Episode 14 - Martin Bryant & The Port Arthur Massacre

0:15 Welcome back everybody to Two Crime Besties for another week. Thank you so much for joining us again. We're very excited to bring another episode. Yes, we are. We are here, ready and raring to go. Yeah, as nervous as we might feel when we first get started. I know I feel like at the start when we first started the podcast, because we didn't know who'd be listening or how many people would be listening out, I just sort of didn't think about it. But we've had such a great response and so many people listening and coming up to us, I'm like, oh God, it's just a bit nerve wracking now.

0:42 It really is. I see the the analytics sometimes and that you sort of just see them as numbers and then as soon as it hits me like that, that's real people that are really listening that I have no idea who they are. I don't know anything about them, but they're listening to us. I just kind of go, oh shit, it's. More when people come up to you and they're like, oh, I've been listening to your podcast. One of one of the mums from school, one of Ollie's friend's mums, she mentioned the podcast when I bumped into her during the week this week.

1:08 And she goes, oh, I know it kind of embarrasses you so I won't say much more, but I'm loving it. Thank you. Yeah. So thanks. Claire, thank you listening. Yeah, I had a little gather at my office the other door the other day, you know, with all a bunch of my work colleagues or like talking about saying I'm going to listen to the X fun in the car ride home or, you know, and all this sort of stuff. And it's like, it's so lovely, but like so embarrassing at the same time. I know, I know. It's kind of really putting yourself out there.

1:31 Yeah, But how's your week been? What's been happening? Yeah, no, it's been a pretty good week. Yeah. Pretty stock standard as we just sort of like, you know, got to shoot through the calendar in my brain of like what has happened because I feel like every day just like, you know, like, where have I been? Who am I? Like, I just don't know where I am every day. But we're just saying we've got it's like the Father's Day store this week for the kids at school, which is always, always fun and finding out the the things that they buy at those things.

1:55 I absolutely love that for Mother's Day. It was the best. Oh my God. Yeah. I mean, you remember my bell that I got for Mother's Day last, which was just amazing. I get this little ring bell that I get to tap on my bench for a drink that my boy has bought me. How? Successful has it been? It's. Been moved upstairs so the boys can do it use it between their bedrooms. So say no more. Yeah, Yeah. A true Mother's Day gift. Yeah, but there's like, no in my family, like there is no getting rid of one of those gifts at all that you can't like it does not leave the house because my eldest remembers every gift he gives.

2:29 Yes. And if I happen to not, not there was even this morning was giving a bag to him to take for the Father's Day stall. And it was one of those, you know, those bags that fit inside itself to make a little pocket. Oh yeah, that fit inside your bag handy. So I gave that to him. I said, you know how to use that, don't you? Because Mum, of course I do. I gave you one for Mother's Day. Oh, God, did I roll? I'm like, oh, did you? That must have been this one. You know that I'm handing him and he's like, mum, it's the pink one.

2:53 And I had to do the whole like do I have, do I have the pink one? This is. The pink one, He's gonna ask me for the pink. One, I actually do the whole like, Oh yeah, that's the one I carry in my handbag all the time that I use all the time. I'm like, I better find that freaking thing and put it in my handbag. We were just lamenting the fact though, before we started recording that for the Father's Day and the Mother's Day stalls, we have to have cash to give to the kids, which I don't know about you.

3:16 In fact, I do know about you. You never have cash. I never have cash. It is such a pain in the bum. Last week I had to pick up some groceries for mum and dad and I was giving it to them and my dad's like, oh, and my, my mum and dad, old school love, love a bit of cash in fact. And my dad always has cash. He's he's in the in the industry for cash. But I'm like, I hate it when people give me cash. Like we went out for dinner recently and a friend of ours gave us gave me cash and I'm like, what the hell am I gonna do with this?

3:44 Like I never. Well, no, because she didn't give me in the right denomination, yes. But when dad, when I was giving the groceries, Dad's like, oh, here, I'll pay you for it. And I'm like, no, no, no, don't worry about it. Like it was, you know, it wasn't that much. And and then he goes, oh, no, come on here. I've got cash. I'm like, well actually if you've got $210.00 notes, I'll definitely take that because that's, you know, save me from having to bloody go and get cash. And to get small notes out you have to go into like a supermarket or something.

4:08 Well, even then I did that thinking, you know, I'll go get cash out and because I needed it and so I went and bought something at the grocery store and went to the register and went I'll get cash out while I'm here for the Father's Day store. It would only let me get A50 or A20 so even. Then I'd actually go to a person. Yeah. And so then I was there's. No people at the supermarket. No, there's no one there because I even turned around to the one person that was there and I said, can I exchange that for some other notes?

4:32 And he went, no, we don't do that. I was like, what? That's not fair to help. So I walked out kind of going, I'll have to break that at some point and totally forgot to. So then yeah, last night I said to my eldest, I was like, do you happen to have some money in your in your jar? And he goes, Oh yeah, yeah, I've got some $10 notes in there. I'm like, wait, can you grab one of those? And when I break this fifty, you can then I'll give you the 10 bucks back, which thank God. So that I actually happened to find stash in my wallet somewhere.

4:58 I did have a $10 note for the other one, but yeah, I don't know how long that's been there for. That's that was free money because I really. Don't know how totally. I love that, love that. I'm very excited to see what the kids come home with. Love it. Love it. Like I don't know where the people who source that stuff get it from. I know. For sure, it's Timo 100% because yeah, I all of my gifts that I got from my boys from the Mother's Day stall, I'm like, oh, I've seen that on Timo. Another team repurchase, but I mean, it's a fundraiser for the school.

5:29 Isn't absolutely. Totally understand. But I love that way that the kids will like think about it too, like I love. It it's beautiful. Yeah, they know I drink. Yeah. Coffee. Totally. It's not. We've had coffee this morning. It's not quite after midday. So we haven't had taken in any other yet. Yeah. So the case we're talking about today, Meg. Yes. Martin Bryant and the Port Arthur massacre. Yeah. I think we need to pre warn people of this episode. It's where I mean even researching this one. It's a full on story if you are unaware of it.

6:04 I don't know if anyone is unaware of it these days. It's. Maybe some of our international listeners might not be fully aware of it. Yeah, I mean, it certainly was big news when it occurred, but it there's it's it's full on. I mean, in the name being a massacre. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not great. So yeah, we'll be talking about some Philly. Heavy stuff, I know. In researching this for myself, I actually found it really tough this week. There's a there's a particular moments in it that are really hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

6:31 We'll get to all of that though, so as Meg said, just take this as a warning if this isn't something that you feel that you can listen to this week. So Martin Bryant was born on the 7th of May 1967 to parents Colleen and Maurice. So he was the eldest of their kids. They then I think about four years later, had his sister and her name was Lindy. I don't know a lot about her. There's not a lot about her and I can understand that. She absolutely. I mean, I can't even imagine how she must. I believe she's changed her name.

7:02 She's, yeah, gone into the background very much so. Which, yeah. Like, I couldn't even find where she's living now or anything like that. So in, you know, out of respect to her, I don't think there's any need to bring her up anymore or, you know, for anybody to necessarily need to know anything further about her. No, the incident at Port Arthur or the massacre at Port Arthur took place on the 28th of April on in 1996. So contextually around that time, I mean, where, where were we as a, as a nation?

7:31 You know, if things were, I mean, they're very different to the way they are today. I know looking at old footage, seeing all the like, to me in my mind, 1996 doesn't seem like that long ago. But then you look at the footage and you think, Oh my God, TV used to look like that, or cars used to look like that. Yeah, you know the. Police cars were those old, like, hold on the doors? Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was sort of a real trip back in time, but I really don't feel like it was that. Long ago? Well, because how old would you have been in 96 year?

7:57 11. Yeah, so I was like 15. I was in year 10. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's, it's really forefront of my mind. I remember this very clearly, this occurring and the day of and the following aftermath. Yeah, of it all. Yeah, very clearly. I think it was also because I think I was year ten, it was discussed. If so, like literally, I think that Monday when we came to school, I remember just walking into our first class happened to be I think it was English or something like that. And we just didn't do any of our core work that day.

8:24 We literally sat around with newspapers and stuff and like picked apart a little bit as AI guess. I guess my English teacher probably did the right thing in terms of just went with it. Use that as a way of, you know, reading newspapers and being critical thinkers. But at the same time, like, yeah, looking at what happened and discussing it and talking about it as a as a whole class as to what this was and what, how we all, you know, felt about it, which was really. Full. I mean, I think it took, you know, weeks for the full story to even be able to be put together by the police once they got all of the witness accounts and and the lead up to and all of that.

8:59 But so this did happen on a Sunday. So the fact that, I mean, obviously it was prime news that evening and then in all of the newspapers and Morning News shows and everything the following morning. And it hadn't really. Probably when those newspapers went to print, it wouldn't have even been finished. Yet, no, potentially it was still a a siege. And at that point in time, I think actually I think I remember vaguely a that being like the the headline. Yeah. Egypt, Port Arthur or like, you know, in Tasmania.

9:28 It wasn't so much the massacre. Well, I mean the massacre was part of it, but it was that's where it was at. Was still. It was. Still ongoing was ongoing. I think it finished on that Monday morning at around 7:30 in the morning. So I mean, what an what a horror of almost 24 hours for Port Arthur and the people of Tasmania. And so much so that even I mean, there were police officers from and special operations officers from Victoria who flew down. So it impacted, I mean it impacted us as a nation and and we will definitely get into this because it informed a lot of policy change for us in Australia and something.

10:05 Yeah, a long, you know, and that legacy continues to this day. The massacre was the deadliest massacre by a single gunman in Australian history. 35 people were killed and 23 people were wounded. There were children killed. Ranged age from yeah. Three and three, yeah, 3 and up. I guess in looking at it, you know, I guess it's probably a good idea to start and talk about Martin Bryant and, and still leading that way. Yeah, I think so. I think we're just being really conscious that there's lots of podcasts out there on this topic, like short form podcast.

10:43 There's lots of news stories, lots of ways you can get access information about it. One particular website, Wikipedia, has a really solid rundown of the the events of the day, and you can listen to podcasts that read that out to you or read it yourself. And it's very detailed. But I think we're just really conscious that we want to tell the story a little bit differently and give you maybe a little bit broader information than just what's already there for people to find. So yeah, I think, yeah, starting with who Martin Bryant was is a really good place to start because ultimately this is it's a horrific and tragic story of a human.

11:18 Yeah, Yeah. From the get go, I think absolutely. Yeah. Have you watched? In researching this, did you watch the interviews with his mum? Yes, I did, yeah. What was your take on her? So this is Colleen. Yeah, Maurice died in sort of in the after, sorry, before Port Arthur, but yeah, sort of not that long actually before Port Arthur. So we obviously haven't heard from him. So that's Martins. Well, as Carlene put it, she said it probably would have happened if he was still around. Unfortunately so.

11:50 So Maurice, yeah. So all of the interviews that I've seen obviously are just with Colleen on her own. Yeah. And I have a. Lot of empathy for her. She definitely she has chopped and changed a bit right around whether she has an opinion of he was it was him that did this or whether it wasn't him that did this. And I can fully grasp that as a mother, you don't want to think that this is what your child could do. And obviously, unfortunately, there was conspiracy theorists involved, you know, around this and who've planted seeds with her that it, you know, you would grasp at anything to go.

12:25 My kid didn't do this. So I can fully empathise with that. But I know to this day she has changed that opinion and does believe that he did do it. But yeah, yeah, it breaks my heart that she's, I mean, she's raised a child and in the best way she could, and that this is what he's done. To be linked to that is really hard. It would be horrendous. I can't imagine. I mean, you have no control over what your adult child does. We know there are psychopaths in the world who've been brought up by very loving families who, you know, have no inkling or, you know, any idea that this was going to happen.

13:07 But I what I found interesting was that Colleen said that right from a really young age, Martin was troubled and there was something different about him. She said he when he was around two years of age. So first of all, he was really late to start talking. He was very delayed in hitting those those early milestones. Yeah. And yeah, she so, yeah, very slow to develop language. And he also had difficulties forming relationships with people. She said that she noted that there was a time where and he, I think this was around two years of age where he just stopped wanting any physical affection from her or from Maurice.

13:47 So there was there was that sort of like stopped at a really young age. Yeah. And he was very destructive from a young age as well. He was like, he'd destroy toys. He'd he'd just, he was destructive. He'd he'd go around wrecking stuff all the time. Yeah. And I look and now looking at it back from like the knowledge that we have now, yeah, the and obviously has been assessed later in life, but in the 90s it wasn't typical for kids to be assessed for various disabilities etcetera. So they didn't know that there was possibly a way of knowing what this is and working with those needs that he had.

14:27 So I think that's where this story gets really sad because this is a boy who's gone through life without intervention and acknowledgement of his difference, kind of which is not, you know, it's not a bad thing, but to go through life thinking that that's his, his brain was, you know, neurotypical and to and, and as a family, not knowing how to manage this difference, it's challenging. So. Yeah, it would have been so difficult for them to manage not having that context. Yeah, I mean that's the thing we talk about now like, you know, being able to know that there's ways that we can work with children with either neuro diverse, you know, and into adulthood and working with children with adults who are neuro diverse and how we can adapt things and accommodate different needs.

15:07 Now it's so important because then we grow better humans in general, rather than unfortunately for Martin, Martin not being diagnosed in any way or any intervention. He has grown up in a very isolated world in his own mind. Definitely. So. I mean, it's there was a quote here from it was actually the no, it wasn't in the I thought it was in the transcript of the court hearing, but it wasn't. It was actually a news article I read and that they were talking about that if we have a wider understanding of the kind of brain development and psychiatric issues that can lead to such catastrophic disasters, maybe we can avoid them.

15:47 Absolutely. And I strongly believe in this case that this could have been avoided had he received the appropriate supervision, intervention, medication and counselling. And I think what Kathleen says with Maurice passing away when he did, I definitely think that had an impact on this too because Maurice really kept Martin in check and was like, it must have been exhausting for him, but he was actively controlling him on a day-to-day basis to keep him in line and to keep him focused on something other than.

16:18 But the thing that I do find interesting is that Maurice introduced him to guns. Yeah, as a way of focusing his attention to something that he could be doing. But then Martin being who he was, he's taken that to the NTH degree. Yeah. So when Maurice gave him his first air rifle, he would lie down on a Creek trail and like, literally shoot at people going past. He'd shoot at birds, Yeah. And torture them if they didn't die immediately. There were a lot of behaviours there that were potentially. Red flags.

16:52 Absolutely. Could come if weren't if it wasn't, yeah, controlled in some way in like in which obviously his dad was able. To do, yeah. But with him not being around, and that wasn't, I think, the forethought in his mind, like, what if I'm not here one day? Yeah, exactly. You know, you don't want to live life thinking like that. But yeah, I think it was obviously a great outlet for him, but at the same time it it LED for to something greater. Than that, absolutely. Yeah. He became obsessed with guns.

17:15 Yeah. When he was a little kid, he was setting firecrackers alight, and he set himself on fire and he ended up in the hospital for a week or so. And the local TV news interviewed him And go onto YouTube and have a look at that video. Because it says so. Much it says, so much the late the interviewer. The journalist asks him. So now that you've done this to yourself, well, you never play with firecrackers again. And he's like, Oh no, I will. There was no. Question but haven't you learnt your lesson and.

17:45 He's like, no. You know, actually he goes, yes, I've learnt my lesson, but I'll do it again. And that's that intellectual disability there of like not connecting the two of like learning a lesson. You don't do it again because you get hurt. It's that I've learnt my lesson, it's great fun, I'll do it again. It was awesome. Yes, I got burnt, but like, it was great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and that was something else about him was that he was so typical in every other way. It was one of those he had his disabilities were not visible in that sense.

18:12 Yeah. People had expectations of him to meet the standard of what would you consider normal. And so but his his brain was not functioning at the same level as children his same age and into adulthood then not he was functioning at 28 at approximately about the age of 1111 year old. Yeah. So an 11 year old with a fair bit of money because of things that we can go into and also access to firearms. I mean, it's a recipe for disaster. Absolutely. He had no impulse control. He had, he just acted on every whim without sort of consequence.

18:44 And again, you know, this is skipping a little bit further ahead, but when you see him interviewed post the massacre, you can see that he has no concept of what he's just done or the ramifications of it. So he was suspended from school when he was in high school because of lots of different reasons, a lot of behavioural issues. The psych assessed him as having an IQ of 66, so it's a low IQ. That would qualify him for a special development school. Absolutely. At this point in time, like so, he. I believe it did back then.

19:18 Yeah, it did. But there was no access. And this was it. There was a special program at the high school, Yeah, which he did attend, and he was enrolled in that special program, but it wasn't like a special development school. The intervention that he could have, that's exactly right. And the part of part of that would be TASI is a state of Australia, but it's it wouldn't have had all of what would be available living on the mainland necessarily. In that sense, their education system is fabulous. But yeah, I dare say it wouldn't have been as as big and accessible in terms of that down in that.

19:49 Area the the population or the demographic necessarily there to sustain, you know, a model like that exactly when he was suspended from school, he was assessed by a psychologist and or a psychiatrist actually, and he was diagnosed with having schizophrenic tendencies. Yeah. Which I think is really interesting.

20:12 That was a single intervention at the time. It's not like he then went to see that psychologist ongoing at that point in his life. Yeah. And again, I think that's a missed opportunity. Yeah, I mean, later on, more diagnosis and more closer looking at him, they found that they weren't so here weren't schizophrenic. Yeah, tendencies, but they found there was multiple other things going on for him. But on the surface it could have looked schizophrenia. Yeah, but looking deeper, there was a lot more going on for him than just yet than that.

20:44 I shouldn't say just because that's something to, you know, for people. Many people live with schizophrenia but don't also commit massacres. So it doesn't necessarily, it sounds horrific having schizophrenia, but it's it's actually a manageable condition. It's diagnosed, etcetera. So yeah, that, that's really interesting. That's what they sort of focused on. Yeah. It's a bit of the sign of the time though as well. I think so, and I think these days we know so much more about it. It's so much more out in, you know, in society, like everybody, it's, it's a lot more talked about.

21:16 There's not the same stigma that there was back there. I'm sure there is absolutely still stigma for people for sure with these conditions, but it's not so much as back in the 90s, at least people are talking about it. We all know neurodivergent children and adults and we accept them as part of our community. And, you know, you just, I think you and I have discussed this before, kids at primary school these days are so accepting of the way people are. And I, I love that because when I was at school, it wasn't like that.

21:45 If you're a bit different, you were picked on and you were teased or there was something, you know, everyone would be like, what a weirdo. But I find especially with my oldest son, you know, he's 10 years old now. He, I love the way he just accepts people for who they are. It it really. It's so beautiful, yeah. It's lovely and I think. That's weirdness. It's great the world go around like, you know, we need more of it. And they're so accepting and realizing that they're the traits that actually get change in the world, you know?

22:13 Yeah. We need all types, yes. Yeah. So I guess when Martin was a teenager, his parents were having a lot of trouble controlling him. So he's going through all these hormonal changes with the brain of a much younger child. He became a bit of a nuisance around Port Arthur. Yeah, he was really known as just doing some fairly mischievous but nuisance type things. Yeah. Yeah. So he, he would, there was one, it turned out to be his lawyer in the end, which they, they worked out later on, But he would go to their house and try and see he was selling rabbits.

22:48 He'd go and shoot rabbits and then he'd start and try and sell them to the local people. But, and he'd got knock on people's doors and like, but he'd like peer inside and want to, you know, just that he didn't have boundaries. And so he would, like, make people feel quite uncomfortable with how he would interact because people had an expectation of, say, a 1011 year old child standing at their door, but behave more like a three or four year old, let's say, you know, of like, kind of like what's in your house, Like, don't wanna come in.

23:12 Yeah, yeah. And people found that very confronting and and a nuisance. So they really just veered away from him, which can, I mean, that's got to be, yeah, really impactful. Absolutely. He'd bang on people's doors, though, until they opened the door. Like for for minutes, he'd just be like bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang incessantly. Yeah, knowing they were home, they obviously didn't want to answer the door to him, but he wouldn't let up. No, because. Late and later on that grew into because he ended up with a lot of money he would travel a lot overseas because people on a plane sitting next to you can't walk away from you they can't exit the conversation they're stuck with you so and.

23:50 You kind of have to be a bit polite, don't you? Because if you're stuck sitting and he'd, he'd go. He'd go whole flight. Yeah. And some of the time he would actually fly to just then turn around and fly back home again. Yeah. And so it was. He must have been craving that company. And he couldn't. He literally. Had he couldn't get it, he had hostages there to listen to him and talk and listen to him talk. So, yeah, I mean, we'd all, you know, not wanna sit next. We wanna play necessarily. No way.

24:15 Thank you very much. Yeah, I'm. Yeah, I'm sure plenty of people did the whole like, oh, I'm gonna sleep now. Like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's. Yeah, he's definitely a very interesting person all around in that sense. A psychologist who assessed him at one point for a disability pension. So in Australia, if you're unable to work due to a disability, you can be assessed for a pension. So you get a A, it's quite a small amount of money each week, but it's enough to sort of sustain a very basic lifestyle.

24:43 Yeah. And he was assessed by a psychologist who who did say that he was, there was no way he would ever be able to hold down a job because because he rubs people up the wrong way. So even a basic entry level position that potentially he could have intellectually being able like was intellectually capable of socially he wouldn't have been able to. And so he was, he was given the pension. But to kind of bolster that a little bit, he decided to start his own lawn mowing business. Or anyway, so he'd go and incessantly, still incessantly knock on people's doors and say, you know, do you want me to mow?

25:20 I'll mow for you. Come on, I'll mow your lawn. And one day, just by pure chance, I guess, he knocked on the door woman by the name of Helen, now unbeknownst to him at the time. So Helen lived in a mansion, but it was incredibly dilapidated, overgrown. She had something like 40 cats and 12 dogs or something like that. So she was a bit of a bit eccentric, a bit of an eccentric woman herself. So Brian Martin was 19 at the time. I think she was like 54 when they first met. And she was like, Yep, you can mow my lawn.

25:53 That didn't quite work out the way it was supposed to because Martin couldn't quite figure out how to use the lawn mower or something happened to the lawn mower. And so she then decided that she'd allow him to help her look after the animals and sort of, you know, help clean up after them. But this developed actually into what I can only gather as a platonic friendship. From what I can see, there was no sexual element to it, although they did come across like that. They would go out into the community like they were boyfriend and girlfriend or mother and son.

26:29 Like it's, it's, it's a really, it's a relationship. An odd relationship, yeah, but there's no evidence of it being like a sexual relationship whatsoever. I mean, quite senior to him, but she didn't have any children. No, I think she just really felt for him and really talking. I wonder whether she saw something of herself in him, like she was quite a recluse. She lived in, as I said, lived in this mansion with her mother at the time. She was actually heir to a portion of the Tattersall's fortune.

26:58 So she was incredibly wealthy but had never worked real, I think. Actually, I think she did have a job at some point in her life, but for the for the majority of her adult life, she didn't work and she was supposed to be caring for her mother who was living in the house at one point. Somebody, I think suggestions have been made that it was Maurice who might have reported them to the health authorities, but they reported this dilapidated house to the health authorities. They turned up and they've basically declared that the house was just complete, a complete biological hazard because apparently it was just so disgusting.

27:34 There was like animal excrement everywhere and they took both Helen and her mother who I think her mother's name was like Hilda or something, I can't remember. But they took her, took them to the hospital and they X-rayed the mum and she'd actually had a broken hip and it hadn't been treated. So all that Helen had done was moved her from the bedroom upstairs where she had a bed. Yeah, into the kitchen because she could no longer get up and down the stairs. And she was sitting upright in a kitchen, sleeping.

28:03 Sorry, upright in a kitchen chair. I. Did not know if any of this. For what was potentially up to two years, they don't know for sure the timing of it. Once they got her into a nurse, once they sorry, so she'd been in hospital, they got her all better. They sent her off to a nursing home and she died not that long after. Well, that's interesting. I sort of thought you were actually gonna say like, oh, she she came, you know, like did her she was 38180 and she. Was in her 90s at the time. Yeah, wow.

28:32 But very malnourished. And yeah, it was, it was not a good living situation. Wow, Yeah, that's. Great. So that kind of gives you a bit of an idea as to how Helen was living with all this. So actually at that time, Maurice took some long service leave and helped Helen and Martin clean up the house and then moved into the house shortly thereafter. Yeah, with, with Helen. What did they do? They. My God, what a what a time they had after this. So they went on spending sprees. They would buy clothes and shoes.

29:07 In the space of three, two years, sorry, they bought 30 brand new cars. I can't find. Yep, I can't find what they did with them. I don't. I don't know whether they gave them away, whether they kept them, I don't know. I know Martin Brighton had two cars at the time of the massacre, which both were originally. Well, well. That's two, not 30, Martin. Martin couldn't own a car because he didn't have a driver's license. Well, yeah, so he they were registered in his name. One of them was not the other one.

29:32 One of them wasn't registered. Helen was OK, but yeah, no, he didn't have a driver's license. But yeah, he had two cars at the time, which I understood were from Helen, but 30. 30 So yeah, I couldn't find what they did with them, but Can you imagine like and they were all brand new they just. They were just regular cars. It wasn't like they were going around buying like, you know, specifically. No, they were like Volvos and Commodores. There was not. I don't think there were any. It's not like they were like buying these hotted up collectibles.

29:57 No, no, they were just regular go down the local dealership and buy a car that you're gonna, you know, the family car it was. Yeah, yeah, OK. Interesting. And they'd, they'd eat out every day as well. Like they'd go to local restaurants and cafes and eat out every day. And the cafe owners, I think didn't really like it when they came around because they'd be wearing really odd clothes. They'd behave, they'd put people off, put other customers off because of the way they were dressed, the way they spoke, It was all just a bit odd.

30:27 Yeah, that's, that's really super weird. It's super, super weird. So Helen came to an untimely end because of at Martins hand. Well, it's actually never been proven. I mean we know this action, we know incidents like this had happened in the past. That's that's been proven. So they'd be driving along Country Rd. and Martin would yank the steering wheel and like, make Helen swerve off the road. So much so that she actually confessed to a friend that she'd never drive more than 60 kilometers an hour.

30:58 Because she was. She knew. He would potentially do that and this is that goes back to that sort of impulse control, not thinking through the consequences. That childlike brain just went adult body fun, Yeah. So unfortunately there was an incident where he's, well, this is what we think has happened, that he's done that and she's swerved and rolled the car and in that she died. Martin sustained some really pretty. Yeah, serious. Injuries at the time, yeah, he sustained a neck and a back injury. Again, don't know specifics, but he was in hospital for seven months after that.

31:35 Very extensive. Rehab stay. Yeah. Yep, Yep. So that's like, you know, that's horrible. So he's gone from living with this woman. She's, you know, she's kind of become his family. They're doing. They spent all day every. Day together. He's then gone through this hospital stint. He's come out the other side, the beneficiary, the sole beneficiary of Helen's fortune. Yeah. So I think it was something like $550,000 in cash, yes, plus all of her assets. I don't know how many cars they still had in their possession at the time, but the the house they also bought a farm.

32:12 Yeah, there's a farm, there's a couple of different properties. Currently there's a cottage. Yeah, a couple of properties. There was, yeah, the farm, 'cause he did end up selling that. Yes, I believe the assets were well over $1,000,000 in 1996. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of money. Yeah. And his mum and dad were quite sort of worried about that. Yeah. So they actually petitioned the state trustees to take over management of his money because they wanted this money to last him. Yeah, forever. For the rest of his life.

32:39 He'd had control over it. Well, for the for the very short period of time, he did have control over it. What was he buying? It's like bloody surfboards that cost, you know, so much money. Yeah. He didn't even surf. He never surfed. He liked the surfer boy image, and he'd popped the surfboard on the roof rack of his car. Tell everyone he was gonna go surfing. Yeah, but he'd just sit on the sand. Like, I don't think he ever got in the water. Didn't like being in the water. No, not just liked the look of it.

33:06 Yeah, yeah. So I don't know if I think did he have a boat? He had a dinghy like it was a blow up, like I think motorized, but like a blow up dinghy, right? Yeah, OK. Yeah. So he had, like he did buy things. He had a lot. Of and I guess his parents would have been like, this is not going to end well, Yeah. So good on them for doing that and for taking the responsibility away from themselves as well. It's not like they wanted to manage his money. No, it wasn't about them going oh, well, let's get a piece of this pie ourselves, because they were quite I think they weren't exactly, you know, they weren't on the bones of their butt, their butts either, like I think they would.

33:38 They were fine financially. So it wasn't that that would they would, you know, trying to get their hands on the money. It was about making sure that Martin had a, you know, a future and not going to just get rid of all this money straight away and just buy random things, which, I mean, Helen kind of instilled that in him. Really like, Yeah. So I think very well done on their behalf to do that. But yeah, it still meant that he had plenty of just, you know, cash just dispose of daily. Yeah. Yeah. He became more eccentric around this time, too, in the way that he dressed.

34:06 Yeah. And the way that he presented himself out in the community, which people then it just made people sort of, you know, more wary of him. He'd be wearing like cravats and bell bottom suits and top hats and just weird. Stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's imagine it's like, you know, it's when you think about your kid. And we used to walk out with them all wearing, you know, Spider Man costumes and stuff all the time and sit and have a coffee at the cafe with Captain America. Yeah. It's kind of that version of it, isn't it?

34:34 Like really in a bit, just in an adult version. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we're getting to the point now where Maurice was becoming more and more depressed, I think. So this is Martin's dad. He had been actively managing Martin for such a long time and I think it took its toll on him. He was increasingly dependent on alcohol and I believe other drugs, like I think he was on antidepressants. I degrade that, I think. Yeah, yeah. And so when he was helping out at the farm to were they was he getting ready, was Martin getting ready to sell it at that point or was that not, not yet?

35:14 Yeah, no, he sold the farm. Yeah, you mean so? So Maurice, in preparation to help him for that then, must have been around that time he went there on his own for a weekend to try and get stuff tidied up, I think. Yeah. And I guess at some point decided to take his own life. He put a weight belt around, like a diving belt around his neck and around his waist. He took out of a packet of 30 antidepressants. He took eighteen. I think they found alcohol in his system post mortem as well. And he went and drowned himself.

35:48 There were four dams on the property. He went and drowned himself in one of the dams. So what actually happened was somebody came to the farm looking for or was looking to buy something and knocked on the door. No answer. And then saw that there was a note pinned to the door and all it said was call the police. And so this young man called the police and it took the police two days to find him because they assumed he was on the property given the note. Yes. And he'd actually so Maurice the night before had actually phoned his wife and his daughter to say, well, basically his wife says Colleen said that it was a really strange phone call because she expected him to call and say, Yep, I've arrived.

36:33 But at the end of the phone call, he said, I love you. And she said he just never said that on the phone. And this the their daughter had a very similar story. So the police kind of I think knew that they were potentially looking for a body. And Yep, they found him in one of the dams. So again, another blow to Martin because really Maurice was his only ally. I think from look, it's hard to get a read on Colleen and where she was at at this time, but I really feel like she'd kind of potentially distanced herself a little bit from Martin because she just couldn't, she couldn't cope and and quite understandably.

37:14 Yeah, I got that vibe to you. It's never said anywhere or anything, but actually, because I actually started thinking, were her and Marie separated because the way things were written, it was at points where I kind of went, well, maybe they were like, because it was, it was Martin and Maurice and then there was Carlene. Like it was really, it was. There was a distance there for sure. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, they were still absolutely together. Yeah. But yeah, the way things, I don't know, just it's the way the vibe it sort of had around it was very separated.

37:42 Yeah. Yeah. Maurice was clearly the carer of Martin. It's really sad, but yes. And as you said, I feel like this was, well, in fact, it absolutely was another turning point, Yeah. For Martin. Well, they, yeah, they certainly believe that that was fairly much a trigger for what happened at Port Arthur. Yeah. He felt, Martin obviously felt very much like other people had taken his dad away from him, you know, and out of his life. There was obviously there was some other incidents where they, he sort of felt that people had maybe done the wrong thing by his dad.

38:12 And so that's where this all sort of triggered this action. Yeah. So one of those things that he felt really strongly about was that his dad wanted to buy a cottage, a holiday. Like an AB and BB. But just back in the 90s, yeah, just AB and B, like the regular style called Seascape, which was a, a beautiful spot down in, in not far from Port Arthur, on the highway into Port Arthur. And so his dad had wanted to purchase that. However, some other people didn't want to sell it. They wouldn't, they wouldn't sell no matter how much money he was offering them.

38:48 And So what truth is behind that in terms of? I actually thought that the place was on the market. Sorry, you're right, there was another. Place a little while to get the money together like he just didn't have enough liquid assets at the time and so this other couple Oh my gosh, I've written their names down. I can't believe I've just. It's a. Scared David and it's Sally, but she goes. Her real name is. I'll find it. It's in my notes somewhere. But they they bought the house sort of in the interim while Maurice was trying to get the money together for this house.

39:19 They just went in and bought it. And the real estate agent said, well, basically like you snooze, you lose. Yeah. Yeah. These people had the money ready to go. That's right. I sell it to them. Yes. So. Yeah. For the Martins was their surname. Yeah, I know that that was. Confusing, but yeah, they're the Martins and I'm fairly sure it's Sally. And but she had that was her like she went by Sally, but she had a full of something else. Yeah, yeah. So but there was another block of land even that they did own in the local area that that his dad wanted to purchase and that that's what they didn't they they wouldn't sell that.

39:50 There was basically no, we're not selling that. That's not for sale. So that was, there was another cottage not far from Seascape. And he was like, well, if I can't buy that because you've got in and purchased it, how about if I buy that off you and that way I can have one too? Yeah, but we weren't selling it. We don't want to sell it. No matter how much money you offer us, we don't want it. I see. Yeah, we want to keep that. So because there was, it was quite a stretch of land that they had in that area.

40:14 So, yeah, there was sort of those two hits, I think from that, from the same people for the that Martin really assumed that that was what triggered his their dad, his dad wanting to commit suicide. He sort of felt like that was the the nail in the coffin of like, well, if I can't have that land, then I'm really, you know, I'm no good 21. And that's why where the depression really hit hard. So whether that's why his dad was thinking or not, I mean, we'll never know. He didn't leave any more of a note other than call the police.

40:43 So you can only assume, and obviously that's what Martin has assumed, that's what his dad felt. And who knows really at the end of the day, but that is what they basically believe has triggered him to for the actions of the 28th of April. Yeah. So I guess we're. We're at the date we're. At that which is like full on. At the time, Martin had a girlfriend and she'd stayed the night the night before, and her account is that he set his alarm and she thought that was a bit weird because he set up for 6:30 in the morning.

41:13 Now he had no job, no responsibilities, no commitments, nothing to get up for. So she thought it was a bit weird they got up. Did you hear how old she was? His girlfriend. No, tell me. 16 so I think she may have even been 17 by the time this took place because they were together for about 8 months. I know she was definitely 16 when they first started dating and he was 27, so he was 28 when this occurred. So she maybe she had a birthday also. So maybe she was 17. But yeah. Wow, I did not know that actually.

41:41 All that poor girl. Wow. But apparently they had breakfast. They had some cereal, toast with honey and a cup of tea, had a shower and she went back to her place. She went to go see her parents. Yeah, and. Well, what happened next, Meg? So, yeah, the morning of was yeah. So he did quite a few things this morning after leaving the house. He went to first of all, he, he drove and went to like service station a number of places. And in that situation, he, he clearly had a bit of a plan in mind because.

42:16 I feel like he had a plan, but he didn't. He couldn't. It's like he remembered it one step at a time. Yep. And so like he went to two service stations. The first one he went, he bought a lighter. Which he he went in and then went do you sell lighters? Yeah, you do great. Then went back to his car and got the money to go in and buy the lighter like. Against that's a really like yeah, it's it's an odd. His whole actions throughout this, I mean, are odd, that's for sure. But yeah, he's it was quite methodical in what he was doing.

42:50 It was like almost like he mapped out every part of it. But one of his like, interactions in that morning, because so many people like, have been given, given evidence in terms of, well, not evidence because there wasn't a trial, but have given their side of the story to police that it's sort of he had these interactions which people noted they like, they remembered it because it was so odd. And one of them, he even said to a guy just about the day as he was chatting, he was like, well, you should go and have a coffee down at Port Arthur later.

43:16 Like, I just find that really creepy. That's that he knew like, and this is so this is prior to him getting anywhere near Port Arthur, which I mean, we're talking about trying. I was trying to actually look it up. I forgot to look it up how far he travelled exactly. But I. Think it was like 25 kilometers. Yeah, It wasn't next door, like it was a bit of a drive down the highway. He had to go. Yeah. And through past Eagle Hawk Neck and all that sort of thing, that it's quite a windy bit of Rd. It's quite on the coast.

43:42 So he obviously knew early on that's where his ultimate goal was, was to get to the cafe at Port Arthur. But for what reason other than what he had? Well, because he obviously had in his car already. He had his guns all in the car ready to go. So he'd like, I think the week before he'd gone to Maya, which is a department store, an Australian department store, with his girlfriend, and they bought a sport bag and he told her that he needed it for squash, even though he didn't play squash. Yeah, and he bought this bag and he was like, oh, it has to be able to hold a lot of weight.

44:16 And she sort of thought, oh, weird, but OK mate, OK, whatever. And so he bought this sports bag and then turns out that's what he used to carry the guns and ammunition for, for the. So he did this had been well like if you if you go by that at least a week in the planning. This is it, yeah. That he knew he was going to put his guns and things in the air. Yeah. To take wherever he was going to go. Yeah. So. But so after his stops along the way of the service stations, et cetera, he ended up at Seascape.

44:41 Now they. Like can I just just interject there for one SEC? Go for it. After stopping at the two petrol stations, he actually stopped at a supermarket and just bought tomato sauce. Yes. What was with that? And he, they even asked him about that in the police interviews. And he was like, I don't know. Like, yeah, he, he couldn't, he had no answer. No, I just bought tomato sauce. Like it was like there was no rhyme or reason for it. Like I can understand obviously at one of the petrol stations he bought gasoline, like the canister of gasoline, the other one, the lighter.

45:08 And we know he then used that in the, in the, in the sort of sequence of the crime. Yeah, tomato sauce. Yeah. I don't know. Was he thinking? Was I just? Yeah. Yeah, was he like I'm going to buy pie while I'm down there, but I there is no way I'm paying $0.20 for sauce. Well. They have the the cheap brand sauce. I want the real good stuff. Yeah, I don't know. Or my other thought was was he going to use it to, I don't know, fake something somewhere, I don't know, like use it as fake blood? That was my only other.

45:38 I hadn't thought about bringing. In the the bringing in the tomato sauce because I was like, well, that's weird. So weird. But I don't think you can ever understand how his brain works really fully. No, No. Yeah. So, yeah, after his odd purchases, he headed to Seascape, which is where the Martins were and were living. And that we believe that he entered that house and and he killed him at that that point. Yeah. So this was at 11:45 in the morning. Yeah. So to give you a bit of context on time, he shot the wife 1st and then he stabbed the husband to death.

46:17 Yeah, yeah. So that would they, he, they were, he's drawn pictures of this event he's done in in the police interviews etcetera and with his lawyer and all that sort of thing. He drew these pictures of what he did, which is something in that just oh, actually we'll go, I'll say it now. So the pictures he draws, there's these little stick figures and and drawings of what and very detailed drawings of the events of the day. And I would love a psychiatrist, psychologist, somebody to come and tell me the answer to this because it did just stand out to me.

46:45 It was never mentioned in one of the must have been the Channel Seven one, I think it was that I saw the pictures in. So when he draws himself at Port Arthur, he is black and all the victims that he draws are red. Now, to me that makes some sort of sense in terms of color coding of things, totally. The Martins. However, when he draws that scene, he is red and the Martins are black. I don't know. Psychologist hat, please bring it. Just going to Chuck that on quickly. Yeah, my very, very incredibly amateur psychologist.

47:14 Hat yeah, I've got my thoughts, but I want. Is it that he felt like he was a victim to the Martins? That's what that was my take of it. OK, I. Was like, and I'd love someone to tell me I'll get over your you know, you got no idea or Yep, you're on the money like I just it really stood out to me as I say, nothing was mentioned of it was just here are the pictures in the in the the the story that I was watching, but it just jumped off the page to me of like something out of me of like this real difference of.

47:40 He clearly, I mean, color, definitely, yeah. And he definitely felt like there were victims to this and that the Martins were like bad people because they'd taken his dad's dream away from him. Yeah, Yep. Yeah, I just found that. Really. Fascinating it is, anyway. So yeah, that's what so Seascape that's occurred. So they've already passed away, unfortunately, the mountains. He leaves Seascape and heads further down the road and heads towards Port Arthur. He arrives at Port Arthur at a roundabout.

48:10 It was around about 12/30, 12:45, I believe. Yeah, yeah. And he goes and sits. It goes into the, goes to the cafe there, the Broad Arrow Cafe. There's two cafes on the side. Have you been to Port Arthur? No, I never have. Have you? Yeah, I have. I, I went back in like 2008, I think I was there. OK. Yeah. So obviously after all of this occurred, which, you know, yes, because everyone, it's well, it's a tourist destination. And at that time purely a tourist destination in terms of it was the old penal colony.

48:35 It's fascinating to go and see the space. It's beautiful, you know, these ruins of buildings now that kind of you can go in and sort of get an idea of how they were used. It was obviously, you know that they used to send all the the real bad cooks down to Tassie and and to live there. It obviously doesn't operate anymore. Yeah, but it's beautiful like jetty and things where the you can catch a ferry in as well around from Hobart or you can come in via Rd. like it's it's a really picturesque place and very interesting to see.

49:01 Not a tourist, you know, not not saying like that's. Yeah. Anyway, I. Think, I mean it's a really popular part of Tasmania. I think it attracts something like 250,000 visitors a year. Yeah. Well, on the day there were about 500 people on site, which is a pretty average Sunday. Yep, viewing at that time and in that time it. Was a nice sunny day. It was about like 15 or 16° I think. So, you know, people were out and about wandering around, having a good look. Yeah. How much was the cafe? It was just the tail end of the lunchtime mad rush when he's arrived, so the cafe was still quite full and busy.

49:36 And he goes in and orders himself a coffee and something to eat and goes and sits outside with his big bag, his big sports bag with him. He sits down outside and people will say that he sat there and sort of almost talked to himself, like talking to other people, like sort of been talking to himself. And he commented on Wasps that they weren't that were there were there were lots of Wasps around or either there weren't enough Wasps around. There's a lot of Wasps around today. What a Wasps around today.

50:01 Yep, and also he commented around that there weren't many Japanese tourists on at the site at the time. And this and the the reason this is quite significant really is that his girlfriend also commented to the police that he he often spoke about Wasps and Japanese tourists. They were topics of conversation that were quite obsessive to him. So clearly a glink there if this was, this is who he was, who it was that was there. Just really quickly a WASP is a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant. I thought you meant Wasps as in like European Wasps as in no.

50:32 I read that inclined entirely wrong then, did I? Yep, I thought he meant Wasps as in genuine Wasps. No, no. No, like he he was against Protestants for some reason. Oh yeah. OK, how naive of me. I know I've I've got the Japanese tourists one, but I resumed that he meant genuine, like insects. No, There you go. Yeah, but they were definitely. But Topics, I think there was, yeah, I think there was a a patron at the Broad Arrow Cafe who survived. And he said he'd heard him make this comment. I think he's the one who actually said in his statement that Martin had said, oh, there's a lot of Wasps around today.

51:08 And he thought the same thing. He thought, oh, Wasps like, oh, it's cool. It's a cool day. Like, I don't think Wasps are around at this time of year. Yeah. And then it wasn't until a lot later that, you know, gathering the back story and all of that, he said it was years and years later that he was like, oh, right. That's where he was going with that. Interesting. I don't know how you can tell by looking at someone that they're a Protestant, but OK. I know lost on that one. Yeah, OK, cool. Anyway.

51:37 All right, moving on. So he's finished his coffee and his food and has walked himself back into the cafe. And unfortunately, this is where he sits down at a table in the cafe, casually opens his bag and pulls out. Now I'm going to pull this out because I'm not a gun person. I. Think we said this in our last episode too. I've got no idea. I had to write. I had to write it down as well. And even if we wrote it down, I had to like, yeah. Well even I don't even know how to read it because I know he had he had three guns in the bag the and what he pulled out first was the Colt AR 15.223 semi automatic rifle.

52:14 Yes, he also had in the bag an SLR semi automatic .3 O 8 rifle, a semi automatic Daewoo 12 gauge shotgun and this blows my mind. 150,000 rounds of ammunition. Any wonder he needed a really strong bag? Yeah, I can't. How heavy would 150,000 rounds be? I kind of imagine how heavy the three guns would have been. Little on the ammunition. Yeah, that's surely. He couldn't have carried that all in one bag. Don't. That blew my mind when I read that number like. I read that, I read that same number and I was like, well, maybe that's a typo.

52:49 This is it was it was that I read it in multiple places that I went. 15,000 rounds, you would think is a lot. Yeah. And where did he, where did he get all of this ammunition? Well, I mean, it's I guess it's why what happened afterwards is the right decision, because how come someone can access that much ammunition? Who's letting someone purchase that amount to go? Yeah, that seems legit. Sure, sure, sure. Why not? You need that Any any farmer needs that many rounds anyway. God, sorry, pulls out his AR15 and starts to shoot now I won't go through.

53:24 Exactly the events of who was shot at when and all that. So because as we say, you can literally go to Wikipedia and it goes through shot by shot. But something that really stood out to me was that there was 29 rounds fired in the cafe in approximately 90 seconds. And those 29 rounds he killed 20 people which just apps. Absolutely blows my mind. And seriously injured 15. Yeah, and the people who were injured because the apparently that shotgun can fire up to 600 meters away like the a distance. Of 600.

54:03 Meters. And this is in a tiny little cafe, like it looks from the photos I've seen, it looks really small. A lot of the injuries and even some of the deaths were because the bullets had ricocheted off like other people. Other people or other Yeah, like walls. And I was actually reading the transcript from the court hearing when he plead guilty and they were going through like that. There was, I think it was it started out as 70 odd counts, right? But what they all they decided between the judge and the lawyers was that because many of the counts were like one, what they called one action with multiple effects.

54:42 So, so then they what they did was for legal reasons, whatever, they narrowed down how many counts he was going to be charged with, convicted of, because and instead of naming it as saying there was one cause, but there was, you know, multiple counts, it became a single count with multiple. OK, sure. So as in like the one bullet that might have, like, killed somebody and then and injured someone else? Someone else? Yes, As that was counted as one sort of one count, one event. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah.

55:14 And there was a legal reason why they needed to do that. Sure. But, yeah, because I, I don't know, I, I can't remember exactly what the, the judge, it's all in the transcript as to why the judge decided to do that. And the lawyers did all agree that. Yeah, that's, that's yeah, that's why it should be done. Yeah. So it was more counts that he originally was charged with. But by the time they got to conviction, they actually narrowed it down. I think there was about eight or nine incidences of where it was one person, one shot, but one killed and one injured.

55:43 Like kind of. Situation. OK, I see. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. God, just sickening. I mean, these people had nowhere to go. They were trapped in this space with a huge rifle that he had. I know that people have sort of said I had to have been some sort of really great shot to have killed that many people that quickly. But in that small space, I mean, many of these hits were so close range they had no chance whatsoever. They were trapped. Rats literally. Absolutely. People were trying to get out and they were locked doors and things, you know, just part of part of being in businesses and things like that.

56:19 And you know, and trying to get out just would have been absolutely horrific. I can't even imagine. There were people further away from the cafe who were hearing these gunshots who then were like, what is that? Some people thought that it was a show like that. They were, you know, re reenacting things from the penal colony back in the day and started heading towards the gunshots. Because we live in a fairly peaceful society, generally speaking, so that you know, the naivety of like walking towards it to go, oh, what's interesting and happening.

56:50 And then they realized that this was not OK and had to then exit and get out. So and he headed from the cafe to a gift shop. Again, very small space shot more people there headed out from the cafe and the gift shop and towards there were coaches of buses parked up. From hiding behind the coaches to kind of take shelter. Everyone trying to hide, everyone trying to, you know, he entered onto the buses. There was coach drivers who were shot and killed doing their job like just Yeah, I read an. Account I read an account of a family who hid under the jetty and the the now woman, but she was a young child at the time.

57:29 She said she remembers looking at her dad's hand and all of his hair was standing up on end and his hand was shaking. And she said that's when she knew that something like really, really, really bad was happening because she'd never seen her dad in that state before or since. Like, you just can't imagine the terror that those people would have felt. There's another account of a, a survivor who was in the cafe at the time. And he just played dead on the floor. And Martin Bryant stepped over him twice.

58:00 And he thought, he said both times. I he said, for I just had the most peaceful feeling come over me because I'd resolved myself to the fact that I was going to die God, and he didn't. So Martin must have believed he was dead and stepped over in both times and like, but you can't imagine that terror that that man now has lived with for his the rest of his entire life. He was interviewed not that long ago and he said that he still can't sleep properly. He still has flashbacks. He's a much older gentleman now.

58:31 This will never end for them, No. And I, I saw an interview of two women who obviously survived, but both their husbands were killed. And they, they both witnessed each other's situation. They had, they never knew each other at the time, but they're now very close because they both had the similar situation of their husbands protecting them and who who died. You know, it's just. Heartbreaking. I've got goosebumps talking about this. It's so horrible. It's horrible, yeah. And to be honest, we haven't got to the worst of it yet.

59:01 No, this is the bit that I found. I mean, all of this is so horrible to think about and look into, but I think it's really important to keep these people's memories alive because so many people were brave in these situations, like those two husbands who were sheltering their wives. Like, what an absolutely heroic act for them. The next, I guess Martin got back in his car after he obviously decided I, I don't know whether this was in his plan. Who knows? We we won't know, but he gets back in his car and starts driving back up the driveway out of Port Arthur.

59:34 Yeah, which apparently he as he was driving out, he's honking his horn and yelling and just firing shots out of the car too. Yeah. So even if people are thinking like there was the people in Port Arthur around the cafe and every area there and the coaches who are now reeling from his destruction, if you're in any way thinking we're safe now, he made sure people didn't feel safe at any point with that. He he was. It's that nuisance like that menace kind of attitude like he was. He didn't give a fuck or he couldn't, couldn't think further than what he was doing in that instance or but as he was going back up the road, a mother and her two daughters, well, she stopped him because she thought he was fleeing.

1:00:17 She had run 6. 100 metres thinking to try and get away from where the. Three was and a six year old. He stopped and he killed the mother first, then the three-year old. The six year old was hiding behind a tree and he haunted her down and murdered her too. So this was Alana and Madeleine Mikak and their mother and their father Walter Mikak subsequently started the Alana and Madeleine Madeleine Foundation, which look in the in the events that unfolded in Port Arthur on the day. I think this is 1 positive that's potentially come out of it is this foundation.

1:01:02 It's horrible that it even had to come to. Free to exist, It's. Yeah. But you know, it still exists to this day and it's going stronger than stronger than ever. And you know, hats off to to Walter being left without his daughters and his wife to start such a legacy for them. And I think everyone in Australia knows the Alana and Madeleine Foundation. It's everywhere. Yeah, there's a lot of schools that use their E smart program. So basically the idea of the foundation is to protect children from violence.

1:01:31 And so they they have a buddy program where they you buy a buddy bag. And so to set up children who come from traumatized backgrounds, etcetera, to have the things they need to go to school. They do all sorts of amazing work for children. So I mean, huge, huge kudos to Walter to come out of that situation, which I can't even imagine his his grief. I can't. It just breaks me. I think that's the moment of all of this where Martin Bryant is the most evil human being to be able to close range, do that to a child.

1:02:09 Two children I just and the fact that he haunted Alana. Not, not to just he wasn't in any way in any sort of rush to get away from there. That's he was. He was there to absolutely destroy the world. Yeah. After his evil knew no bounds. Like if you're if you're able to do that to a child, what? Does. You're not. Human. No, absolutely not. It's absolutely disgusting. So yeah. So he's left Port Arthur now by this point, Yeah. And he ends up, I think, OK, so this this bit, he's basically driving out and he gets to another service station, does he?

1:02:50 Or was it a toll booth? Toll booth, Yeah. I I just couldn't remember what was. There, that stopped at. Yeah, it was the toll booth. Could you pay to come, Eddie? Could you come into the area to the tourist attraction? Like. Yeah. And there's the toll booth on the way out that he's again shot more people. Yeah, and he actually. So he took a hostage at that point too. That could have been the service station. I changed cars, yeah. So from the toll roof then to the service station where I believe there was four people I think in the car 3/4.

1:03:19 I think initially there were three in the first car, but then he, I think he murdered all them. Yeah. Did he? And then because he then there was a fourth that he took hostage. Yeah. Is that right? So we got boyfriend and girlfriend couple. He murdered the girlfriend after torturing her for a bit. Like it was like, will I kill her? Will I kill her? Will I kill her? Won't I kill her? There was like something going on there. Really, really fucking fun. He then at at gunpoint, puts the boyfriend in the boot.

1:03:50 So yeah, he'd switched into their car, puts him in the boot, and then he drives back to to. Seascape, Seascape. Even on the way into Seascape though, there was actually the there was an incident in Tasmania where a lot of police had been called to. There were only two police officers available in the area, which says a lot about this, the demographic of the area too. So these two cops very smartly decided to travel. They were getting the calls, obviously people calling in for triple O like, you know, madly.

1:04:19 So they dispersed from where they were in two separate vehicles, which I think was very intelligent, the two of them. The rule of policing is that you never travel alone. But in this situation that when there were only two cops available, they decided to take two, two different routes to get to where they were heading towards to make sure they're covered all bases. And so when they did arrive though, and they got to Seascape, I think, I believe they're sort of, it's really hard to tell the timing from what was what I've been reading.

1:04:45 But from what I can gather, when they've arrived and found where Mount Martin is at Seascape, they have tried to ambush him a little bit, but they've ended up in a ditch to escape him shooting at them. And they were stuck in that ditch for hours. He would literally like pop them anytime they moved or tried to like get out of there. He would fire shots off it at them, which that long as we're saying that long range rifle that he had, he could shoot them from all sorts of, you know, from anywhere to try and hit them.

1:05:14 And he had, he did have a scope on it. Yeah. So they don't really know. They don't know the extent of his ability with the rifle either of like how if he did have the skills to be able to, you know, sight and aim and get from that far away or exactly how far away he even was because they couldn't if they stuck their head up, banged, they'd shoot at them. So I can't imagine that either. Like they had to sit it out for so long. But they were able to radio to their control like their boss. But yeah, because by this stage, you know, they've they've got on the radio to Victoria and there's people, there's the special operations unit coming over.

1:05:48 Yeah, which are in Essendon Airport within 40 minutes or something of like in an aeroplane. Yeah, within 40 minutes, which is only like a. Half hour flight down from Melbourne to to Tassie. Yeah. So they were there pretty quickly. When you think you know that to bring in, you know the, you think you know Tassie, this island that's far away, but it's not that far, really. Yeah. Did you see an interview with the special operations officers? I listened to the podcast version of that. What's it called?

1:06:15 I was actually there. Yeah. It's a really good series. It's. An ABC series, it's phenomenal. There's lots of different. Yeah, I believe that was like episode. One, it was episode one. Yeah, it's it's really brilliant. And I highly recommend people go and look at it because it really gives a human element to all of this. Yeah. What lovely men. Just incredible men. But he said that I found this actually very funny. He said they had no jurisdiction in Tasmania, so when they arrived they had to be sworn in.

1:06:43 Yeah, and they couldn't find a Bible anywhere haha lol. And so he's like, oh, just get a phone book. It's got all the same letters and numbers in. It I love their enthusiasm. Now let's just get this done like so we can get into there and count these people like. That was and they knew exactly what they were doing. They were trained for this, yes. Not that we'd ever seen anything like this in Australia up until that point, but thank God they were trained. And you know, I think what incredible human beings they were, they, you know, set up a post, they got to, got to work.

1:07:13 This particular officer, he said at the end of all of it, when it was all wrapped up, he rang his mum and his mum said why don't you just shoot him? And he said because I'm not, I'm not like him. I'm not as bad as him. That would make me just as bad as him if I were to shoot him. And that was the thing their rule is that they, I mean with it legal, their legal bound of what they are down to do. They're only allowed to make that shot if someone's being directly threatened or if he's aiming and shooting at them.

1:07:40 So they followed all the protocols and the laws around what they can do. And, you know, that's what they, yeah, they stuck to that because I'm sure plenty of people would have just pot shop bang, like gone. But yeah. So this siege, I guess, happened like overnight. So the police didn't know. They assumed he had a hostage. In fact, they knew he'd taken at least one person from the service station. They didn't know. They thought he they that he had three hostages. Well, he told them they had three because, well, they knew that the the Martins were in there, but they didn't have no idea if they were alive or dead.

1:08:17 That's right. So, but and so he did say to the cops that he wanted them to, he would take one hostage with them and he wanted a helicopter to go to Adelaide. Why Allen, Adelaide. But anyway, who wants to go to Adelaide? Don't come for me. Yeah. So he want he wanted to take one hostage with him to Adelaide and the other, he'd let the other two hostages go, but they were already dead. Dead. It all sort of, I mean overnight, you know, these officers were at the command post. You know what what one of the officers said was they were a bit close to start with, so they decided to move a kilometre back up the road.

1:08:48 The real specialists in this kind of situation rocked up and went, I think we might move the command center back just because he started shooting at them, I think from there and he could. Have gotten them like it was within firing. Yes. So luckily the specialists came in. Yeah, yeah, guys. I think yeah, not right. Yeah, but they were there until like 7:30 in the morning when they actually started to see smoke coming from the house, which is some. Pretty odd things overnight though, too, like, and this guy was so interesting listening to him saying like how it like literally they will lay there in their filth, their own filth to like, just focus on like through that site on what his job is.

1:09:24 Yeah. And so they could see him doing various things throughout the night, even though we're talking hundreds of metres away. Yeah. But they knew he knew what he was doing. But he did some very odd things overnight, like, yeah, did you read what I read what went on overnight? I have a vague idea. Yeah. Do you want to get into it? No. You go. Oh, he he just did a lot of strange, strange things. He at what point? At what point do you think he. So do you think he killed Greg? I think was the name of the hostage.

1:09:58 Is that right? Mr. Peers? Mr. Peers? Yeah, I think he was. I don't know. I don't know when he would have done that. Like at what point, whether, Because The thing is he, he simply had no control over himself. There were plenty of gunshots firing at the police, et cetera, that at some point they couldn't pinpoint. You know, we're hearing a gunshot go off. To know that that's when he would have killed him. That's right. There's no way of telling that. I I honestly think that he's probably done that pretty early on.

1:10:23 I I don't know that. I suspect so as well, yeah. Depending on like what leverage he thought he had. But I mean. Again, he always knew he was gonna kill him. Yeah, exactly. We're talking about, you know, someone's brain that we really can't. There's not that ability to. He didn't. Plan. No, I don't think one step ahead. No, I don't know that he knew from what he was going to do from that point on. He was. Doing weird stuff like through the windows and like he was popping his head up and. Doing some he was taunting them and everything very odd, odd things.

1:10:53 I did read that he was naked running around and stuff. He. Was naked when he came out of the house once. So at sort of 7:30 in the morning, the police see smoke billowing out from the house. And I think actually they'd, they'd had phone contact with him as well. So the, the cordage had a cordless phone only. And he was, you can listen to the actual recordings of the phone calls on yes online. And he's just having these regular old chats with the police officers and they're like, so who have you got there with you and what are they doing?

1:11:24 And have you fed them? And how much water have you had to drink today? And just like, really? Trying to calm keep. Trying to keep the situation under control, yeah. But at some point the cordless handset, the battery died. He never redocked. It they tried to get him to dock it that many times, he would not do it. And so once the battery went dead, they had no more communication into the house. And that obviously put them into sort of even more of a hyper vigilant mode. Yeah. 7:30 in the morning, they see smoke billing out of the house.

1:11:55 And Martin Bryant, well, the the special operations, the Victorian special operations cop says I could tell it was a male because I saw his genitalia running at me. So he was naked when he ran out of the house. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I believe potentially covered in his own filth as well, like. He was, Yeah. Yeah. I didn't hear that. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, what? I don't know what he was thinking. Or what was going on in that house for that time. So just horrific. Horrific. Yeah, stuff. Yeah.

1:12:27 Sorry, the man's name was Glenn, not Greg Glenn. Yeah, Glenn Pears. Yeah. Yeah. So Martin sustained some fire injuries, like some burns, no gunshot wounds at all to his body, which, as I said, goes to the integrity of the police officers who were managing that that scene. To this day, the motives are not clear. We have no idea why Martin Bryant did this. No, why he went to Port Arthur, we don't know. He was at one point banned from Broad Arrow Cafe because he just, he was weird and he would, he would make patrons feel like really uncomfortable.

1:13:07 And so they'd banned him before. So they don't know whether or not. And he used to walk his family dogs around Port Arthur, right, for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours on end and to the point where he was like an absolute nuisance. And the security guards who were there would say to him, come on, mate, it's time to move on. Like, you've been walking around the gardens for, you know, the grounds for hours. So maybe he had, like, a weird fascination with the place. I really don't know.

1:13:33 Or was it more to do with Japanese tourists and Wasps that he had some sort of weird obsession with? I don't know. I think he I know about the fact that he knew it was a place where there was going to be a lot of people in a small space. Yeah, I. Don't know what else was it about that place that he chose it. Don't know when he was interviewed by police. It's disgusting. The interview is awful. He laughs. He looks disinterested. Yeah, they say to him, you know, you murdered 35 people. And he goes, that's sad, isn't it?

1:14:04 That's horrendous. Yeah, there's a real disconnect there and a real like, I mean, you see them mentally, not mental or else he doesn't have mental, mental, intellectual disability. You kind of see they're that disconnect. He's absolutely got a mental illness as well. Yeah, I think that that's probably, yeah, you're probably right. But like there was one moment where he he thinks the cameras off. Yeah. And he says, guess you will find the person who who did this. Me like, yeah, it's really. And then like, and the guy goes and then he sort of says to the cop, you know, he probably should have your cameras on for that, you know, and the cops, like we do actually still have the cameras running.

1:14:40 And you can see this look on his face kind of change of like, oh, crap. Yeah, yeah. He also says to them, he's like, you see, if people didn't do these unfortunate things, you guys wouldn't have a job. I find that so interesting because the cop really literally just goes, you're not wrong. And and The thing is, it's not like these cops do this job because, oh, they want people to do these actions. A world where we don't need police to investigate these things would be amazing. Yes, but unfortunately there are people that commit these horrendous acts.

1:15:11 Although I mean, there was a massive reduction after this because I mean, OK, I think 2 positive things came out of this. The first positive thing being the Alana and Madeleine Foundation. Yeah. And the second positive thing being gun reform in Australia. It was public outrage at the time. How did this person get these guns? How did he buy all this ammunition? Our Prime Minister at the time was John Howard and he really took immediate action on this. Immediate like within 12 days, Yep of this occurring, Yep, he was like on it and said this has got us, this cannot happen.

1:15:42 Yeah, so he instigated a buy a buyback scheme. Yep. And there's images online as well of this and I actually remember this as a kid. Mm hmm. Of 10s of thousands of guns getting crushed. So basically the government would give you had to surrender your weapons. So this was semi automatic rifles? Certain ones that were listed, yeah. And then they also change the laws around how do you can access guns. So it's not doesn't mean people do not own guns in Australia. Yeah, people own guns, but you need to have a legitimate reason and also meet criteria to be able to own a gun.

1:16:13 And also, you can't just go out and buy one. There's nice waiting of criteria. There's waiting periods. Yeah, you have to have them stored appropriately. Yeah. There's lots and lots of conditions that need to be met now in order for an Australian person or Australian resident to acquire a gun. Mm. Hmm. It really changed the landscape of our nation in that way. So in the lead up in the preceding 18 years to Port Arthur, there had been 13 mass shootings in Australia, a mass shooting being of four or more people since 1996.

1:16:46 In this gun reform we have not had well actually. Depends on how you. It depends on how it's defined. Defined because if it call it, if it's family within a household, then there's more, but if it's public, yeah, there's none. Yeah, zero. So we don't have the school shootings etcetera that America have on a regular basis. Yeah, I have to say, like I'm not a big one on politics and politicians, right. But this is one act that a politician did that is. So I feel like has impacted our society in such a positive way that John Howard is like the only Prime Minister that I really connect with in terms of that.

1:17:22 I have a whole lot of respect for any other politician, you know. Take them or leave them. Take them or leave them. Like I couldn't care less. But yeah, John Howard to the point where I remember being, it would have been in 2006, I think. Yeah. Commonwealth Games. So this is well past 10 years past this all occurring. Yep. I was at the Commonwealth Games and he just happened. I was coming out of the hockey and he was going into the netball sort of stuff. And I realized from that the crowd was gathering kind of thing, that somebody was around and kind of like, oh, yeah, celebrity, whatever, all that kind of thing.

1:17:52 And then when I realized it was John Howard, I was like, no, gone over. I shook his hand. And it's one at the moment where I kind of go, I'm really proud of Australia to make those decisions. And that this man was the one who did that, that I, I really resonate with him in terms of that way that I was like, no, this is someone I want to shake a hand off. And I do. I always think of that moment like that. We are so lucky to live in Australia where we do have strict gun laws because to send my kids to school in America, I don't think I could.

1:18:20 I couldn't. I absolutely couldn't. But I agree with you and all of the things that you were saying. Although I would like to attack John Howard's eyebrows with some eyebrows. That's you and your eyebrows situation. See I can see the difference in the videos. Lack of care of eyebrows for eyebrows. And look, he, he was a bit of a bit of embarrassing, you know, you would watch some interviews with him and you think, oh. God, yeah. And there's certain things about him that. Oh. Yeah, he. Did do, but this was one thing.

1:18:49 God. He was our Prime Minister at the time, I think. Our Prime Minister could have done what he did, No, Because I mean, there's images of gun nut people, you know, with him, with a bulletproof vest on, with them protesting around what he was doing. I mean, I have to say the Venn diagram of gun nuts and conspiracy theorists, well, it's like a full circle. I. Was going to do that fully over. That what is with that? Yeah. So I mean, he did something that. I mean, I know in America they've tried a number of times to bring these things, you know, and try and do it in ways because they never get anywhere because no.

1:19:22 It's their Second Amendment, right. If you want to go a little deeper into this, there's some really, really good stuff out there. Yeah, In particular, there is a John Oliver Peace. So he's a British journalist, essentially. He's a comedian as well, but he interviews American parliamentarians or whatever about gun rights. Yeah. And then he interviews Australians. So he interviews John Howard. He interviews a politician from Queensland who basically sacrificed his entire career to support John Howard's reform.

1:19:56 And the juxtaposition is incredible. Yeah, the Americans lack. Yeah. Yeah, totally. We should. 100% have our right and we we shouldn't have to wait even an hour to get a gun if we want to buy a gun, that's our right to buy a gun yeah, I know this is getting a little political now but it is a really interesting thing so just Google John Oliver gun reform and watch it's a three-part little mini yeah mini series go and watch it he's. Just so old with that stuff I like. You enjoy it? Yeah, it's really good.

1:20:26 Another thing is what what we were talking about before he's watching. I was actually there on the ABC. That is an awesome series as well. And the other thing that I watched to sort of that was entertaining and it wasn't it was based on truth, but it was a dramatization. It's called Night Tram, which is Martin backwards and he used to be teased and that was sort of like a nickname that kids called him when he was younger. Another really good little mini series to watch if you want to sort of look at more about Martin's early life and what led up to Port Arthur.

1:21:01 The actual Port Arthur massacre isn't sort of part of that series, but there's so much information out there about this and you know, everything that's happened in Australia since with thanks to the gun reforms. Yeah, I think between, you know, gun reforms, which I think we've got right in Australia now what we need to get right is mental health and also diagnosing and etcetera of these disorders in people correctly, then we might be able to intervene better with these. And yet earlier, like, I mean, it's not to say that just because you behave oddly that you're going to be a person who's going to murder someone or, you know, commit a complete massacre, but that is one way of preventing horrific things that can occur.

1:21:45 And so I think we're, you know, slowly, slowly getting there. As we say, we're definitely our generate our kids generation are better again at accepting people and making sure that then that then mental health isn't impacted by difference. Yeah, that way we've got a long way to go through still. Agreed. Yeah, agreed. Just in closing, I think for us as Australians, this was sort of nation defining the fact that we had these nationwide gun reforms following this horrific event that is so, so etched into the minds of all Australians.

1:22:16 I know homicides using guns have been decreased by 60%. Suicides using guns have like basically dropped off. Yeah. And we, as we said before, there haven't been any publicly mass shootings since. So thank God we live where we live. Oh yeah, definitely, definitely. It's something that, yeah, I'm very proud of Australia for. Me too. Yeah, that's probably a good note to leave it on. Do you have any shout outs for this week, Meg? Well. There is one actually. What's that on YouTube? It was a person by the name of I've got a Mayor Rice, I believe it was.

1:22:53 She's been commenting a fair bit on our YouTube clip of the Meninders brothers. It was has been released recently. And so it was loving that the comments are coming through and chatting back and forth. Love that, love it. Yeah, love it. So please keep keep commenting and give us a like and a follow and a chat. We're more than happy to engage on social media for sure. You know, drop us a line on Instagram, YouTube, TikTok. TikTok, yeah, any of the any of the socials we're out there. Yeah. But yeah, if you can hit that follow or subscribe button on whatever podcast app you're using to listen to us, that also helps us out to to make sure that we're getting out there to more people.

1:23:30 So thank you everyone for everyone who's who's done that so far. But yeah, join us for the next one. You know, come and join us that next one by hitting that follow button. Yeah, sounds great. Yeah. All right. Well, have a great week everybody, and thanks again for joining me. See everyone, bye. Stay curious, crying besties.