been good now. I've been not too bad a week. Been busy of course with all the usual stuff, but yeah, pretty good.

1:14 That's good. During my downtime, I had a bit of time to, you know, listen to a few different podcasts and and you know, I was just lying there on my deathbed and I came across this really cool podcast called hysterical. It's a wondery podcast and I find they produce really good podcast. Like if I'm looking for something off an old search for wondery podcast. And that's actually how I came found this one. It's really interesting. It's about, well, a, a very small cohort of, of kids come down with a tick and a bit like a sort of a Tourette syndrome type illness and they don't know how it happened or, you know, and, and the podcast kind of goes into the investigation of it and what.

2:02 Is it true? It's true. It's true. Like, it's absolutely. True in it's based in Leroy in New York. OK, Really fascinating, really good listen, very well produced, great podcast. Yeah. Oh, I'm gonna check it out. Yeah, really, Where to go? Interesting. Yeah, and while we're on shout outs for things, I just wanted to give a shout out today to. SO this lady is a school mum and we don't see that much of each other. Our kids are in the same year level, but you know, I'm down the other end of the school and I don't come across her very often.

2:33 We are on the school council together. But a massive shout out to Kim. She's been really lovely in supporting us. And you had an interaction with Kim the other day too. Yeah. 'Cause I don't, our kids aren't in the same year levels and things like, so I don't know that. Well, I just know that you've, you've pointed her out before sort of thing to me. And yeah, coming out of the basketball the other day and she, she bowled me up going, you don't know me, but I know you, you do the podcast. And that's like, oh, that's so gorgeous.

2:58 Yeah, she's so lovely. I love that sort of like women supporting women's stuff. So thanks so much, Kim. We really appreciate the support and the lovely feedback. Yes, thank you. I just love that people are actually enjoying it and, you know, like as much as we are. Yeah. And like. All like Kim, she has no obligation to listen. So no, you know, unlike unlike our husbands and families.

3:19 So thanks, Kim, it means a lot. It really does. Absolutely does. Yeah. I just had one thing to add to. I came across something just actually last night. It's a actually a petition that I'm going to ask people to sign if you so are so inclined. But also you do need to be a Victorian resident of Australia to sign this petition. But a real call to arms, I guess in this one, it's a very an interesting law that's only exists still in a in Victoria and across the rest of the country. This law doesn't exist the so the petitioning for this law to be removed in Victoria as well.

3:51 It's very old to outdated. Law, I think. So basically what the petition is, is around is this Emergency Management days that prisoners can claim in Vic. And what this has resulted in actually at the moment is during the COVID lockdowns in Melbourne, which we were extensively locked down. We were the most locked down in all the country, I think. In the world, we were the most locked down in the world. Give me a twitch, yeah. Big time, which, you know, we were all impacted outside of prisons in the free moving world.

4:25 We we were impacted by that. And you know, yes, there were certain compensations in place, but prisoners apparently can claim Emergency Management days and COVID lockdowns with one of them. And they can they can claim as much as four days per one day of inconvenience off their sentence. That blows my mind. So basically with just this is just in reference to COVID-19 that I'm speaking about here specifically, but this can be relating to they can have in if there's industrial action, if there's some sort of disruption or deprivation that they are impacted by or an emergency, they can claim days off of their sentence.

5:02 But with the COVID lockdowns that resulted in prisoners being able to claim in Victoria alone 360,000 days collectively off their sentences. And that is equivalent to over 1000 years of jail time being lessened for the for prisoners in Victoria. Wow. So basically we, we can't do anything about that. That's in the past. But if we can remove this law, people who should be serving their sentences will need to serve their full sentences based on legal stuff rather than emergency lockdowns and things like that be convenienced.

5:37 For a prisoner. Interesting. Yeah. So if you I will put the link to the petition in our show notes and on our our socials as well. But if you are so inclined please. And a Victorian resident, it has to be a Victorian resident. This petition's been done before and Australia wide people have got together and signed this petition, but the government will not look at it unless you are a Victorian resident. OK, so they've had to redo the petition for that reason and just ask Victorian residents to sign.

6:05 So yeah, I'll pop it in the socials and and our show notes and please jump on and sign it if you're so inclined. That would be great. Yeah, I mean, sounds like an incredibly worthy cause. I mean, what's the point in having a sentence if they can just then be reduced and reduced for things? I mean, if you're thinking about lockdown, I mean, hello. We were imprisoned in our own homes. Yeah. Yeah. And. We didn't commit murders. Yeah. And that's the other thing. It doesn't matter what your you could the only prisoner that it doesn't impact is terrorists, OK murderers, rapists, robbers, anything anything else it impacts.

6:41 So, OK, unless you're a terrorist, you get the the advantage of that, that being being able to be reduced on your sentence. We'll. Keep an eye out in the show notes and for sure yeah if you feel like giving it a go. Yeah, jump on. Thank you everyone. So what are we talking about today? Yeah, let's move into our case for today. So today we're gonna talk about the Boston Strangler. Yeah, it's very interesting case and good to find out at the end who who thinks they caught the guy. Well, yeah, caught the guy.

7:10 And you didn't they? Didn't. Yeah, I I mean, this one was a really new one for me. So I'd have heard of the Boston Strangler. Yeah. And I thought I knew a little bit about the case, but it turns out I don't really think I knew that much now that I've looked, now that we've looked into it a little bit longer. It is one of those cases where it's become so almost like pop culturalized that you know the term the Boston Strangler but maybe don't know the insurance and outs of. Absolutely. That was my.

7:35 Yeah, that's my. Experience even I thought you'd love. I found there was a little quote of the Boston Strangler being used in The Sopranos. Oh, do you remember it? No, I don't. So it was, I loved, it was gorgeous. It was Camilla and her mother-in-law. Yeah. You know, I just love that relationship between the two were there. I mean, that show and it was the mother-in-law was like, you know, oh, who's that at the door? And Camilla goes, oh, ma, it's the Boston Strangler. Stop panicking. I don't remember that reference.

8:03 My favorite show of all time Yeah. I mean, there's there's a lot of references to pop in pop culture. I know if you just have a look on the Wikipedia page for the Boston Strangler, there's like a whole page worth of references where it's been. Yeah, you know, referenced in movies and, yeah, TV shows and stuff. So for sure, yeah, there's a lot about it in the in the vernacular, but I didn't know the insurance and outs of this at all and I didn't even know sort of the the question marks around the case.

8:31 Yeah, yeah, for sure. No, I didn't realize all of that side of it either until I started looking into it more. So I mean, I watched a little mini movie on it just to get my because I had, I just wanted some reference points, you know, like, and that was the easiest way to kind of do that and to get sort of knowing that that potentially wasn't all fact, but as it went on, it was actually quite factual, that one. Yeah, I know you watched the more recent movie The Boston Strangler with. Keira Knightley Yeah, it's a really good movie.

8:54 Yeah, if you're interested, yeah. It's, you know, it's very well made. And there was a companion podcast that went with it, which was also called The Boston Strangler. Yeah. And that was a really interesting podcast that I listened to because the first few episodes are more about the actual crime and what happened. And then the last few episodes of the series was about how they made the movie. Yeah. So it was a bit of, you know, a bit of both. So there's some facts in there, but the movie seems to be quite true, true to real life events.

9:23 So yeah, yeah. Worth a watch if it's something that you're interested in for sure. And it was only made last year in 2023. So it's a a recent adaptation. Yeah. And to be honest, when I've got into it, like the story of it is so interesting that you can very easily make a very easily watchable movie. You know, that's entertaining because there's so many twists and turns to this. Yeah, to this case, because it was set back in the 60s. Well, I shouldn't say set back in the 60s. This is reality, people.

9:49 It happened. It was. So the first case that we're looking at was in 1962 when this started. And I mean, so we didn't have the technologies back then of what we do now to solve cases. So it was, you know, on the ground, the cops doing the cop work in terms of knocking on doors, finding witnesses. You know, there wasn't DNA testing, there wasn't even fingerprinting in, in those days. So it was very difficult to find someone. I believe too, from what I was reading that this is considered the 1st of modern time serial killer case.

10:26 Yep. Yeah, So this is that's in America. Sorry, Jack. The ripple is probably the most worldly known one. But yeah, the spots and stranglers, the first considered in America. Yeah, to be the first serial killer. And that's why I think there was a lot of maybe conjecture around it or, you know, people were were not quite sure because it was not like they'd seen anything like this before. Or to have so many women murdered in very similar ways with very similar MOS. Yeah. So they certainly weren't in criminal profilers, but in this state either.

11:00 I mean, although to be honest, looking back through what the police, police did, they were profiling with, you know, without knowing that's what it wasn't called that yet. Absolutely. The FBI actually got it pretty right. Yeah, we'll get into that a little bit later. Yeah, for sure. So the Boston Strangler murders, yeah, were attributed to a man named Albert de Salvo. He was born on the 3rd of September in 1931 and he came from a very interesting upbringing. And I think this is something that we talk about.

11:29 We've talked about this. I mean, we're episode 17. I reckon more than half of our episodes we've talked about the early life of these criminals and what they've gone through. And Albert de Salvo is absolutely not that, that he's not an exception to the to the rule that he's had such a traumatic upbringing. No, I mean, I'm sure with what you looked at, you would have seen some of the things that, you know, everywhere I went sort of mentioned a little bit more about what he was exposed to as a child.

11:58 Yeah. And each bit I was, like, mortified more and more. Yeah. I mean as I read, I read somewhere that he was made to watch his mum have her teeth knocked out and then watch as his dad broke every single one of her fingers. Apparently she was knocked out at the time, like he'd punched her so hard that her teeth were knocked out of her jaw. Yeah, and then he bent her fingers back and broke every single one of her fingers. His dad. He forced the children to watch that too. Yep, like which is just.

12:29 So his dad's name was Frank. He also brought prostitutes into the house and would perform absolutely revolting sexual acts and also make his wife and his children. Watch. Oh my God. So when you look at who he became, like, it makes sense. Unfortunately, like, doesn't it really? It's just. Albert also had a history as a youngster of torturing animals. And his crime sprees kind of started with fairly low level robberies. But, you know, it obviously escalated very, very quickly. Yeah, as he as he grew up.

13:09 But having said all of that, when he was arrested, they did speak to his, well, obviously his wife and family, friends, all those sorts of things about who he was and they all said he was a really lovely man. They did not actually suspect this of him and that they were they knew of his past and things like that, but they were he was very much in his home life depicted a man of I'm never gonna let my family see what I saw. I'm gonna make I'm gonna break the cycle kind of attitude. And so instead of doing it in the home, he did it elsewhere.

13:44 His wife was said that he had the most loving relationship with his children. He was really beautiful with them and didn't want them experiencing anything of what he experienced because it's real and his entire personality is a contradiction in so many ways when we get into it. We will get into that. But yeah, he very much in his home life, he set up a very loving family life and had friends and family who, you know, respected him. The only thing that stood out from his wife of what she commented on about him was that he had a very high sex drive.

14:13 Yep. That she struggled with a lot, particularly after having children and things, and that he didn't want to wait until she recovered and things like that that she struggled with. Yeah, and that caused issues. But but beyond that, which I'm not dismissing as being horrific and awful to probably live with, really, he was generally a good bike. Yeah, absolutely. In life, even his brother. So his brother's obviously grown up in the same environment as he has. Yeah. And. And isn't a perpetrator of crime.

14:43 It's. It should be well known. Yeah. Out of, I think he had five, there were five children in the family. And he's the only one that we know of that's, you know, committed these heinous crimes. Yeah. But his brother even says that, that he would never have picked it. He, he, you know, the police came to interview his brother. And he's like, well, no, my brother would never do that. He doesn't have that personality. So even those, as you say, those closest to him, his wife, you would think behind closed doors, in the privacy of their own home, if something was going to happen, it would happen.

15:13 Typically that's where they do it do their perpetrating. I mean, we always talk about, you know, even on this podcast about the whole fact that the first person you think of who's perpetrated a crime against a woman is typically in the household with. Their intimate. Partner, there's someone that they know well, yeah. You know, so this this is a little bit out-of-the-box on that, that he took it outside the family home. But obviously it was that whole, you know, oh, no, you can't do that in your family life.

15:35 You can't do that at home. I don't want my kids seeing what I saw. But it's like if I still had it in me, I have to do it somewhere else. I have to get it out. Yeah. And so he's taking it out elsewhere, which I have no empathy for him in that. Oh, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Just to give a little bit of context as well to Boston at the time, this was around the time that JFK was murdered and he was a Bostonian. Yes, By the way, I love the Boston Oh my God sent. But I literally have had it in my brain like I'm bad at this.

16:02 So my brain has literally had a Boston accent the entire last two weeks do. You do you then try and speak it and you can't do it. Yeah, I'm just, I suck at it like, you know. In my head I can hear it, but then I try and say it and I'm like, oh, it does not come out like that. At all. Oh no. Because every, every podcast, everything I've listened to, every documentary I've watched, everything I've read. Boston accent. I know, right? But then so yeah, this is completely an aside, total tangent here, but there's a movie that Ben Affleck was in and he had to have a Boston accent.

16:38 Wasn't it goodwill hunting? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And apparently he worked with a dialect coach for, like, 12 months to try and get this Boston accent. And then he had to. He was like, I couldn't break it because as soon as I broke it, yeah, I couldn't then get it back. Yeah. So he lived for, I mean, you know, a bit of method acting, I guess. But I'm like, well, if it's good enough for Ben Affleck, maybe maybe we should give some dialect coaching a go, Meg. Oh. Man, all I can do at a Boston accent it's had.

17:07 Yeah. It's had. It's all really had Don't come at me. Oh no, we're gonna get some haters. Totally. Ohh man, no. Honestly though, like I know people always say I think the Australian accent so like a sexy or whatever and I'm like ohh, you do that, but I find a Boston. Accent. Yeah, it's nice. I don't hate it, no. I do not hate it. Yeah, so JFK was murdered around this time and it had a massive impact on Boston, Boston people. Really took it. They really took it really, really hard. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

17:39 So that just gives it a little bit of, you know, where, where the city was at in the era. Yeah, that this was sort of set in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I guess we should flag there a little bit like we're saying, you know, Albert de Silva is like known as to being the Boston Strangler. However, there are question marks, so we will get to that. Yeah, that's it. There's, there's question marks around it. And I think you've already alluded to the fact that there was not a lot of forensic evidence collected and there was not a lot of things that these days we can then use to prove that he committed these murders.

18:12 Yeah. So he was actually, well, I guess do you want to start off with why he was originally imprisoned? Yeah, yeah. So basically he was actually imprisoned for a completely separate, a separate reason. So a little bit of I guess we'll go, I'll go back a little bit. There's a particular police officer named Phil Donnell. Oh, God, I'm going to ruin his name. Dinnetelle. Dinnetelle. Yeah, Dinnetelle. And this he he was an incredible detective. He was family was all police officers. But yeah, he, he sounds like he was a real determined detective to the point where he when he started his career, he was he was so determined to make it through and make it to detective as a young cop that he was told he had to go down on the street and they need to to arrest a purse snatcher.

19:05 That was, you know, really terrorizing the community. And so he went down and cross dressed with another cop and they ended up arresting these purse snatches by doing this cross dressing and standing there with their purses. And then, you know, and then the purse snatcher would come and take the that and grab their purse and he'd bolt run off them and tackle them to the ground and and get them. So he was incredible at his job. He was really, really, he was out there to get the baddies, you know.

19:29 Yeah, I think one another one was he him and one other cops. So just the two of them. There was a group gang of about 5:00 or so young sort of teenager, like older teenager kind of kids that were really terrorizing community and they so these two cops went and, and they actually tackled and beat up these 5 gang members and arrested them and got them off the streets like. So heard that. One, yeah, he was. He was a pretty incredible cop. Like really wanted to the right. He wanted the baddies off the street.

19:57 Yeah, so he got old fashioned. Good old fashioned police work sort of stuff. Yeah. And so he obviously built his way up to detective. But this is the case the Boston Strangler that he was handed that really got him in his career. Like he this really annoyed him that he couldn't find who it was that was that that was perpetrating these horrific crimes. I mean, no women was were scared in Boston. So there was. 13 women over about 20 months, yeah, attributed to the Boston known as the Boston Strangler now.

20:24 Yeah, so he, you know, and women were getting angry with the police for not having taken someone off the street. So it actually got to a point where the the murders had occurred and he was still trying to find out who this who it was after they'd already ranked up 11 or so at this point. And he actually had a heart attack. He was that stressed in his job and everything. He had a heart attack and was put in hospital. And whilst he was in hospital, he happened to be put into the hospital where one of the, the, the victims, Sophie Clark used to work.

20:54 And whilst he was in hospital, he was, he's thought, I'm going to keep working on this case. And so didn't let him, didn't slow him down at all. But he was, as he was working on the case, the nurses were coming in and, you know, checking on him and everything. And he would ask the nurses, hey, did you know Sophie Clark? You know, because she worked here and they would freak out, they would absolutely freak out at this idea of Sophie Clark and what happened to her. And after a number of times, he ended up getting a phone call in the hospital from someone who let him know, stop asking the nurses about Sophie because Albert de Silvo raped one of the nurses.

21:26 And they're terrified that he's going to come and get them, that you've got to stop talking about Sylvie Clark. They relate that to her to him, and you've got to stop. And he was like, whoa, who's that name I haven't heard of? And they had looked at thousands of people in, you know, for this case. So that was that was a new name to him. He was like, well, I'll love a new name and need someone chase him down and see who he is. And it turned out at this point in time, he was already arrested and in prison for other rapes.

21:54 So that kind of lined up that this could potentially be him. But his boss said drop it. It's not Elbert de Silva because he was in prison for the two years of the Boston Strangler murders. That's why we haven't looked at him. He was, he was in jail. So, so Phil D'antele went and did the the legwork, though. He was like, I'm not dropping this. I'm not listening to just being told that he was in jail because this is not a computer system where you can just type in someone's name and go, oh, that's where he was.

22:20 He was in prison at the time. It was all rooms filled with files. You know, he had to go along and find the file of Albert de Silva and pull it all out. Went through it, going through who this guy was. You know, the fact that he'd been arrested for, for these other rapes was all in there. That's all great. And then he found, finally, that he was not in jail in 1962 through to 1964. He was, in fact, released early. Yeah, so I think he originally had, was it like an 18 month sentence and he was out in five months or something?

22:50 It was something ridiculous. So good behaviour. Yes, because he was, because he was so well behaved, because he only perpetrated when he was raping these women. Yeah, at this point was just rape. Yeah. So what he would do is he would pose as a like a repair man. Yep. So a lot of the women attested to the fact that he was wearing these like green work pants overall. Sort. Of outfits, Yeah. And he'd knock on the door and say, oh, the Superintendent of the building asked me to come and paint your wall or asked me to fix your tap or whatever.

23:22 And he'd come in and he would, you know, obviously then perpetrate crimes against these women. Another thing that he would do is he would knock. He would follow women. So follows what he would, I guess, assume to be single women. He'd follow them to their house, knock on their door, and he'd be like, oh, I'm a model scout, model agent scout. I need to measure you up and see whether you're appropriate for, like, one of our campaigns, and I can get you a modelling gig. And he would literally, like, touch them up while he was measuring their thighs, and he'd make them put leotards or swimsuits on so that he could really get up there.

24:00 And they said he touched everything. Yeah. So that's kind of how the crimes started. He when he was doing that, he was known as the measuring man. Yep. And then the. Repairman was the green the. Green Man, all these names. I know. But so it was for those crimes. I mean, I say they're lesser. I mean, they're lesser crimes in that. OK, yes, he didn't murder them, but he's certainly sexually assaulted all of these women. Yeah. And he ended up going to prison for that. And there were witnesses to those crimes too.

24:28 So that was there was he was able to be identified because obviously these women survived those things. So he was able to be identified. He definitely did those crimes. There is no. And he thoughts about that, he confessed to that as well. I mean, not that we'll get to the fact whether his confessions mean anything or not, but he confessed to them. There was one incident I heard of a woman who she really quick thinker. He'd knocked on her door and this was one of the repair the Green Man sort of incidents.

24:54 And he came inside and she said she just got like this really weird feeling. And so she was like, oh, I'm just going to go and get my husband. He's sleeping in the room next door. And with that, Albert left the building but went across the hall and then perpetrated a sexual assault on the neighbour. When he was ready and raring to go. There was nothing going to stop him. No, you know, obviously he's trying to lessen the impact if there was a male in the house. But you know, even even still, he was just relentless.

25:21 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So, so he was imprisoned for these Green Man and measuring, measuring man crimes. And so. Yeah. Phil Denatale pinned him and kind of went right. It's possible he is the culprit of the Boston Strangler murders, too. I mean it sort of fitted as well in that. Respect. So I think he got out of prison less than a month before the 1st Boston Strangler murder. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So the timing really did match up. And yeah, it was just kind of all the planets kind of aligned.

25:57 And thank God Phil Di Natale did what he did and was as dogged as he was because it meant the end of what was an absolutely horror 20 odd months in Boston Women were scared thing. You know, there was so much going on that you know, they were scared to be alone and walking home. And all of the crimes of the Boston Strangler were committed on single women. The thing that I find interesting about it is there was no, no particular look to the women. There's no particular age to the women. Yeah, You know, they were black women.

26:33 The youngest was 19. The eldest was 85. Yeah, that's. Where? It's a question mark begin though, isn't it? Well, it it does. Yeah, it does. So he wasn't in prison in 1962? Yes, for those Green Man crimes, that was what he was in prison for when Phil Donatelli put it all together and went I think he's. The Oh, you're absolutely. Right. So he was in prison originally when, when they went, Oh no, he was in jail, It couldn't have been him, but he got out early. He was in in prison for, again, further other crim crimes that he had perpetrated.

27:10 So when Phil Donatelli had gone, I think he's our bloke. By that point he was already in prison. No, he wasn't actually in prison. He was in Bridgewater State Hospital. So he they basically had determined that he was insane already and that when they were assessing him for that and so that he could maybe not be put on trial for his case, his his crimes, he would basically claim insanity. Yeah. So the diagnosis, so he was 33 years old at this time, and his diagnosis was sociopathic personality disorder marked by sexual deviation.

27:45 Yeah, yeah. And so that's what he was in. Like this was the diagnosis in Bridgewater at the time, which was a basically a prison hospital. So his cellmate at Bridgewater was a guy by the name of George NASA. Now he's an interesting character. Isn't he? So George, NASA was also a criminal, criminally insane, criminally insane. So he was linked to the mob. He was actually kind of their their go to man for all violence and murder that they needed. He, when he was arrested himself in his house, they found police uniforms, doctor's uniforms, repairman uniforms, things that maybe if he wore a woman, might allow that person into their home without too much question.

28:40 So that's interesting. He also lived at the time in the South end of Boston, which is exactly in the middle of where all of the Boston Strangler women were. Yeah. Killed. Yeah. So quite in the zone that of all those sorts of things going on. So this man in some ways had some characteristics, etcetera, that could also put him on the radar for being the Boston Strangler. And so these two men end up in a cell together. And George had a very interesting lawyer named F Lee Bailey, which we may remember that he was one of the many lawyers that OJ Simpson also used.

29:16 He was a very famous lawyer in the States. He's written a really great book called The Defense Never Rests. Worth a read. Yeah. So he he was his lawyer and he was like, there seems to have been a bit of a push from George to to Albert de Salvo to confess to the Boston's triangular murders to, to basically the idea was that they could then make some money out of. This. Yeah, Because there was a reward out. Yeah, because the because the public was so concerned about this. As we were saying, it's the first serial killer case known really within the United States.

29:51 Families, women were terrified. So the state decided to or the city, sorry, decided to put up a reward for any information that would lead to the capture of the Boston Strangler or the confession or whatever the conviction of the Boston Strangler. Yeah. So George decided he might like to tuck into that little nest egg. Yeah. And you know, I think he was fairly reward motivated in. That and it wasn't. It was very much noted in many places where I was looking that he was an incredibly intelligent man.

30:21 Yes, very intelligent man and he knew that Albert de Silva was a family man and very strongly a family man. So he was able to manipulate a little bit of on that. And he encouraged Albert at the point, saying that you're going to jail for the rest of your life no matter what, but based on these rapes that you've committed, you're in jail for the rest of your life. Which ended up being true. So you fought your poor family are going to be left high and dry without you. Now, if we claim this money like and split it sort of thing like by you confessing, that'll set you, your family up and make sure that they're all taken care of.

30:54 So there's I'm just planting a seed that maybe, maybe George NASA was the Boston Strangler. So I think the whole thing is that perhaps he's given Albert enough information that Albert's able to then use in a confession and and things that only the murderer would know. When, when, when Albert's confessed to these murders. Yeah. But then, you know, more things come to light a little bit later on that makes us know that, you know, Albert actually was involved. He was. Involved. We don't know to what extent and whether every single one of these 13 motors was actually attributable to Albert, but you know, that remains to be seen.

31:40 I, I definitely think that George, there's too much coincidence for me to think that George wasn't involved in some way in, in some of these murders. And he knew things as well. And I know they they would talk back and forth, but he knew things that Albert didn't necessarily know about certain murders and, you know, putting it all together crazy. Crazy. It would already been out in the media and by the police connecting kind of going now. Is there one person perpetrating these crimes? Because there was certainly there was absolute copycats as well that the cops had found that there were murders where like they'd arrive at the scene and it would have that would have that signature of which was a piece of the woman's clothing tied around their neck, usually a nylon stocking or a scarf or something and tied in a particular bow which was released in the media.

32:35 So people knew that that was a signature of this, these crimes. But there was certainly murders where, oh, there was woman's been shot and then a a bow's been tied around her neck to try and, you know, cover it up to be like, oh, it must be another one of these Boston Strangler murders. Oh, no, it was her husband. Yeah. You know, there was certainly murders around the city that there was, you know, no, that's not the Boston Strangler of that. So they're certainly not on the this list that we talk of like 11 to 13 absolutely murders that attributed to the Boston Strangler.

33:01 They were able to eliminate those as being attributed to that though those crimes very easily. Yeah. But then are there certain, are there certain ones on this list that we have of attributing to the Boston Strangler that maybe also could be more than one person committing these crimes? Yeah, I think there's enough difference in MO to to make that really likely. Yeah. So an FBI profiler much, much later. So this is I think in the might have even been in the early 2000s, this FBI profiler looked at all of the crimes in the case notes and they came out and basically said you're putting together so many different patterns that it's inconceivable behaviourally that all of these actions could fit one individual.

33:48 Yeah. And so, you know, if you're looking at one person committing all these crimes, like there were, there were certain murders where a broom handle had been used to sexually assault the victim and then in other cases that wasn't. Yeah, what happened? It was actually the first five murders who were all older women. So the first, Anna Slesser, was 55, and then Mary Mullen was 85. Nina Nichols was 68, followed by Helen Blake, who was 65. Ida Erga was 75, and then Jane Sullivan was 67. So all seven of those murders were older women, white, and they had been sexually assaulted with objects.

34:40 That's right. They were not raped and penetrated with a penis. There was no semen left in the scene. So it's not until you get to Sophie Clark, yes, who was 20 years of age, a black woman, and she was raped, not assaulted with a foreign object. So it there's a real change in MO in that one. Or is that an escalation? Yes. And that's so and that's that's where I think you know, they don't, they don't know. No, it's, but there is a definite change in shifting absolutely. And so from then on it kind of jumps around a little bit with each case.

35:18 And that there are then multiple ages and different ethnicities in terms of the victims for the remaining, however, many 567 victims, 6 victims, culminating in his youngest victim of 19 years of age, Mary Ann Sullivan. This one's a really interesting one because Mary Anne's family, so the podcast that I listened to, the one that was sort of aligning with the movie, they actually interviewed Mary's, Mary Anne's family, yes. Yep. In it actually, maybe that was The Stranglers podcast, was it? There's a spot of there's a Her nephew has written a book who about it all, and he's been quite an activist in trying to solve it.

36:05 Yeah, he's the one I heard interviewed. Yeah. And yeah, he, he wanted this crime solved. So they were working with the Bostonian police and they ended up getting familial DNA, so from de Salvo's nephew and. Ask how they got that because I think they just followed him and pinched his drink water bottle or something. Did they? I believe so why wouldn't they just ask him for? It, I don't know, maybe they were too worried that he'd say no, I think. You could still follow him and pinch something. Yeah, I think you should ask first.

36:37 Yeah, probably. I don't know whether they did or not, actually. Maybe they did. Who knows? It just got me. I was like, why wouldn't you just approach him? Yeah. But they didn't anyway. So they they've then basically with the familial DNA and Mary Sullivan's DNA and they had semen that was able to be collected from Mary Sullivan's body at the. Time on a blanket, I think from it, from the same, yeah, Yep. Yep. And they put it together and it was like 99.99%. But what they decided to then do was exhume de Salvo's body.

37:10 Yeah, because by this stage he was dead. We'll get to that in a second. And to confirm like literally without one shadow of a doubt, I mean, it wasn't one, It can never be 100%, but it was like 99 point. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no. I think it was one to something 1 to 200 and million, 50 million or something. Yeah, It was like, yeah, well, this is the guy. There's no. Yeah, There's no chance that it wasn't. Yeah. So we know for sure, yes, that he definitely killed and raped Mary Sullivan.

37:39 Yes. Mary Ann Sullivan. Yeah. What? We don't know. Is whether he perpetrated the other 12 odd? Yeah, 12 or 10 depending. On yeah, depending on what you. What you believe and what, Yeah, the crimes. So it's, it's still up there. It's still open as to whether he's, you know, committed the the other crimes. Yeah, so because there was some, there's some interesting ones on the the list of the the victims. Even like Sophie Clark, there's a question over whether or not she was one of the Boston Strangler victims because she was seeing a guy by the name of Bob Payton at the time of her murder, who was a very odd guy.

38:19 He had taken her out. I don't think she was that keen on him. And he had take he had she sorry, she was had a she was had a fiance. So this guy had taken her out just, you know, and she'd gone as a friend kind of thing this, but this guy was very keen on her, this Bob Payton and everyone was like, he's such a creep. He's real weird. And the police did question him, and he ended up failing 2 polygraphs. Now, not that you can submit that as evidence. So obviously he wasn't arrested, but there's definitely question marks over whether or not he committed that crime.

38:49 Yeah. Another one that is quite questionable is Patricia Bassett. Yeah. So she was 23 and her her murder took place on December 31, 1962. Now she was a young secretary working in a company and a guy name of the name of Jules Rothman was the vice president of the company and she was working as his sort of secretary at the time. He was meant to pick her up that morning and he went by and knocked on the door and she didn't answer. And so he went on to work. He got to work and felt a little bit guilty and was kind of like, she hasn't rocked up, where is she?

39:24 I'll go check on her. So he rocked up, got the janitor and asked him to help him get into the apartment. And from what the janitor said, he walked into the apartment, walked straight back out again and said quote, she's dead, she's sorry. I'll get it right. I'll find the exact quote so that I can say it correctly. Where are we? Yes, she's dead and there's stockings around her neck. OK, so that's what the janitor said. He said by just walking in and walking out again. And the janitor saw him do that,

39:58 turns out. Jules Ruffman was having an affair with Patricia Bessette and he had a wife and kids and it turned out that she had also was also one month pregnant. Oh, I didn't know that. Yes, and he knew that she was pregnant too, because he had been asking around some friends and colleagues around how he could get a legal abortion. Wow. So it was known that he knew. OK, so, but not only that, this, the difference of this death was that the way the body was placed. Yeah. So she was played at the other.

40:35 Many of the women were placed very not, not nicely at all, like quite exposed, all those sorts of things. Whereas this body was sort of tucked up into her bed almost. She had like pulled right up to the point where when that man walked in and walked out again, he would not have known that there were stockings around her neck. That's it. You couldn't see it, so it was the. 1:40 That I thought he didn't even walk in far enough that he would have been like, you couldn't have just walked a few steps into her, into her apartment and seen her.

41:03 So the, I guess the inference is that he already knew she was. He already knew that. She was dead and already knew that there were stockings around her. Neck. Exactly. So as and the. Fact that she was so covered yes I mean we've spoken about this on previous podcasts as well it suggests that somebody cared enough to do that and cover her up whereas. The other victims were not placed like that, opposite of that. Absolutely some. I mean, you can go. And have a look at crime scene photos they're in really, some of them are in really explicit positions.

41:33 And there is, there's no, there's nothing covering them. Like it's, it's absolutely horrific, awful, awful. So yeah, there's some question marks those. 2 stand out for me out of that list of the victims as to being whether or not they're probably the least that I would attribute to the Boston Strangler. Agreed. Agreed. But there's also then that shift. Of younger when women coming into it later, when originally it was all older women. Yeah. And that's where I kind of go I, I feel like maybe there was two people.

42:00 I mean, if we eliminate those two entirely out of the list like that, they were so go back potentially. Yep. And then the other, the rest of them, I sort of go. I think the older women may have been, say, George NASA. Yeah. And then the younger ones might have been Albert de Selvo. Yeah. Like 'cause we know we know he differently. At least killed, At least killed the 19 year old Marianne. Yeah. So, yeah, it's it's it's an interesting one. Yeah. Both had opportunity, both were in the right place at the right time.

42:31 Both have pasts that would be suggestive of something like this and escalations that would potentially be leading to this. I mean, George, NASA had committed murders, rapes, he burglaries, he'd assaulted people like he had a rap sheet, you know, that would absolutely potentially point to this as well. Yeah. So what what actually happened was so when Albert and George were in the prison hospital together, they've decided then that Albert's going to confess. I mean, let's let's go down. That's that pathway.

43:05 Albert has then confessed to to these Boston Strangler murders and the police are asking him questions. So they've obviously released a lot of information to the the public and to the media. We'll get to that in a minute because that's a really fascinating sign and story what you've got on that. Yeah. But. So that, yeah, they've released certain information, but they haven't released everything. So they're wanting information that only the killer would know. Yeah. And Albert fits the bill in some ways, like he's got some information certainly about types of objects that we use to penetrate the last few victims positioning of like the bed, for example, in a room, like you're like, all right, describe the room.

43:51 You walk into it, what's where, what's sitting where, where is the furniture? There's suggestion that the police fed him some of that information. Have you you listened to some of the? Tapes yeah, I I agree with that take on it I mean there's they say this sort of broke protocol in how you interview somebody they they would definitely suggest if. They were like, so the couch, this one over here, was that the couch? Yeah. And he's like, oh, yeah, yeah, that was the couch. Oh, yeah. No, it was on that wall, apparently.

44:13 I think there was the one particular. Police officer, they wanted to interrogate him, who was so damn good at this. And he would have been far better. But they ended up with some guy who was a bit bit shit and he balls it up. Really. I mean, they wanted they wanted him to. They wanted to believe that this guy was the guy. I do. I really think that in some ways, for sure. Yeah. They, the questions really led him. Yeah, he was definitely LED down the path. Yeah, although he did also have and volunteer information that only the killer would know or the killer had fed to him in their prison cell or you have a photographic memory and.

44:49 You've seen a photo in the news, but it's not been shown to you in that that room? No, no. So. Marianne Sullivan's nephew, Yep, in in investigating this and now Phil Di Natale's sons, who have kind of taken this on for themselves as well. Yes, they both say that there were things that were they know categorically were never released to the media. Yes. That he knew. Oh yeah, yeah. No, I agree that there was the. Photos and like like. And then that which what they were then able, the police were then able to back up with the crime scene.

45:19 One particular one was that under. Like under a a chair was a packet of Marlboro cigarette cigarettes. And they did ask him in the interview, was there something under the chair? Like. So that's leading as it. There's something there. Yeah. But what, what is it? And he said, and he said, oh, there was a packet of Marlboro cigarettes, but I don't drink. I don't smoke that brand. So I pushed him under the chair. And there was another one in that same scene where he had, he knew that she was on her period.

45:43 Yeah. And he had said, and they'd said there was something else next to the body. And he goes, oh, yeah, tampon. I'd pull that out first. So, yeah, just awful. But he so he knew though there was particularly those two bits of evidence they said only the killer would know. Yeah. So there was another thing that I thought was. Really interesting. So the photos were in black and white in like the crime scene photos. And in one of his accounts, I can't remember which murder it was, but he was like, oh, the couch was brown.

46:13 Yeah, I think blue. Oh, blue, blue, blue. Yeah, the couch was blue. The couch was blue, but. The victim in her statement had said that her couch was brown, brown. And when they actually, so they couldn't tell by the photos, they actually went back and had a look at the couch and turns out he was right. She she'd gotten the couch the colour of her couch, right. Yeah. So. You know, there were things like that that kind of really did add up to him going, oh, OK, well, all these things kind of check out, but there were certain things he got really wrong.

46:41 Too. This is the thing, Yeah. So there were certain. Crime scenes where he nailed every aspect of it. There were other crime scenes where he didn't. Yeah, he had the positioning of furniture in the wrong space. Well, he actually said that the first. Those first. Victims where we said that they were weren't raped, they were sexually assaulted with objects, he said. He had raped them and that's not what. That. So the cops knew that that's not what had happened in those scenes. So that was a real to me.

47:09 That's where there's that. I think he can be linked to certain ones, but there's certain ones he can't be and there. So are you basing that? On the fact that there was no semen found, there was, yeah, no semen found. And they were then they could tell by what was. Yeah, how they've been. How did they tell they not? Well, I don't. Know like I'm just thinking if he hadn't, like what if he'd raped them but not actually to the point where but he never mentioned that he used objects. With them at all right, like he never he that was never brought up in his statements like although in the statement.

47:43 About Mary Ann Sullivan. He did confess to using a broom. That's right. So yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah. That makes sense. Those first ones he never he. Did not know that there were. He was never mentioned that there were objects used in those ones. Yeah, OK. He only ever said that they were, that he raped them. Yeah. Yeah. So that. That's where I kind of go. Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah, there's a suggestion that perhaps he had multiple personalities and like one personality committed the rapes for the older women, another personality committed the rapes for the younger women.

48:13 Some one of them did the sexual assaulting with an object. The other one, that whole thing with the parents freaks me out like of like because. The one personality doesn't know what the other personality did. Is that, is that. Well, that's, that's the. Yeah, that's the. Influence, yeah, like that, that whole like. But then obviously. If that was the case, he's had something in him because there was enough similarity between all of these Yeah, crimes. To link them in. Some way? That's just, you know, one.

48:41 Reason one thing that I've heard, yeah, whether it's true or not, I'm getting back to the reporting of this, though. So if you watch them, the latest movie that we were talking about with Keira Knightley, it's centered around The Record American newspaper, which was the first newspaper to kind of put all of these crimes together and come up with a name. Yeah. And two female journalists were at the absolute cutting edge of this. And you go girls, because in the 60s, you can imagine. So in The Newsroom, they were doing lifestyle and reviewing toasters and, you know, products and like, look, I look, I got my hair cut in this certain way.

49:21 And the two journalists named Loretta McLaughlin and Jean Cole, they were dogged. They did not give up. And they were incredible women. And they're the ones they, I think they ended up writing, like in the hundreds of columns about the Boston Strangler, but they're the ones who put it together. Yeah. And actually named the Boston Strangler. Yeah. The Boston Strangler. Yeah. I think there was other news. Articles that were using the Mad Strangler yeah, lots of different things, although the silk the.

49:53 Silk scarf strangler or something like that. Boston Strangle's way better name, yeah. Absolutely. But they were, you know, career women in a time with children. Yeah. In a time where, you know, that just didn't happen. Yeah. It just didn't happen. But, you know, they were incredible. Loretta McLaughlin then went on to the Boston Globe, and she was editor in chief of the Boston Globe by the end of her career. Wow, she's in. I believe she's recently passed away within the last few years. Yeah, but she lived into her 90s.

50:23 Just an incredible woman. But yes, so the movie really sort of centres around her and. And how she sort of how the story came about. It's a really, really cool. Yeah. Story. Yeah. The rest of the cases, I guess, aside from Mary Ann Sullivan, remain open to this day. Yeah, so because. Albert was never convicted of any of the any of the Boston Strangler made murders, even the one that we know he committed. Yeah, based on DNA, Mary Ann Sullivan. But yeah, because so he was in, as we said, he was actually in Bridgewater and he escaped.

51:00 So he ended up turning himself in. So he 24 hours later or something? He escaped with two other inmates. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and 24 hours later. Was like, oh, hi. Yeah. So then they didn't. Put him back into Bridgewater, then they put him into Walpole. So instead so, but he went. So then he was in jail, not in like in the the hospital. And I think it was six years later he was murdered. We still don't know who murdered him. So there's another little question mark. He was stabbed. To death in his cell.

51:34 I mean, back, back in the what would have been the 70s, there's no CCTV or anything like that within the prisons. And I guess don't ask, don't tell. Yeah. Like no one was gonna fess up to it or say that they saw anything. And but just to keep that question mark. Over all of it. So he had the day before his murder from the prison had rung his psychologist who he had worked extensively with a psychologist. I didn't think they were all like, let me at this brain. I wanna find out how this thing works.

52:02 He had this really close relationship with a psychologist and he had rung him the day before to say, and the guy had said, look, you know, if you want to speak to me, that's great. I'll come down tomorrow. And his words to the psychologist on the phone where I want to tell you the truth, he actually even said it is. Urgent. Yeah, he was really, really adamant. He. Needed to speak to him. Yeah. And so the the thought is that he was going to confess that the confession was false and that he wasn't the Boston Strangler of all the murders.

52:31 Potentially, yeah. And this is prior to anyone knowing that he definitely killed Mary Ann Sullivan because that was too early. But so at this point, he, like we. Yeah. The thought is that he was going to say something around whether or not he did or didn't do certain certain crimes. But yeah, he was murdered the very next day. So did NASA put a hit out on him because he was going to go. It's not me, it's George NASA. I mean what? What? What would George NASA have to gain? He was he was sentenced to life in prison as well, too.

53:03 Yeah, but I just. I don't know. I think it was that he, he's an interesting person. If you've watched any of the interviews with him, he's an interesting bloke for sure. Yeah. So whether or not I mean, different criminals, you know, some people, some of them want to own up to everything and confess to things they didn't do. Others never want to be caught. Maybe it's more a matter of different motivation. Something. Absolutely. And being known. For certain things, just really quickly going back to.

53:27 The taped recordings that you can listen to and watch Do you find Albert de Silvo's voice doesn't match his physical stature? Not at. All.

53:39 I, I, I look at you a short man. I know, yeah. Yeah, but even still, like. His voice is really a right pitch that. It. Yeah. It's like, really like, it's really. Yeah, sort of juvenile, yeah. Yeah, I. Found that really fascinating. Oh, definitely. Yeah, yeah. No, I. Found him really, like, interesting. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So I think that kind of brings us to the end. There's not much more to say in conclusion to this. We'll never know now. No, he's dead. I mean. They've got his DNA in terms of, you know, exhuming the body like, so that obviously if anything changes in the future in terms of being able to test anything from previous crime scenes.

54:17 But there's just nothing they collected because there wasn't, they didn't, well, they didn't have the thought process of what might come at that point, you know, of DNA testing and things. It was just fortunate that they had Marianne Sullivan's DNA on the on the blanket. It wasn't like they collected it noticefully. No in that. Sense to go, hey, we might be. Able to do something like this with this in the future. So I mean really, I don't know that we're ever there's no, there's no other physical.

54:40 Evidence that's been collected that they can test against, no. So I think you know, other than George Nasser, who? I well God is he, so he's he died in. 2017, right? Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. So he's gone as well. So yeah, there's just. I just don't think we're ever gonna. Know the answer, but we're really interested to see what other people think. So please let us know and let's hope that we have. I mean, I know. Definitely. I want more cops like Phil Donna Talley, but I know he's both. I think his sons are all cops as well and stuff.

55:10 So too. I don't know how many sons he's got, but I. Know two yeah yeah. So I'm. Yeah, I hope that they, well, I by all accounts they sent to you as good as their dad and as as gung ho as him to find the baddie so dogged like, Yeah. In order to be an investigator, you, you just couldn't let it go. And I don't think he ever let it go, I think, to be honest, I think. He he died, he he got, he became quite ill and he did pass away. Phil Dantele before it was known, yeah. That he was right and that Elbert Desalvo certainly was involved in the Boston strangling murders.

55:40 But. Yeah, it's. I I know his son's all, you know, kind of, you know, feel vindicated. Yeah. Free for their dad. That that that he was. He was on the right track, that's for sure. So. Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Let us know what you think. Yes. And. As we say every week, please like and subscribe to our to our channel. So hit the follow button on whatever podcast app you're listening to. Really, really helps us get our podcast out tomorrow. More people and that it's been steadily growing. So thank you to everybody who's done that so far.

56:14 We feel really like it's just great to see that it's growing every week and it it really motivates us to keep going and keep keep the episodes coming along. Next week, we will be releasing an episode about Karen Ristevski. So this is a really that it's a really, oh, it's a horrible situation. Yeah. But stay tuned for that next week. Thank you. Thank you for joining us again. That is for sure. Stay curious, crime besties. Bye.