Episode 16 - Gypsy Rose Blanchard

0:15 Welcome back for our What is this? Oh my God, is this our 15th episode of Two Crime Besties? Yay. Hi, Emma. Hey, Meg, how's it going? Good, good. How are you? Very good. I'm very excited to be here for episode 15. I feel like it was only days ago that we were recording like episode one and two, and now we're in episode 15. So that's really exciting, yeah. It's, yeah, it's rolling along so smoothly now. It's like just this is our routine and this is what we do. And I love it. Me. Too me. Too. Yeah, Fridays are my favorite day of the week.

0:48 Me too. That's our record day. Tuesdays are my second favorite day 'cause we really sound new one. So stay tuned. Yeah, every Tuesday we release our new episode, and yeah, this one's gonna be, this one's gonna be a good one. But today we're talking about Gypsy Rd. Rose Blanchard, MM HMM and DD Blanchard. So I think it's probably the most famous Munchausen by Proxy case. Yeah, you know. Known around the world, Yep. Yeah. But before we get into that, how has your week been? Yeah, pretty good, pretty good.

1:18 We've had a yeah, I've had sick kids this week and stuff like that. So it's been the juggle, you know, managing work and kids and stuff like that. But yeah, no, it's not a bad week. We had. Yeah. What about you? What have you been up to? You had a cool weekend last weekend, though. We did, and we haven't caught up on it yet. No. So this was part of our media blackout just so that we could have something to talk about on the podcast. So for my birthday this year, my husband and kids gave me a picnic treasure hunt.

1:46 It's such a great concept. But basically there's a company that is pretty much only one company, I think really around their traps that do it. It's called Amazing Co Yeah, we're not sponsored by them, but hell is they wanted to sponsor us. Please do. We had such a great, such a great day. So the premise behind it is you, you, you nominate the day that you're going to do the picnic and the region. So the, the company, we're based in Victoria, in Australia and there are lots of different regions around the state where you can do it.

2:17 And we chose to do it in the Macedon Ranges because that's not a place that we go to very often. And so it starts off the night before and they send you a message and you, you get a clue and you've got to solve the clues so that you can get that you're like the first destination. Yeah. And it tells you roughly like a time frame in which to be there. So we we trot on off and the first stop for us was Trentham. And we picked up like a little picnic basket thing with some cheese and biscuits and some olives, I think.

2:50 And then we you get your next clue. You have to solve that. Pressure how? What if you don't solve the clue? It's actually like if you don't solve the clue, there's something. Wrong. Oh, OK, cool. All right. No, no worries. I might struggle, that's all. No, no, no, no. The. Kids were able to sort that out for. Us. Oh wow, that's really. Cool. And they thought it, they thought it was great that they they could solve it. Yeah. And then every place you go to, you pick up another, you know, a few more bits and pieces for your picnic.

3:18 Yeah. One of the stops that we stopped at was a a spot just for the kids. It was this really cool Cafe in Kindon. Yeah. And they made-up like a little kids pack for the kids. And yeah, it was really well done. Everywhere we went knew we were coming. And so it was really well organised. And then it ended in a picnic at Hanging Rock. Oh, lovely. Yeah, there's another case for us. Absolutely. That's why I said, well, I'm here. I'll need to do a bit of research for our next, for a potential future case.

3:45 But yeah, so it was really good fun, fantastic day out. Highly recommend it. Well done Peter, nice choice. Great job I was. I was so stoked when they gave me that for my birthday. Yeah, what? A lovely day out and it was a full day. We were gone from sort of 8:30 or so in the morning and home at 4:30. So it was a really great day out and. I'm guessing you probably tried some different things foods wise instead of the from the region that you otherwise wouldn't even know to go and find. So that's really got some really.

4:08 Nice breads and I was just really, really fun. And the weather was beautiful too. I think that helped. That helps for sure, especially this time of year. You don't know what you're gonna get sometimes, but yeah. Oh, that's so nice. Yeah, so lots and lots of fun. And the kids loved it too. I thought I was a bit not worried, but I thought maybe they'd get a bit bored, but they didn't. There was enough for them to to keep them entertained, and enough stops along the way that it. Was really good. Family Day out it was.

4:33 Really nice. Wholesome of you all. Oh, I know, so wholesome. That's us in a nutshell. Well, some weekends. Oh, that's really cool. Oh well, I'll have to check that out. Properly, definitely give it a go. Yeah, we'll have to do another one, like a girls one or something. One weekend in another. Region, Yeah, yeah, Get some wine. So I was. Going to say, well, top of the list. Please, there was a winery stuff in there and we did get a bottle of wine, so that wasn't the worst thing ever. All right. Should we get into today's case?

5:04 Let's well, first of all, I was going to say before we get into the actual topic of the case, let's hit off with just a shout out of like hitting up our subscription on that playlist that you're playing on right now. Whatever app you're on, hit that subscribe or that follow button. Because, you know, if you wanna come back and listen to the next episode, then you've, you're with us, you're with us. That's the best way we can spread it out there. Yeah, our subscriber base is slowly growing, but we'd really like to see it.

5:31 We know how many people are listening to every episode, and we don't even have close to that many subscribers. So if we can kind of build up our subscriber base, it will. It really helps us to get our show out to more people. So yeah, absolutely. Definitely no thank you everybody. But let's get into this case. It is it's a real good. It's a it's a juicy one for sure. And it's certainly like one that's relevant right now, even to this point. So we can start right back to the beginning. But I don't even almost don't know where to start with this because I feel like we wherever we start, there's kind of like a preamble to that one as well.

6:03 So everyone sort of has this background history that kind of links to each other. I feel like we should start with Gypsy's birth and then kind of we can. Go back and forward. Yeah, I feel like that's probably the best, yeah. Yeah, well, Gypsy was born on the 27th of July in 1991. Her parents were Claudine Blanchard and Rod Blanchard. They'd been married. Well, so at the time of Gypsy's birth they'd been within the pregnancy. They'd been married and divorced. So Didi found out she was pregnant. Rod being a good Christian, well, he was a child.

6:43 Actually, he was. 17 years old when Didi fell pregnant, 18 years old when they got married and 18 years old by the time still 18 years old when Gypsy was born. They got married because Dee Dee was pregnant, Rod says. He was never really in love with her. I think Dee Dee was hugely in love with him, infatuated with him. Yeah, but they got divorced about a month. Was it before Gypsy was born? Not very long. There was so there was an age gap too, like she was 24, Claudine at the time to Rod to Ken's Ron.

7:18 Sorry, Rod, Rod, let's get the names right. There's seven names here. Rod, He was only 17 to her 24. I believe she might have lied about of age, her age and said she was about 21. She did, which I mean, this day and age, if this was now we all have a bit of an uproar of like this 17 year old marrying a woman, you know, like in the age gap between them. Like, I mean, I don't know if that was I've spoken about at the time or what. But I probably not. There was nothing controversial about it, I don't think.

7:45 I think because of the fact that they were in this Christian community and she was pregnant, You just that was what you did. You had to get married. There was no other option. Rod sort of saw obviously throughout those few months that they were married that this wasn't for him. And he there are a lot of interviews with him on the Internet on YouTube. You can just Google them. He's a lovely man. He's like, I have a real soft spot for him. Every time I see him interviewed or speaking about Gypsy and about Dee Dee even, I have a lot of respect for him.

8:18 Absolutely. He's a good Southern man. Was they would say, I guess, very gentle. Very. Gentlemanly. Yeah, for sure. They were married, they get divorced. Gypsy's born. And I mean. Things start pretty early on they. Really do. Yeah, they really, really do. Yeah. So from three months of age that she was already DD was take. Oh, sorry. Claudine went by the name DD. So we'll probably refer to her as DD, I'm guessing throughout this. So they feel the same. Everything I kept reading was DD. Yeah. So she went by the name DD.

8:51 So she by about 3 months of age. When Gypsy was three months of age, she was taking her to the doctors, believing there was something wrong with her sleeping, that she had sleep apnea and DD also. She was also, previously to this, a nurse's assistant. So she had some medical knowledge of sorts, I guess. But so she believed there was something upset up, something wrong with the sleeping patterns of date of, of, sorry, Gypsy. But I mean, what 3 month old doesn't have like, you know, issues with sleeping.

9:20 They regress around that stage. All these sorts of things go on. So she did go after the doctors, and they all said there was nothing wrong, but DD was convinced that there was sleep apnea happening. Yeah, so. I, I guess as a doctor at that point, you'd, and especially as the parent of a young child, you have to advocate for your child. So if you say that there's something going on, of course you're going to be pushing and pushing and pushing for that. And I would, I would imagine that the medical professionals, you know, they rely on parental account of what's happening and parental, you know, parents giving an accurate representation of what's happening so that that can assist in their diagnosis.

10:00 I've got a perfect technology of that with like my own child at about he was about 12 months old and jumped out of his high chair and he hurt himself and I was beside myself and I could see the way he landed. I 'cause I witnessed it happened kind of thing. I could see how he landed was very awkward and how much he was crying at the time. And then by the time I got to the hospital, he wasn't crying. And they, they just said to me, you know, I don't think he's broken anything. He's fine. They checked.

10:26 I was more worried about concussion, to be really honest. But I'm like, no, but his hand, he's not like crawling, like he's not putting any pressure on it. Like, yeah, no, he's fine. It's probably just a bit bruised, but you know, you know, just a bit of a strain or something. No worries. And I would like, can we just X-ray it to be sure? And that they tried to fob me off and like, no, no, no, he's fine. Go home. And I would just prefer that if we go home that we've had an X-ray and you've told me it's fine than just walking out of here.

10:47 They ended up X raying it and lo and behold, it was broken. So he'd broken his wrist. So the doctor actually said to me at the time he goes, I've just learned a massive lesson to listen to mum. He goes, I really should have heard you and not fobbed you off. Like he and I, I felt, you know, validated at that point that it was broken. But holy crap, my 12 month old now has a plastic cast on his arm. And you feel like an awful parent. But. But yeah, the doctors need to listen to parents 'cause they know their kid the best.

11:13 Yeah, but sometimes I guess, and, and it is rare, but it happens. Incredibly rare. Yeah. That parents take that too far. Yeah, yeah. And in this case, like Didi absolutely had taken it too far the I guess the inferences And look, we we are never going to know Didi's side of the story from this, but from all accounts she was devastated that Rod had left her. And I just wonder whether this was a cry for attention right from the get go. From everything I can gather, Rod wanted to be involved in Gypsy's life.

11:54 He was working, paying child support. He wanted to be involved, but he didn't want to be with Dee Dee. And I think that really upset Dee Dee. She got attention right from the get go at three months of age with Gypsy I, And I just wonder whether that was the catalyst behind. I mean, we'll go into DD's past and. And there's definitely things in DD's past that that inform her her behaviour around this time and then into the future. I just wonder whether this was a catalyst that kind of really got that going.

12:27 Yeah. Is that she wanted Rod's attention. What do you think? Well. Yeah, a little bit of that, but also then the other way. I think she got attention for being a single mum too, because she then wanted to really sort of give Gypsy the idea as she got older that her dad didn't want any part of her life, even though he he did and very, very clearly did. He sent letters, he rang, he caught like he called regularly. He would try to see her. He would. He definitely had time with her. He ended up having his own, another family and he's got daughter and a son from that marriage, I believe.

12:58 Yeah. So they so so Gypsy had half siblings and so she would go and spend time with them. But Dee Dee would tell Gypsy that he wanted a son and you're you're not a son and so therefore he doesn't really want you and. That's why he left, yeah. And that's why he left. That's what she that was always what she told Gypsy is the story. So I think she kind of wanted Gypsy to hate her dad or maybe equally hate him as much as she did for leaving. Like I know it was maybe way her way of getting that. Other stories about Rod as well, saying that he once threw Gypsy across the room and she hit the wall.

13:31 Oh, God. Yeah. And And Dee Dee like was adamant that this had happened. And obviously now Gypsy knows that that didn't happen. But she that was her truth as a as a young, young girl, she thought her dad had abused her. Yeah. But like Gypsy, I'm gonna get these names all confused. Sorry. Don't mind me, It must be Friday. DD hid like letters and things from him for for to gypsy which you know like and. She she said he never provided support like Gypsy thought that he'd never contributed. But he regular it's proven he regularly paid child support.

14:01 There wasn't a time when he didn't not he even paid more than what he needed to in a lot of instances, especially around Gypsy illnesses and and additional needs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy, isn't it? Yeah. Should we talk a little bit about DD's past? I think we. Go back a bit here. Yeah. And talk about were what's informing her behavior in terms of these medical needs now for Gypsy that ramp up pretty quickly from there. Yeah. Yeah. So, So Dee Dee was born to Emma and Claude Pitry, I think. I think that's it.

14:31 Petrie, say it, yeah. So she had an interesting life herself. She was diagnosed with a heart murmur at a young age. Yeah, she. Was four, I think, when she was diagnosed with the murmur. Yeah, so. Apparently she was basically her mum overprotected her with this heart murmur and didn't allow her to do much and kept her kind of wrapped up in cotton wool, I guess because of this heart murmur. So there's a little bit of maybe that rubbing off on her then maybe in the future of like taking these illnesses a little bit further than they needed to be.

14:59 But she's also a pageant girl and got a lot of attention for that. From what? From what the family members sort of say, they were very much like Dee. Dee was a bit of a brat and was quite rude and obnoxious and whether that was because she was getting attention from pageants and things like that. But she was quite an unusual sort of kid as she grew up. And then that actually evolved into her doing things like doing writing fraudulent checks and she maxed out her mum's credit card after she died.

15:30 But there's a lot of things that went on with her in terms of her life and her. So her dad and her mum split up and his her dad remarried and she did not get along with her step mum and did not like her at all. Now there is a few stories out there around what what happened there and one that I sort of saw pop up a few times was that she potentially poisoned her stepmom with roundup slowly like giving her small amounts through. Dosing her with Roundup. Yeah, and she did die. And what I, I found it really hard to find information out, but what I did find was that she died a very slow and painful death.

16:08 Yes, so was that and I it's never been proven at all, but the sort of death she had could have been due to micro dosing of Roundup or from what I could kind of put things. Together. I I feel the same way, Like everything that I looked at sort of pointed towards that. There's also the conjecture around the death of her biological mother and the inference that so her mum was in a nursing home type of situation, but I think it was more like an assisted living facility. It wasn't a full nursing home.

16:40 Yeah, a full high care nursing home and Dee Dee would go and care for her. Carer as such in terms of that facility. You know, going on a daily basis, the inference is that she starved her mother to death. She withheld food she withheld. Food. And her mother as well died what is thought to be a premature death due to Dee Dee's, I guess, neglect or, I don't even know, abuse. Yeah. And so she's got, you know, that on her hand, she's got the the death of her mum, the death of her stepmother. Her dad's a bit of a curious.

17:20 Character, that's an interesting one again, isn't it? Should we get into that now? There's so there was allegations of later in with Gypsy when she was around about sort of from 4 onwards I would say, or even from 2 even. Gosh, yeah. That there's allegations that he was sexually molesting her. I am on the fence of this, of whether or not this is true. The way he reacted, Claude, when he was approached with that as a possibility in the documentary that was done. God, I'm not thinking the name of the documentary now.

17:51 Is that the prison one? Yeah, I think it was, yes. Yeah. Which I've got death and. The Well, that's Juriston. Yeah. I, I, I know which one you're talking about. I don't think it was that one. I think it was in the prison confessions of prison confessions. It was, it was that one. No, you're right. It was the prison confessions of Gypsy Rose. Yeah, yeah. He was interviewed and asked about these allegations. And the way Claude responded was that, oh, she was, it was the four year old, you know, her fault.

18:17 She she would put her hand on me and things like that. And that gave. Me, the absolute creeps. And the fact that he reacted in that way makes me think, Oh my God, I can't even imagine what went on. Yeah, just gross. It gave me the absolute heebie jeebie. Totally, really didn't. I don't rate that man at all. No, I mean, look at if that was the only piece of evidence of of what was going on, what went on, I would have been like, oh God, this happened. You know that he's blaming a four year old for, you know, this is disgusting.

18:49 But I think the layer of lying that Dee Dee and then who, how she taught Gypsy to lie, it's really hard to believe them. I I agree, but I agree it was the way he answered that question, though, that really made my skin crawl. And I've just like that feeling. Yeah, well, something untoward's happened here. Yeah. We don't know what. No specifics. We don't know. But that's. When you can't get anymore out of it because. That's right. You can't tease out from everything. Even Gypsy admits herself that she has memories, that she doesn't know whether they're true or not, because the things that Dee Dee has like drilled into her head and she.

19:27 That's right. She even questions whether some of what she thinks was her lived experience was actually that. Yes. And that's where I then go like, oh, how are we gonna we can't know this. So if. If you hadn't sexually abused a child, if someone asked you that question, you'd be like, Oh my God, no, that never happened, no. His reaction really throws a spanner because like, yeah, that's where I can't. If I did, until I heard him speak about it, I'm like, did that happen? And then the way he answered it, I'm like, wait, guilty.

19:55 Hang on, wait. Honestly. Maybe. There's something here. So it does. It really just throws you. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, they haven't done themselves any justice. I think DD and Gypsy for what could be truths of what is shit and should not happen. You then can't believe them when they, you know, on these things because of the rest of it all. Like, yeah. That's it, Yeah. A family background and maybe a little bit about why Dede became the way she became. Or I mean, you know, there's a pattern of behavior over her.

20:28 Absolutely. Pattern of behavior for sure, and it. Absolutely. And it just ramps up once Gypsy's born and she's obviously now got this child that she can use to further her 'cause. Yeah, I think the other thing that is really interesting, so she was married to Rod for all of six months, or less than six months, I think it was in the end, she kept his surname. Yeah. Yeah, that. I find really interesting, yeah. And look, I guess I can speak to that for your, for your child. I can understand keeping the surname and you know that you'd have to have dad's permission to be able to change her surname.

21:02 So she obviously wasn't going to get that. And I totally back Rod in that sort of and saying, well, why would she have to change her name when he wants to be part of her life? Yep, totally she should. That shouldn't have to happen. So I guess hanging on to it for that reason. OK. Yeah, fair. Cool. Yeah. I just wonder, like, you know, they were married for less than six months. They divorced before Gypsy was born. But I get. I see what you're saying. She wanted to have the same surname as her child and I. Think, I mean, again, it plays into the fact of like how she wanted to be linked to to Gypsy.

21:28 Yeah. You know, I think different personality types would be like I'm, I'm done with that part of my life in terms of the link to him. But you know, that's fine. My kids got their surname, but I'm going to move my life and have a different career or a different whatever, you know, different life without that person that I can change my name back. Yeah, but I don't know. She's a different personality to most, I think. Different personality, yeah. So I guess we're at Gypsies. 3 months sort of age now and she's had this well.

21:59 So Dee Dee told Rod that Gypsy had stopped breathing. Whether or not that's true, we don't know. There was definitely no no apneas detected when Gypsy did a sleep study, but they still gave her a sleep monitor to take home. So Dee Dee's obviously using that one thing Gypsy was born with was a lazy eye. Have you seen photos of her as a baby? Oh no. Actually. So as a really little baby, she does have a really badly lazy eye and. So much. So that they interviewed on that documentary that I was just talking about the prison confessions of Gypsy Rose Blanchard.

22:37 Yeah. Definitely worth a watch. Yes, it's recent, but it goes all the way back through gypsies life and they showed a photo of her when she was, I think she was about three or four months old and her eyes really lazy. And anyway, they had an ophthalmologist talking about talking about lazy eyes. Yeah, on the documentary. And he basically said, just looking at that, knowing nothing else about the patient, I would say that that would need some corrected correction because otherwise she would not be able to see out of that eye.

23:06 That's how bad, that's how. Bad. It was right, Yeah. And even to look at Gypsy today, you can still see she's got a turned eye, a slightly turned eye. So, yeah, yeah. So that was a legitimate thing that sort of arose and needed correction. But I would imagine, I mean, kids have lazy eyes, are born with lazy eyes all the time. Yeah. And there is treatments for that that can be. Yep for sure. She needed surgery to to assist in the correction of that. She was less than one year of age when she had that surgery, but that was a corrective surgery.

23:43 So nothing further. And warranted, absolutely warranted. Yeah. Nothing further really needed after that. But that's not where things ended, is it not? Not. At all? No. By the time I guess Gypsy got to school age or kindergarten age, DD did enroll her in school. She attended sporadically attended kindergarten and very sporadically attended school up until grade two or year two. Well. From so grade two was roughly, I think when she had the motorbike accident. Yeah, which when I say motorbike accident, your brain can jump immediately to like a very severe, crazy, horrific incident.

24:23 So this is apparently, though a motorbike accident that was with her grandfather Claude that we were talking about earlier where the two of them came off the motorbike together. Which what from those people that saw this incident, it resulted in a scraped knee for Gypsy. However, Dee Dee rushed her off to hospital and the next thing you know, she's been diagnosed with muscular dystrophy. And her leg is in a leg, breast from thigh to calf. Yeah, for a scrape, for a scraped knee. Yeah, so it literally went from a scraped knee to a severely deteriorating disease that, yeah, resulted in her eventually needing to then remain in a wheelchair.

25:05 So it happened very quickly that all of a sudden you have to stay in a wheelchair, you're not going to be able to walk anymore, which just is crazy. So. Gypsy's recount of this was one day her mum came home with a wheelchair, walked into the room and said to her, get in. God, yeah. And Gypsy, I mean, I guess, you know, when you're young, your mom is everything that your mom knows everything. You know, they're. Yeah, they're. Your protector. They're your. They're going to do the right thing by you.

25:37 Trust that they're going to do the right thing by you. Yeah. And 99.99% of moms do do the right thing by their children. Yeah. But in this instance, there was no, no. Well, first of all, there was no muscular dystrophy, second of all. So. So we're going to get to this as well. The way she got the diagnosis she got blows my mind. Absolutely. I mean, she doctor shopped, that's for damn sure. Yeah. Yeah, I in that documentary I was talking about as well, they interviewed a psychologist and she, she wasn't, she's an expert in Munchausen by Proxy, which is we should probably discuss what that is.

26:18 Yep, Yep. Do you have a definition written down there? Well. Actually, to be honest, I believe there's two diagnosis here. I know she's definitely being diagnosed Munchausen by Proxy, which is also. Known as factitious disorder imposed on another. Yeah, yeah. So the other one though that I've heard being thrown around that potentially is not as researched as as that as Munchausen is malingering by proxy. So the basically the definition between the two, the difference is so the Malingo malingering by proxy is a form of maltreatment that involves the caregiver or who fabricates or induces signs of symptoms in a child, which is similar to Munchausen by proxy.

26:56 However, the difference is that it is an external tangible incentive that drives them. Whereas Munchausen by proxy, it's the medical attention that you get from like those that are really sick. Sure. So I but I do believe that she had both going on because when you think about it, she was building up these illnesses that she was getting attention from more and more doctors, more and more people in the world of, you know, that she would get detention from people in the feeding feeding tube community, people from the, you know, the muscular dystrophy community, those people leukemia, they would all, you know, want to, you know, evolve around her.

27:35 And whereas the malingering by proxy is where she would tap into get houses to. Make Disney tradition. Yeah. So it's that. It's the tangible things that you get from that, that attention as opposed to the medical attention that you're getting. Yeah. So I do believe she had both of those going on for her. Yeah. But it's a very thing, a very hard thing to diagnose. Both. Both are very hard to diagnose because they doctor shop and they don't know where the where it begins and where it ends and who's getting the right information.

28:06 That's. It. Yeah, that's exactly right. Where? Does the facts start and the lies begin and. Gypsy being the proxy, she has actually like unknowingly, I think in a lot of ways she's contributed to all of that as well because DD was incredibly manipulative in the way she in the way she groomed Gypsy to go along with everything she said. So I'm just gonna really quickly actually right now, Yep, go through a list of gypsies diagnosis. Yes. And that way we can, when we refer to them, you know, these are things that that DD was able to get official diagnosis or she was able to tell doctors and tell Gypsies, care providers that Gypsy had these things.

28:52 Yeah. So she had sleep apnea. She had a PEG tube, a feeding tube, which is a tube that's inserted directly into her stomach with a port for feeding due to failure to thrive and because apparently she couldn't eat. Yeah, she was diagnosed with leukemia at the age of 8, asthma, vision and hearing impairment, including the lazy eye, muscular dystrophy, seizures and epilepsy. At one point, she said that Gypsy was a quadriplegic, which means she had no use of her arms or legs. But then she downgraded that to paraplegia.

29:28 Now, if someone's a quadriplegic, that's not something you can just get out of and just, you know, rehab out of necessarily. She said she had brain damage, a developmental delay which she actually called mental retardation. Awful term. Respiratory issues, inflamed Airways, teeth issues which were due to medication and poor oral hygiene. She had a salivary glands removed because because DD said that Gypsy was overproducing saliva and she couldn't eat. She had a CPAP machine. She had, she was incontinent.

30:04 She had a heart murmur, which is interesting because DD actually, you know, that relates back to DD's. And she had heart disease, GI reflux, anemia, lung disease, an allergy to sugar and other medication. Now this. Gets that one gets me. Did you how she like got diagnosed with that? Oh no. Oh, so Gypsy told this story and only recently on an interview. So the way she was diagnosed with that was really interesting. So apparently when she for the for I believe it was for the leukemia, she was on a particular medication that turns out she was legitimately allergic to this medication.

30:37 So instead of like going, oh, wow, that's another thing I can, you know, start gain gain sympathy over. She has an allergy to a leukemia medication. Instead of that, she kept giving Jeep Gypsy this medication to induce a higher sort of reaction to it so that she was covered in this rash, went to another doctor altogether and said didn't mention anything about this medication that she was on and said this is what happened when she ate chocolate. So then she ended up with a diagnosis that she was allergic to sugar, but.

31:07 Her main source of nutrition at the time was pedia. Sure, yes. Which is literally sugars like it is. I mean, it's a, it's a high calorie, you know, complete supplement, Yes, which she was being fed to through her PEG port. Which, I mean, she was having that pedia, sure. Like, that's for children. Yeah. But she was basically on that until she was like, you know, 20s. Yes, she was 20. 23 I think she was still. Being fed the pediatial she. Had the pig tube from the time I think up until she was like 23 or 24 years of age, yeah.

31:47 But doesn't that like, I'm sorry, so is there not like a that's a kids version of something? Is there like an adult version that she should have been actually sustigent? Because I'm sure that your needs change of what your body absolutely. Requires. Absolutely. Yeah, because it's grown the calorie needs of a three-year old significantly different from that of a 24 year old. Yeah. And also the, the like, the combination of nutrients. I think Pedia show was recommended up until about 10 years of age.

32:13 Yeah. But Didi wanted to keep Gypsy small and little and like a child. Lutely. Even at 24 years of age, you look at photos of her and you think she looked like a teenager. She did. A young teenager. And she was. So little and so petite. And there was not a lot of her, no. I mean, to the point where I believe like a neighbour who was actually a year older than her believed that she was like an like she acted like an older sister to her at times because she believed she was like a good six years older than her, significantly older, but she was only one.

32:43 She was actually old only. No, she was one year younger. That's right. She was one year younger. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. It's probably worth noting here as well. Throughout Gypsy's life she never really knew what her actual date of birth was. I think, well, year of birth is probably more accurate. DD told her in certain circumstances that she was born in either 1993 or 1995, not 1991. So she believed she was either two or four years younger than what she actually was. Yeah. She sort of, she actually told Rodded at one point when he called to speak to say happy birthday to her for her 18th birthday.

33:24 She, I mean, he was, I feel for him in this situation. He didn't know it was what truth was, but so he he believed that she was a sick kid, you know, kind of thing. But he rang to wish her happy birthday and Dee Dee said do not say happy 18th birthday. She doesn't know she's 18 because she's the intellectual age of like younger that she was. So she basically convinced Rod to lie about her age because of this intellectual disorder that she had and. Also, I think part of the reasoning for that also according to Rod, was that she she had a life expectancy.

33:56 Well, this changed according to what suited DD. Yeah, but at some point that she had a life expectancy to the age of 20. So DD is like, I don't want her to know that she's 18 because. She's now a couple. Of years, yeah, that's interesting. We've got a couple of years left, you know, so he, he sort of took that on and went, oh, of course I'm not, don't want to distress my daughter. Yeah, yeah. So, and if you're if you're led to believe she has an intellectual disorder, that it's not going to make any difference for her, for this child is potentially going to die, you know, you know, at a very young age, bugger it.

34:25 Just go along with and wish her happy birthday without saying mentioning her age. You know, I can totally understand that. Absolutely. But yeah, it was basically so that, but she didn't have an intellectual disorder, which is very clear to this day that she did not have an intellectual disorder and she was not sick enough that she was gonna be dying so. She blows my mind looking at interviews with her now. Yeah. And, you know, she's had an education and a a sporadic education at that to grade 2.

34:51 She's then completely. She well, Didi said she homeschooled it. That never happened. She's an incredibly intelligent woman. Yeah, I think she's. Very well spoken. She's considered she's she's, she's very impressive considering everything she's been through. Definitely. And I mean, I think she was coached more than educated. I believe that, you know, DD would have like spoken to her about how to, how to speak certain ways, how to get the right attention. So I think she's been, she's very well spoken because that's what she's done for her whole life is, you know, yeah, be interviewed, et cetera, about her, her illnesses and all these sorts of things.

35:29 So she's had to present a certain way. But she's certainly just at the core of her own being an intelligent person because she's got to where she is now. And. Yeah. And she seems to be doing well in that. Yeah. That's it. We can get to the now. Yeah, we're still a few pages away. Yeah. Yeah. DD just blows my mind. So in order to, I guess, assist with all this doctor shopping and whatnot, she would move places as well. So this also further isolated her from contact with her dad. And so that's why he didn't necessarily he he would go for a long, long periods of time without seeing her because they lived so far away from one another.

36:10 So in two August of 2005, they were implicated in Hurricane Katrina. Yeah. So they were living in in Slidell, LA, at the time, is that right? Yeah. And when Hurricane Katrina hit, they were living in a, in a unit of sorts. And they their house, like you can see photos online as well of their house was destroyed by Hurricane Katrina legitimately. Legitimately and yeah I mean anyone in caught up in that it was horrific it was awful so yeah they're legit it hit them, but they she used it to their advantage then well she.

36:44 Did so one of the things that really got me was she never contacted Rod and so the other so Rod about when Gypsy was about one year of age, Rod met and then married Christy Blanchard, his now. Wife His. Now wife they've they're still married to this day. I rate her so. Same she. Is awesome and she really took Gypsy on and took her on wholeheartedly. Her heart is in the right place. She cares so much for her, but she in the documentary, she is interviewed throughout and she basically said when Katrina hit, they had no idea what had happened to Dee Dee and Gypsy.

37:26 They didn't know if they were alive or dead for like, I think it was over a week, yeah. I I bet Dee Dee loved that, you know, like that whole idea of people thinking, oh, my gosh, what's happened to them? Like, but they were safe. The house was, yes, destroyed, but they were safe. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And they also do that to people. Horrible. Yeah. Like that's a form of abuse in and of. Absolutely. Yeah. But as you said, DD used the fact that that they were in Katrina to her advantage and by 2008 they relocated to Springfield, MO because Habitat for Humanity built them a purpose built house, Yeah.

38:05 Like, like, you know, as in wheelchair access and everything. Yeah, for this wider. Door frames access like into the shower and toilet Yeah, like wheelchair access throughout the house Why all of the stuff that all the. Stuff they need. Well, well, they didn't. Receive Me The house was baby pink with white trim. Which was beautiful looking you know her was Gypsy's favorite colour They you know she was way into a Cinderella and Princess and all these sorts of things another. Way of Dee Dee keeping her like sort of juvenile.

38:36 Yeah. Yeah. Around this time as well, she really started pushing Gypsy sort of into the media. There was a lot of media, media attention around their situation and the fact they'd been in Katrina. That was definitely a topic that, you know, people wanted to know about these beautiful, you know, very human stories about, of survival and what people had been through. She, this was around the time she got the Make a Wish grant. So they've obviously been given a house through Habitat for Humanity. They went on a Disney trip.

39:09 They had a backstage pass to a Miranda Lambert concert. The gifts were coming from the community, from all over. The United States would send them checks, cash in envelopes, but they were just. Raking it in raking. It in, yeah. She was even awarded child of the year in 2007 by I believe it was a feeding tube community as well, like. So that would have come with a few perks and accolades. Yeah. And she didn't need that feeding tube. There's kids out there who genuinely need help and money and yeah, and.

39:44 They were taking it all when Gypsy talks about like how she was, I guess, involved with all of this. Dee Dee would physically control her as well as emotionally, mentally, all of those things. So she would grab, hold her, hold her hand and say that in inverted commas. And if Gypsy wasn't toeing the line or saying the right thing, she'd squeeze so that Gypsy knew she had to, you know, take a step back. Like it was all unspoken but. Gypsy knew what she had to do, yeah, in order to survive that. Another one that I read, actually, no, it was Gypsy actually explained this, which I think is awful, and it was her way of keeping her.

40:23 Little was that once she got her period. Did you? Yeah. I thought this was awful. So instead of showing her how to use pads or tampons, Dee Dee insisted that she wear a diaper when she'd get her. Period. Yeah, like. At this point, this was right up until fairly late into her teens, and then it's just. She said that a woman in prison. So again, we're jumping a bit here, but a woman in prison taught her how to use tampons. She didn't know how to. Yeah. And even then, like, up until she was in her 20s, she was still wearing diapers, nappies.

40:55 Yeah. When she had her period, she didn't know she'd. Wear adult nappies, Yeah. Yeah, she didn't. It's horrible. The other thing, just Speaking of sort of that personal hygiene and taking care of yourself. Gypsy said that when she was left to her own devices after Dee Dee's death, she had to learn how to look after herself. She had never, she'd never had to wash herself, brush her own teeth. Like everything about the sort of self-care and hygiene, none of that had been taught to her. So as a 20 something year old girl woman, sorry.

41:34 Yeah, she's learning those basic life skills because Dee Dee had just controlled literally everything, every aspect of her life. Well, she. Was literally a little girl in a woman's body at that point. Yeah, and. A woman's body, you know, undergoing changes and you know, and probably. Impacted quite severely in terms of the medications she was on to like I'm sure it would. Those medications were doing a lot more harm than good because they certainly weren't treating anything. No, in terms of what they were meant to be treated.

42:04 Sedate or give gypsy sedatives if they were going out in public sometimes just to keep her, you know, docile and. Looking. Sick, looking sick and looking delayed for her age, like showing that she has the mental capacity. I think she used to say she's like an 11 year old. Yeah, 7:00. Year old or? 11 year old, I can't remember. She basically said she's. About 5 four to five years younger than she actually was. Almost she. But Dede would also self medicate too. At night she would. Takes. Take sleeping pills and so that she was well and truly out at night, which is when Gypsy would then go Well, I can get out of my wheelchair.

42:38 I don't, you know, like, yeah, I would, it dawned. On her. Like, Gypsy knew she could walk. Yeah. It's not like she. She knew she could wait there. And she absolutely would. Yes, in the privacy of her own home, she knew she wasn't allowed to walk in front of other people. She would. Question it with her mum, but yeah, she would just be told you don't know what I know and you need to stick on this story. Like, yeah, yeah. In February, so she's undergoing all these hormonal changes to she's become a woman.

43:06 February 2011 they they go to a convention. So Gypsy was really into is it like like comic type? Like a comic play. You'd call it like kind of things she'd loved yeah any of those like dress up stuff and like yeah, sci-fi. She was just sci-fi into Disney and because. All she had in her life was literally watching movies. Yes, Dee Dee didn't let her do anything. Yes. She had Star Wars and all those and yeah. So they went to this convention. So Gypsy was actually 19 at the time, but thought she was 15.

43:41 Yeah, and at this convention she met a 35 year old man who I think he was there as a stall holder or something. Yeah, Yep. Damn. And he they sort of started a bit of a, an online fringe. Yeah, he well, at this stage she had a computer that she was keeping hidden from. Somehow she hid that from DDI think she purchased it. When like they'd gone to a mall, I don't know how she got the money. I think she got the money because people used to send them cash and she just was managed to get her hands on however much money you needed for a laptop back in the day.

44:16 And she managed to get the laptop when Didi went off to get some food while they were at a mall. And she like really quickly made the purchase, shoved it in a in a. Wheel back into a wheelchair or something, yeah. And then that's how. Yeah, yeah. So she had this laptop, so she had a Facebook profile and this Dan that when she they met at the convention, he found her online on her Facebook page when he got home. So they started communicating. Yeah, yeah. He. Was 35 years of age and he was. Told she was 15 as much as she was 19.

44:46 I so technically legal, but from all accounts for like what Gypsy believed she was 15 and this guy was being told she was 15, which I just find that what gross and it meant that he so that he didn't then just kind of go huh, weird that I have this attraction to her like but she's so young. Let it go. He went Oh no, I'll find her online. I'll. Pursue this a little further. Yeah, yeah.

45:11 They ended up meeting up and nothing happened. As in like they it the relationship didn't turn sexual because DD found them. Yeah, so. Crazy how she haunted her down. Yeah, haunted. Her down, I think she was, in the end, she was away from DD for less than four hours. Like DD was able to track her down and find her. They were at a hotel or something, yeah. Something like that. And basically, so this is a direct quote from Gypsy, DD said to her. If you ever try to do that again, I'm going to smash your fingers with a hammer.

45:44 Yeah, well, no, she, well, she smashed her computer because she found that she did. She. Smashed the computer, she found a phone, Yep, laptop. Smashed them and apparently at this point also chained her to her bed for two weeks. Gypsy talks about this in the documentary that she was made to go to the toilet in a bucket beside the bed. Yeah, she soiled herself. And she was. Turned up by a dog leash. Yeah. So that and the other end was on. It was with D, with with DD, so that she'd know if she moved, Yeah.

46:11 It's just horrific. So, you know, these things were escalating. Gypsy obviously had this desire within her. She needed and wanted friends. She needed and wanted to explore that side of herself. Like she's a developing woman. She had needs that clearly were not being met. Yes. And you know, what did Dee Dee expect was going to happen? Yeah. Well, she expected her to stay a child for the rest of her life, I think she thought. That I don't think she thought this through, No. Back to this point, no.

46:41 That there aren't natural biological things that occur that mean you grow up and that, you know, you have needs, as you say. And so she was and she was so confused by that. I can only imagine how confusing that would be to be thinking, why am I thinking like this when I'm this child that doesn't think like that, You know, where are these thoughts coming from and how what they all mean? Because she's never been. It's never been explained to her. Yeah. That's it. She did have that neighbour that you were talking about, yes, sort of she thought was her her biggest sister.

47:12 But, you know, yeah, actually very, very similar age. And they were talking one day and this girl had a boyfriend. And she's like, oh, how did you meet your boyfriend? And she found out there was some Christian dating site. And so Gypsy was desperate for a boyfriend of her own. She went on the site. I don't know how she got hold of another laptop. Probably in a similar way I think. She pinched her mum's when she'd go to sleep because she was so out of it. I think she'd go and get her mum's OK. Yeah.

47:36 And she, so she joined up to this Christian dating site and she met a man by the name of Nicholas Go to John and they developed. So this is 2012 now. They developed a relationship over the next 2 1/2 years. Secret to Didi. Didi had no idea it was all Yeah. When Didi was asleep. Didi had a lot of chronic health issues herself. She certainly didn't look after herself. She developed over this time. She developed like diabetes. She had, I think she had sleep apnea or something like that as well. She wasn't a healthy woman by any stretch of the imagination, physically or mentally.

48:12 Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, I think Gypsy used that to her advantage to sort of be able to stay up when her mum had sort of passed out for the night. Yeah. And start her life. Would basically begin once, you know, once DD was asleep. She could actually be who she really was, I guess, you know, And eat. Sugar and. Yeah walk walk around yeah and contact her boyfriend yeah which at 19 or you know no she was probably no she was older than this sorry 2012 so she would have been 22 ish 2122 Yep at this stage I mean yeah every 2122 year old yeah you wanted a friend meet meet the person that you want to spend some time with and I. Think she had that fantasy too because she'd grown up watching these Cinderella type movies.

48:59 You know, she had that fantasy of having the perfect love story and romance and she didn't have that real life experience of, you know, maybe that's not the way things go for everybody. So she was very naive in approaching all of this. Absolutely. And the person she chose, or I guess he was kind of the first person who they she sort of started interacting with. He wasn't probably the right person to be. Even so, this Nick, Nick goaded on his ex-girlfriend actually reached out to Gypsy and said to her, he's really violent, like be careful.

49:36 And yeah, with her naivety, she was like, oh, that's no way. She just, she's just jealous and fobbed it off and didn't pay any attention to it. But I think there was some truth to that, unfortunately so. In 2013, he was actually caught at a McDonald's watching pornography on a laptop. Yeah, he claimed to have multiple personalities. He also had a diagnosis of autism. Yeah, he had some incredibly troubling behaviours. Yeah. He also had an IQ of about 85, which is not. It's. Lower not yeah, yeah, yeah.

50:14 He tried to hold down sort of jobs and that kind of thing, but I don't know that he was all that successful in those endeavours. Yeah. So Gypsy had confided eventually in her neighbour about, about this real secret relationship with Nicholas. And so the neighbour's name was Aaliyah Woodmansee. And he, she told her that they were planning a future together. They were having. They're engaging in sexual behaviours online, sexual exchanges online. He was into BDSM, which Gypsy didn't even know what that was, so I had to look into that.

50:55 But obviously then, but she would have thought. That was just very normal too, because that's she don't didn't know any different in her mind. That was like, well, kind of what what you do, yeah. Yeah, and they spoke of eloping. Yeah, he was also quite controlling with his behaviour. There was one particular quote where apparently at the end of every communication that they had together, she had to say to him this one particular sentence, which was I love and adore you, my Prince Charming. Goodnight.

51:22 Yeah. So that had to be repeated at the end of every one of their communications, which I find that's really odd an. Interesting person. Very interesting, yeah. But apparently the the two of them. So from what Gypsy's account of things, she sort of has spoken about how she spent a lot of time weighing out the pros and cons of what of the situation she was in, of how she was going to get to be with Nick. You know, whether or not that she could wait out for her mum to naturally pass away to be with Nick or whether or not she had to do something else to speed that up so that she could her and Nick could be together.

51:59 And they sort of mapped out sort of Plan A, Plan B, Plan C sort of situation. They didn't immediately jump to conclusions at first. But so Plan A was for she basically had this idea in her head, Gypsy, that if, if only my mum could meet him and then she'd know how lovely he was. And then we're meant to be together and then she'll allow it to happen. So they they decided to have this set up a meeting. It was just coincidence that they would bump into each other at this movie theatre. And the whole plan was that she would go, she would just start talking to hear this random person being Nick and that DD would also fall in love with him as being potentially her daughter's boyfriend.

52:36 And it would all be la, la, la rainbows. Yeah, rainbows and lollipops. But that's not how it went. They've got to the movie theatre. And they were. Going to see Cinderella. So I think that was an interesting choice for a, a single man. Single man to watch that, Well, you know, ostensibly on his own, yeah. I mean, and she'd go dressed up as like the character in the story and stuff, which, OK. I know, yeah. So yeah, so they rocked up to the movie theatre and, yeah, met Nick and Dee. Dee did not like him, right?

53:05 From the get go I thought he was weird which. I kind of go she's onto something. Absolutely. I don't think she was wrong. Yeah, and he, I mean, I've seen interviews with him prior and, and after, and it's an interesting character, to say the least. Oh, very much so. I don't think I'd be, you know, thrilled that my daughter had pinned this guy to be a boyfriend. So, yeah, that didn't go well. But their other plan then came, tried to sort of come into place. They did it. Sorry. Gypsy immediately realized this was not going how she wanted it to.

53:34 So Plan B was that if Gypsy fell pregnant, she would have to marry him and they'd have to be together and DD would just have to accept it then. So they decided to rendezvous in the bathroom of the movie theater and have sex. So this was the first time for her, but apparently he couldn't perform. But yeah, so they tried Plan B, but that didn't obviously work. And I dare say to be honest, even falling pregnant for her at this point with all the medications that she was on, I don't even think if that was successfully regularly doing having sex, whether or not she could fall pregnant to be really honest.

54:11 I mean, she was getting a period, but I wonder, like, what impact the medications would have on a potential fetus. Like she was still on like hundreds of medications a week. It was. It was ridiculous. Yeah. So yeah, you're absolutely right. But I doubt that would have ever, Yeah, come to a natural and nice no conclusion. So. Then it left them with Plan C, which it wasn't the greatest of plans, but no. So their plan C was to murder, murder Dee Dee because in Gypsy's words, it was sort of the only way out.

54:51 She couldn't see another way out. So Nicholas Go to John lived in Big Bend, WI, which was a few hours, I think, away from where Dee Dee and and Gypsy were living. So they concocted this plan that that Nicholas would come to the house, they would wait for DD to go to sleep and fall into a deep, deep sleep. Gypsy would then, you know, signal him to come into the house and that he was going to stab her to death. Yeah. And that is exactly what happened. Gypsy hid in the bathroom. Well, go to John stabbed Dee Dee to death, horrific scenes.

55:32 If you again, if you want to, you can have a look and see this the crime scene photos online. It's pretty horrible. But the thing that I find absolutely disgusting is that after that go to, John insisted. Or in Gypsy's words, it was a rape engaged in sexual activity in Gypsy's bedroom. Following. Yeah. So I have a different view on that a little bit Go. So I've listened to the police recordings of the interview of the two of them. Yeah, after the fact. Yeah. There's actually a really good podcast where they really deep dive into it called Monsters Who Murder.

56:15 So they pick it apart a fair bit. And look, I have to write like the guy who does the interview of Gypsy is terrible. He's an absolutely awful. What a hack. Hack. I know a hack is a good way to put it. Yeah, he just was terrible, whereas the female was not. Even trained and I'd be like Oh my God. Terrible at interviewing her and he really in some ways he went jumped from both sides of the fence to be honest. He really, like, I went down a really bad path with her of like, you know, it's there's a whole back story to her why this has occurred, had no understanding of that whatsoever, but also then fed her to be able to manipulate a little bit, which is what she's been trained to do from the youngest of ages.

56:54 So he's really either fallen for her trap in terms of her ability to manipulate or he's just handed to her on a silver platter how she can downplay what's going on from her perspective and really put this all on Nick. So the two in the interview process, she claims yet that Nick raped her. He she actually says that because she wouldn't allow Nick to rape her mum, he had she had to let him rape her. But Nick's story of that, who has a very lovely woman who's interviewing him. And so there's really no reason for him to have lied about this in the process of the interview.

57:34 The way it came out was very it seemed very natural him with this telling the story was that when he came to the door of the bathroom after stabbing Dee Dee, Gypsy didn't come out straight away because she was shaving her legs and her vagina preparing for then having consensual sex. It really, it's interesting listening to it and being broken down as to yeah, who, which story there is true so. I I've, I've watched both of those interviews and I fully agree with what you're saying. Yeah. Gypsy's most recent recount of that, which is in in that documentary that's just come out, the Prison Confessions of Gypsy Rose.

58:15 She says there that she felt she had to have sex with him because he'd done her a favor. Yes, I know. And I do I've I completely see that and I think that that again, it is it's who this is where it's overlaying piece of this whole issue is how she's been raised. So she has no understanding of really what probably what rape is or what you know, what having sex is and consensual sex at that. BDSM being put into it as what into the mix. Her understanding of life and normals in that sense is so warped.

58:49 So warped that I don't think she wasn't. She's to me she wasn't a 24 year old woman consenting to sex. No, she was still in the mindset of potentially a 15 to 16 year old girl not knowing what on earth's going on. So she shouldn't give consent. She shouldn't be able to give consent legally anyway. So I put it in a category of rape in that sense. Agreed, but. But then Nicholas, Nicholas having his limited capacity in terms of understanding the situation as well, you know. Just a whole big cauldron of mess.

59:24 And I, that's where I kind of go, oh, I don't know if I can put on him that he, that he necessarily raped her in that situation, because I don't think either of them have the intellectual ability of the situation. Yeah, to label any of it. I think you're right. I absolutely think you're right, but I also think it's absolutely revolting that they've just stabbed a person to death and then they're having sex and shagging in the bathroom regardless of what. Regardless, that just seems so. But none of this, yeah, none of it is coming from two people who have a sense of normal agree, and of any of anything of life.

1:00:00 It's so beyond, yeah. So DD was murdered on the 9th of June. Gypsy and Nick have gone back to Big Bend. Which is where? They have to spend a few few nights in a hotel first where they they mailed the knife back to Big Bend. So it wasn't travelling with them at the time as well. So there's a lot of like pre planning and things of what was going on. So there what there is certainly an understanding of what they've done is wrong and everything, Nick. Lives with his mum and stepdad in Big Bend. They rock up there on the door and they're sort of staying there well.

1:00:37 He told them that Gypsy had been kicked out by her mum. And so they were and, and the mother and stepfather were really lovely in that. And they were like, well, yeah, of course she can come stay here and we can work this out. You know, like if she's being kicked out, they were, they were just taking in a poor girl who'd been kicked out of her house. Like that's from their perspective, not knowing any of any of these other stuff, so. Gypsies walked away from the house. Yes, she's left her, left her wheelchair and everything else behind.

1:01:02 Yeah, but it's not like five days after the murder, nothing's come out about it. And so Gypsy, in her retelling of this, she she was, she wanted her mum to be found. She didn't want her to be lying there rotting. I mean, I can't imagine how horrific that body would be after five days. But anyway, on the 14th of June, so five days after the murder, Gypsy decides to post. So Dee Dee and Gypsy had a shared Facebook account and she decides to post on that account and she just wrote that bitch is dead.

1:01:34 She's. An interesting thing to right? Well, she, I guess she, she sees it from the fact that she wants people to think that somebody has come in and murdered Dee Dee. Yeah. Kidnapped Gypsy, Yeah. OK, so. It's the the kidnapper. The murderer has written the post. Yeah. Neighbours and friends see the post and become quite concerned. Yeah, you can. Actually see the thread on the post, the Facebook post, like people kind of commenting going, I think you've been hacked. Like that was first it was fairly innocent, like, oh, there's something going on.

1:02:01 And then people going, ah, this is interesting. No one's answering seen her. We're neighbours. We've knocked on the door and haven't seen her. We can't. Can't get anything. Yeah. Should someone call the police? Yes. And they do. They call the police and the police actually get a a warrant in order to be able to enter their home. Yeah. And, well, even. Before that, a neighbour climbs through a window because the cops can't enter, obviously, without a warrant. So in the in the middle of waiting for the warrant, they said the cops kind of go, yeah, yeah.

1:02:24 Well, you can climb through the window. I'll. Turn the line down. We're not. Here which I I'll go go for it. Yeah, I'd have someone do that to me if they want to. So the neighbors climbed to the window and so they don't want to go traipsing through the house like. But he could see that they were calling out, no ones answering, but they could see that her wheelchair was there, that gypsies wheelchair was there. And so they got even more concerned because they're like, Oh, my goodness, she doesn't have her medications or a wheelchair or so the kidnappers taken her.

1:02:51 And she might be really ill and unable to move to get herself away from these people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then once the police are able to gain entry into the house, they obviously discover Daddy's body. She's lying face down in the bed, stabbed, stabbed in her back 17. Stab wounds in the back, yeah. So pretty frenzied attack. Yeah, she's clearly deceased and has been for a while. The next post that Gypsy makes from the Facebook account to sort of further her story or further cement her story that she's been kidnapped.

1:03:29 The direct quote that she's written is I fucking slashed that fat pig and raped her sweet innocent daughter. Her scream was so fucking loud lol God. Yep. So Gypsy's written that now when the police had sort of they've discovered D DS body, they're like, what the Hell's going on here? They start interviewing the people milling around the house. And one of those neighbors is the the girl who was quite friendly with Gypsy. And she actually tells the police, oh, look, she's been in this relationship with this man.

1:04:02 This is his name. I'm pretty sure this is where he lives. Yeah. And they were actually able to trace the IP address of that, those Facebook posts to Big Bend and the exact address at which Nicholas was living. Yeah. And obviously Gypsy was there as well. They've knocked on the door and arrested them. Yeah, it. Was fairly quickly and easily I think it was. Within it was within hours. Yeah, yeah. They were charged with murder and felony armed criminal action and remained. They were remanded in custody, Yeah, pending their hearings.

1:04:35 So Gypsy went to court on the 5th of July in 2016. So the murder happened 2015. About a year later, she's she's going to trial. She pleads guilty to 2nd degree murder and receives a sentence of 10 years. There's a lot of controversy around like there's, there's people who believe all different things. Some people believe she she should never have been convicted, never been charged. This is not her fault. She's a victim of of a crime herself, blah blah blah blah blah. Go to John's trial didn't happen until November 2018, by which stage Gypsy was well and truly into serving her sentence and she testified at his trial.

1:05:22 And again, you can go and look at the video, the videos from that court hearing or from the court case. It's really fascinating, the things that she says, you know? She basically, you know, does say it was her idea and that, you know, Nick was following her instructions. Yeah, Yeah. Which I mean, because she's afraid to do it. She's been convicted. She's got her sentence. She's not going to get more for saying, Yep, the truth. So she sat there and gave a pretty full. Accurate account of what happened?

1:05:48 Yep. But yeah, his attorneys were, they were arguing that Nick wasn't necessarily innocent. They were just arguing that he should have had a lesser sentence in terms of the second degree murder rather than a first degree murder. So that's where they were hoping that we'd get it downgraded to a second degree murder. Yeah, which they didn't. That wasn't successful. He was. He was found guilty of first degree murder and criminal armed action, and he was sentenced to life in prison plus 20. Five years for the.

1:06:17 He's criminal. Yeah. Yeah. Which I mean, they seem sort of fairly opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of sentencings. So I know lots of people have fairly strong opinions on both ways. There's people who think that Gypsy should rot in jail for the rest of her life. There's people that, you know, think that Nick got the right sentence. But there's also people who think that Gypsies should be let out. Yeah. Or that even that there's people today saying, you know, there's hashtag free Nick Gordon, that he's done enough time because you know, he was, he won't, he's not.

1:06:49 Well, I guess they're sort of inferring that he's not gonna kill anybody else. He was just on the under the instructions of Gypsy, which I don't know if I agree with that. I mean, if he was. Able to be influenced by one person who wants to say he's not being. He wouldn't be able to be influenced by somebody else, absolutely. But look, that that's the way it's sort of all panned out. Yeah, yeah. There's not a lot about him really. No sort of recent update Gypsy and him broke. Up about 12 months into them after them being arrested.

1:07:17 I don't know how they communicate through jail with that sort of stuff, but they they were still apparently still together for some time afterwards. But yeah, that ended and fizzled out. And but now even Gypsy, now that she is out of jail, we can say that she served eight years of her 10 year sentence and was released on parole in December 2023. But yeah, so but she's now got a part of her parole is that she is to have no contact with Nick whatsoever. So she can't, you know, be writing letters to him or contacting him now anyway.

1:07:47 But she has, she has openly said that she feels bad for Nick and his sentence, but that all she think also she feels he could have said no to her. Yeah, and not have followed through. So yeah. And I to agree with that. Agreed. I I feel the same. I think I mean, he's stabbed a woman 17 times. Like, you know, regardless of what had happened to Gypsy, you know, murder is never the answer. No, although so Gypsy has said, you know, she feels guilty about what happened to her mother. She wishes it didn't happen.

1:08:20 She wishes she had been able to either go to the police or go to a family member reported earlier. Yeah, but that's just not the way it was. And that's not the way she was able to act at the time. So. It's and it's part of that abuse that she suffered, that emotional side of it, the emotional and mental abuse that she endured. Yeah, meant that she didn't understand what would be available to her. And you know that her she didn't have a sense that her dad would support bought her because of the stuff that her mom had fed her about her dad's belief of her.

1:08:49 Turns out dad is the best person ever that would have absolutely been there for her and is so there for her now. And her step and her stepmom, they are both incredible people. They've really rallied around her from the get go of like from when this occurred from like, I mean, he's always been part of her life and stayed around. He's certainly kept his face in there, but now with DD dead, he's able to come in with the truth from his perspective and be able to support her through all of her trial.

1:09:16 And now beyond in terms of her re entry into civilization. You know, and I think that look, because of the what happened to Gypsy in her, well, as she calls it, it was a prison already that she was living in under DD. Going to prison was probably not a bad thing for her for eight years because she couldn't have even just flipped a switch and turned off all of that stuff that was there. She. Said that doesn't, yeah. That she's had to learn how to well, literally yeah, hygiene, you know everything but interact with people who are in age.

1:09:50 I think that prisons almost like already been like a bit of a interim transition anyway, because it in prison she could learn in a very, you know, well the. Other different environment gained her education yeah so she did have a timeline she also she said she when she got to prison she'd never felt that free in her life yes so it was a stepping stone yeah. What freedom is actually like out in the real world because. I mean, if she'd just been let freedom out into the real world straight from what she was experiencing, I think that's the thing.

1:10:21 It was she was finding little freedoms in terms of the evenings when DJ was asleep, and that was leading to her finding people like Nick. Yeah. Whereas going to prison, yeah, UK, your meeting is probably pretty interesting people, but it's, you know, contained. And she received some the help that she needed in there. She received psychological support, but. Only a little bit. So Kim Kardashian, sorry if you chat with her well. Isn't that? Isn't that just quite the delight? Oh gosh. So the two of them are apparently going to start working together about some prison reforms.

1:10:48 Yeah. Things I'd love to see what that work entails and where that leads to. I agree with Kim Kardashian that this is that that Gypsy could be a great. Of course I do. That Gypsy could be a great advocate for the young people in situations like this. Absolutely. That she could literally have some great impact on Prison Reform, having lived the experience of that, because she what she was saying was that she was not eligible for psychological help. Well, I. Think she only received there was only a limited amount which I mean obviously she absolutely needed it.

1:11:19 I can't believe that she wouldn't qualify. Not for yet for ongoing, yeah. But the way she talks in her interviews, especially in that prison confessions of Gypsy Rd. you can tell she's had psychological support. Definitely. Just the language she uses, the way that she can sort of say things from a different perspective, you can tell she's had some psychological interventions, yes, But clearly, well, according to her and according to everybody, not by any stretch of the imagination as much as she needs because.

1:11:52 I I think a lot of though her psychological intervention has been from peers in in prison, like learning from others in there. I mean, and I'm the first one to advocate. Friends are your first and best psychologists. And they're, you know, usually free. Yeah. Usually usually might cost you a coffee, wine. Yeah. So I mean, I think that friends that. And obviously she's made some, you know, great people in, I think in prison have embraced her and have helped her. And it's been a that's been a great process for her.

1:12:18 Yeah. And it's worked for her in her term of terms of psychological help. But professional psychological help she definitely needs as well. Yeah. I think she's received. I hope she has to now. Yeah. So. While she was in prison, she became engaged to a pen pal of hers named. All we knew at the time was his name was Ken, sort of. She didn't put much out there about the relationship. In August 2019, they'd split. They were sort of on and off, you know, a bit on and off during that time. In June 2022, she announced that she had married a man named Ryan Scott Anderson.

1:12:51 So not the bloke who she'd originally had been engaged to, been engaged to. She's released from prison in December of 2023, still married to Ryan Scott Anderson. And then all of a sudden, well, it's really quick. It's like. In in a nanosecond she's bloody now pregnant with Ken Irker's baby so. Yeah, in on March 28th, she announced publicly that the she was divorcing Ryan. Yeah, on April 30th she announced that she had rekindled her romance and was back on with Ken. Yeah. And then in the July, I believe it was, she announced that she was pregnant with her first baby with Ken.

1:13:28 So have you got into any conspiracies online about all this? Oh, no. Oh, my God. So last night I was just, you know, I don't know if you'll like this, but right before we do a recording like the night before, I'm always like, oh, my God. I'm grossly unprepared. I have no idea what I'm talking about. Once we get going, it's all fine. It's all in there somewhere. But last night I was like, oh, my God. I I don't know much about this part of her life. Yeah. So somehow actually, I do know how it's through Reddit, What I found this like this thread that was basically this, a lot of people picking apart her pregnancy stories and being like, how did she go from being 11 weeks pregnant in July, you know, the 1st of July 2024 to being 15 weeks pregnant on the 15th of July 2024?

1:14:18 Oh my God, she's fabricating dates and blah, blah, blah, blah. But no, when I went and had a look into it, her dates do all marry the baby wasn't planned. And I just wonder, like, psychologically, being that she's only been out of prison for what, now eight months or something, is she ready to be bringing a baby into this world with a guy who she's been on and off with but hasn't really been with because she's been in prison? She's also had a marriage in there that's then broken down. Her upbringing was clearly incredibly problematic.

1:14:54 Like, yeah. I. Can't imagine. I think she's going to need a lot of support. Absolutely the one. Thing that I I think. She gets she has it though a little too. I think the. One thing that really, like, you know, settled, settled my worry about this is the fact that her dad and stepmom is so, so, so involved. Yeah. And her stepmom is her number one advocate. Yeah. Her stepmom's there with her all the way. She's so I, I think for the fact that she's got that really tight knit family support behind her, Hopefully everything will work out well.

1:15:23 Yeah. And obviously she's got the lived experience that she doesn't then want to transfer on to her own child. I think honestly that her stepmom is the reason that Gypsy will be OK. Yeah, honest to God, she has. The way she speaks about her is like so beautiful. But she sees her for who she is and the past that she's had. And she talks very honestly around Gypsy's lies and that that that is part of who Gypsy was. And that lying was part of her life and and misleading people and manipulating people.

1:15:56 And she talks about how she they have worked with her to break her of that and to learn how to not do that. Because I think, you know, it's really easy to just think that she's doing that on purpose and that she's, you know, that she's thinking I will lie about this when I think she's been raised to just think like that. Yeah. And therefore not do it naturally. She's not doing it. It's a very natural thing for her to do to kind of go, oh, you want me to say it that like that way. OK, I'll do that.

1:16:21 And so it, I think she's really worked hard with her to like, go, no, no, no, love, you don't need to lie. You tell the truth. And she's like, oh God, that must be really hard to then go switch. How do I turn my brain to do that? Yeah, but Gypsy's done really well. The interviews that I've seen with her now compared to, you know, when she was with DD and you know, those sets and, and even even at the beginning of that, like when she went to prison and that's think from there to now, she's a an amazingly well adjusted woman, really impressive.

1:16:51 And I think she'll be fine. But I do worry about the baby in terms of, and I guess it's putting it in that way of like what if the baby does have a medical issue? And I'm not saying that, you know, like there's, I don't know what it would be, but like, and it can be quite minor. How is she going to be perceived by people? Like, even if it's real, because people won't believe her because they think that she'll just do the same as what her mom did. And I really, I wonder if that's playing on her mind at all of like, how do I approach those things?

1:17:22 You would hope that she'll be able to find medical professionals who are sympathetic to her situation. Yeah. And we'll look at things objectively. I. Mean, I know as a as a teacher that you I kind of do the whole like don't put my blinders on like you think my kids perfect, but also don't be that that parent who looks too much for things because I know what I know around child development and what could possibly be going on. So I can understand her a bit in the terms of like going like, you know, I don't want to think too narrowly, but I don't want to not say things either.

1:17:50 Yeah. Oh, that must. Be I think she's got quite the path to navigate and look, I mean, as we said, with the support of her, her dad and stepmom, hopefully that cycle can be broken because we can see that, you know, Dee Dee obviously suffered some of that as a child. We don't know what her mum had endured. We don't know that sort of story. Yeah. But obviously this is, you know, a cycle that has sort of been in this family for a couple of generations. So let's hope that with them out of the picture, this will be.

1:18:19 The end of that this will be the. End of it and she'll go on to have a a, you know, a very healthy and. Happy child. One thing I do want to question, I do question a little bit, and I'm intrigued to hear your thoughts on this. So she's come out of prison and she said she's only been out of prison for eight months. And in that time, like, she's. Yeah, divorced a guy, got back with another guy and fallen pregnant. She's also had a a nose job. And her teeth done. Yeah, I. Can get the teeth done, I I really can because apparently that was really horrific for her, the way she, and it's impacted her enormously medically anything.

1:18:53 Like her speech, her yeah, even just like, physically like her, Her, yes. Like the formation of her mouth was all yeah, wrong. I can understand that a little bit more. The the nose is just is cosmetic. I feel like what do you really want to have more surgeries like and and she's chosen to have that. Yeah, I can understand. Having that like, you know, there's, there's probably a certain vanity to it because she was made to look a certain way for such a long time. And she says now in interviews that she's she's actually finally happy with the way she looks.

1:19:27 So maybe she needed that for a personal sense of, I don't know if just looking different, but the thing that I actually saw her and Deedee had the same nose. They looked their profiles were exactly the same. So maybe she wanted to take take that away, step away from that too. I. Think it's a little bit too that, I mean, she's someone now who's, you know, she's not necessarily wanted to be in their public eye, but she's in the public eye. I think she likes being in the public. Life, I think she likes it.

1:19:55 Absolutely. We don't think it's maybe like the IT was necessarily from the get go where she was aiming for herself. But it's clearly that's where she's going to go and she'll keep going with that. And I guess as you and I both know, now that, you know, you're putting a camera in front of yourself more than ever, I guess there is that vanity point of like, you know, well, if I'm going to have to be on screen, I'm going to put my face out there. I won't be happy with it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, look, I can understand that.

1:20:19 And obviously, yeah, she was clearly OK with it. I mean, she's gone ahead and had it done. No one forced it. This was probably no. No, I guess it was a choice. Full control over. Yeah, true, Yeah. Who knows? Yeah. Anyway, do you have anything else to add to the Gypsy Rd. Blanchard story? I just good. Luck to her. I hope that her life is. I hope she gets to have the life she really wanted. And she's admitted she really does understand that Disney love stories don't actually happen. So I hope that she's on a path now.

1:20:48 And yeah. Her baby's due in January of 2025, so I guess watch this space around that too. I hope she just does. Like positive things with what where she's at now. And like, I hope she does move forward with them. If she's going to be public eye, I hope she takes the route of speaking up for people who are vulnerable and making positive changes by. All accounts I think she has. I think the fact that she released the the docu series I wanted. That in Australia, How come? Where can I view that I? Don't know.

1:21:18 I found my ways. We'll discuss it later. I don't need. But. But the fact that she was willing to put herself out there in that respect as well to to teach people about her experience, I think that goes a long way. Yeah. And I mean, you know, if you had the opportunity to work with Kim Kardashian on Prison Reform. I was gonna say if she's gonna work with Kim Kardashian. Kim Kardashian. She'll be fine. How? Do the Kardashians make it into nearly every episode? I think this is the. 3rd like it's bad.

1:21:42 Well, they are everywhere, let's be honest. Yeah, true. True, true. All right, well, I think that we'll leave it here for this week, but thank you to everybody for listening. If you've got any comments or questions or anything that you want to say about the episode, leave it in the comments because we love seeing what people have to say. We love it when conversations are sparked by something people, yes, a comment people will make. Our next episode is on the Easy Street Murders and the two Sousas.

1:22:09 I find this, this case really intriguing, intriguing. It happened in in Melbourne in Australia and it's a it's a really fascinating case, really tragic story as well. So stay tuned for that next week. Fantastic. Can't wait. Very excited all. Right. Stay curious, crime besties. See. Ya.