Episode 16 - Gypsy Rose Blanchard

0:15 Welcome back for our What is this?

0:17 Oh my God, is this our 15th episode of Two Crime Besties?

0:21 Yay. Hi, Emma.

0:23 Hey, Meg, how's it going? Good, good.

0:25 How are you? Very good.

0:26 I'm very excited to be here for episode 15.

0:29 I feel like it was only days ago that we were recording like

0:33 episode one and two, and now we're in episode 15.

0:37 So that's really exciting, yeah. It's, yeah, it's rolling along

0:40 so smoothly now. It's like just this is our

0:42 routine and this is what we do. And I love it.

0:44 Me. Too me.

0:45 Too. Yeah, Fridays are my favorite

0:47 day of the week. Me too.

0:48 That's our record day. Tuesdays are my second favorite

0:50 day 'cause we really sound new one.

0:52 So stay tuned. Yeah, every Tuesday we release

0:55 our new episode, and yeah, this one's gonna be, this one's gonna

1:00 be a good one. But today we're talking about

1:02 Gypsy Rd. Rose Blanchard, MM HMM and DD

1:05 Blanchard. So I think it's probably the

1:07 most famous Munchausen by Proxy case.

1:10 Yeah, you know. Known around the world, Yep.

1:13 Yeah. But before we get into that, how

1:14 has your week been? Yeah, pretty good, pretty good.

1:18 We've had a yeah, I've had sick kids this week and stuff like

1:21 that. So it's been the juggle, you

1:22 know, managing work and kids and stuff like that.

1:25 But yeah, no, it's not a bad week.

1:26 We had. Yeah.

1:28 What about you? What have you been up to?

1:29 You had a cool weekend last weekend, though.

1:32 We did, and we haven't caught up on it yet.

1:34 No. So this was part of our media

1:36 blackout just so that we could have something to talk about on

1:38 the podcast. So for my birthday this year, my

1:42 husband and kids gave me a picnic treasure hunt.

1:46 It's such a great concept. But basically there's a company

1:49 that is pretty much only one company, I think really around

1:52 their traps that do it. It's called Amazing Co Yeah,

1:55 we're not sponsored by them, but hell is they wanted to sponsor

1:58 us. Please do.

2:00 We had such a great, such a great day.

2:03 So the premise behind it is you, you, you nominate the day that

2:07 you're going to do the picnic and the region.

2:09 So the, the company, we're based in Victoria, in Australia and

2:14 there are lots of different regions around the state where

2:17 you can do it. And we chose to do it in the

2:18 Macedon Ranges because that's not a place that we go to very

2:21 often. And so it starts off the night

2:26 before and they send you a message and you, you get a clue

2:30 and you've got to solve the clues so that you can get that

2:33 you're like the first destination.

2:35 Yeah. And it tells you roughly like a

2:37 time frame in which to be there. So we we trot on off and the

2:41 first stop for us was Trentham. And we picked up like a little

2:45 picnic basket thing with some cheese and biscuits and some

2:49 olives, I think. And then we you get your next

2:52 clue. You have to solve that.

2:54 Pressure how? What if you don't solve the

2:56 clue? It's actually like if you don't

2:58 solve the clue, there's something.

2:59 Wrong. Oh, OK, cool.

3:00 All right. No, no worries.

3:02 I might struggle, that's all. No, no, no, no.

3:04 The. Kids were able to sort that out

3:06 for. Us.

3:07 Oh wow, that's really. Cool.

3:08 And they thought it, they thought it was great that they

3:10 they could solve it. Yeah.

3:12 And then every place you go to, you pick up another, you know, a

3:16 few more bits and pieces for your picnic.

3:18 Yeah. One of the stops that we stopped

3:20 at was a a spot just for the kids.

3:22 It was this really cool Cafe in Kindon.

3:24 Yeah. And they made-up like a little

3:26 kids pack for the kids. And yeah, it was really well

3:28 done. Everywhere we went knew we were

3:30 coming. And so it was really well

3:32 organised. And then it ended in a picnic at

3:35 Hanging Rock. Oh, lovely.

3:37 Yeah, there's another case for us.

3:38 Absolutely. That's why I said, well, I'm

3:40 here. I'll need to do a bit of

3:41 research for our next, for a potential future case.

3:45 But yeah, so it was really good fun, fantastic day out.

3:47 Highly recommend it. Well done Peter, nice choice.

3:51 Great job I was. I was so stoked when they gave

3:53 me that for my birthday. Yeah, what?

3:55 A lovely day out and it was a full day.

3:57 We were gone from sort of 8:30 or so in the morning and home at

4:00 4:30. So it was a really great day out

4:02 and. I'm guessing you probably tried

4:03 some different things foods wise instead of the from the region

4:05 that you otherwise wouldn't even know to go and find.

4:07 So that's really got some really.

4:08 Nice breads and I was just really, really fun.

4:11 And the weather was beautiful too.

4:12 I think that helped. That helps for sure, especially

4:14 this time of year. You don't know what you're gonna

4:15 get sometimes, but yeah. Oh, that's so nice.

4:18 Yeah, so lots and lots of fun. And the kids loved it too.

4:21 I thought I was a bit not worried, but I thought maybe

4:24 they'd get a bit bored, but they didn't.

4:26 There was enough for them to to keep them entertained, and

4:29 enough stops along the way that it.

4:31 Was really good. Family Day out it was.

4:33 Really nice. Wholesome of you all.

4:35 Oh, I know, so wholesome. That's us in a nutshell.

4:39 Well, some weekends. Oh, that's really cool.

4:45 Oh well, I'll have to check that out.

4:47 Properly, definitely give it a go.

4:48 Yeah, we'll have to do another one, like a girls one or

4:50 something. One weekend in another.

4:51 Region, Yeah, yeah, Get some wine.

4:53 So I was. Going to say, well, top of the

4:55 list. Please, there was a winery stuff

4:57 in there and we did get a bottle of wine, so that wasn't the

5:00 worst thing ever. All right.

5:03 Should we get into today's case? Let's well, first of all, I was

5:06 going to say before we get into the actual topic of the case,

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5:42 So yeah, absolutely. Definitely no thank you

5:45 everybody. But let's get into this case.

5:47 It is it's a real good. It's a it's a juicy one for

5:50 sure. And it's certainly like one

5:52 that's relevant right now, even to this point.

5:55 So we can start right back to the beginning.

5:57 But I don't even almost don't know where to start with this

5:58 because I feel like we wherever we start, there's kind of like a

6:02 preamble to that one as well. So everyone sort of has this

6:04 background history that kind of links to each other.

6:07 I feel like we should start with Gypsy's birth and then kind of

6:10 we can. Go back and forward.

6:13 Yeah, I feel like that's probably the best, yeah.

6:15 Yeah, well, Gypsy was born on the 27th of July in 1991.

6:20 Her parents were Claudine Blanchard and Rod Blanchard.

6:26 They'd been married. Well, so at the time of Gypsy's

6:30 birth they'd been within the pregnancy.

6:33 They'd been married and divorced.

6:35 So Didi found out she was pregnant.

6:38 Rod being a good Christian, well, he was a child.

6:43 Actually, he was. 17 years old when Didi fell pregnant, 18

6:47 years old when they got married and 18 years old by the time

6:52 still 18 years old when Gypsy was born.

6:54 They got married because Dee Dee was pregnant, Rod says.

7:00 He was never really in love with her.

7:02 I think Dee Dee was hugely in love with him, infatuated with

7:06 him. Yeah, but they got divorced

7:08 about a month. Was it before Gypsy was born?

7:11 Not very long. There was so there was an age

7:13 gap too, like she was 24, Claudine at the time to Rod to

7:17 Ken's Ron. Sorry, Rod, Rod, let's get the

7:20 names right. There's seven names here.

7:23 Rod, He was only 17 to her 24. I believe she might have lied

7:27 about of age, her age and said she was about 21.

7:29 She did, which I mean, this day and age, if this was now we all

7:33 have a bit of an uproar of like this 17 year old marrying a

7:37 woman, you know, like in the age gap between them.

7:39 Like, I mean, I don't know if that was I've spoken about at

7:41 the time or what. But I probably not.

7:43 There was nothing controversial about it, I don't think.

7:45 I think because of the fact that they were in this Christian

7:48 community and she was pregnant, You just that was what you did.

7:52 You had to get married. There was no other option.

7:55 Rod sort of saw obviously throughout those few months that

7:58 they were married that this wasn't for him.

8:00 And he there are a lot of interviews with him on the

8:04 Internet on YouTube. You can just Google them.

8:08 He's a lovely man. He's like, I have a real soft

8:11 spot for him. Every time I see him interviewed

8:13 or speaking about Gypsy and about Dee Dee even, I have a lot

8:18 of respect for him. Absolutely.

8:19 He's a good Southern man. Was they would say, I guess,

8:22 very gentle. Very.

8:23 Gentlemanly. Yeah, for sure.

8:25 They were married, they get divorced.

8:27 Gypsy's born. And I mean.

8:32 Things start pretty early on they.

8:33 Really do. Yeah, they really, really do.

8:36 Yeah. So from three months of age that

8:40 she was already DD was take. Oh, sorry.

8:42 Claudine went by the name DD. So we'll probably refer to her

8:45 as DD, I'm guessing throughout this.

8:47 So they feel the same. Everything I kept reading was

8:49 DD. Yeah.

8:50 So she went by the name DD. So she by about 3 months of age.

8:53 When Gypsy was three months of age, she was taking her to the

8:55 doctors, believing there was something wrong with her

8:56 sleeping, that she had sleep apnea and DD also.

9:01 She was also, previously to this, a nurse's assistant.

9:06 So she had some medical knowledge of sorts, I guess.

9:09 But so she believed there was something upset up, something

9:12 wrong with the sleeping patterns of date of, of, sorry, Gypsy.

9:16 But I mean, what 3 month old doesn't have like, you know,

9:19 issues with sleeping. They regress around that stage.

9:21 All these sorts of things go on. So she did go after the doctors,

9:24 and they all said there was nothing wrong, but DD was

9:27 convinced that there was sleep apnea happening.

9:29 Yeah, so. I, I guess as a doctor at that

9:33 point, you'd, and especially as the parent of a young child, you

9:38 have to advocate for your child. So if you say that there's

9:40 something going on, of course you're going to be pushing and

9:43 pushing and pushing for that. And I would, I would imagine

9:45 that the medical professionals, you know, they rely on parental

9:50 account of what's happening and parental, you know, parents

9:54 giving an accurate representation of what's

9:57 happening so that that can assist in their diagnosis.

10:00 I've got a perfect technology of that with like my own child at

10:03 about he was about 12 months old and jumped out of his high chair

10:08 and he hurt himself and I was beside myself and I could see

10:12 the way he landed. I 'cause I witnessed it happened

10:14 kind of thing. I could see how he landed was

10:16 very awkward and how much he was crying at the time.

10:19 And then by the time I got to the hospital, he wasn't crying.

10:23 And they, they just said to me, you know, I don't think he's

10:25 broken anything. He's fine.

10:26 They checked. I was more worried about

10:26 concussion, to be really honest. But I'm like, no, but his hand,

10:29 he's not like crawling, like he's not putting any pressure on

10:31 it. Like, yeah, no, he's fine.

10:33 It's probably just a bit bruised, but you know, you know,

10:35 just a bit of a strain or something.

10:36 No worries. And I would like, can we just

10:38 X-ray it to be sure? And that they tried to fob me

10:40 off and like, no, no, no, he's fine.

10:41 Go home. And I would just prefer that if

10:43 we go home that we've had an X-ray and you've told me it's

10:45 fine than just walking out of here.

10:47 They ended up X raying it and lo and behold, it was broken.

10:50 So he'd broken his wrist. So the doctor actually said to

10:54 me at the time he goes, I've just learned a massive lesson to

10:56 listen to mum. He goes, I really should have

10:58 heard you and not fobbed you off.

11:00 Like he and I, I felt, you know, validated at that point that it

11:03 was broken. But holy crap, my 12 month old

11:05 now has a plastic cast on his arm.

11:06 And you feel like an awful parent.

11:09 But. But yeah, the doctors need to

11:11 listen to parents 'cause they know their kid the best.

11:13 Yeah, but sometimes I guess, and, and it is rare, but it

11:16 happens. Incredibly rare.

11:18 Yeah. That parents take that too far.

11:20 Yeah, yeah. And in this case, like Didi

11:23 absolutely had taken it too far the I guess the inferences And

11:29 look, we we are never going to know Didi's side of the story

11:35 from this, but from all accounts she was devastated that Rod had

11:41 left her. And I just wonder whether this

11:44 was a cry for attention right from the get go.

11:47 From everything I can gather, Rod wanted to be involved in

11:52 Gypsy's life. He was working, paying child

11:56 support. He wanted to be involved, but he

11:59 didn't want to be with Dee Dee. And I think that really upset

12:05 Dee Dee. She got attention right from the

12:08 get go at three months of age with Gypsy I, And I just wonder

12:12 whether that was the catalyst behind.

12:14 I mean, we'll go into DD's past and.

12:17 And there's definitely things in DD's past that that inform her

12:21 her behaviour around this time and then into the future.

12:24 I just wonder whether this was a catalyst that kind of really got

12:27 that going. Yeah.

12:28 Is that she wanted Rod's attention.

12:30 What do you think? Well.

12:31 Yeah, a little bit of that, but also then the other way.

12:33 I think she got attention for being a single mum too, because

12:36 she then wanted to really sort of give Gypsy the idea as she

12:40 got older that her dad didn't want any part of her life, even

12:43 though he he did and very, very clearly did.

12:45 He sent letters, he rang, he caught like he called regularly.

12:48 He would try to see her. He would.

12:50 He definitely had time with her. He ended up having his own,

12:52 another family and he's got daughter and a son from that

12:56 marriage, I believe. Yeah.

12:58 So they so so Gypsy had half siblings and so she would go and

13:03 spend time with them. But Dee Dee would tell Gypsy

13:07 that he wanted a son and you're you're not a son and so

13:12 therefore he doesn't really want you and.

13:13 That's why he left, yeah. And that's why he left.

13:15 That's what she that was always what she told Gypsy is the

13:17 story. So I think she kind of wanted

13:19 Gypsy to hate her dad or maybe equally hate him as much as she

13:22 did for leaving. Like I know it was maybe way her

13:24 way of getting that. Other stories about Rod as well,

13:27 saying that he once threw Gypsy across the room and she hit the

13:30 wall. Oh, God.

13:31 Yeah. And And Dee Dee like was adamant

13:35 that this had happened. And obviously now Gypsy knows

13:37 that that didn't happen. But she that was her truth as a

13:40 as a young, young girl, she thought her dad had abused her.

13:43 Yeah. But like Gypsy, I'm gonna get

13:45 these names all confused. Sorry.

13:46 Don't mind me, It must be Friday.

13:49 DD hid like letters and things from him for for to gypsy which

13:52 you know like and. She she said he never provided

13:55 support like Gypsy thought that he'd never contributed.

13:58 But he regular it's proven he regularly paid child support.

14:01 There wasn't a time when he didn't not he even paid more

14:03 than what he needed to in a lot of instances, especially around

14:07 Gypsy illnesses and and additional needs.

14:10 Yeah. Yeah.

14:12 Yeah. Crazy, isn't it?

14:13 Yeah. Should we talk a little bit

14:15 about DD's past? I think we.

14:16 Go back a bit here. Yeah.

14:18 And talk about were what's informing her behavior in terms

14:20 of these medical needs now for Gypsy that ramp up pretty

14:23 quickly from there. Yeah.

14:25 Yeah. So, So Dee Dee was born to Emma

14:28 and Claude Pitry, I think. I think that's it.

14:31 Petrie, say it, yeah. So she had an interesting life

14:34 herself. She was diagnosed with a heart

14:36 murmur at a young age. Yeah, she.

14:38 Was four, I think, when she was diagnosed with the murmur.

14:41 Yeah, so. Apparently she was basically her

14:43 mum overprotected her with this heart murmur and didn't allow

14:46 her to do much and kept her kind of wrapped up in cotton wool, I

14:49 guess because of this heart murmur.

14:51 So there's a little bit of maybe that rubbing off on her then

14:53 maybe in the future of like taking these illnesses a little

14:56 bit further than they needed to be.

14:59 But she's also a pageant girl and got a lot of attention for

15:02 that. From what?

15:03 From what the family members sort of say, they were very much

15:07 like Dee. Dee was a bit of a brat and was

15:10 quite rude and obnoxious and whether that was because she was

15:14 getting attention from pageants and things like that.

15:17 But she was quite an unusual sort of kid as she grew up.

15:20 And then that actually evolved into her doing things like doing

15:25 writing fraudulent checks and she maxed out her mum's credit

15:29 card after she died. But there's a lot of things that

15:32 went on with her in terms of her life and her.

15:35 So her dad and her mum split up and his her dad remarried and

15:40 she did not get along with her step mum and did not like her at

15:43 all. Now there is a few stories out

15:46 there around what what happened there and one that I sort of saw

15:49 pop up a few times was that she potentially poisoned her stepmom

15:55 with roundup slowly like giving her small amounts through.

15:58 Dosing her with Roundup. Yeah, and she did die.

16:01 And what I, I found it really hard to find information out,

16:04 but what I did find was that she died a very slow and painful

16:08 death. Yes, so was that and I it's

16:11 never been proven at all, but the sort of death she had could

16:16 have been due to micro dosing of Roundup or from what I could

16:20 kind of put things. Together.

16:21 I I feel the same way, Like everything that I looked at sort

16:24 of pointed towards that. There's also the conjecture

16:27 around the death of her biological mother and the

16:32 inference that so her mum was in a nursing home type of

16:36 situation, but I think it was more like an assisted living

16:38 facility. It wasn't a full nursing home.

16:40 Yeah, a full high care nursing home and Dee Dee would go and

16:46 care for her. Carer as such in terms of that

16:49 facility. You know, going on a daily

16:51 basis, the inference is that she starved her mother to death.

16:55 She withheld food she withheld. Food.

16:57 And her mother as well died what is thought to be a premature

17:03 death due to Dee Dee's, I guess, neglect or, I don't even know,

17:10 abuse. Yeah.

17:12 And so she's got, you know, that on her hand, she's got the the

17:17 death of her mum, the death of her stepmother.

17:19 Her dad's a bit of a curious. Character, that's an interesting

17:21 one again, isn't it? Should we get into that now?

17:24 There's so there was allegations of later in with Gypsy when she

17:28 was around about sort of from 4 onwards I would say, or even

17:32 from 2 even. Gosh, yeah.

17:34 That there's allegations that he was sexually molesting her.

17:38 I am on the fence of this, of whether or not this is true.

17:42 The way he reacted, Claude, when he was approached with that as a

17:46 possibility in the documentary that was done.

17:49 God, I'm not thinking the name of the documentary now.

17:51 Is that the prison one? Yeah, I think it was, yes.

17:54 Yeah. Which I've got death and.

17:57 The Well, that's Juriston. Yeah.

17:59 I, I, I know which one you're talking about.

18:00 I don't think it was that one. I think it was in the prison

18:02 confessions of prison confessions.

18:04 It was, it was that one. No, you're right.

18:05 It was the prison confessions of Gypsy Rose.

18:07 Yeah, yeah. He was interviewed and asked

18:10 about these allegations. And the way Claude responded was

18:13 that, oh, she was, it was the four year old, you know, her

18:16 fault. She she would put her hand on me

18:19 and things like that. And that gave.

18:21 Me, the absolute creeps. And the fact that he reacted in

18:26 that way makes me think, Oh my God, I can't even imagine what

18:29 went on. Yeah, just gross.

18:31 It gave me the absolute heebie jeebie.

18:33 Totally, really didn't. I don't rate that man at all.

18:37 No, I mean, look at if that was the only piece of evidence of of

18:41 what was going on, what went on, I would have been like, oh God,

18:43 this happened. You know that he's blaming a

18:46 four year old for, you know, this is disgusting.

18:49 But I think the layer of lying that Dee Dee and then who, how

18:54 she taught Gypsy to lie, it's really hard to believe them.

18:59 I I agree, but I agree it was the way he answered that

19:05 question, though, that really made my skin crawl.

19:07 And I've just like that feeling. Yeah, well, something untoward's

19:10 happened here. Yeah.

19:11 We don't know what. No specifics.

19:13 We don't know. But that's.

19:14 When you can't get anymore out of it because.

19:17 That's right. You can't tease out from

19:19 everything. Even Gypsy admits herself that

19:22 she has memories, that she doesn't know whether they're

19:24 true or not, because the things that Dee Dee has like drilled

19:27 into her head and she. That's right.

19:28 She even questions whether some of what she thinks was her lived

19:31 experience was actually that. Yes.

19:33 And that's where I then go like, oh, how are we gonna we can't

19:36 know this. So if.

19:37 If you hadn't sexually abused a child, if someone asked you that

19:40 question, you'd be like, Oh my God, no, that never happened,

19:42 no. His reaction really throws a

19:44 spanner because like, yeah, that's where I can't.

19:47 If I did, until I heard him speak about it, I'm like, did

19:51 that happen? And then the way he answered it,

19:54 I'm like, wait, guilty. Hang on, wait.

19:56 Honestly. Maybe.

19:57 There's something here. So it does.

19:59 It really just throws you. Yeah.

20:01 But yeah, I mean, they haven't done themselves any justice.

20:03 I think DD and Gypsy for what could be truths of what is shit

20:08 and should not happen. You then can't believe them when

20:12 they, you know, on these things because of the rest of it all.

20:16 Like, yeah. That's it, Yeah.

20:18 A family background and maybe a little bit about why Dede became

20:24 the way she became. Or I mean, you know, there's a

20:26 pattern of behavior over her. Absolutely.

20:29 Pattern of behavior for sure, and it.

20:30 Absolutely. And it just ramps up once

20:33 Gypsy's born and she's obviously now got this child that she can

20:37 use to further her 'cause. Yeah, I think the other thing

20:41 that is really interesting, so she was married to Rod for all

20:44 of six months, or less than six months, I think it was in the

20:47 end, she kept his surname. Yeah.

20:50 Yeah, that. I find really interesting, yeah.

20:53 And look, I guess I can speak to that for your, for your child.

20:57 I can understand keeping the surname and you know that you'd

21:00 have to have dad's permission to be able to change her surname.

21:02 So she obviously wasn't going to get that.

21:04 And I totally back Rod in that sort of and saying, well, why

21:07 would she have to change her name when he wants to be part of

21:09 her life? Yep, totally she should.

21:11 That shouldn't have to happen. So I guess hanging on to it for

21:14 that reason. OK.

21:15 Yeah, fair. Cool.

21:16 Yeah. I just wonder, like, you know,

21:18 they were married for less than six months.

21:19 They divorced before Gypsy was born.

21:21 But I get. I see what you're saying.

21:22 She wanted to have the same surname as her child and I.

21:24 Think, I mean, again, it plays into the fact of like how she

21:26 wanted to be linked to to Gypsy. Yeah.

21:29 You know, I think different personality types would be like

21:32 I'm, I'm done with that part of my life in terms of the link to

21:35 him. But you know, that's fine.

21:36 My kids got their surname, but I'm going to move my life and

21:40 have a different career or a different whatever, you know,

21:43 different life without that person that I can change my name

21:45 back. Yeah, but I don't know.

21:48 She's a different personality to most, I think.

21:51 Different personality, yeah. So I guess we're at Gypsies. 3

21:55 months sort of age now and she's had this well.

21:59 So Dee Dee told Rod that Gypsy had stopped breathing.

22:04 Whether or not that's true, we don't know.

22:06 There was definitely no no apneas detected when Gypsy did a

22:10 sleep study, but they still gave her a sleep monitor to take

22:16 home. So Dee Dee's obviously using

22:18 that one thing Gypsy was born with was a lazy eye.

22:22 Have you seen photos of her as a baby?

22:25 Oh no. Actually.

22:26 So as a really little baby, she does have a really badly lazy

22:30 eye and. So much.

22:31 So that they interviewed on that documentary that I was just

22:34 talking about the prison confessions of Gypsy Rose

22:37 Blanchard. Yeah.

22:38 Definitely worth a watch. Yes, it's recent, but it goes

22:42 all the way back through gypsies life and they showed a photo of

22:45 her when she was, I think she was about three or four months

22:47 old and her eyes really lazy. And anyway, they had an

22:50 ophthalmologist talking about talking about lazy eyes.

22:54 Yeah, on the documentary. And he basically said, just

22:57 looking at that, knowing nothing else about the patient, I would

23:01 say that that would need some corrected correction because

23:04 otherwise she would not be able to see out of that eye.

23:06 That's how bad, that's how. Bad.

23:07 It was right, Yeah. And even to look at Gypsy today,

23:12 you can still see she's got a turned eye, a slightly turned

23:14 eye. So, yeah, yeah.

23:16 So that was a legitimate thing that sort of arose and needed

23:21 correction. But I would imagine, I mean,

23:24 kids have lazy eyes, are born with lazy eyes all the time.

23:27 Yeah. And there is treatments for that

23:30 that can be. Yep for sure.

23:32 She needed surgery to to assist in the correction of that.

23:39 She was less than one year of age when she had that surgery,

23:42 but that was a corrective surgery.

23:43 So nothing further. And warranted, absolutely

23:47 warranted. Yeah.

23:48 Nothing further really needed after that.

23:50 But that's not where things ended, is it not?

23:52 Not. At all?

23:55 No. By the time I guess Gypsy got to

23:58 school age or kindergarten age, DD did enroll her in school.

24:04 She attended sporadically attended kindergarten and very

24:09 sporadically attended school up until grade two or year two.

24:12 Well. From so grade two was roughly, I

24:14 think when she had the motorbike accident.

24:15 Yeah, which when I say motorbike accident, your brain can jump

24:18 immediately to like a very severe, crazy, horrific

24:23 incident. So this is apparently, though a

24:25 motorbike accident that was with her grandfather Claude that we

24:28 were talking about earlier where the two of them came off the

24:31 motorbike together. Which what from those people

24:34 that saw this incident, it resulted in a scraped knee for

24:38 Gypsy. However, Dee Dee rushed her off

24:41 to hospital and the next thing you know, she's been diagnosed

24:44 with muscular dystrophy. And her leg is in a leg, breast

24:49 from thigh to calf. Yeah, for a scrape, for a

24:53 scraped knee. Yeah, so it literally went from

24:57 a scraped knee to a severely deteriorating disease that,

25:02 yeah, resulted in her eventually needing to then remain in a

25:05 wheelchair. So it happened very quickly that

25:07 all of a sudden you have to stay in a wheelchair, you're not

25:09 going to be able to walk anymore, which just is crazy.

25:13 So. Gypsy's recount of this was one

25:16 day her mum came home with a wheelchair, walked into the room

25:20 and said to her, get in. God, yeah.

25:24 And Gypsy, I mean, I guess, you know, when you're young, your

25:30 mom is everything that your mom knows everything.

25:32 You know, they're. Yeah, they're.

25:34 Your protector. They're your.

25:35 They're going to do the right thing by you.

25:37 Trust that they're going to do the right thing by you.

25:39 Yeah. And 99.99% of moms do do the

25:42 right thing by their children. Yeah.

25:44 But in this instance, there was no, no.

25:47 Well, first of all, there was no muscular dystrophy, second of

25:50 all. So.

25:51 So we're going to get to this as well.

25:55 The way she got the diagnosis she got blows my mind.

26:01 Absolutely. I mean, she doctor shopped,

26:03 that's for damn sure. Yeah.

26:04 Yeah, I in that documentary I was talking about as well, they

26:08 interviewed a psychologist and she, she wasn't, she's an expert

26:13 in Munchausen by Proxy, which is we should probably discuss what

26:17 that is. Yep, Yep.

26:19 Do you have a definition written down there?

26:21 Well. Actually, to be honest, I

26:22 believe there's two diagnosis here.

26:24 I know she's definitely being diagnosed Munchausen by Proxy,

26:27 which is also. Known as factitious disorder

26:30 imposed on another. Yeah, yeah.

26:32 So the other one though that I've heard being thrown around

26:34 that potentially is not as researched as as that as

26:37 Munchausen is malingering by proxy.

26:40 So the basically the definition between the two, the difference

26:43 is so the Malingo malingering by proxy is a form of maltreatment

26:48 that involves the caregiver or who fabricates or induces signs

26:52 of symptoms in a child, which is similar to Munchausen by proxy.

26:56 However, the difference is that it is an external tangible

27:02 incentive that drives them. Whereas Munchausen by proxy,

27:08 it's the medical attention that you get from like those that are

27:11 really sick. Sure.

27:12 So I but I do believe that she had both going on because when

27:15 you think about it, she was building up these illnesses that

27:18 she was getting attention from more and more doctors, more and

27:21 more people in the world of, you know, that she would get

27:24 detention from people in the feeding feeding tube community,

27:27 people from the, you know, the muscular dystrophy community,

27:31 those people leukemia, they would all, you know, want to,

27:33 you know, evolve around her. And whereas the malingering by

27:37 proxy is where she would tap into get houses to.

27:41 Make Disney tradition. Yeah.

27:43 So it's that. It's the tangible things that

27:45 you get from that, that attention as opposed to the

27:48 medical attention that you're getting.

27:50 Yeah. So I do believe she had both of

27:52 those going on for her. Yeah.

27:54 But it's a very thing, a very hard thing to diagnose.

27:56 Both. Both are very hard to diagnose

27:59 because they doctor shop and they don't know where the where

28:04 it begins and where it ends and who's getting the right

28:06 information. That's.

28:07 It. Yeah, that's exactly right.

28:09 Where? Does the facts start and the

28:10 lies begin and. Gypsy being the proxy, she has

28:15 actually like unknowingly, I think in a lot of ways she's

28:19 contributed to all of that as well because DD was incredibly

28:24 manipulative in the way she in the way she groomed Gypsy to go

28:29 along with everything she said. So I'm just gonna really quickly

28:33 actually right now, Yep, go through a list of gypsies

28:36 diagnosis. Yes.

28:39 And that way we can, when we refer to them, you know, these

28:41 are things that that DD was able to get official diagnosis or she

28:46 was able to tell doctors and tell Gypsies, care providers

28:51 that Gypsy had these things. Yeah.

28:53 So she had sleep apnea. She had a PEG tube, a feeding

28:59 tube, which is a tube that's inserted directly into her

29:01 stomach with a port for feeding due to failure to thrive and

29:05 because apparently she couldn't eat.

29:08 Yeah, she was diagnosed with leukemia at the age of 8,

29:12 asthma, vision and hearing impairment, including the lazy

29:15 eye, muscular dystrophy, seizures and epilepsy.

29:19 At one point, she said that Gypsy was a quadriplegic, which

29:23 means she had no use of her arms or legs.

29:25 But then she downgraded that to paraplegia.

29:28 Now, if someone's a quadriplegic, that's not

29:30 something you can just get out of and just, you know, rehab out

29:34 of necessarily. She said she had brain damage, a

29:36 developmental delay which she actually called mental

29:39 retardation. Awful term.

29:42 Respiratory issues, inflamed Airways, teeth issues which were

29:47 due to medication and poor oral hygiene.

29:51 She had a salivary glands removed because because DD said

29:55 that Gypsy was overproducing saliva and she couldn't eat.

29:59 She had a CPAP machine. She had, she was incontinent.

30:04 She had a heart murmur, which is interesting because DD actually,

30:07 you know, that relates back to DD's.

30:09 And she had heart disease, GI reflux, anemia, lung disease, an

30:13 allergy to sugar and other medication.

30:16 Now this. Gets that one gets me.

30:18 Did you how she like got diagnosed with that?

30:21 Oh no. Oh, so Gypsy told this story and

30:24 only recently on an interview. So the way she was diagnosed

30:27 with that was really interesting.

30:28 So apparently when she for the for I believe it was for the

30:32 leukemia, she was on a particular medication that turns

30:34 out she was legitimately allergic to this medication.

30:37 So instead of like going, oh, wow, that's another thing I can,

30:40 you know, start gain gain sympathy over.

30:43 She has an allergy to a leukemia medication.

30:45 Instead of that, she kept giving Jeep Gypsy this medication to

30:49 induce a higher sort of reaction to it so that she was covered in

30:54 this rash, went to another doctor altogether and said

30:58 didn't mention anything about this medication that she was on

31:01 and said this is what happened when she ate chocolate.

31:04 So then she ended up with a diagnosis that she was allergic

31:06 to sugar, but. Her main source of nutrition at

31:10 the time was pedia. Sure, yes.

31:12 Which is literally sugars like it is.

31:17 I mean, it's a, it's a high calorie, you know, complete

31:22 supplement, Yes, which she was being fed to through her PEG

31:27 port. Which, I mean, she was having

31:30 that pedia, sure. Like, that's for children.

31:33 Yeah. But she was basically on that

31:35 until she was like, you know, 20s.

31:36 Yes, she was 20. 23 I think she was still.

31:41 Being fed the pediatial she. Had the pig tube from the time I

31:44 think up until she was like 23 or 24 years of age, yeah.

31:47 But doesn't that like, I'm sorry, so is there not like a

31:52 that's a kids version of something?

31:53 Is there like an adult version that she should have been

31:55 actually sustigent? Because I'm sure that your needs

31:57 change of what your body absolutely.

31:59 Requires. Absolutely.

32:00 Yeah, because it's grown the calorie needs of a three-year

32:03 old significantly different from that of a 24 year old.

32:06 Yeah. And also the, the like, the

32:09 combination of nutrients. I think Pedia show was

32:11 recommended up until about 10 years of age.

32:13 Yeah. But Didi wanted to keep Gypsy

32:16 small and little and like a child.

32:19 Lutely. Even at 24 years of age, you

32:21 look at photos of her and you think she looked like a

32:24 teenager. She did.

32:25 A young teenager. And she was.

32:27 So little and so petite. And there was not a lot of her,

32:31 no. I mean, to the point where I

32:32 believe like a neighbour who was actually a year older than her

32:36 believed that she was like an like she acted like an older

32:38 sister to her at times because she believed she was like a good

32:40 six years older than her, significantly older, but she was

32:43 only one. She was actually old only.

32:44 No, she was one year younger. That's right.

32:46 She was one year younger. Yep.

32:48 Yeah. Yeah.

32:50 It's probably worth noting here as well.

32:52 Throughout Gypsy's life she never really knew what her

32:57 actual date of birth was. I think, well, year of birth is

33:00 probably more accurate. DD told her in certain

33:04 circumstances that she was born in either 1993 or 1995, not

33:09 1991. So she believed she was either

33:11 two or four years younger than what she actually was.

33:15 Yeah. She sort of, she actually told

33:18 Rodded at one point when he called to speak to say happy

33:21 birthday to her for her 18th birthday.

33:24 She, I mean, he was, I feel for him in this situation.

33:27 He didn't know it was what truth was, but so he he believed that

33:30 she was a sick kid, you know, kind of thing.

33:32 But he rang to wish her happy birthday and Dee Dee said do not

33:36 say happy 18th birthday. She doesn't know she's 18

33:39 because she's the intellectual age of like younger that she

33:42 was. So she basically convinced Rod

33:45 to lie about her age because of this intellectual disorder that

33:48 she had and. Also, I think part of the

33:50 reasoning for that also according to Rod, was that she

33:54 she had a life expectancy. Well, this changed according to

33:58 what suited DD. Yeah, but at some point that she

34:01 had a life expectancy to the age of 20.

34:04 So DD is like, I don't want her to know that she's 18 because.

34:06 She's now a couple. Of years, yeah, that's

34:08 interesting. We've got a couple of years

34:09 left, you know, so he, he sort of took that on and went, oh, of

34:12 course I'm not, don't want to distress my daughter.

34:15 Yeah, yeah. So, and if you're if you're led

34:18 to believe she has an intellectual disorder, that it's

34:19 not going to make any difference for her, for this child is

34:21 potentially going to die, you know, you know, at a very young

34:24 age, bugger it. Just go along with and wish her

34:26 happy birthday without saying mentioning her age.

34:28 You know, I can totally understand that.

34:30 Absolutely. But yeah, it was basically so

34:32 that, but she didn't have an intellectual disorder, which is

34:35 very clear to this day that she did not have an intellectual

34:37 disorder and she was not sick enough that she was gonna be

34:40 dying so. She blows my mind looking at

34:43 interviews with her now. Yeah.

34:44 And, you know, she's had an education and a a sporadic

34:48 education at that to grade 2. She's then completely.

34:53 She well, Didi said she homeschooled it.

34:55 That never happened. She's an incredibly intelligent

34:59 woman. Yeah, I think she's.

35:01 Very well spoken. She's considered she's she's,

35:05 she's very impressive considering everything she's

35:07 been through. Definitely.

35:08 And I mean, I think she was coached more than educated.

35:12 I believe that, you know, DD would have like spoken to her

35:14 about how to, how to speak certain ways, how to get the

35:17 right attention. So I think she's been, she's

35:20 very well spoken because that's what she's done for her whole

35:23 life is, you know, yeah, be interviewed, et cetera, about

35:26 her, her illnesses and all these sorts of things.

35:29 So she's had to present a certain way.

35:32 But she's certainly just at the core of her own being an

35:34 intelligent person because she's got to where she is now.

35:38 And. Yeah.

35:38 And she seems to be doing well in that.

35:41 Yeah. That's it.

35:42 We can get to the now. Yeah, we're still a few pages

35:46 away. Yeah.

35:50 Yeah. DD just blows my mind.

35:53 So in order to, I guess, assist with all this doctor shopping

35:56 and whatnot, she would move places as well.

35:59 So this also further isolated her from contact with her dad.

36:02 And so that's why he didn't necessarily he he would go for a

36:05 long, long periods of time without seeing her because they

36:08 lived so far away from one another.

36:10 So in two August of 2005, they were implicated in Hurricane

36:15 Katrina. Yeah.

36:16 So they were living in in Slidell, LA, at the time, is

36:21 that right? Yeah.

36:21 And when Hurricane Katrina hit, they were living in a, in a unit

36:25 of sorts. And they their house, like you

36:29 can see photos online as well of their house was destroyed by

36:34 Hurricane Katrina legitimately. Legitimately and yeah I mean

36:37 anyone in caught up in that it was horrific it was awful so

36:40 yeah they're legit it hit them, but they she used it to their

36:43 advantage then well she. Did so one of the things that

36:46 really got me was she never contacted Rod and so the other

36:50 so Rod about when Gypsy was about one year of age, Rod met

36:55 and then married Christy Blanchard, his now.

36:58 Wife His. Now wife they've they're still

37:00 married to this day. I rate her so.

37:03 Same she. Is awesome and she really took

37:06 Gypsy on and took her on wholeheartedly.

37:10 Her heart is in the right place. She cares so much for her, but

37:14 she in the documentary, she is interviewed throughout and she

37:20 basically said when Katrina hit, they had no idea what had

37:24 happened to Dee Dee and Gypsy. They didn't know if they were

37:27 alive or dead for like, I think it was over a week, yeah.

37:30 I I bet Dee Dee loved that, you know, like that whole idea of

37:33 people thinking, oh, my gosh, what's happened to them?

37:36 Like, but they were safe. The house was, yes, destroyed,

37:38 but they were safe. Yeah.

37:40 Oh, yeah. And they also do that to people.

37:42 Horrible. Yeah.

37:43 Like that's a form of abuse in and of.

37:45 Absolutely. Yeah.

37:48 But as you said, DD used the fact that that they were in

37:51 Katrina to her advantage and by 2008 they relocated to

37:59 Springfield, MO because Habitat for Humanity built them a

38:04 purpose built house, Yeah. Like, like, you know, as in

38:07 wheelchair access and everything.

38:08 Yeah, for this wider. Door frames access like into the

38:12 shower and toilet Yeah, like wheelchair access throughout the

38:15 house Why all of the stuff that all the.

38:17 Stuff they need. Well, well, they didn't.

38:19 Receive Me The house was baby pink with white trim.

38:25 Which was beautiful looking you know her was Gypsy's favorite

38:28 colour They you know she was way into a Cinderella and Princess

38:32 and all these sorts of things another.

38:33 Way of Dee Dee keeping her like sort of juvenile.

38:36 Yeah. Yeah.

38:39 Around this time as well, she really started pushing Gypsy

38:44 sort of into the media. There was a lot of media, media

38:46 attention around their situation and the fact they'd been in

38:50 Katrina. That was definitely a topic

38:52 that, you know, people wanted to know about these beautiful, you

38:55 know, very human stories about, of survival and what people had

38:58 been through. She, this was around the time

39:01 she got the Make a Wish grant. So they've obviously been given

39:05 a house through Habitat for Humanity.

39:07 They went on a Disney trip. They had a backstage pass to a

39:11 Miranda Lambert concert. The gifts were coming from the

39:16 community, from all over. The United States would send

39:20 them checks, cash in envelopes, but they were just.

39:25 Raking it in raking. It in, yeah.

39:27 She was even awarded child of the year in 2007 by I believe it

39:31 was a feeding tube community as well, like.

39:33 So that would have come with a few perks and accolades.

39:37 Yeah. And she didn't need that feeding

39:39 tube. There's kids out there who

39:40 genuinely need help and money and yeah, and.

39:44 They were taking it all when Gypsy talks about like how she

39:49 was, I guess, involved with all of this.

39:52 Dee Dee would physically control her as well as emotionally,

39:56 mentally, all of those things. So she would grab, hold her,

39:58 hold her hand and say that in inverted commas.

40:01 And if Gypsy wasn't toeing the line or saying the right thing,

40:04 she'd squeeze so that Gypsy knew she had to, you know, take a

40:09 step back. Like it was all unspoken but.

40:12 Gypsy knew what she had to do, yeah, in order to survive that.

40:17 Another one that I read, actually, no, it was Gypsy

40:19 actually explained this, which I think is awful, and it was her

40:22 way of keeping her. Little was that once she got her

40:25 period. Did you?

40:26 Yeah. I thought this was awful.

40:28 So instead of showing her how to use pads or tampons, Dee Dee

40:32 insisted that she wear a diaper when she'd get her.

40:35 Period. Yeah, like.

40:36 At this point, this was right up until fairly late into her

40:39 teens, and then it's just. She said that a woman in prison.

40:43 So again, we're jumping a bit here, but a woman in prison

40:46 taught her how to use tampons. She didn't know how to.

40:48 Yeah. And even then, like, up until

40:51 she was in her 20s, she was still wearing diapers, nappies.

40:55 Yeah. When she had her period, she

40:57 didn't know she'd. Wear adult nappies, Yeah.

40:59 Yeah, she didn't. It's horrible.

41:02 The other thing, just Speaking of sort of that personal hygiene

41:04 and taking care of yourself. Gypsy said that when she was

41:11 left to her own devices after Dee Dee's death, she had to

41:15 learn how to look after herself. She had never, she'd never had

41:20 to wash herself, brush her own teeth.

41:22 Like everything about the sort of self-care and hygiene, none

41:29 of that had been taught to her. So as a 20 something year old

41:32 girl woman, sorry. Yeah, she's learning those basic

41:37 life skills because Dee Dee had just controlled literally

41:40 everything, every aspect of her life.

41:42 Well, she. Was literally a little girl in a

41:44 woman's body at that point. Yeah, and.

41:47 A woman's body, you know, undergoing changes and you know,

41:52 and probably. Impacted quite severely in terms

41:54 of the medications she was on to like I'm sure it would.

41:57 Those medications were doing a lot more harm than good because

42:01 they certainly weren't treating anything.

42:03 No, in terms of what they were meant to be treated.

42:04 Sedate or give gypsy sedatives if they were going out in public

42:09 sometimes just to keep her, you know, docile and.

42:12 Looking. Sick, looking sick and looking

42:16 delayed for her age, like showing that she has the mental

42:19 capacity. I think she used to say she's

42:20 like an 11 year old. Yeah, 7:00.

42:22 Year old or? 11 year old, I can't remember.

42:23 She basically said she's. About 5 four to five years

42:25 younger than she actually was. Almost she.

42:27 But Dede would also self medicate too.

42:29 At night she would. Takes.

42:31 Take sleeping pills and so that she was well and truly out at

42:34 night, which is when Gypsy would then go Well, I can get out of

42:37 my wheelchair. I don't, you know, like, yeah, I

42:39 would, it dawned. On her.

42:41 Like, Gypsy knew she could walk. Yeah.

42:42 It's not like she. She knew she could wait there.

42:45 And she absolutely would. Yes, in the privacy of her own

42:48 home, she knew she wasn't allowed to walk in front of

42:50 other people. She would.

42:51 Question it with her mum, but yeah, she would just be told you

42:55 don't know what I know and you need to stick on this story.

42:59 Like, yeah, yeah. In February, so she's undergoing

43:03 all these hormonal changes to she's become a woman.

43:06 February 2011 they they go to a convention.

43:11 So Gypsy was really into is it like like comic type?

43:17 Like a comic play. You'd call it like kind of

43:20 things she'd loved yeah any of those like dress up stuff and

43:23 like yeah, sci-fi. She was just sci-fi into Disney

43:26 and because. All she had in her life was

43:28 literally watching movies. Yes, Dee Dee didn't let her do

43:31 anything. Yes.

43:31 She had Star Wars and all those and yeah.

43:34 So they went to this convention. So Gypsy was actually 19 at the

43:38 time, but thought she was 15. Yeah, and at this convention she

43:44 met a 35 year old man who I think he was there as a stall

43:47 holder or something. Yeah, Yep.

43:49 Damn. And he they sort of started a

43:52 bit of a, an online fringe. Yeah, he well, at this stage she

43:57 had a computer that she was keeping hidden from.

44:01 Somehow she hid that from DDI think she purchased it.

44:05 When like they'd gone to a mall, I don't know how she got the

44:07 money. I think she got the money

44:09 because people used to send them cash and she just was managed to

44:12 get her hands on however much money you needed for a laptop

44:14 back in the day. And she managed to get the

44:18 laptop when Didi went off to get some food while they were at a

44:21 mall. And she like really quickly made

44:24 the purchase, shoved it in a in a.

44:26 Wheel back into a wheelchair or something, yeah.

44:28 And then that's how. Yeah, yeah.

44:29 So she had this laptop, so she had a Facebook profile and this

44:33 Dan that when she they met at the convention, he found her

44:36 online on her Facebook page when he got home.

44:39 So they started communicating. Yeah, yeah.

44:42 He. Was 35 years of age and he was.

44:43 Told she was 15 as much as she was 19.

44:46 I so technically legal, but from all accounts for like what Gypsy

44:51 believed she was 15 and this guy was being told she was 15, which

44:54 I just find that what gross and it meant that he so that he

44:58 didn't then just kind of go huh, weird that I have this

45:00 attraction to her like but she's so young.

45:02 Let it go. He went Oh no, I'll find her

45:05 online. I'll.

45:06 Pursue this a little further. Yeah, yeah.

45:11 They ended up meeting up and nothing happened.

45:14 As in like they it the relationship didn't turn sexual

45:18 because DD found them. Yeah, so.

45:21 Crazy how she haunted her down. Yeah, haunted.

45:23 Her down, I think she was, in the end, she was away from DD

45:27 for less than four hours. Like DD was able to track her

45:29 down and find her. They were at a hotel or

45:31 something, yeah. Something like that.

45:34 And basically, so this is a direct quote from Gypsy, DD said

45:38 to her. If you ever try to do that

45:40 again, I'm going to smash your fingers with a hammer.

45:44 Yeah, well, no, she, well, she smashed her computer because she

45:46 found that she did. She.

45:47 Smashed the computer, she found a phone, Yep, laptop.

45:50 Smashed them and apparently at this point also chained her to

45:53 her bed for two weeks. Gypsy talks about this in the

45:56 documentary that she was made to go to the toilet in a bucket

46:01 beside the bed. Yeah, she soiled herself.

46:04 And she was. Turned up by a dog leash.

46:05 Yeah. So that and the other end was

46:07 on. It was with D, with with DD, so

46:09 that she'd know if she moved, Yeah.

46:11 It's just horrific. So, you know, these things were

46:15 escalating. Gypsy obviously had this desire

46:18 within her. She needed and wanted friends.

46:21 She needed and wanted to explore that side of herself.

46:24 Like she's a developing woman. She had needs that clearly were

46:28 not being met. Yes.

46:29 And you know, what did Dee Dee expect was going to happen?

46:34 Yeah. Well, she expected her to stay a

46:35 child for the rest of her life, I think she thought.

46:37 That I don't think she thought this through, No.

46:40 Back to this point, no. That there aren't natural

46:42 biological things that occur that mean you grow up and that,

46:46 you know, you have needs, as you say.

46:48 And so she was and she was so confused by that.

46:50 I can only imagine how confusing that would be to be thinking,

46:52 why am I thinking like this when I'm this child that doesn't

46:56 think like that, You know, where are these thoughts coming from

46:58 and how what they all mean? Because she's never been.

47:00 It's never been explained to her.

47:02 Yeah. That's it.

47:03 She did have that neighbour that you were talking about, yes,

47:08 sort of she thought was her her biggest sister.

47:12 But, you know, yeah, actually very, very similar age.

47:15 And they were talking one day and this girl had a boyfriend.

47:19 And she's like, oh, how did you meet your boyfriend?

47:20 And she found out there was some Christian dating site.

47:23 And so Gypsy was desperate for a boyfriend of her own.

47:27 She went on the site. I don't know how she got hold of

47:29 another laptop. Probably in a similar way I

47:31 think. She pinched her mum's when she'd

47:32 go to sleep because she was so out of it.

47:34 I think she'd go and get her mum's OK.

47:35 Yeah. And she, so she joined up to

47:38 this Christian dating site and she met a man by the name of

47:42 Nicholas Go to John and they developed.

47:45 So this is 2012 now. They developed a relationship

47:48 over the next 2 1/2 years. Secret to Didi.

47:51 Didi had no idea it was all Yeah.

47:54 When Didi was asleep. Didi had a lot of chronic health

47:57 issues herself. She certainly didn't look after

47:59 herself. She developed over this time.

48:01 She developed like diabetes. She had, I think she had sleep

48:06 apnea or something like that as well.

48:08 She wasn't a healthy woman by any stretch of the imagination,

48:11 physically or mentally. Yeah.

48:12 Yeah. And so, you know, I think Gypsy

48:15 used that to her advantage to sort of be able to stay up when

48:20 her mum had sort of passed out for the night.

48:22 Yeah. And start her life.

48:24 Would basically begin once, you know, once DD was asleep.

48:28 She could actually be who she really was, I guess, you know,

48:31 And eat. Sugar and.

48:34 Yeah walk walk around yeah and contact her boyfriend yeah which

48:38 at 19 or you know no she was probably no she was older than

48:41 this sorry 2012 so she would have been 22 ish 2122 Yep at

48:46 this stage I mean yeah every 2122 year old yeah you wanted a

48:51 friend meet meet the person that you want to spend some time with

48:54 and I. Think she had that fantasy too

48:56 because she'd grown up watching these Cinderella type movies.

48:59 You know, she had that fantasy of having the perfect love story

49:04 and romance and she didn't have that real life experience of,

49:09 you know, maybe that's not the way things go for everybody.

49:12 So she was very naive in approaching all of this.

49:15 Absolutely. And the person she chose, or I

49:18 guess he was kind of the first person who they she sort of

49:21 started interacting with. He wasn't probably the right

49:24 person to be. Even so, this Nick, Nick goaded

49:28 on his ex-girlfriend actually reached out to Gypsy and said to

49:33 her, he's really violent, like be careful.

49:36 And yeah, with her naivety, she was like, oh, that's no way.

49:40 She just, she's just jealous and fobbed it off and didn't pay any

49:42 attention to it. But I think there was some truth

49:45 to that, unfortunately so. In 2013, he was actually caught

49:52 at a McDonald's watching pornography on a laptop.

49:55 Yeah, he claimed to have multiple personalities.

50:00 He also had a diagnosis of autism.

50:03 Yeah, he had some incredibly troubling behaviours.

50:06 Yeah. He also had an IQ of about 85,

50:09 which is not. It's.

50:12 Lower not yeah, yeah, yeah. He tried to hold down sort of

50:17 jobs and that kind of thing, but I don't know that he was all

50:20 that successful in those endeavours.

50:22 Yeah. So Gypsy had confided eventually

50:27 in her neighbour about, about this real secret relationship

50:31 with Nicholas. And so the neighbour's name was

50:35 Aaliyah Woodmansee. And he, she told her that they

50:40 were planning a future together. They were having.

50:42 They're engaging in sexual behaviours online, sexual

50:46 exchanges online. He was into BDSM, which Gypsy

50:51 didn't even know what that was, so I had to look into that.

50:55 But obviously then, but she would have thought.

50:57 That was just very normal too, because that's she don't didn't

51:00 know any different in her mind. That was like, well, kind of

51:03 what what you do, yeah. Yeah, and they spoke of eloping.

51:07 Yeah, he was also quite controlling with his behaviour.

51:10 There was one particular quote where apparently at the end of

51:12 every communication that they had together, she had to say to

51:16 him this one particular sentence, which was I love and

51:19 adore you, my Prince Charming. Goodnight.

51:22 Yeah. So that had to be repeated at

51:23 the end of every one of their communications, which I find

51:26 that's really odd an. Interesting person.

51:29 Very interesting, yeah. But apparently the the two of

51:32 them. So from what Gypsy's account of

51:35 things, she sort of has spoken about how she spent a lot of

51:38 time weighing out the pros and cons of what of the situation

51:41 she was in, of how she was going to get to be with Nick.

51:45 You know, whether or not that she could wait out for her mum

51:49 to naturally pass away to be with Nick or whether or not she

51:54 had to do something else to speed that up so that she could

51:58 her and Nick could be together. And they sort of mapped out sort

52:01 of Plan A, Plan B, Plan C sort of situation.

52:03 They didn't immediately jump to conclusions at first.

52:06 But so Plan A was for she basically had this idea in her

52:10 head, Gypsy, that if, if only my mum could meet him and then

52:13 she'd know how lovely he was. And then we're meant to be

52:15 together and then she'll allow it to happen.

52:18 So they they decided to have this set up a meeting.

52:22 It was just coincidence that they would bump into each other

52:25 at this movie theatre. And the whole plan was that she

52:28 would go, she would just start talking to hear this random

52:30 person being Nick and that DD would also fall in love with him

52:34 as being potentially her daughter's boyfriend.

52:36 And it would all be la, la, la rainbows.

52:39 Yeah, rainbows and lollipops. But that's not how it went.

52:42 They've got to the movie theatre.

52:44 And they were. Going to see Cinderella.

52:46 So I think that was an interesting choice for a, a

52:48 single man. Single man to watch that, Well,

52:51 you know, ostensibly on his own, yeah.

52:53 I mean, and she'd go dressed up as like the character in the

52:55 story and stuff, which, OK. I know, yeah.

52:59 So yeah, so they rocked up to the movie theatre and, yeah, met

53:02 Nick and Dee. Dee did not like him, right?

53:05 From the get go I thought he was weird which.

53:07 I kind of go she's onto something.

53:09 Absolutely. I don't think she was wrong.

53:11 Yeah, and he, I mean, I've seen interviews with him prior and,

53:15 and after, and it's an interesting character, to say

53:18 the least. Oh, very much so.

53:19 I don't think I'd be, you know, thrilled that my daughter had

53:22 pinned this guy to be a boyfriend.

53:25 So, yeah, that didn't go well. But their other plan then came,

53:28 tried to sort of come into place.

53:29 They did it. Sorry.

53:31 Gypsy immediately realized this was not going how she wanted it

53:34 to. So Plan B was that if Gypsy fell

53:37 pregnant, she would have to marry him and they'd have to be

53:40 together and DD would just have to accept it then.

53:43 So they decided to rendezvous in the bathroom of the movie

53:47 theater and have sex. So this was the first time for

53:51 her, but apparently he couldn't perform.

53:56 But yeah, so they tried Plan B, but that didn't obviously work.

54:00 And I dare say to be honest, even falling pregnant for her at

54:02 this point with all the medications that she was on, I

54:05 don't even think if that was successfully regularly doing

54:08 having sex, whether or not she could fall pregnant to be really

54:10 honest. I mean, she was getting a

54:12 period, but I wonder, like, what impact the medications would

54:17 have on a potential fetus. Like she was still on like

54:22 hundreds of medications a week. It was.

54:24 It was ridiculous. Yeah.

54:26 So yeah, you're absolutely right.

54:27 But I doubt that would have ever, Yeah, come to a natural

54:31 and nice no conclusion. So.

54:34 Then it left them with Plan C, which it wasn't the greatest of

54:38 plans, but no. So their plan C was to murder,

54:45 murder Dee Dee because in Gypsy's words, it was sort of

54:49 the only way out. She couldn't see another way

54:52 out. So Nicholas Go to John lived in

54:56 Big Bend, WI, which was a few hours, I think, away from where

55:02 Dee Dee and and Gypsy were living.

55:06 So they concocted this plan that that Nicholas would come to the

55:10 house, they would wait for DD to go to sleep and fall into a

55:14 deep, deep sleep. Gypsy would then, you know,

55:17 signal him to come into the house and that he was going to

55:22 stab her to death. Yeah.

55:24 And that is exactly what happened.

55:26 Gypsy hid in the bathroom. Well, go to John stabbed Dee Dee

55:30 to death, horrific scenes. If you again, if you want to,

55:35 you can have a look and see this the crime scene photos online.

55:40 It's pretty horrible. But the thing that I find

55:45 absolutely disgusting is that after that go to, John insisted.

55:50 Or in Gypsy's words, it was a rape engaged in sexual activity

55:56 in Gypsy's bedroom. Following.

55:58 Yeah. So I have a different view on

56:02 that a little bit Go. So I've listened to the police

56:06 recordings of the interview of the two of them.

56:08 Yeah, after the fact. Yeah.

56:10 There's actually a really good podcast where they really deep

56:13 dive into it called Monsters Who Murder.

56:15 So they pick it apart a fair bit.

56:17 And look, I have to write like the guy who does the interview

56:19 of Gypsy is terrible. He's an absolutely awful.

56:23 What a hack. Hack.

56:24 I know a hack is a good way to put it.

56:26 Yeah, he just was terrible, whereas the female was not.

56:28 Even trained and I'd be like Oh my God.

56:32 Terrible at interviewing her and he really in some ways he went

56:36 jumped from both sides of the fence to be honest.

56:38 He really, like, I went down a really bad path with her of

56:41 like, you know, it's there's a whole back story to her why this

56:44 has occurred, had no understanding of that

56:46 whatsoever, but also then fed her to be able to manipulate a

56:50 little bit, which is what she's been trained to do from the

56:52 youngest of ages. So he's really either fallen for

56:56 her trap in terms of her ability to manipulate or he's just

57:00 handed to her on a silver platter how she can downplay

57:03 what's going on from her perspective and really put this

57:06 all on Nick. So the two in the interview

57:10 process, she claims yet that Nick raped her.

57:14 He she actually says that because she wouldn't allow Nick

57:18 to rape her mum, he had she had to let him rape her.

57:23 But Nick's story of that, who has a very lovely woman who's

57:28 interviewing him. And so there's really no reason

57:30 for him to have lied about this in the process of the interview.

57:34 The way it came out was very it seemed very natural him with

57:37 this telling the story was that when he came to the door of the

57:40 bathroom after stabbing Dee Dee, Gypsy didn't come out straight

57:44 away because she was shaving her legs and her vagina preparing

57:49 for then having consensual sex. It really, it's interesting

57:53 listening to it and being broken down as to yeah, who, which

57:58 story there is true so. I I've, I've watched both of

58:02 those interviews and I fully agree with what you're saying.

58:04 Yeah. Gypsy's most recent recount of

58:08 that, which is in in that documentary that's just come

58:12 out, the Prison Confessions of Gypsy Rose.

58:15 She says there that she felt she had to have sex with him because

58:20 he'd done her a favor. Yes, I know.

58:22 And I do I've I completely see that and I think that that

58:25 again, it is it's who this is where it's overlaying piece of

58:30 this whole issue is how she's been raised.

58:33 So she has no understanding of really what probably what rape

58:37 is or what you know, what having sex is and consensual sex at

58:39 that. BDSM being put into it as what

58:42 into the mix. Her understanding of life and

58:45 normals in that sense is so warped.

58:49 So warped that I don't think she wasn't.

58:53 She's to me she wasn't a 24 year old woman consenting to sex.

58:57 No, she was still in the mindset of potentially a 15 to 16 year

59:00 old girl not knowing what on earth's going on.

59:03 So she shouldn't give consent. She shouldn't be able to give

59:05 consent legally anyway. So I put it in a category of

59:07 rape in that sense. Agreed, but.

59:11 But then Nicholas, Nicholas having his limited capacity in

59:17 terms of understanding the situation as well, you know.

59:22 Just a whole big cauldron of mess.

59:24 And I, that's where I kind of go, oh, I don't know if I can

59:26 put on him that he, that he necessarily raped her in that

59:29 situation, because I don't think either of them have the

59:31 intellectual ability of the situation.

59:34 Yeah, to label any of it. I think you're right.

59:38 I absolutely think you're right, but I also think it's absolutely

59:40 revolting that they've just stabbed a person to death and

59:43 then they're having sex and shagging in the bathroom

59:46 regardless of what. Regardless, that just seems so.

59:50 But none of this, yeah, none of it is coming from two people who

59:54 have a sense of normal agree, and of any of anything of life.

1:00:00 It's so beyond, yeah. So DD was murdered on the 9th of

1:00:05 June. Gypsy and Nick have gone back to

1:00:08 Big Bend. Which is where?

1:00:10 They have to spend a few few nights in a hotel first where

1:00:12 they they mailed the knife back to Big Bend.

1:00:16 So it wasn't travelling with them at the time as well.

1:00:18 So there's a lot of like pre planning and things of what was

1:00:22 going on. So there what there is certainly

1:00:24 an understanding of what they've done is wrong and everything,

1:00:27 Nick. Lives with his mum and stepdad

1:00:31 in Big Bend. They rock up there on the door

1:00:34 and they're sort of staying there well.

1:00:37 He told them that Gypsy had been kicked out by her mum.

1:00:40 And so they were and, and the mother and stepfather were

1:00:43 really lovely in that. And they were like, well, yeah,

1:00:45 of course she can come stay here and we can work this out.

1:00:47 You know, like if she's being kicked out, they were, they were

1:00:49 just taking in a poor girl who'd been kicked out of her house.

1:00:52 Like that's from their perspective, not knowing any of

1:00:54 any of these other stuff, so. Gypsies walked away from the

1:00:57 house. Yes, she's left her, left her

1:01:00 wheelchair and everything else behind.

1:01:02 Yeah, but it's not like five days after the murder, nothing's

1:01:07 come out about it. And so Gypsy, in her retelling

1:01:10 of this, she she was, she wanted her mum to be found.

1:01:13 She didn't want her to be lying there rotting.

1:01:15 I mean, I can't imagine how horrific that body would be

1:01:18 after five days. But anyway, on the 14th of June,

1:01:21 so five days after the murder, Gypsy decides to post.

1:01:26 So Dee Dee and Gypsy had a shared Facebook account and she

1:01:29 decides to post on that account and she just wrote that bitch is

1:01:33 dead. She's.

1:01:34 An interesting thing to right? Well, she, I guess she, she sees

1:01:39 it from the fact that she wants people to think that somebody

1:01:42 has come in and murdered Dee Dee.

1:01:44 Yeah. Kidnapped Gypsy, Yeah.

1:01:45 OK, so. It's the the kidnapper.

1:01:48 The murderer has written the post.

1:01:49 Yeah. Neighbours and friends see the

1:01:51 post and become quite concerned. Yeah, you can.

1:01:53 Actually see the thread on the post, the Facebook post, like

1:01:56 people kind of commenting going, I think you've been hacked.

1:01:58 Like that was first it was fairly innocent, like, oh,

1:02:00 there's something going on. And then people going, ah, this

1:02:02 is interesting. No one's answering seen her.

1:02:03 We're neighbours. We've knocked on the door and

1:02:05 haven't seen her. We can't.

1:02:06 Can't get anything. Yeah.

1:02:07 Should someone call the police? Yes.

1:02:09 And they do. They call the police and the

1:02:10 police actually get a a warrant in order to be able to enter

1:02:13 their home. Yeah.

1:02:15 And, well, even. Before that, a neighbour climbs

1:02:17 through a window because the cops can't enter, obviously,

1:02:19 without a warrant. So in the in the middle of

1:02:21 waiting for the warrant, they said the cops kind of go, yeah,

1:02:24 yeah. Well, you can climb through the

1:02:25 window. I'll.

1:02:26 Turn the line down. We're not.

1:02:27 Here which I I'll go go for it. Yeah, I'd have someone do that

1:02:30 to me if they want to. So the neighbors climbed to the

1:02:34 window and so they don't want to go traipsing through the house

1:02:36 like. But he could see that they were

1:02:38 calling out, no ones answering, but they could see that her

1:02:40 wheelchair was there, that gypsies wheelchair was there.

1:02:43 And so they got even more concerned because they're like,

1:02:46 Oh, my goodness, she doesn't have her medications or a

1:02:48 wheelchair or so the kidnappers taken her.

1:02:51 And she might be really ill and unable to move to get herself

1:02:56 away from these people. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:02:59 But then once the police are able to gain entry into the

1:03:03 house, they obviously discover Daddy's body.

1:03:05 She's lying face down in the bed, stabbed, stabbed in her

1:03:09 back 17. Stab wounds in the back, yeah.

1:03:12 So pretty frenzied attack. Yeah, she's clearly deceased and

1:03:15 has been for a while. The next post that Gypsy makes

1:03:21 from the Facebook account to sort of further her story or

1:03:27 further cement her story that she's been kidnapped.

1:03:29 The direct quote that she's written is I fucking slashed

1:03:32 that fat pig and raped her sweet innocent daughter.

1:03:36 Her scream was so fucking loud lol God.

1:03:40 Yep. So Gypsy's written that now when

1:03:44 the police had sort of they've discovered D DS body, they're

1:03:47 like, what the Hell's going on here?

1:03:48 They start interviewing the people milling around the house.

1:03:51 And one of those neighbors is the the girl who was quite

1:03:55 friendly with Gypsy. And she actually tells the

1:03:59 police, oh, look, she's been in this relationship with this man.

1:04:02 This is his name. I'm pretty sure this is where he

1:04:04 lives. Yeah.

1:04:05 And they were actually able to trace the IP address of that,

1:04:08 those Facebook posts to Big Bend and the exact address at which

1:04:13 Nicholas was living. Yeah.

1:04:14 And obviously Gypsy was there as well.

1:04:16 They've knocked on the door and arrested them.

1:04:18 Yeah, it. Was fairly quickly and easily I

1:04:20 think it was. Within it was within hours.

1:04:22 Yeah, yeah. They were charged with murder

1:04:26 and felony armed criminal action and remained.

1:04:31 They were remanded in custody, Yeah, pending their hearings.

1:04:35 So Gypsy went to court on the 5th of July in 2016.

1:04:41 So the murder happened 2015. About a year later, she's she's

1:04:47 going to trial. She pleads guilty to 2nd degree

1:04:50 murder and receives a sentence of 10 years.

1:04:53 There's a lot of controversy around like there's, there's

1:04:56 people who believe all different things.

1:04:58 Some people believe she she should never have been

1:05:00 convicted, never been charged. This is not her fault.

1:05:03 She's a victim of of a crime herself, blah blah blah blah

1:05:07 blah. Go to John's trial didn't happen

1:05:10 until November 2018, by which stage Gypsy was well and truly

1:05:15 into serving her sentence and she testified at his trial.

1:05:22 And again, you can go and look at the video, the videos from

1:05:26 that court hearing or from the court case.

1:05:29 It's really fascinating, the things that she says, you know?

1:05:32 She basically, you know, does say it was her idea and that,

1:05:36 you know, Nick was following her instructions.

1:05:38 Yeah, Yeah. Which I mean, because she's

1:05:39 afraid to do it. She's been convicted.

1:05:41 She's got her sentence. She's not going to get more for

1:05:42 saying, Yep, the truth. So she sat there and gave a

1:05:46 pretty full. Accurate account of what

1:05:48 happened? Yep.

1:05:50 But yeah, his attorneys were, they were arguing that Nick

1:05:53 wasn't necessarily innocent. They were just arguing that he

1:05:56 should have had a lesser sentence in terms of the second

1:05:59 degree murder rather than a first degree murder.

1:06:02 So that's where they were hoping that we'd get it downgraded to a

1:06:05 second degree murder. Yeah, which they didn't.

1:06:08 That wasn't successful. He was.

1:06:10 He was found guilty of first degree murder and criminal armed

1:06:13 action, and he was sentenced to life in prison plus 20.

1:06:16 Five years for the. He's criminal.

1:06:18 Yeah. Yeah.

1:06:20 Which I mean, they seem sort of fairly opposite ends of the

1:06:23 spectrum in terms of sentencings.

1:06:26 So I know lots of people have fairly strong opinions on both

1:06:30 ways. There's people who think that

1:06:31 Gypsy should rot in jail for the rest of her life.

1:06:33 There's people that, you know, think that Nick got the right

1:06:35 sentence. But there's also people who

1:06:36 think that Gypsies should be let out.

1:06:39 Yeah. Or that even that there's people

1:06:42 today saying, you know, there's hashtag free Nick Gordon, that

1:06:45 he's done enough time because you know, he was, he won't, he's

1:06:49 not. Well, I guess they're sort of

1:06:50 inferring that he's not gonna kill anybody else.

1:06:53 He was just on the under the instructions of Gypsy, which I

1:06:55 don't know if I agree with that. I mean, if he was.

1:06:57 Able to be influenced by one person who wants to say he's not

1:06:59 being. He wouldn't be able to be

1:07:01 influenced by somebody else, absolutely.

1:07:03 But look, that that's the way it's sort of all panned out.

1:07:06 Yeah, yeah. There's not a lot about him

1:07:09 really. No sort of recent update Gypsy

1:07:12 and him broke. Up about 12 months into them

1:07:15 after them being arrested. I don't know how they

1:07:18 communicate through jail with that sort of stuff, but they

1:07:21 they were still apparently still together for some time

1:07:24 afterwards. But yeah, that ended and fizzled

1:07:26 out. And but now even Gypsy, now that

1:07:28 she is out of jail, we can say that she served eight years of

1:07:32 her 10 year sentence and was released on parole in December

1:07:36 2023. But yeah, so but she's now got a

1:07:39 part of her parole is that she is to have no contact with Nick

1:07:43 whatsoever. So she can't, you know, be

1:07:44 writing letters to him or contacting him now anyway.

1:07:47 But she has, she has openly said that she feels bad for Nick and

1:07:50 his sentence, but that all she think also she feels he could

1:07:53 have said no to her. Yeah, and not have followed

1:07:55 through. So yeah.

1:07:57 And I to agree with that. Agreed.

1:08:00 I I feel the same. I think I mean, he's stabbed a

1:08:02 woman 17 times. Like, you know, regardless of

1:08:06 what had happened to Gypsy, you know, murder is never the

1:08:11 answer. No, although so Gypsy has said,

1:08:15 you know, she feels guilty about what happened to her mother.

1:08:18 She wishes it didn't happen. She wishes she had been able to

1:08:22 either go to the police or go to a family member reported

1:08:25 earlier. Yeah, but that's just not the

1:08:26 way it was. And that's not the way she was

1:08:28 able to act at the time. So.

1:08:30 It's and it's part of that abuse that she suffered, that

1:08:33 emotional side of it, the emotional and mental abuse that

1:08:36 she endured. Yeah, meant that she didn't

1:08:38 understand what would be available to her.

1:08:41 And you know that her she didn't have a sense that her dad would

1:08:44 support bought her because of the stuff that her mom had fed

1:08:47 her about her dad's belief of her.

1:08:49 Turns out dad is the best person ever that would have absolutely

1:08:54 been there for her and is so there for her now.

1:08:57 And her step and her stepmom, they are both incredible people.

1:09:00 They've really rallied around her from the get go of like from

1:09:03 when this occurred from like, I mean, he's always been part of

1:09:05 her life and stayed around. He's certainly kept his face in

1:09:08 there, but now with DD dead, he's able to come in with the

1:09:12 truth from his perspective and be able to support her through

1:09:15 all of her trial. And now beyond in terms of her

1:09:18 re entry into civilization. You know, and I think that look,

1:09:22 because of the what happened to Gypsy in her, well, as she calls

1:09:27 it, it was a prison already that she was living in under DD.

1:09:31 Going to prison was probably not a bad thing for her for eight

1:09:33 years because she couldn't have even just flipped a switch and

1:09:37 turned off all of that stuff that was there.

1:09:39 She. Said that doesn't, yeah.

1:09:41 That she's had to learn how to well, literally yeah, hygiene,

1:09:47 you know everything but interact with people who are in age.

1:09:50 I think that prisons almost like already been like a bit of a

1:09:53 interim transition anyway, because it in prison she could

1:09:58 learn in a very, you know, well the.

1:10:01 Other different environment gained her education yeah so she

1:10:03 did have a timeline she also she said she when she got to prison

1:10:08 she'd never felt that free in her life yes so it was a

1:10:11 stepping stone yeah. What freedom is actually like

1:10:14 out in the real world because. I mean, if she'd just been let

1:10:17 freedom out into the real world straight from what she was

1:10:19 experiencing, I think that's the thing.

1:10:21 It was she was finding little freedoms in terms of the

1:10:23 evenings when DJ was asleep, and that was leading to her finding

1:10:26 people like Nick. Yeah.

1:10:27 Whereas going to prison, yeah, UK, your meeting is probably

1:10:30 pretty interesting people, but it's, you know, contained.

1:10:33 And she received some the help that she needed in there.

1:10:35 She received psychological support, but.

1:10:37 Only a little bit. So Kim Kardashian, sorry if you

1:10:40 chat with her well. Isn't that?

1:10:42 Isn't that just quite the delight?

1:10:43 Oh gosh. So the two of them are

1:10:45 apparently going to start working together about some

1:10:47 prison reforms. Yeah.

1:10:48 Things I'd love to see what that work entails and where that

1:10:51 leads to. I agree with Kim Kardashian that

1:10:54 this is that that Gypsy could be a great.

1:10:57 Of course I do. That Gypsy could be a great

1:10:59 advocate for the young people in situations like this.

1:11:02 Absolutely. That she could literally have

1:11:04 some great impact on Prison Reform, having lived the

1:11:07 experience of that, because she what she was saying was that she

1:11:10 was not eligible for psychological help.

1:11:13 Well, I. Think she only received there

1:11:15 was only a limited amount which I mean obviously she absolutely

1:11:19 needed it. I can't believe that she

1:11:20 wouldn't qualify. Not for yet for ongoing, yeah.

1:11:24 But the way she talks in her interviews, especially in that

1:11:29 prison confessions of Gypsy Rd. you can tell she's had

1:11:34 psychological support. Definitely.

1:11:36 Just the language she uses, the way that she can sort of say

1:11:40 things from a different perspective, you can tell she's

1:11:42 had some psychological interventions, yes, But clearly,

1:11:45 well, according to her and according to everybody, not by

1:11:48 any stretch of the imagination as much as she needs because.

1:11:52 I I think a lot of though her psychological intervention has

1:11:55 been from peers in in prison, like learning from others in

1:11:59 there. I mean, and I'm the first one to

1:12:00 advocate. Friends are your first and best

1:12:02 psychologists. And they're, you know, usually

1:12:04 free. Yeah.

1:12:05 Usually usually might cost you a coffee, wine.

1:12:09 Yeah. So I mean, I think that friends

1:12:10 that. And obviously she's made some,

1:12:12 you know, great people in, I think in prison have embraced

1:12:14 her and have helped her. And it's been a that's been a

1:12:17 great process for her. Yeah.

1:12:18 And it's worked for her in her term of terms of psychological

1:12:20 help. But professional psychological

1:12:23 help she definitely needs as well.

1:12:25 Yeah. I think she's received.

1:12:26 I hope she has to now. Yeah.

1:12:28 So. While she was in prison, she

1:12:30 became engaged to a pen pal of hers named.

1:12:34 All we knew at the time was his name was Ken, sort of.

1:12:36 She didn't put much out there about the relationship.

1:12:39 In August 2019, they'd split. They were sort of on and off,

1:12:43 you know, a bit on and off during that time.

1:12:45 In June 2022, she announced that she had married a man named Ryan

1:12:50 Scott Anderson. So not the bloke who she'd

1:12:53 originally had been engaged to, been engaged to.

1:12:56 She's released from prison in December of 2023, still married

1:13:01 to Ryan Scott Anderson. And then all of a sudden, well,

1:13:03 it's really quick. It's like.

1:13:05 In in a nanosecond she's bloody now pregnant with Ken Irker's

1:13:09 baby so. Yeah, in on March 28th, she

1:13:11 announced publicly that the she was divorcing Ryan.

1:13:14 Yeah, on April 30th she announced that she had rekindled

1:13:18 her romance and was back on with Ken.

1:13:21 Yeah. And then in the July, I believe

1:13:26 it was, she announced that she was pregnant with her first baby

1:13:28 with Ken. So have you got into any

1:13:30 conspiracies online about all this?

1:13:32 Oh, no. Oh, my God.

1:13:34 So last night I was just, you know, I don't know if you'll

1:13:37 like this, but right before we do a recording like the night

1:13:39 before, I'm always like, oh, my God.

1:13:40 I'm grossly unprepared. I have no idea what I'm talking

1:13:42 about. Once we get going, it's all

1:13:44 fine. It's all in there somewhere.

1:13:46 But last night I was like, oh, my God.

1:13:48 I I don't know much about this part of her life.

1:13:51 Yeah. So somehow actually, I do know

1:13:53 how it's through Reddit, What I found this like this thread that

1:14:00 was basically this, a lot of people picking apart her

1:14:05 pregnancy stories and being like, how did she go from being

1:14:08 11 weeks pregnant in July, you know, the 1st of July 2024 to

1:14:14 being 15 weeks pregnant on the 15th of July 2024?

1:14:18 Oh my God, she's fabricating dates and blah, blah, blah,

1:14:20 blah. But no, when I went and had a

1:14:22 look into it, her dates do all marry the baby wasn't planned.

1:14:28 And I just wonder, like, psychologically, being that

1:14:32 she's only been out of prison for what, now eight months or

1:14:34 something, is she ready to be bringing a baby into this world

1:14:40 with a guy who she's been on and off with but hasn't really been

1:14:45 with because she's been in prison?

1:14:47 She's also had a marriage in there that's then broken down.

1:14:49 Her upbringing was clearly incredibly problematic.

1:14:54 Like, yeah. I.

1:14:55 Can't imagine. I think she's going to need a

1:14:58 lot of support. Absolutely the one.

1:15:00 Thing that I I think. She gets she has it though a

1:15:02 little too. I think the.

1:15:03 One thing that really, like, you know, settled, settled my worry

1:15:07 about this is the fact that her dad and stepmom is so, so, so

1:15:10 involved. Yeah.

1:15:11 And her stepmom is her number one advocate.

1:15:14 Yeah. Her stepmom's there with her all

1:15:16 the way. She's so I, I think for the fact

1:15:19 that she's got that really tight knit family support behind her,

1:15:22 Hopefully everything will work out well.

1:15:23 Yeah. And obviously she's got the

1:15:25 lived experience that she doesn't then want to transfer on

1:15:28 to her own child. I think honestly that her

1:15:31 stepmom is the reason that Gypsy will be OK.

1:15:36 Yeah, honest to God, she has. The way she speaks about her is

1:15:39 like so beautiful. But she sees her for who she is

1:15:42 and the past that she's had. And she talks very honestly

1:15:45 around Gypsy's lies and that that that is part of who Gypsy

1:15:49 was. And that lying was part of her

1:15:51 life and and misleading people and manipulating people.

1:15:56 And she talks about how she they have worked with her to break

1:15:58 her of that and to learn how to not do that.

1:16:02 Because I think, you know, it's really easy to just think that

1:16:05 she's doing that on purpose and that she's, you know, that she's

1:16:08 thinking I will lie about this when I think she's been raised

1:16:11 to just think like that. Yeah.

1:16:13 And therefore not do it naturally.

1:16:14 She's not doing it. It's a very natural thing for

1:16:16 her to do to kind of go, oh, you want me to say it that like that

1:16:19 way. OK, I'll do that.

1:16:21 And so it, I think she's really worked hard with her to like,

1:16:24 go, no, no, no, love, you don't need to lie.

1:16:26 You tell the truth. And she's like, oh God, that

1:16:28 must be really hard to then go switch.

1:16:30 How do I turn my brain to do that?

1:16:32 Yeah, but Gypsy's done really well.

1:16:33 The interviews that I've seen with her now compared to, you

1:16:37 know, when she was with DD and you know, those sets and, and

1:16:40 even even at the beginning of that, like when she went to

1:16:43 prison and that's think from there to now, she's a an

1:16:47 amazingly well adjusted woman, really impressive.

1:16:51 And I think she'll be fine. But I do worry about the baby in

1:16:56 terms of, and I guess it's putting it in that way of like

1:16:59 what if the baby does have a medical issue?

1:17:03 And I'm not saying that, you know, like there's, I don't know

1:17:06 what it would be, but like, and it can be quite minor.

1:17:10 How is she going to be perceived by people?

1:17:12 Like, even if it's real, because people won't believe her because

1:17:15 they think that she'll just do the same as what her mom did.

1:17:17 And I really, I wonder if that's playing on her mind at all of

1:17:20 like, how do I approach those things?

1:17:22 You would hope that she'll be able to find medical

1:17:25 professionals who are sympathetic to her situation.

1:17:29 Yeah. And we'll look at things

1:17:31 objectively. I.

1:17:32 Mean, I know as a as a teacher that you I kind of do the whole

1:17:35 like don't put my blinders on like you think my kids perfect,

1:17:38 but also don't be that that parent who looks too much for

1:17:40 things because I know what I know around child development

1:17:43 and what could possibly be going on.

1:17:45 So I can understand her a bit in the terms of like going like,

1:17:47 you know, I don't want to think too narrowly, but I don't want

1:17:49 to not say things either. Yeah.

1:17:51 Oh, that must. Be I think she's got quite the

1:17:54 path to navigate and look, I mean, as we said, with the

1:17:57 support of her, her dad and stepmom, hopefully that cycle

1:17:59 can be broken because we can see that, you know, Dee Dee

1:18:02 obviously suffered some of that as a child.

1:18:05 We don't know what her mum had endured.

1:18:07 We don't know that sort of story.

1:18:09 Yeah. But obviously this is, you know,

1:18:12 a cycle that has sort of been in this family for a couple of

1:18:15 generations. So let's hope that with them out

1:18:18 of the picture, this will be. The end of that this will be

1:18:20 the. End of it and she'll go on to

1:18:22 have a a, you know, a very healthy and.

1:18:26 Happy child. One thing I do want to question,

1:18:29 I do question a little bit, and I'm intrigued to hear your

1:18:31 thoughts on this. So she's come out of prison and

1:18:34 she said she's only been out of prison for eight months.

1:18:35 And in that time, like, she's. Yeah, divorced a guy, got back

1:18:39 with another guy and fallen pregnant.

1:18:40 She's also had a a nose job. And her teeth done.

1:18:44 Yeah, I. Can get the teeth done, I I

1:18:46 really can because apparently that was really horrific for

1:18:48 her, the way she, and it's impacted her enormously

1:18:52 medically anything. Like her speech, her yeah, even

1:18:55 just like, physically like her, Her, yes.

1:18:57 Like the formation of her mouth was all yeah, wrong.

1:19:01 I can understand that a little bit more.

1:19:03 The the nose is just is cosmetic.

1:19:06 I feel like what do you really want to have more surgeries like

1:19:10 and and she's chosen to have that.

1:19:11 Yeah, I can understand. Having that like, you know,

1:19:14 there's, there's probably a certain vanity to it because she

1:19:18 was made to look a certain way for such a long time.

1:19:21 And she says now in interviews that she's she's actually

1:19:25 finally happy with the way she looks.

1:19:27 So maybe she needed that for a personal sense of, I don't know

1:19:30 if just looking different, but the thing that I actually saw

1:19:34 her and Deedee had the same nose.

1:19:36 They looked their profiles were exactly the same.

1:19:40 So maybe she wanted to take take that away, step away from that

1:19:44 too. I.

1:19:44 Think it's a little bit too that, I mean, she's someone now

1:19:46 who's, you know, she's not necessarily wanted to be in

1:19:49 their public eye, but she's in the public eye.

1:19:52 I think she likes being in the public.

1:19:54 Life, I think she likes it. Absolutely.

1:19:55 We don't think it's maybe like the IT was necessarily from the

1:19:57 get go where she was aiming for herself.

1:20:00 But it's clearly that's where she's going to go and she'll

1:20:02 keep going with that. And I guess as you and I both

1:20:05 know, now that, you know, you're putting a camera in front of

1:20:07 yourself more than ever, I guess there is that vanity point of

1:20:11 like, you know, well, if I'm going to have to be on screen,

1:20:12 I'm going to put my face out there.

1:20:14 I won't be happy with it. Yeah.

1:20:16 Yeah. Yeah, look, I can understand

1:20:18 that. And obviously, yeah, she was

1:20:23 clearly OK with it. I mean, she's gone ahead and had

1:20:24 it done. No one forced it.

1:20:25 This was probably no. No, I guess it was a choice.

1:20:27 Full control over. Yeah, true, Yeah.

1:20:30 Who knows? Yeah.

1:20:32 Anyway, do you have anything else to add to the Gypsy Rd.

1:20:34 Blanchard story? I just good.

1:20:36 Luck to her. I hope that her life is.

1:20:39 I hope she gets to have the life she really wanted.

1:20:42 And she's admitted she really does understand that Disney love

1:20:45 stories don't actually happen. So I hope that she's on a path

1:20:48 now. And yeah.

1:20:49 Her baby's due in January of 2025, so I guess watch this

1:20:53 space around that too. I hope she just does.

1:20:56 Like positive things with what where she's at now.

1:20:58 And like, I hope she does move forward with them.

1:21:00 If she's going to be public eye, I hope she takes the route of

1:21:03 speaking up for people who are vulnerable and making positive

1:21:07 changes by. All accounts I think she has.

1:21:09 I think the fact that she released the the docu series I

1:21:14 wanted. That in Australia, How come?

1:21:15 Where can I view that I? Don't know.

1:21:18 I found my ways. We'll discuss it later.

1:21:20 I don't need. But.

1:21:21 But the fact that she was willing to put herself out there

1:21:24 in that respect as well to to teach people about her

1:21:27 experience, I think that goes a long way.

1:21:29 Yeah. And I mean, you know, if you had

1:21:30 the opportunity to work with Kim Kardashian on Prison Reform.

1:21:33 I was gonna say if she's gonna work with Kim Kardashian.

1:21:35 Kim Kardashian. She'll be fine.

1:21:37 How? Do the Kardashians make it into

1:21:39 nearly every episode? I think this is the. 3rd like

1:21:41 it's bad. Well, they are everywhere, let's

1:21:45 be honest. Yeah, true.

1:21:46 True, true. All right, well, I think that

1:21:48 we'll leave it here for this week, but thank you to everybody

1:21:51 for listening. If you've got any comments or

1:21:53 questions or anything that you want to say about the episode,

1:21:56 leave it in the comments because we love seeing what people have

1:21:59 to say. We love it when conversations

1:22:01 are sparked by something people, yes, a comment people will make.

1:22:04 Our next episode is on the Easy Street Murders and the two

1:22:09 Sousas. I find this, this case really

1:22:12 intriguing, intriguing. It happened in in Melbourne in

1:22:16 Australia and it's a it's a really fascinating case, really

1:22:20 tragic story as well. So stay tuned for that next

1:22:24 week. Fantastic.

1:22:26 Can't wait. Very excited all.

1:22:28 Right. Stay curious, crime besties.

1:22:31 See. Ya.